/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 30 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:37] <yuhong> <Hixie> espadrine: version-driven conditionals are an antipattern on the web, because implementations don't implement versions atomically
  10. # [00:38] <yuhong> Yea, anyone remember IE6 vs IE7 vs IE8 vs IE9 "standards" mode and X-UA-Compatible?
  11. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> That's a separate issue.
  12. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> There you're talking about versions of the browser, not the standard.
  13. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> IE's X-UA-Compatible does make sense and can be useful, although whether it's ultimately a good idea is debatable.
  14. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> In contrast, asking whether a browser implements a particular version of a spec is almost always useless, because browsers don't implement specs completely all at once.
  15. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> They implement pieces over time, plus the spec changes over time.
  16. # [00:40] <yuhong> I wonder what if IE9 defaulted to IE8 standards mode for the HTML 4.01/XHTML 1.0 DOCTYPEs.
  17. # [00:40] <_bga> its like dll version
  18. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> So you want to know whether it supports the piece you're trying to use, not whether it supports the whole standard.
  19. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> yuhong, why would they want to do that? The whole point of IE9 standards mode is that pages written for other browsers should work in IE9 without much modification, ideally without any modification.
  20. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> IE8's JavaScript support is such that no nontrivial JS written for other browsers will work in IE8.
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  22. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> Which is not the case for IE9. I don't know how compatible it is exactly, but I know I've had to make basically no IE9-specific changes to the large complicated JS tests and so on I've been writing lately.
  23. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> And where I have, it's mostly in cases where the feature wasn't specified to start with (i.e., execCommand() or Selection.extend()).
  24. # [00:43] <AryehGregor> Although there are some exceptions. Like nodes that have a null parent but non-null nextSibling . . .
  25. # [00:49] <yuhong> Good point, this reminds me that most of the differences between IE7 and IE8 standards mode has to do with CSS.
  26. # [00:50] <yuhong> Which also reminds me that IE7 standard mode was mostly hacks on top of IE6 standards mode, while IE8 standards mode seems like a rewrite.
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  29. # [00:53] <aho> IE7 = IE6 + png, background-attachment:fixed, + and > combinators (buggy), attribute selectors (buggy), and uhm... that's about it
  30. # [00:53] <aho> they also fixed some bugs and added a few new ones
  31. # [00:54] <aho> IE8 on the other hand is almost usable (if you aren't asking for too much)
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  33. # [00:56] <aho> IE6+7 are almost extinct in germany :)
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  35. # [00:56] <aho> they got about 3% combined
  36. # [00:56] <jcranmer> my old workplace still uses IE 6
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  39. # [00:57] <yuhong> <aho> they also fixed some bugs and added a few new ones
  40. # [00:57] <yuhong> What really caught me was the similarities of the bugs.
  41. # [00:57] <aho> yea, IE6+/ are very similar
  42. # [00:58] <aho> *7
  43. # [00:59] <aho> they really only patched some things and they did a pretty bad job at it
  44. # [01:00] <yuhong> While IE8
  45. # [01:00] <yuhong> While IE8's CSS has a few bugs, most of them are not even close to similar to IE7's CSS bugs.
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  48. # [01:02] <aho> CSS 1.0 does indeed work pretty well with IE8
  49. # [01:02] <aho> about damn time, i'd say :>
  50. # [01:02] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: IE9 still has issues with browser-sniffing assuming IE is broken.
  51. # [01:02] <yuhong> But that is the website
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  53. # [01:02] <yuhong> But that is the website's fault, of course.
  54. # [01:02] <zewt> i'm not sure that's IE9 having issues :P
  55. # [01:03] <gsnedders> No, but people blame the browser if a site doesn't work. Same issue with Opera going down IE codepath which happens on a number of sites…
  56. # [01:03] * miketayl_r is now known as miketaylr
  57. # [01:04] <zewt> still doesn't mean it's the browser having issues
  58. # [01:04] <yuhong> Fortunately IE8 and later has compatiblity mode.
  59. # [01:04] <yuhong> Which emulates IE7.
  60. # [01:05] <gsnedders> zewt: Ultimately in some cases if it is a major site then you have a hard choice as a browser vendor, whether to monkey-patch it in the browser.
  61. # [01:05] <zewt> and ... risk breaking things when they fix their site, heh
  62. # [01:07] <gsnedders> zewt: Indeed. But when jQuery/Dojo/etc. all have browser sniffing in them, you often have a hard choice to make when fixing spec bugs that break those libraries. Breaking one of those library will break thousands of sites and the amount of evangelism work needed is massive…
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  64. # [01:09] <yuhong> gsnedders: That is why tying your site to a specific version of these libraries is bad idea.
  65. # [01:10] <gsnedders> yuhong: But when there are backwards incompatible changes often in those libraries…
  66. # [01:11] <yuhong> For example, to view this in IE9, I had to manually hack the markup to use the latest jQuery:
  67. # [01:11] <yuhong> http://berjon.com/blog/2010/09/bouncy.xhtml
  68. # [01:19] <yuhong> AFAIK I think IE6 had OK support for CSS1, and it was released in a time when CSS 2.1 did not exist at all.
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  71. # [01:19] <yuhong> They introduced DOCTYPE switching in IE6.
  72. # [01:20] <aho> background-attachment:fixed from CSS 1.0 was missing
  73. # [01:20] <aho> if it weren't for all those bugs, it would have been kinda neat
  74. # [01:20] <yuhong> Then IE stagnated for five years, and guess what people did with IE6 in "standards" mode in these five years.
  75. # [01:20] <aho> well, to be honest, IE6 was pretty damn good back then
  76. # [01:20] <aho> in 2001
  77. # [01:20] <aho> :>
  78. # [01:21] <yuhong> Leading to X-UA-Compatible.
  79. # [01:22] <yuhong> aho: That is why I said *OK* CSS1 support.
  80. # [01:25] <yuhong> No browser actually fully complied with CSS 2.0 even today, and CSS 2.1 did not exist back in 2001.
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  84. # [01:31] <gsnedders> IIRC IE5/Mac introduced DOCTYPE sniffing, not IE6/Win.
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  88. # [01:32] <Yuhong> <gsnedders> IIRC IE5/Mac introduced DOCTYPE sniffing, not IE6/Win.
  89. # [01:32] <Yuhong> Yea, I always wondered why they did not port Tasman to Windows.
  90. # [01:32] <Yuhong> BTW.
  91. # [01:33] <gsnedders> Yuhong: I believe there was a Windows port.
  92. # [01:33] <Yuhong> Where?
  93. # [01:34] <gsnedders> Yuhong: There were some unreleased previews of various technologies using it, IIRC
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  95. # [01:35] <Yuhong> Anyway: http://cwilso.com/2010/04/30/the-ie-plateau-a-history-lesson/#comment-1424
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  99. # [01:40] <Yuhong> AFAIK it is like the IE7 team used the examples at positioniseverything.net to determine if the bugs has been "fixed".
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  101. # [01:43] <Yuhong> And CSS is not the only example BTW. Guess why in IE7 the contents of an object element do not show up in the DOM unless fallback is needed??
  102. # [01:43] <Yuhong> Clue
  103. # [01:43] <Yuhong> Clue: IE7 introduced proper support for nested object elements?
  104. # [01:43] <Yuhong> Clue: IE7 introduced proper support for nested object elements.
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  156. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> Is there a bugzilla for bugzilla?
  157. # [06:18] <MikeSmith> nm
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  162. # [06:28] <othermaciej> hi MikeSmith
  163. # [06:28] <othermaciej> I think there is a bugzillza^2, yeah
  164. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> hey hey
  165. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> from what I've seen, it seems they are tracked under the "Bugzilla" product in bugzilla.mozilla.org
  166. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> I tried searching there for product=Bugzilla bugs there with the word ARIA in the them, but didn't find any
  167. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> but in general I'm trying to figure out what changes we'd need to make to the W3C bugzilla UI still to address the specific problems that Gregory has reported
  168. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> a few of them have been fixed already by our systems team, but still need to be
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  173. # [06:54] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: that's a good thing to be looking at
  174. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> it may be that the best thing to do would be to port over the templates from http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/
  175. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> which has a UI that's been customized for improved accessibility
  176. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> unfortunately, they've disabled account creation on it
  177. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/createaccount.cgi
  178. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> so there's no way to go in and look at things like the UI for creating new bugs
  179. # [07:02] <othermaciej> hmmm
  180. # [07:02] <othermaciej> I think it's important to figure out the key workflows
  181. # [07:02] <othermaciej> I figure that includes:
  182. # [07:02] <othermaciej> - filing new bug (probably the most important!)
  183. # [07:03] <othermaciej> - given a link, read the state of a bug and its comments
  184. # [07:03] <othermaciej> - comment on a bug
  185. # [07:03] <othermaciej> - register for and be able to read email updates about the bug
  186. # [07:03] <othermaciej> and I suppose creating an account it also key
  187. # [07:03] <othermaciej> being able to do fancy searches, or to make state changes to bugs, probably not as critical
  188. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
  189. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> Steve Faulkner has already sent a message to the maintainer of http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/ to ask if we could get copies of their templates
  190. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> but not heard back yet afaik
  191. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> so I guess in the mean time I can ask Gregory if that UI in that instance does in fact have fixes for the problems he's cited
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  194. # [07:29] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: if I had the time for this, I'd try testing the bugzilla UI with VoiceOver but I don't think I should take on more commitments
  195. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> well, I can try that too
  196. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> I think Steve Faulkner already has a pretty clear understanding of what the specific problems are
  197. # [07:31] <othermaciej> I wonder if I could convince any Apple folks to help
  198. # [07:31] <othermaciej> James Craig and Chris Fleizach for instance are super skilled VoiceOver users while I am a newbie
  199. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, it would help if they could make time to try it and then comment at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10525
  200. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> and also try looking at a bug page at http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/ and comparing
  201. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10525
  202. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> oops
  203. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> make that http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=2649
  204. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> I don't think we necessarily need to do anything with the bug-entry UI first
  205. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> because we have the comments list as an alternative
  206. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> but there is no such alternative in place for viewing bugs and commenting on them
  207. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> so we should get that part fixed first
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  209. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> webben also volunteered to help out with making template changes
  210. # [07:37] <othermaciej> sounds like a reasonable approach
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  212. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> I think enabling the e-mail interaction mechanism in the W3C bugzilla would also help
  213. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> it's actually not clear to me why we don't have it enabled already
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  220. # [07:53] <othermaciej> I don't know how the email interaction works
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  238. # [08:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: why is onerror commented out?
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  251. # [09:48] <hsivonen> I don't see HTML5 requiring window.open to delay the load event of the opener
  252. # [09:48] <hsivonen> it seems to me that in Gecko, window.open delays the load event of the opener
  253. # [09:48] <hsivonen> I didn't expect that
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  293. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> wow, look at the UA string
  294. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12817
  295. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> what the hell is that
  296. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0; Trident/4.0;
  297. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.5.21022;
  298. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> .NET CLR 3.5.30729; OfficeLiveConnector.1.3; OfficeLivePatch.0.0; .NET CLR
  299. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> 3.0.30729; .NET4.0C; .NET4.0E; MS-RTC LM 8)
  300. # [12:08] <Ms2ger> Pretty common on windows
  301. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> really?
  302. # [12:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah
  303. # [12:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fortunately, IE9 no longer exposes the junk to HTTP
  304. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> what's the point of all of it?
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  306. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> OK
  307. # [12:09] <hsivonen> I believe all that is still in navigator.userAgent even in IE9, though my memory may be failing me
  308. # [12:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: everyone wants to have a piece of the UA string to proclaim their existence
  309. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> heh
  310. # [12:10] <hsivonen> I'm in the UA string, therefore, I am. -- Descartes
  311. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> :)
  312. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> well, in aggregate, it's certainly proclaiming something
  313. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> Yes, "HELP"
  314. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> yeah, something like that
  315. # [12:11] <Ms2ger> (-- John Lennon)
  316. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> certainly not proclaiming what they intended
  317. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> anyway, I do like bug reports that have phrases such as "threatens to undermine the future"
  318. # [12:12] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@p5B326BF7.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  319. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> though personally I would go with something more like "threatens to destroy the entire fabric of all we hold dear"
  320. # [12:13] <Ms2ger> (i.e., XML)
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  323. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> I wonder what they worshipped before well-formedness became God
  324. # [12:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Architectural Forms
  325. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> heh
  326. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> I think that was always a pretty small cult
  327. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> because the initiation rituals were so complicated
  328. # [12:20] <hsivonen> Did HyTime use Architectural Forms?
  329. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> I think so
  330. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> regardless, they were cut out of the same cloth
  331. # [12:21] <hsivonen> Architectural Forms is an awesome name, BTW
  332. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> should be repurposed for something good
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  335. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> Using an SGML architecture, documents would instead be required to begin with something like the following processing instruction:
  336. # [12:26] <Ms2ger>
  337. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> <?IS10744:arch
  338. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> name="HTML 5.0"
  339. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> public-id="-//W3C//NOTATION HTML 5.0 ARCHITECTURE//EN"
  340. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> dtd-public-id="-//W3C//DTD HTML 5.0//EN"
  341. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> doc-elem-form="HTML"
  342. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> >
  343. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> Yes, because the doctype wasn't hard enough to remember
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  349. # [13:06] <jgraham> It should be a CSS property e.g. architectural-form: gothic would add flying buttresses to your <div>, pointed arches to the cop of your columns and put gargoyles around your borders
  350. # [13:06] <jgraham> *top
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  357. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> so given that you use any element to define a command, just by putting an accesskey attribute on it, the stuff near the end of the table at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#wai-aria would seem to suggest that role= menuitemcheckbox and =menuitem and =menuitemradio should be allowed on any element
  358. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> *given that you can use any element
  359. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑ true? or no?
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  361. # [13:33] * hsivonen looks
  362. # [13:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: not quite
  363. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> well, I mean just as far as the schema goes
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  365. # [13:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: first, menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio aren't allowed, because accesskey on any other element defines a command with the facet "command"
  366. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> OK
  367. # [13:36] <hsivonen> so role=menuitem is allowed if accesskey is present and if an ancestor is a menu element whose type attribute is in the list state
  368. # [13:37] <hsivonen> oh, wait
  369. # [13:37] <hsivonen> where does it say that it's OK to make default strong ARIA semantics explicit?
  370. # [13:37] <karlcow> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_displays_by_pixel_density
  371. # [13:37] <hsivonen> ok in the first paragraph of that section
  372. # [13:37] <karlcow> useful page for developers
  373. # [13:38] <hsivonen> karlcow: looks like a useful page that probably violates Wikipedia's policies :-(
  374. # [13:38] <hsivonen> karlcow: I hope the deletionists don't find it
  375. # [13:38] <karlcow> in which ways?
  376. # [13:39] <hsivonen> karlcow: Original Research
  377. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, that's how I have been interpreting that first paragraph, at least. Though I do wish it stated that more clearly
  378. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so, to be clear, in the schema it seems I need to allow role=menuitem on every element, then have the assertions code check that any element with role=menuitem has a menu ancestor in the list state?
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  381. # [13:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, that's probably better than trying to make it a RELAX NG co-occurrence constraint with accesskey
  382. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> OK
  383. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> yeah, the way I described seems less painful to implement
  384. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> slightly
  385. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> though still far from being fun
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  408. # [14:56] <zcorpan> Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=5BBug_12818=5D__New=3A_=C3=90=C2=BE=C3=90?=
  409. # [14:56] <zcorpan> =?utf-8?Q?=C2=B0=C3=90=C2=B2=C3=91=C2=80=C3=90=C2=BF=C3=90?=
  410. # [14:56] <zcorpan> =?utf-8?Q?=C2=BB=C3=91=C2=80_=C3=90=C2=B2=C3=90=C2=B0=C3=90?=
  411. # [14:56] <zcorpan> =?utf-8?Q?=C2=BB=C3=91=C2=80=C3=90=C2=BB=C3=91=C2=80=C3=90?=
  412. # [14:56] <zcorpan> =?utf-8?Q?=C2=B0=C3=90=C2=BF_=C3=90=C2=BE=C3=90=C2=B2=C3=90?=
  413. # [14:56] <zcorpan> =?utf-8?Q?=C2=BB=C3=90=C2=B0=C3=91=C2=80=C3=90=C2=BF=C3=90?=
  414. # [14:56] <zcorpan> =?utf-8?Q?=C2=BB=C3=90=C2=B2=C3=90=C2=BA=C3=91=C2=80_=C3=90?=
  415. # [14:56] <zcorpan> =?utf-8?Q?=C2=BB=C3=90=C2=BA=C3=91=C2=80=C3=90=C2=BF=C3=90?=
  416. # [14:56] <zcorpan> =?utf-8?Q?=C2=BB=C3=90=C2=BE=C3=91=C2=83=C3=90=C2=BA?=
  417. # [14:56] <zcorpan> gotta love encodings
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  420. # [14:58] <Philip`> According to Google, it translates into English as "oavrplr valrlrap ovlarplvkr lkrplouk"
  421. # [14:59] <zcorpan> which in turn is detected as Danish
  422. # [15:00] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  423. # [15:05] <Workshiva> Wait what
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  430. # [15:12] <gsnedders> It's only Document that HTML5 says you should just have a single impl of for HTML, SVG, etc.? Not Element?
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  433. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, right
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  446. # [15:28] <aho> about 2 months or so someone wrote a nice article about css terminology (property, value, rule block, selector, etc). anyone knows which one i mean?
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  452. # [15:47] <zcorpan> aren't there lots of old nice css terminology micro articles?
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  455. # [15:49] <miketaylr> aho: divya wrote one: http://nimbupani.com/css-vocabulary.html
  456. # [15:49] <aho> ah
  457. # [15:49] <aho> yea
  458. # [15:49] <aho> that's the one :D
  459. # [15:50] <aho> oh... nov 2010
  460. # [15:50] <aho> heh
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  462. # [15:50] <miketaylr> wow, time flies
  463. # [15:50] <aho> well, y'know... waves and ripples... the internet *handwaving*
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  465. # [15:59] <hsivonen> if last week's report was Shelley's last, does it mean annevk has returned?
  466. # [16:02] <jgraham> I… don't think so
  467. # [16:03] <zcorpan> who'll step in and write the weekly?
  468. # [16:03] <jgraham> twitter suggests Bolivia
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  475. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, IE9 has massive compatibility lists to solve the browser-sniffing problem, and it seems to work pretty well. Doubtless it fails on the long tail of sites, but it seems to be enough that compatibility isn't a major liability in practice.
  476. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> Or at least, I haven't heard anyone say compatibility is a major liability of IE9 in practice.
  477. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> I haven't used it that much myself.
  478. # [16:19] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Yeah, but just switching to another rendering mode isn't a solution that works well for other browsers, really.
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  480. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> Other browsers don't need such a drastic solution, since they worked pretty similarly to the standards to start with.
  481. # [16:21] <AryehGregor> They can mostly get by with minor case-by-case hacks plus some evangelism.
  482. # [16:21] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: There are plenty of sites with sniffing like // is IE or Opera, go down IE code-path
  483. # [16:21] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Esp. those forking on stuff like window.attachEvent
  484. # [16:21] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's because Opera made the mistake of working like IE in a lot of cases instead of Firefox.
  485. # [16:21] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Where Opera breaks if you drop window.attachEvent
  486. # [16:21] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: It's hard to work like Firefox when Firefox didn't yet exist. :P
  487. # [16:21] <AryehGregor> Well, okay.
  488. # [16:21] <gsnedders> (And Gecko in general pretty much didn't exist at the time)
  489. # [16:22] <AryehGregor> I was thinking more recently.
  490. # [16:22] <AryehGregor> Like, last ten years.
  491. # [16:22] <gsnedders> We haven't implemented IE stuff like that in a *long* time.
  492. # [16:22] <jgraham> I tend to agree, but it wasn't clearly the wrong choice at the time
  493. # [16:22] <gsnedders> Ten years ago was when IE was at its peak, and when we implemented a lot of that stuff.
  494. # [16:23] <AryehGregor> Yeah, at the time it was probably smart to follow IE.
  495. # [16:24] <AryehGregor> Gecko did too, for that matter, in lots of ways.
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  501. # [16:38] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: FWIW, I'm very glad we don't have compat lists in Gecko. If we had, I'm pretty sure I would have been required to implement HTML5-compliant script loading in addition to the old code path with a compat list switch
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  503. # [16:39] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: but since we don't have that capability to begin with, we just require sites to get their sniffing act together if they want to continue working
  504. # [16:39] <hsivonen> though some sites have more trouble than other getting their act together: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=660282#c6
  505. # [16:40] <hsivonen> *others
  506. # [16:42] <smaug____> gsnedders: just curious, has Opera started to drop support for various IEisms ?
  507. # [16:42] <Ms2ger> I remember attempts, at least
  508. # [16:42] <gsnedders> hsivonen: How do you deal with major regional sites in countries where you want market-share but where you don't have the marketshare to make them actually fix their behaviour?
  509. # [16:43] <gsnedders> smaug____: Some stuff. Other stuff has been tried and then broken more than it fixed.
  510. # [16:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: we don't deal as far as I know
  511. # [16:43] <gsnedders> (e.g., the window.attachEvent example above)
  512. # [16:43] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, by having market share ;)
  513. # [16:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: except for stuff like keeping heuristic detectors working for Japanese
  514. # [16:44] <gsnedders> There have certainly been cases where we've had to make a choice between aligning with other browsers or keeping major sites working that are likely to not change.
  515. # [16:44] <gsnedders> At least not change quickly.
  516. # [16:45] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Firefox 4 fail big time (crashes) with a Hungarian ad provider, but even that wasn't handled in a special way (i.e. no out-of-cycle release or anything like that)
  517. # [16:46] <hsivonen> *fails
  518. # [16:46] * hsivonen wonders if there's something wrong with my s key
  519. # [16:47] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Was that found after release, or simply just considered low enough priority of not block release?
  520. # [16:48] <hsivonen> gsnedders: found before release. importance seen and cause understood only after release
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  522. # [17:02] <gsnedders> Oh yay! CORE-840 fixed, which fixes ~150 CSS 2.1 test suite failures.
  523. # [17:02] <gsnedders> (Outline on empty element is not drawn around content)
  524. # [17:03] <gsnedders> Yay interop!
  525. # [17:05] <zcorpan> https://hacks.mozilla.org/2011/05/aurora-6-is-here/ - i hope they didn't actually implement <event-source>
  526. # [17:05] <jgraham> Isn't that the 150 tests Microsoft submitted that were like outline:blue; outline:red; outline:pretty-much-ever-colour;?
  527. # [17:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, yes. But that sounds like a lot of the CSS 2.1 test-suite. :P
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  529. # [17:07] <miketaylr> zcorpan: O_o
  530. # [17:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: So when you said "Yay interop!" what you meant is "Yay pointless tests!"
  531. # [17:07] <jgraham> zcorpan: Where does it say <event-source>?
  532. # [17:08] <miketaylr> https://gist.github.com/995177
  533. # [17:08] <miketaylr> (which is embedded)
  534. # [17:08] <zcorpan> jgraham: in the example
  535. # [17:12] <jgraham> Oooh so it does
  536. # [17:12] <Ms2ger> We didn't
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  538. # [17:16] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I don't see anything about <event-source> in the code that landed. What's the Hacks article talking about?
  539. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> No idea
  540. # [17:18] <zcorpan> prolly ripped an example from wikipedia or something without checking whether it was up to date
  541. # [17:20] <zcorpan> anyone know what happened to websocket.onerror?
  542. # [17:21] <jgraham> I thought the IETF had eliminated all error from the websocket spec
  543. # [17:21] <zcorpan> well yes
  544. # [17:22] <Ms2ger> It's being fixed
  545. # [17:23] <zcorpan> what is?
  546. # [17:23] <Ms2ger> The example
  547. # [17:23] <zcorpan> oh
  548. # [17:23] <Ms2ger> I don't put any hope in the IETF fixing something
  549. # [17:25] <hsivonen> the example is gone now
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  581. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, Firefox probably has more freedom here than IE, though, since IE is subject to vastly more browser-sniffing than Firefox. Also, the difference between IE9 standards and IE8 standards, for instance, or IE7 standards and IE8 standards, is drastically greater than the difference between any two consecutive Firefox versions.
  582. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> Now that IE9 is pretty standards-compliant, IE10 might not need to preserve an IE9 compatibility mode.
  583. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> Because it will only be relatively small changes.
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  585. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> I know of one case where WebKit worked around bad MediaWiki browser-sniffing (added for KHTML in like 2002 or something) with something like "if file is named KHTMLFixes.css, and has exactly the following content, ignore it". The alternative in that case was to have all MediaWiki sites have dramatically broken appearance on every page, and good luck evangelizing that away.
  586. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> Would Firefox really refuse to have some kind of site-specific quirk even in such a case? Does it really not have any such workarounds?
  587. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> (I got the impression WebKit has very, very few like that)
  588. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> We don't have any
  589. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  590. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> We had one for hotmail briefly, right before we released Fx4, but they asked us to take it out
  591. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Reminds me of how Wine has no app-specific compatibility hacks (or at least didn't used to), while Windows is full of them, but somehow Wine manages to work for lots of programs anyway. Sometimes when Windows doesn't.
  592. # [19:04] <jgraham> To be fair windows works for many more programs than wine
  593. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> And Firefox works for many more sites than IE :)
  594. # [19:05] <Philip`> Wine users have a much more relaxed definition of "works", too
  595. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Granted.
  596. # [19:05] <jgraham> Philip`: "shows the splash screen"?
  597. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Although I think Windows only has shims where it would really mess up the program, not just where it would make it behave a bit weirdly.
  598. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Unless it's really high-profile, maybe, I dunno.
  599. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> jgraham, slightly higher than that. More like: "can use all the basic functionality, possibly with occasional crashes or lots of glitches, and possibly requiring you to go through voodoo magic to install/start it, and possibly requiring you to install some downloaded closed-source DLLs, and possibly requiring you to fiddle with the Wine registry a bunch, and in some cases maybe compile your own Wine with a patch or two applied."
  600. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> I'd say Vampire: The Masquerade - Redemption worked in Wine, and even once I got it installed, it was an intricate five-minute procedure to actually start it.
  601. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> I had to try several times, because often it would hang. Then once it started I had to start a new game and then load my save from there, because if I loaded my save directly it didn't work. And some other steps I've forgotten.
  602. # [19:08] <jgraham> AryehGregor: So wine doesn't have any hacks because it expects users to recompile with them included on a case-by-case basis?
  603. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> Exactly
  604. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> Oh, right, I had to adjust my resolution and run it in windowed mode, instead of running it in fullscreen mode.
  605. # [19:08] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I think all our hacks are done in browser.js
  606. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> I got most of the procedure automated using a shell script, though, so it was okay.
  607. # [19:09] <jgraham> Stockholm syndrome?
  608. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> jgraham, that was an extreme case, usually you don't have to do that. The one time I saw that was a temporary case where some game was reading some weird info about the video driver and deciding it didn't support it or something, so the hack was just to supply some bogus data to shut it up until Wine was fixed to report it correctly.
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  610. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> jgraham, no, Stockholm syndrome is the opposite: when people get so used to Windows that they prefer it to Linux and aren't willing to put up with minor inconveniences like this. :)
  611. # [19:11] <gsnedders> To be fair, we did actually make a change that broke old versions of jQuery, and then just having to evanglize every case of that breaking a site.
  612. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> Presumably quite old.
  613. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> jQuery mostly makes an effort to sniff properly, right? (Sometimes it's not realistically possible, though, or not worth the effort . . .)
  614. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> (I committed at least one feature to MediaWiki which says if (firefox) { do_something_different(); }, and in that specific case I have no apologies. It was the best solution available.)
  615. # [19:13] * jgraham just uses a Mac for things that won't run in Linux, at the expense of occasionally having to put up with its inferior window manager when programming
  616. # [19:13] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: In many places it doesn't sniff at all properly, AFAIK
  617. # [19:13] <jgraham> And doesn't try to play games that aren't written by Nintendo.
  618. # [19:13] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, which was that?
  619. # [19:13] <jgraham> On the intended hardware
  620. # [19:14] <gsnedders> Note that we in browser.js have stuff to work-around browser sniffing on major sites like blogger.com where evanglism has proved ineffective.
  621. # [19:14] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=516293
  622. # [19:15] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes, Opera has a *ton* of site-specific quirks in the browser.js file
  623. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/skins/common/wikibits.js?view=markup#l504
  624. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> Slightly better link: http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/skins/common/wikibits.js?view=markup#l491
  625. # [19:15] <jgraham> So we are not exactly a shining example of purity here
  626. # [19:15] * Ms2ger was about to test whether that bug was still present by loading the test in Chrome
  627. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> Opera has a lot less clout to get sites to fix themselves than Firefox.
  628. # [19:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: My point is we have quite a few cases where all we do is just make ourselves appear (via the navigator object) to be some other browser.
  629. # [19:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh. I didn't realise that was your point.
  630. # [19:16] <jgraham> Well yeah that is lame
  631. # [19:17] * Ms2ger neither
  632. # [19:17] <jgraham> There are also a few cases where we work around our own bugs, which is also kinda lame :)
  633. # [19:17] <Ms2ger> And we have people saying we should implement a window.opera equivalent
  634. # [19:17] <jgraham> (but I expect those fixes tend to be way more shortlived)
  635. # [19:18] <Ms2ger> jgraham, seems like your core doesn't get sufficient QA ;)
  636. # [19:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: I think there are far more workarounds for workarounds of long-since fixed bugs.
  637. # [19:19] <jgraham> Ms2ger: How do you think we know what the bugs are to work around? :)
  638. # [19:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes, I imagine there are far more cases where we have to work around a site working around bugs that were fixed in opera 7 :)
  639. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> Did you eventually end up removing element.all?
  640. # [19:21] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Removing that broke loads of sites, IIRC.
  641. # [19:23] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Apparently CKEditor relies upon it
  642. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> Fun
  643. # [19:24] <gsnedders> http://dev.ckeditor.com/browser/CKEditor/trunk/_source/core/dom/element.js#L1238
  644. # [19:25] <gsnedders> if ( CKEDITOR.env.ie || CKEDITOR.env.opera )
  645. # [19:25] <gsnedders> There are far too many sites and libraries that for some reason throw us down the IE codepath
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  647. # [19:26] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: the window.opera equivalent in Firefox is called window.netscape for historical reasons
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  650. # [19:27] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it's quite sad how sites are willfully ignorant about stuff like that in face of well-informed evangelism
  651. # [19:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: for example, when evangelizing a site about their Firefox sniffing, I also mentioned to them that they should proactively get rid of their Opera sniffing so that their code works when Opera implements the spec
  652. # [19:28] <hsivonen> and they kept their Opera sniffing anyway
  653. # [19:29] <gsnedders> http://dev.ckeditor.com/ticket/6666 is a case of they've known we intend on breaking our behaviour soon for seven months.
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  655. # [19:33] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: The only browser sniffing (for Opera) in jQuery master now is for jQuery.browser, it's never used to fork internally.
  656. # [19:34] <AryehGregor> Cool.
  657. # [19:34] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.22.40)
  658. # [19:34] <AryehGregor> I remember when I looked at jQuery a while ago I saw a little bit of bad browser-sniffing, but nothing that looked gratuitous.
  659. # [19:35] <hsivonen> gsnedders: why does jQuery expose jQuery.browser at all? compat with old versions that used it internally and got used externally?
  660. # [19:35] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No idea.
  661. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, because authors want to do their own sniffing, and browsers don't make it easy for them?
  662. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> I mean, would you prefer they sniff based on stuff like document.all?
  663. # [19:37] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: depends on what code they run as the result of sniffing on a case-by-case basis :-)
  664. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> Or stuff like: var is_khtml = navigator.vendor == 'KDE' ||
  665. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> ( document.childNodes && !document.all && !navigator.taintEnabled );
  666. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> Which is what got MediaWiki's ancient KHTML hack hitting WebKit.
  667. # [19:37] * AryehGregor doesn't know what navigator.taintEnabled is, some Gecko-ism?
  668. # [19:38] <hsivonen> I was about to ask what taintEnabled is
  669. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, I'm not talking about sniffing document.all before using document.all, I'm talking about sniffing document.all and then deciding the browser is IE and supports a bazillion unrelated features that only IE supports.
  670. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> If you're going to do that, at least check the UA string properly.
  671. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> Using the UA string also means browsers can cloak themselves easily.
  672. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> In case the code isn't really browser-specific after all.
  673. # [19:39] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  674. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> Of course, the UA string has loads of pitfalls too, so your random author is really better off letting jQuery do the UA string parsing for them.
  675. # [19:39] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Try replacing document.all with document.attachEvent and then you have what Opera has fun. Especially when the other code-path relies upon some nonstandard Gecko/WebKit thing…
  676. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> Don't be silly, anything in Gecko+WebKit is standard. It just might not have a spec written yet.
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  679. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, anything in only IE or IE+Opera is proprietary and evil.
  680. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> It stands to reason.
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  682. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> Until Gecko or WebKit implements it, then it becomes okay. Like innerHTML, or execCommand().
  683. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> Or, um, like 20% of other important web features.
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  685. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> XHR
  686. # [19:41] * Joins: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  687. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> If everyone but WebKit implements something, it's clearly WebKit's fault and WebKit is being stupid for not changing. If everyone but Gecko implements something that was originally an IE feature (like .innerText), Gecko is nobly resisting the encroachment of Micro$oft's proprietary "features", but might be justified in conceding the fight on this score.
  688. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> If everyone but IE implements something, then it goes without saying it's because Microsoft is evil and doesn't want to follow standards.
  689. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> This stuff is all obvious, right?
  690. # [19:43] <Workshiva> Well, if it's CSS-related I think webkit is always right, even in the case you mentioned
  691. # [19:43] <gsnedders> And if Opera doesn't implement something?
  692. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> Nobody cares. Use a normal browser.
  693. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> :P
  694. # [19:43] <Workshiva> >real browser
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  696. # [19:43] * AryehGregor accepts Workshiva's correction
  697. # [19:43] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: and Chrome-only stuff is axiomatically HTML5
  698. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> Mostly, yeah.
  699. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> Especially if they intend to probably write a spec for it at some point in the unspecified future.
  700. # [19:44] <Workshiva> Axiomatically awesome
  701. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> However, any claim by Microsoft to implement HTML5 is a complete joke. Everyone knows IE doesn't implement HTML5.
  702. # [19:45] <Workshiva> Except when it's native HTML5
  703. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> Especially for features like drag-and-drop.
  704. # [19:45] <hsivonen> Workshiva: "awesome" is reserved for Firefox
  705. # [19:47] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Also, if Firefox implements something new, it's irrelevant because IE won't support it for years.
  706. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, no, you're getting confused. Only losers care about IE. Everyone worth caring about puts a prominent banner at the top of their page telling all IE users to switch to other browsers.
  707. # [19:47] * Joins: ehc (~evan@ool-4572d618.dyn.optonline.net)
  708. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Only ignorant, selfish webmasters are fixated on what IE supports.
  709. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Responsible people write code for standards-compliant browsers and write crippled and barely-tested code for IE.
  710. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> This is sometimes known as "graceful degradation".
  711. # [19:49] <hsivonen> worked for me. Validator.nu's UI had a JS error in IE <= 8 for years
  712. # [19:49] <hsivonen> then IE9 came along and fixed it
  713. # [19:49] <hsivonen> I had no browser sniffing
  714. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> I don't even try to run any of my browser tests in IE8.
  715. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> They all fail immediately with cryptic errors.
  716. # [19:49] <hsivonen> the main reason why I didn't fix it myself in IE <= 8 was that IE's diagnostics were too terrible to figure out what caused the error
  717. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> IE seems to have more cryptic errors than Gecko or WebKit. I've seen "Unspecified error" too many times.
  718. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> Even in IE9.
  719. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> IE9 has okay diagnostics. I prefer WebKit's Web Inspector, but IE9's F12 tools are perfectly serviceable.
  720. # [19:50] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: maybe it means that Hixie hasn't written a spec for that stuff yet
  721. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> Doesn't help much when a built-in function like Selection.addRange() throws an "Unspecified error." exception under some circumstances.
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  723. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> But it helps me figure out other bugs, like when nodes have a nextSibling but no parentNode.
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  745. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Does Firebug work in Aurora 6?
  746. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> Firefox doesn't seem to think Firebug 1.8.0a3 is compatible with Aurora 6.0a2.
  747. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> So I guess I don't upgrade it. :/
  748. # [20:45] <erlehmann> what is aurora
  749. # [20:45] <abarth|gardener> erlehmann: firefox dev channel
  750. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> Firefox dev channel?
  751. # [20:46] <erlehmann> ah
  752. # [20:46] <erlehmann> thx
  753. # [20:47] <hsivonen> regarding zcorpan's adaptive image suggestion, which formats besides interlaced PNG have the property that if you download the first quarter of the file, you can decode the image with halved dimensions?
  754. # [20:47] <hsivonen> (JPEG 2000 does *not* have that property, BTW)
  755. # [20:48] <hsivonen> (to decode JPEG 2000 with halved dimensions, you have to download half of the data--not a quarter of the data)
  756. # [20:49] <hsivonen> (that is, you want halved dimensions with acceptable image quality)
  757. # [20:53] <Philip`> Assuming JPEG 2000 is generally sane, doesn't that suggest that half the perceptual information content is necessary for acceptable quality at half the dimensions, and so any similarly efficient lossy format will have the same behaviour?
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  774. # [21:52] <Thomas9000> can I ask html questions here?
  775. # [21:52] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  776. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> Sure thing
  777. # [21:54] <Thomas9000> I've got a question about the new offline caching in html5. Is there a way to prevent the browser from automatically downloading the resources if cache.manifest has changed and instead do it manually using javascript? So the user can decide if they want to update now or later?
  778. # [21:55] <Thomas9000> Got any idea? :)
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  833. # [23:22] * AryehGregor discovers Google Closure uses execCommand() extensively, nice
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  835. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> . . . I think?
  836. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> No, it seems like it's another one that wrote their own execCommand() implementation. Oh well.
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  848. # Session Close: Tue May 31 00:00:00 2011

The end :)