/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 31 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  22. # [01:43] <gsnedders> Is there any public date for the start of Apple's work on JSC (and what would become WebKit in general)?
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  24. # [01:45] <gsnedders> Because what sources I can find put it as 2001. Just wondering when the decade anniversery is. :)
  25. # [01:46] <gsnedders> 08/24/2001 07:24:40 (10 years ago) would appear to be it from SVN
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  31. # [02:19] <bga_> gsnedders while(foo){ const с = expr }
  32. # [02:20] <bga_> logically expr should be assigned to с each time
  33. # [02:20] <bga_> but not
  34. # [02:20] <bga_> *assigned*, not alloced
  35. # [02:21] <bga_> but direct assign c = 1 w/o const keyword - forbided
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  37. # [02:24] <bga_> hm
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  40. # [02:25] <bga_> heh fix a = 1; a = 2; _log(a)
  41. # [02:25] <bga_> in opera - 2
  42. # [02:25] <bga_> in chrome - 1
  43. # [02:25] <bga_> s/fix/const/
  44. # [02:26] <bga_> in ff - 1
  45. # [02:26] <bga_> :(
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  72. # [04:08] <gsnedders> bga_: Lars Thomas Hansen (of ES4 fame) apparently originally didn't want to implement const as it was non-standard, then site compat started requiring it, so made const a synonym for var, and that seems to have stuck around through the whole engine being rewritten since.
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  129. # [08:06] <hsivonen> this has nothing to do with HTTP headers, right: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=839 ?
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  131. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: indeed
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  137. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fyi, I pulled all your latest changes into the backend for the HTML5 facet of the W3C validator
  138. # [08:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: cool. any user complaints yet?
  139. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> nope
  140. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> but I just did it only 15 minutes ago
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  161. # [09:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I updated the validator code with new meta name registrations. I also replied to the bug report by the pagerank-seo guy.
  162. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> OK, saw the checkin
  163. # [09:23] * MikeSmith takes a look at bugmail
  164. # [09:25] * asmodai is still unsure why nightly (7.0) and aurora (6.0) can't run next to each other even with -no-remote
  165. # [09:26] <hsivonen> asmodai: you need -P with different profiles in addition to -no-remote
  166. # [09:26] <hsivonen> e.g. -P aurora -no-remote and -P nightly -no-remote
  167. # [09:26] <hsivonen> asmodai: see also https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=655667
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  169. # [09:28] <hsivonen> asmodai: no version of Firefox can deal with two app instances accessing one profile concurrently
  170. # [09:28] <asmodai> Well, I have 3 profiles set up when the profile manager pops up
  171. # [09:28] <asmodai> every ff I have, 4, aurora, nightly, has -no-remote -P to the command line shortcut
  172. # [09:29] <asmodai> and I have 3 different profiles
  173. # [09:29] <hsivonen> asmodai: oh. If it doesn't work with different profiles for the two, it's worth filing a bug
  174. # [09:32] <asmodai> Double checking everything now, just to make sure I am not mistaken.
  175. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> what's cedar?
  176. # [09:33] <asmodai> A tree?
  177. # [09:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you mean in the Mozilla context?
  178. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah
  179. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> just a branch name?
  180. # [09:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it's technically a project branch, but it doesn't belong to any particular project
  181. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  182. # [09:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it's a place where people can land with less tree watching than in the mozilla-central case
  183. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> I see
  184. # [09:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and then volkmar or ehsan merges it over from time to time (daily?)
  185. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> yeah, I saw some of those checkins and wondered
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  188. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, if you have a minute, could you please look at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12400
  189. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> it's a bug filed against the HTML5 facet of the W3C validator
  190. # [09:44] <asmodai> hsivonen: *sigh* Turns out that it had never created a subdir in my profiles directory for the profiles, but used the profiles dir itself. *sigh* Works as intended, pilot error, etc.
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  194. # [09:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: surrounding a combining character in an element results in the page not being fully normalized, so the validator is working as designed
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  196. # [09:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if the goal is to have the base character and the combining mark render separately, making the combining mark combine with a U+0020 is the right thing to do
  197. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> OK
  198. # [09:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if the goal is to have the combining mark combine with the base character but style the two parts differently, that's probably something that browsers shouldn't be required to support
  199. # [09:49] <asmodai> Interesting how the score on html5test.com is anti-aliased on ff and not on opera
  200. # [09:49] <hsivonen> asmodai: on Windows?
  201. # [09:49] <asmodai> aye
  202. # [09:50] <hsivonen> asmodai: different glyph renderer probably
  203. # [09:50] <asmodai> *nods*
  204. # [09:50] <hsivonen> Windows has many to choose from
  205. # [09:50] <asmodai> All the occurences of that specific font are AA on ff, and jagged on opera
  206. # [09:51] <asmodai> Just wonder why our dear friends at Opera would not enable/make use of it.
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  255. # [12:33] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/Conferences/WWW4/Papers/190/
  256. # [12:33] <karlcow> Using versioning to support collaboration on the WWW
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  271. # [13:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: good catch about DOMContentLoaded
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  273. # [13:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i don't see any reason not to
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  275. # [13:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: historically, defer scripts run between readyState becoming interactive and DOMContentLoaded firing
  276. # [13:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: dunno if that matters for compat
  277. # [13:45] <zcorpan> aha. then it could be a compat problem i guess. although opera doesn't support defer scripts at all yet
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  292. # [14:17] <Workshiva> karlcow: Based on the bibliography I'm going to guess it's from 1995
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  294. # [14:18] <karlcow> Worshiva, it is from 1995 indeed WWW4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web_Conference
  295. # [14:19] <karlcow> document archeology :)
  296. # [14:19] <karlcow> danbri has made me curious about http://www.w3.org/History/1992/timbl-floppies/TimBerners-Lee_CERN/hype.tar.Z
  297. # [14:20] <karlcow> which contains "gems" too.
  298. # [14:20] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@77.222.73.150) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  299. # [14:22] <karlcow> there is a 1991 paper in ./hype/hypertext/Conferences/HT91/Paper/Paper.html with the title "An Alternative Architecture for Distributed Hypertext"
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  301. # [14:25] <danbri> lots of fascinating stuff in there
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  310. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: in the assertions code, when I encounter a tbody element, there's no way I can tell whether that tbody was inserted by the parser, right?
  311. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> They all were ;)
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  319. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: point taken
  320. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> so what I meant was, is that tbody one for which the parser did the 'act as if a start tag token with the tag name "tbody" had been seen' thing
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  322. # [15:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no way to find out
  323. # [15:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: why do you want to find out?
  324. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, I figured
  325. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: for this case:
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  330. # [15:37] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: the text about the expectation of http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1008 is the wrong way round, right?
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  332. # [15:37] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: Chrome shows nothing in the frame fwiw
  333. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, yes, the tags should be shown
  334. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> Sorry for the confusion
  335. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> Chrome seems to just use its HTML path
  336. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> Try
  337. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> var vismap = "<b>test</b>";
  338. # [15:39] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: cool. at least Firefox is in good company with the regression :-)
  339. # [15:39] <Ms2ger> Good? ;)
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  346. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: sorry, meant to paste this:
  347. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> <table role="menu"><tr role="presentation"><td role="menuitem"></td></tr></table>
  348. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> in the context of whether the validator should report an error for that
  349. # [15:53] <karlcow> http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/windowssecurity/archive/2011/05/28/combating-social-engineering-tactics-like-cookiejacking-to-stay-safer-online.aspx
  350. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: but anyway, it seems to me it should be an error
  351. # [15:54] <jgraham> MikeSmith: ARIA conformance depends on whether implied elements were explicitly included or not?
  352. # [15:54] * jgraham is not really following
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  354. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> jgraham: i think it rightly depends on the DOM
  355. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> and because there's an implied tbody in that markup instance, and that tbody lacks an appropriate role, it's an error
  356. # [15:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: whether it should or not shouldn't depend on whether tbody was implied
  357. # [15:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I guess that's an error then
  358. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> OK, I can see that
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  362. # [15:59] <jgraham> MikeSmith: OK, as long as it depends on what gets into the final DOM, it all seems sane.
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  365. # [16:09] <AryehGregor> Could we get rid of implementers@lists.whatwg.org? It only seems to be useful to people who are confused and think anyone actually uses it.
  366. # [16:09] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: it's good for confused people to get email responses
  367. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> As opposed to whatwg, where more than half a dozen people will actually read it? (Unless there are hordes of people who subscribed to implementers at some point and just don't post there?)
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  369. # [16:12] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: well, in this case, I already replied to him in bugzilla and on Twitter
  370. # [16:13] * AryehGregor should have read the bug he mentioned before responding
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  421. # [18:29] <gsnedders> From Dojo: <iframe id="blah" name="blah" src="javascript:'&lt;html&gt&lt;body&gt;&lt;div id=subDiv&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/html&gt;'"></iframe>
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  428. # [18:35] <jcranmer> ,,,hello
  429. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> jcranmer, hi
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  431. # [18:38] <jcranmer> sorry
  432. # [18:38] <jcranmer> that was lag in my IRC client
  433. # [18:38] <jcranmer> I thought I was in a different channel
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  470. # [20:22] <gavin__> where can I see the "blame" for http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/timers.html#dom-external-addsearchprovider ?
  471. # [20:23] * gavin__ is now known as gavin
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  474. # [20:25] <gavin> hmm found http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2011/005298.html
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  477. # [20:29] <gavin> Hixie: what's the reasoning behind the same-origin check for window.external.AddSearchProvider?
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  490. # [21:09] <Hixie> gavin: it's what browsers do, iirc
  491. # [21:09] <Hixie> (from memory, could be wrong)
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  493. # [21:10] <gavin> Hixie: firefox doesn't
  494. # [21:10] <gavin> (that's why I'm asking - wondering if there's reason for me to implement that)
  495. # [21:11] <gavin> maybe I can find a chromium bug about it
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  497. # [21:12] <gavin> http://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/chromium-search-provider-js-support mentions the restriction but doesn't mention reasoning
  498. # [21:15] * abarth|zZz is now known as abarth|gardner
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  502. # [21:23] <MikeSmith> lord help us
  503. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> ... the CSSWG is approaching
  504. # [21:24] <MikeSmith> a sign of the End Times
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  506. # [21:48] <Hixie> gavin: firefox didn't seem to implement the api very thoroughly so iirc i paid more attention to the other uas (IE, mainly)
  507. # [21:48] <Hixie> gavin: but it may also just have been something that seemed like a good idea at the time
  508. # [21:48] <Hixie> gavin: let me look closer
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  511. # [21:48] <gavin> we implement if fully, though IsSearchProviderInstaller is just a stub
  512. # [21:48] <Hixie> gavin: pretty sure the origin check in step 4 there is an IE thing
  513. # [21:49] <Hixie> stub != fully :-P
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  515. # [21:49] <gavin> ok ok :)
  516. # [21:50] <Hixie> i can't think of a security reason for not adding search engines from other sites off hand
  517. # [21:50] <gavin> is "scriptURL" in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/timers.html#dom-external-addsearchprovider point 2 a typo?
  518. # [21:50] <gavin> seems like it should be either "url" or "engineURL"
  519. # [21:50] <Hixie> especially since the opensearch file contains the "real" search URL and opensearch lets you specify any random url
  520. # [21:51] <gavin> (to match non-normative box above, or interface definition)
  521. # [21:51] <Hixie> yeah step 2 is bogus
  522. # [21:51] <Hixie> let me fix this
  523. # [21:51] <Hixie> i'll fix step 2 and remove the check in step 4
  524. # [21:51] <gavin> ok
  525. # [21:51] <gavin> that was easy!
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  527. # [21:51] <Hixie> :-)
  528. # [21:52] <Hixie> i happened to not be editing anything else at the time :-)
  529. # [21:52] <Hixie> usually when i'm like "file a bug" it's because i'm in the middle of some other edit
  530. # [21:53] <Hixie> ok checked in
  531. # [21:54] <gavin> thanks!
  532. # [21:54] <Hixie> np
  533. # [21:54] <Hixie> ok let's see if i can finish off the websocket feedback
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  535. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> I just found a case where execCommand() produces a non-serializable DOM in every browser in exactly the same way: formatBlock with argument <p> on <xmp>foo</xmp>. Produces <xmp><p>foo</p></xmp> in every browser.
  536. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> And in my algorithm, except I'm about to fix my algorithm. :)
  537. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
  538. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Firefox fails differently: <p><xmp>foo</xmp></p>.
  539. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  540. # [22:09] * AryehGregor discovers a bug in Firefox's innerHTML serialization algorithm too: <xmp><</xmp> serializes to <xmp>&lt;</xmp>, so if you repeatedly serialize and unserialize you add arbitrarily many &amp;'s
  541. # [22:10] <The_8472> < is not valid between tags
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  543. # [22:10] <The_8472> it always has to be escaped
  544. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> The_8472, well, it's not *valid*, but in <xmp> it works.
  545. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> It's valid inside <script> or <style>.
  546. # [22:11] <The_8472> that's CDATA
  547. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> <xmp> behaves the same way as those.
  548. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> "CDATA" is not a term used by the HTML5 standard.
  549. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> But <xmp> parses the same as <script> or whatnot, its contents are made into one big text node until you hit a </xmp>.
  550. # [22:11] <The_8472> xmp is html5?
  551. # [22:11] <The_8472> i don't think so
  552. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> It's not valid, no, but the parsing behavior for it is defined.
  553. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> It's a legacy HTML feature that all browsers support.
  554. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> <plaintext> too, although that's more useless.
  555. # [22:12] <The_8472> my point is that argueing with the HTML5-parser for non-html5 data doesn't make sense
  556. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Just because it's not conforming doesn't mean it doesn't have to be supported.
  557. # [22:13] <The_8472> since the parser specifically states *where* to switch its parsing mode, e.g. for script tags
  558. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Also for xmp tags.
  559. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Anyway, this is beside the point, it's a browser bug no matter what.
  560. # [22:14] <The_8472> can't find a single mention of "xmp" in the html5 spec
  561. # [22:15] <The_8472> oh, there
  562. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#parsing-main-inbody
  563. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> Try it yourself, it works in all browsers.
  564. # [22:16] <The_8472> "Follow the generic raw text element parsing algorithm." mhh, i see
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  568. # [22:39] <jgraham> BTW I would particually like feedback from webkit people on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2011May/0007.html
  569. # [22:39] * Joins: jennb (~jennb@74.125.59.73)
  570. # [22:40] <jgraham> (well I want feedback from everyone, but Mozilla people already looked and asking Microsoft people on #whatwg seems like the definition of pointless)
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  583. # [23:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: what criteria are you using to decide what rel="" values to allow?
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  596. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> Interesting. Opera and WebKit support <pre align=right>, IE and Gecko don't.
  597. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> That seems bizarre.
  598. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> Maybe older IE supports it, and IE9 dropped support?
  599. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> (spec doesn't seem to mention it)
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  601. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> Ugh, justify* are another case where there's no way to emulate the legacy HTML attributes' effect in CSS.
  602. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> <div align=right> is very different from <div style="text-align: right">.
  603. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> Also, in this case the CSS effect is much less useful . . .
  604. # Session Close: Wed Jun 01 00:00:00 2011

The end :)