/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 08 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> w3c regularly automatically block google
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> maybe they did the same to mozilla this time for some reason
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> (it's part of their rather over-zealous DOS protections)
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  8. # [00:03] <jamesr> how do i firewalled NAT?
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  15. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> jwalden, I think what happens is that people use XML-processing programs that automatically request DTDs when processing XML files. They don't notice the four billion network requests to W3C's servers that happen every time they run through their database of XHTML files or whatever. So the W3C detects this and blocks such sites at the firewall automatically.
  16. # [00:19] <jwalden> "hoisted by their own petard", as it were
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  21. # [00:39] <Hixie> if you go to a page that serves a 500 but declares a manifest, we cache it
  22. # [00:39] <Hixie> the next time you go there, you see the cached copy, and we try to update it
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  26. # [00:40] <Hixie> but we find it's 500, so we don't update its entry in the cache (we update the rest of the cache)
  27. # [00:40] <Hixie> this continues forever, with you seeing the first 500 rather than any later updates, until it either becomes 200, 404, or 410, or the manifest becomes 410
  28. # [00:40] <Hixie> now the question is:
  29. # [00:41] <Hixie> if it's a 200 page with no-store, instead of a 500 page:
  30. # [00:41] <Hixie> should we do the same thing?
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  32. # [00:46] <Hixie> i guess i'll treat it like a 410/404
  33. # [00:47] <Hixie> which is kinda weird already
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  36. # [00:55] <AryehGregor> Hixie, wait, so there's a whole section that normatively explains authoring conformance requirements for the HTML syntax, but conformance checker requirements are totally different? What happens if there are contradictions? Conformance checkers are required to report things that aren't authoring conformance errors, or are required not to report things that are?
  37. # [00:55] <AryehGregor> (Are there known contradictions?)
  38. # [00:56] <Hixie> there had better not be contradictions
  39. # [00:56] <Hixie> technically i suppose i could have the spec not require that validators use the parser spec
  40. # [00:56] <Hixie> at the time i wrote that they should use it, i hadn't written the other section, and we already had validators
  41. # [01:02] <AlexNRoss> Speaking of validators.... I wish that W3C Jigsaw (CSS) Validator would recognise browser-specific entities such as -moz-* and -webkit-* and -ms-* and -khtml-*
  42. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> "Recognize" in what fashion?
  43. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> Claim that vendor-specific, nonstandard extensions are valid?
  44. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> Or give a more informative error message, or what?
  45. # [01:02] <AlexNRoss> In the sense that it won't give an error.
  46. # [01:02] <paul_irish_> AlexNRoss: there is an option to allow them, now
  47. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> That wouldn't make much sense, since CSS says they're invalid.
  48. # [01:02] <AlexNRoss> paul: Oh? Where's that?
  49. # [01:03] <paul_irish_> Vendor Extensions: Warnings
  50. # [01:03] <paul_irish_> http://paulirish.com/i/5e71.png
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  52. # [01:04] <AlexNRoss> paul: That still doesn't help.
  53. # [01:04] <paul_irish_> why not
  54. # [01:04] <AlexNRoss> http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2F76.11.58.232%2Fcss%2Fscreen.css&profile=css3&usermedium=all&warning=1&vextwarning=true&lang=en
  55. # [01:05] <paul_irish_> looks right to me. it doesnt recognize vendor prefixed gradient syntax
  56. # [01:05] <paul_irish_> and the others are marked as warnings
  57. # [01:06] <AlexNRoss> It's still irritable.
  58. # [01:07] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@192.42.249.62) (Quit: othermaciej)
  59. # [01:08] <paul_irish_> i will not disagree.
  60. # [01:08] <paul_irish_> AlexNRoss: the css validator team is looking for help maintaing the codebase to keep up with these changes, if you're interested
  61. # [01:09] <AlexNRoss> Sure. It is something I strive to do; keeping up to the latest in web initiatives and standardizations created by the browsers.
  62. # [01:10] <Hixie> AlexNRoss: it's supposed to be irritable. The whole point of vendor prefixes is to irritate authors so that they won't use them except when experimenting to give feedback to the working group and browser vendors.
  63. # [01:10] <paul_irish_> AlexNRoss: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator-css/ shoot a message onto this list and ask if anything could be done and how you could help
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  70. # [01:23] <zewt> Hixie: that's ... just silly, heh
  71. # [01:23] <Hixie> what's silly?
  72. # [01:24] <zewt> annoying people isn't going to stop them from using the APIs; it'll just annoy them
  73. # [01:24] <AlexNRoss> paul: I just e-mailed.
  74. # [01:24] <paul_irish_> :)
  75. # [01:24] <Hixie> zewt: how can we stop them from using the apis?
  76. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> It's already annoying enough that you have to write the same markup four times to get it to work in all browsers.
  77. # [01:24] <zewt> i've always seen the api prefixes as just to localize any dependancies on early behavior to that prefix and that vendor, so they don't have to affect the final API
  78. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> No more annoyance than that is necessary. :)
  79. # [01:24] <zewt> ... you can't, of course
  80. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> Hixie, if you want to stop them from using the APIs, then don't implement them.
  81. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> Easy.
  82. # [01:24] <Hixie> AryehGregor: we need to implement them to get implementation experience
  83. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> Then don't enable them.
  84. # [01:24] <zewt> i was annoyed when WebKit prefixed (iirc) the URL interface when it was previously unprefixed, but the only affect was to make me grumble for a minute and then update my code
  85. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Now, if you want *authoring* experience too, well, you want people using them.
  86. # [01:25] <Hixie> AryehGregor: we need to enable them to get authoring experience
  87. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Okay, so then you do want people using them.
  88. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Presumably on production sites, so they get real-world experience.
  89. # [01:25] <Hixie> to a small extent
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  91. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> To a large extent, because no matter what, only a tiny percentage of authors will provide any feedback.
  92. # [01:25] <Hixie> but they're still proprietary technologies, so we don't want them used like regular features
  93. # [01:25] <zewt> (as an addendum to the above--another point being as a clear declaration to authors that the API is unstable)
  94. # [01:25] <Hixie> anyway i'm not sure what we're arguing ehre :-)
  95. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> Anything that works will be used like a regular feature.
  96. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> If it doesn't work, it won't be used and you won't get authoring feedback.
  97. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> Take your pick.
  98. # [01:26] <Hixie> i'm happy with the current situation
  99. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> In practice authors use them and it works out fine, as long as the prefix gets dropped reasonably soon.
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  101. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> (you know, unlike border-radius)
  102. # [01:27] <Hixie> border-radius is mainly funny because it's taken so long that the trend for rounded corners has kinda passed already :-)
  103. # [01:27] <The_8472> sometimes it would be nice if feature-detection would be easier. e.g. if i have to apply some custome javascript magic for <meter> elements or if the browser already styles it for me. things like that
  104. # [01:28] <Hixie> yeah that's a harder problem without js
  105. # [01:28] <The_8472> need js to style the meter element atm. since i can't use attr() inside calc()
  106. # [01:29] <The_8472> the progress bar look has to depend on the min/max/value attributes after all
  107. # [01:30] <Hixie> if you have js it's pretty easy to just stick a class on the elements that need styling
  108. # [01:30] <The_8472> yeah
  109. # [01:30] <The_8472> but you need to figure out if the browser doesn't do it already for you
  110. # [01:31] <The_8472> or think of input[type=number] ... do i add a spinner manually or does the browser already provide one?
  111. # [01:33] <The_8472> modernizr helps with most things though
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  117. # [01:42] <heycam> jwalden, I'm told the w3.org/Bugs/ access is fixed now
  118. # [01:42] <heycam> jwalden, something to do with their preparations for world ipv6 day -- from the mozilla network is was connecting via ipv6
  119. # [01:43] <jwalden> heh
  120. # [01:44] * jwalden is not quite certain that making a spec change that suddenly declares common wordpress templates not-valid is a good idea, but meh
  121. # [01:44] <jwalden> I can probably update my templates in about five minutes to remove it, if I feel motivated
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  123. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> Aren't lots of the common Wordpress templates invalid anyway?
  124. # [01:51] <Hixie> heycam: oh that makes sense, google's network is also ipv6
  125. # [01:52] <The_8472> still 11 minutes to v6 day
  126. # [01:53] <Hixie> oh wow that's today?
  127. # [01:53] <Hixie> i had no idea
  128. # [01:53] * AryehGregor watches the process argument between othermaciej and Roy T. Fielding with interest
  129. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> Aw, I'm going to miss the start of IPv6 day by a matter of minutes. Oh well, no helping it.
  130. # [01:54] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I'm gonna have to duck out cause I can only spend so much time in email during WWDC
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  132. # [01:55] <jwalden> AryehGregor: plausible
  133. # [01:56] * jwalden knows he's barely touched his as far as validity's concerned in ages
  134. # [01:56] <jwalden> had to fiddle with a [caption] shortcode I implemented to wrap up figure/figcaption, but I was well aware I was on the bleeding edge doing that
  135. # [01:56] <jwalden> which was figure/legend when I first wrote it
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  268. # [08:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: I notice that the microdata vocabularies use microformats.org URLs. What kind of Microformat community participation was there when formulating the Microdata versions of the vocabs?
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  296. # [09:46] <Akilo> héhé
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  298. # [09:46] * Akilo impressioné par la déco ;)
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  349. # [12:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: You there?
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  368. # [13:02] <kost-bebix> Hi everyone! Hope someone will help me) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/html5lib-discuss/MOvXMzQRMzE
  369. # [13:07] <Workshiva> Keep in mind that this makes you vulnerable if there's a redirection servlet on youtube.com
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  372. # [13:15] <jgraham> kost-bebix: Umm, I would probably have to look over the sanitizer code a bit to help you, which I don't really have time to do right this moment
  373. # [13:16] <kost-bebix> Workshiva: no, in future (if that would work) I'd just take by [a-zA-Z0-9] regexp youtube video ID and build <iframe> "from scratch"
  374. # [13:17] <kost-bebix> jgraham: it's not sanitizer. I mean, sanitizer works like it should. It returns this token for youtube one and "data" token (where iframe is a text) as text one
  375. # [13:17] <kost-bebix> jgraham: it's serializer, i guess
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  378. # [13:18] <jgraham> kost-bebix: I think you need to allow the first </iframe> you see after the <iframe> you allow
  379. # [13:19] <jgraham> It does look like there might be another bug in the serializer, but that should fix the issue for you
  380. # [13:19] <kost-bebix> jgraham: i did that, don't remember what was the result, but still, will that be safe? I mean, if there won't be any closing tag or something?
  381. # [13:20] * kost-bebix went doing that first iframe thing
  382. # [13:21] <jgraham> Well it's a bit hard. If something else already closed the iframe you could end up with a stray </iframe>. But I don't think that should be harmful unless you are outputting this inside another iframe
  383. # [13:21] <kost-bebix> or some content inside that iframe
  384. # [13:22] <jgraham> Anyway, what you have there can't work
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  386. # [13:27] <kost-bebix> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/402719/
  387. # [13:28] <kost-bebix> ok, I'll just put some extra testing on that in next couple minutes
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  390. # [13:35] <danbri> hsivonen, thanks for writing up http://hsivonen.iki.fi/schema-org-and-communities/ :)
  391. # [13:35] <danbri> can't say I entirely agree on all points, but it's good to have your perspective there so clearly
  392. # [13:35] <hsivonen> danbri: you're welcome
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  394. # [13:36] <danbri> (for example, after FB launched opengraph with their own made-up vocab, loads of rdf folk were quite bothered by that too, ... and by 'pedantic web' issues such as that the OG properties were technically written in rdfa to make them properties of the page, ... not the thing-that-the-page-describes...
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  396. # [13:37] <danbri> but fortunately a lot of that energy got channeled into collab w/ fb folk on mappings etc, rather than ranting about corporate evil
  397. # [13:37] <hsivonen> danbri: there might be a big difference between long-time RDF folks and RDFa folks who are eager to see adoption of RDFa
  398. # [13:37] <danbri> you're quite right of course that if schema.org were using rdfa, ... it would be being celebrated by rdf folk more heavily now. Still it's been welcomed by a bunch of us...
  399. # [13:37] <danbri> yeah maybe
  400. # [13:38] <danbri> i wouldn't mind if schema.org used microdata, i just use toby inkster's parser and treat it as rdf ...
  401. # [13:38] <danbri> ... but it does bug me that they say 'don't use microformats or rdfa'
  402. # [13:38] <danbri> googlebing can probably afford to parse both
  403. # [13:39] * danbri wonders how small the design gap between microdata and 1.1 flavour of rdfa really is
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  405. # [13:39] <danbri> the example in http://schema.org/docs/datamodel.html is encouraging
  406. # [13:39] <hsivonen> danbri: the gap is probably rather small for RDFa 1.1 with certain syntax options
  407. # [13:40] <hsivonen> as I said in the blog post, part of the problem with RDFa are the rest of the syntax options
  408. # [13:40] <hsivonen> danbri: the data model gap is large
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  410. # [13:40] <danbri> do you have a feel for a what an 'rdfa1.1-lite' microdata-esque profile might look like?
  411. # [13:41] <kost-bebix> jgraham: thanks for your help anyway)
  412. # [13:41] <danbri> data model: 'cos properties are bundled with types in microdata?
  413. # [13:41] <hsivonen> danbri: it would be awesome if googlebing could afford to write down how to consume microformats and stuff claimed to be RDFa but that isn't :-)
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  415. # [13:41] <hsivonen> danbri: tree vs. graph
  416. # [13:41] <hsivonen> danbri: I don't have a good feel about the looks of a profile
  417. # [13:42] <danbri> when properties in the tree have URI values, ... different trees that mention the same things can be joined / aggregated to form a graph ... that's enough for me
  418. # [13:44] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYYMYCLXXXVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  419. # [13:46] <danbri> is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#microdata the latest, greatest version of the microdata spec?
  420. # [13:46] <hsivonen> danbri: yes
  421. # [13:47] <danbri> from that link ... 'Properties can also have values that are URLs' seems enough to make graphs
  422. # [13:47] * danbri assumes relative URIs are allowed, which should help verbosity
  423. # [13:48] <hsivonen> danbri: there URLs are Web addresses. they aren't the abstract kind of URLs that occur as RDF predicates
  424. # [13:48] <hsivonen> danbri: or RDF objects
  425. # [13:49] <hsivonen> in Microdata, an item is more like a bnode and a URL can be be one of its properties
  426. # [13:49] <hsivonen> danbri: like in the licensing case, the URL of the work is a property of the item
  427. # [13:49] <danbri> yup
  428. # [13:50] <hsivonen> instead of the item itself being the URL
  429. # [13:50] <danbri> this reminds me of the old Microsoft SOAP graph data model; it doesn't privilege URI identifiers as special node labels; if you want 'em, you have to put them in as properties explicitly
  430. # [13:50] <danbri> just like any other data
  431. # [13:50] <danbri> benefit there is you can more easily have two urls (uris, ahem whatever) for same entity
  432. # [13:51] <danbri> http://schema.org/docs/gs.html Here is the book's <a itemprop="url" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Catcher_in_the_Rye">Wikipedia page</a>. ... so that's ok
  433. # [13:51] <danbri> and if another part of the page had 'Dan's favourite book is <a itemprop="faveBook" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Catcher_in_the_Rye">Catcher in the Rye</a>. '
  434. # [13:52] <danbri> ...the nodes would join, but the descriptions would be in terms of pages about the book, not some more abstract "identifier for the book itself". right?
  435. # [13:52] <danbri> so it's a graph but a graph that encourages the nodes to be modelled as Web pages not real-world-things
  436. # [13:58] <hsivonen> danbri: in the Microdata model, the nodes wouldn't join
  437. # [13:58] <hsivonen> danbri: mapped to RDF, I suppose they would
  438. # [13:58] <danbri> that sounds reasonable
  439. # [13:58] <danbri> an editor built over a document DOM wouldn't want them joined; but a query answering system might
  440. # [14:01] <danbri> btw this Perl works to parse and query schema.org's schema as rdf: https://gist.github.com/1012713
  441. # [14:01] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  442. # [14:01] <danbri> ...with a bit more fiddling -> http://foaf.tv/tellyclub/schema.org/protovis-3.2/ex/den3.html (ok unreadable, but a start on visualizing the chaos)
  443. # [14:06] <hsivonen> it will be interesting to see how the taxonomy of everything (down to BowlingAlley and TattooParlor) works out
  444. # [14:07] <danbri> the sooner they bridge it to wikipedia/dbpedia or freebase the saner it'll be
  445. # [14:07] <danbri> that was one reason i tried the radial visualization ... to show an outer layer from those sources, when the mappings come thru
  446. # [14:07] <danbri> hmm reading spec, ... is itemscope always needed? does presence of an itemtype imply a new scope?
  447. # [14:09] <hsivonen> danbri: afaict, it's not implied
  448. # [14:09] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  449. # [14:09] <hsivonen> that may have something to do with the usability test
  450. # [14:09] <danbri> 'The relevant type for a typed item is the item's item type, if it has one, or else is the relevant type of the item for which it is a property's value.' --> say that 3 times fast after a couple of drinks :)
  451. # [14:12] <danbri> ah 'The itemtype attribute must not be specified on elements that do not have an itemscope attribute specified.', ... seems itemscope is needed then, yup.
  452. # [14:14] * danbri notices that properties are partially ordered (same-name properties remember their order); again something that wouldn't pass into the rdf representation... guess that's ok?
  453. # [14:14] <Workshiva> hsivonen: Are you interested in editorial bugs in your schema.org text?
  454. # [14:15] <hsivonen> Workshiva: yes
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  460. # [14:25] <Workshiva> People sure like confusing microdata and the schema.org vocabulary with each other
  461. # [14:29] <hsivonen> Workshiva: did I?
  462. # [14:29] <Workshiva> No, other people did
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  464. # [14:31] * danbri sends whatwg mail re microdata data model
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  474. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> anybody know where the editors draft of http://www.w3.org/TR/animation-timing/ is at?
  475. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> heycam: ↑
  476. # [14:55] <karlcow> MikeSmith: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/ ?
  477. # [14:56] <karlcow> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/file/8bf49567d58d/specs/NavigationTiming
  478. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> karlcow: yup
  479. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> thanks
  480. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/RequestAnimationFrame/Overview.html
  481. # [14:57] <karlcow> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/file/tip/specs/NavigationTiming/Overview.html
  482. # [14:58] <karlcow> :)
  483. # [14:58] <karlcow> my inner brain search engine
  484. # [14:58] <karlcow> :p
  485. # [15:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: am now
  486. # [15:03] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@212.226.0.66)
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  489. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> reading "if the Sponsors have patent claims that are necessarily infringed by including markup of structured data in a webpage, where the markup is based on and strictly complies with the Schema, they grant an option to receive a license under reasonable and non-discriminatory terms without royalty"
  490. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> and then, "solely for the purpose of including markup of structured data in a webpage, where the markup is based on and strictly complies with the Schema"
  491. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> does that mean if I build schema.org vocab support into a product -- e.g., an editing application -- that I don't necessarily get granted a royalty-free license?
  492. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> that is, I only get granted a royalty-free license if I am the published of the content that contains the markup?
  493. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> and incidentally, what does "receive a license under reasonable and non-discriminatory terms without royalty" mean?
  494. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> isn't that an oxymoron?
  495. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> why not just say, "receive a royalty-free license"?
  496. # [15:12] <Philip`> You could have unreasonable terms that don't require a royalty but do require something else
  497. # [15:12] <kost-bebix> when you make iframe acceptable everything inside becomes allowed? Please help https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/html5lib-discuss/X5UY6JITmJU
  498. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> Philip`: OK
  499. # [15:13] * Philip` is just guessing, though
  500. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> I don't think I've ever seen the words "reasonable and non-discriminatory" used in any royalty-free license statement
  501. # [15:16] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing says "The RAND-Z (RAND with zero royalty) or RAND-RF (RAND Royalty Free) licensing means that the company promises to license the technology at no charge, but implementers still have to get the licenser's permission to implement."
  502. # [15:18] <Philip`> kost-bebix: Anything inside <iframe> is parsed as text, not as markup, so <iframe><script>... means an iframe element containing the text "<script>"
  503. # [15:19] <karlcow> it is a question of respiration… everything will go through at one point.
  504. # [15:20] <kost-bebix> Philip`: oh, so that should be safe?
  505. # [15:20] * Philip` has absolutely no idea what karlcow is talking about
  506. # [15:20] <karlcow> rand license
  507. # [15:20] <kost-bebix> Philip`: oh, sorry, that can't be safe))
  508. # [15:21] <Philip`> kost-bebix: It's safe since it'll never create a script element (unless you accidentally parse the document as XHTML instead of as text/html)
  509. # [15:22] <kost-bebix> Philip`: so this code is ok? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/html5lib-discuss/MOvXMzQRMzE
  510. # [15:22] <kost-bebix> Philip`: if I'll return not just token, but some safe <iframe> structure?
  511. # [15:26] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  512. # [15:26] <jgraham> If it creates </iframe> inside the iframe without escaping that is a bug
  513. # [15:28] <kost-bebix> jgraham: thanks for tip. So I should just close next /iframe I see and everything should be (at least now) safe and bugless?
  514. # [15:29] <Philip`> Is it actually possible to escape the text "</iframe>" in an iframe?
  515. # [15:30] <Philip`> It seems to be RAWTEXT so I don't think you can
  516. # [15:30] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  517. # [15:30] <Philip`> Also the point of the fallback content is to be for browsers that don't support iframe, and it's not much good if your sanitizer produces content that falls back to something dangerous in such browsers
  518. # [15:30] <kost-bebix> Philip`: I think it should be just stripped out maybe? Or spec says it should be there?
  519. # [15:32] <kost-bebix> Philip`: all I need is a sanitizer that doesn't strip out <iframe>'s that have src="http://www.youtube.com... . I thought that's quite popular problem)
  520. # [15:32] <Philip`> I expect the safer thing to do is for the sanitizer to maintain some "is currently in iframe" flag, which is set when you accept a YouTube iframe start token; then if you see an iframe end token while that flag is set, you accept the token and reset the flag; and if you see anything else while that flag is set (including text tokens) you reject them
  521. # [15:33] <kost-bebix> Philip`: yeah, that's what I did and that seems to work
  522. # [15:33] <kost-bebix> Philip`: I was just looking at that <script> inside <iframe> that wasn't escaped anymore
  523. # [15:33] <kost-bebix> and thought that's a bug and insecure
  524. # [15:34] <Philip`> Explicitly dropping the fallback content inside the iframe element seems the best way to be secure here
  525. # [15:34] <jgraham> I think the important point is to reject anything other than </iframe> tokens once you see an iframe you want to accept
  526. # [15:34] <Philip`> rather than relying on escaping
  527. # [15:34] <kost-bebix> jgraham: good point, i'll do that)
  528. # [15:38] <kost-bebix> works like a charm http://paste.pocoo.org/show/402771/
  529. # [15:38] <kost-bebix> thank you everyone ))
  530. # [15:39] <Philip`> You should probably just make next_iframe_safe a field of the HTMLSanitizerMixin class
  531. # [15:39] * Quits: _jgr (~jgr@CPE-58-165-74-97.qld.bigpond.net.au) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  532. # [15:40] <kost-bebix> Philip`: maybe. At that time I didn't know how instance of that is created. Thanks.
  533. # [15:40] <Philip`> especially since it won't get reset to False if you parse a document that omits the </iframe>
  534. # [15:40] <kost-bebix> oh, yeah, that's true
  535. # [15:49] <kost-bebix> class HTMLTokenizer should be newstyle class
  536. # [15:50] * Quits: Ankheg (~Ankheg@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru) (Quit: Leaving.)
  537. # [15:52] <kost-bebix> and do super(HTMLTokenizer, self).__init__()
  538. # [15:52] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: It's slower.
  539. # [15:52] <foolip> Philip`, <video> is still in the iframe section: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#the-video-element
  540. # [15:52] <foolip> I like this kind of BTS :)
  541. # [15:53] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: but thanks to that I can't make my sanitizer mixin's __init__() that does self.next_iframe_safe = False
  542. # [15:53] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
  543. # [15:53] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: if you use multiple inheritance you should use newstyle classes
  544. # [15:54] <kost-bebix> otherwise your constructor won't be called)
  545. # [15:54] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: Blame Philip` :)
  546. # [15:54] <Philip`> Why me? :-(
  547. # [15:55] <kost-bebix> Philip`: so what about adding that? (1. making HTMLTokenizer new-style 2. calling super(HTMLTokenizer, self).__init__()) ?
  548. # [15:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: Didn't you change it to being an old-style class?
  549. # [15:55] <Philip`> gsnedders: How should I remember something like that? :-p
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  555. # [15:56] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: where can I read about slowness?
  556. # [15:57] <kost-bebix> and please someone tell me should I search for that or it will always be old style class?
  557. # [15:57] <kost-bebix> )
  558. # [15:57] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  559. # [15:57] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/detail?r=decbf3278e3b197865b76fc30860b3a88c618813&path=/python/src/html5lib/inputstream.py
  560. # [15:57] <Philip`> Oh, it was me
  561. # [15:58] <kost-bebix> > (It seems unlikely that anyone will be depending on the new-style class
  562. # [15:58] <kost-bebix> semantics here.)
  563. # [15:58] <kost-bebix> haha)
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  565. # [15:59] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: It was done by Philip` benchmarking it with the HTML5 spec, I believe. :P
  566. # [16:00] <kost-bebix> ok, I'll just try to do that withoug mixining (multiple inheritance) somehow, or something else
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  568. # [16:01] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: You can see how big the perf difference is. If it's not too big, I have no objection to changes it back.
  569. # [16:01] <kost-bebix> found the dirty solution: write __init__ that sets
  570. # [16:01] <kost-bebix> self.next_iframe_safe = False
  571. # [16:01] <kost-bebix> for HTMLSanitizer, do the rest in Mixin
  572. # [16:01] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: yeah, that's big (10-15%) for parser like this
  573. # [16:02] <Philip`> Maybe newer Pythons are faster and have less of a difference
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  575. # [16:02] * Philip` has no idea what affects the performance
  576. # [16:02] <jgraham> Maybe PyPy is the future!
  577. # [16:02] <Philip`> Hasn't it been the future since about a decade ago?
  578. # [16:02] <kost-bebix> it's like a year of linux on desktop
  579. # [16:02] <jgraham> Yeah, but now it seems to actually work, which is nice.
  580. # [16:02] * Philip` wonders if it's actually usable for real yet
  581. # [16:03] <jgraham> I should try it I guess
  582. # [16:03] <gsnedders> PyPy JIT makes html5lib quick, at least
  583. # [16:03] <kost-bebix> ok, here's the resulting code http://paste.pocoo.org/show/402784/
  584. # [16:03] <kost-bebix> yeah, pypy is nice, my home projects run on that
  585. # [16:03] <kost-bebix> (still it's slow for things like intensive work with mongodb, since there's BSON encoder written in C)
  586. # [16:04] <kost-bebix> thank you everyone again
  587. # [16:07] <Workshiva> 2011 really is the year of linux on the desktop, now that it runs in the browser
  588. # [16:07] <gsnedders> Workshiva: (on little endian arches)
  589. # [16:09] <Philip`> (How many big-endian desktops are there?)
  590. # [16:09] <gsnedders> Philip`: (Mostly old Macs, I guess)
  591. # [16:10] <Philip`> (Do any modern browsers still support old Macs?)
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  595. # [16:16] <kost-bebix> Philip`: only firefox 3.6, but maybe 5.0 will be
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  597. # [16:21] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: have you tried using __slots__ in that test?
  598. # [16:21] <kost-bebix> or that doesn't help?
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  605. # [16:33] <danbri> foolip, http://foolip.org/microdatajs/ http://foolip.org/microdatajs/live/ is handy! care to put some opensource license statement on the code?
  606. # [16:33] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: For perf? I haven't at least.
  607. # [16:34] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: yeah, for perf
  608. # [16:34] <kost-bebix> i don't remember what happens to inheritance with __slots__ (need to read), but it should be faster
  609. # [16:34] <foolip> danbri, https://gitorious.org/microdatajs/microdatajs/blobs/master/LICENSE
  610. # [16:35] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: Feel free to test/create bug with patch
  611. # [16:35] <foolip> perhaps a link from the demo to the git repo would be in order...
  612. # [16:35] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: is it somewhere in source repository?
  613. # [16:35] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: On Google Code
  614. # [16:35] <danbri> thanks foolip!
  615. # [16:35] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: ok, thanks. I'll do my best
  616. # [16:35] <danbri> yes please
  617. # [16:35] <danbri> do you consider it up-to-date re latest whatwg spec?
  618. # [16:36] <foolip> mostly, yes
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  620. # [16:36] <foolip> I've deliberately not implemented the logic the spec suggests for eliminating itemref loops, because I don't think it makes sense
  621. # [16:36] <foolip> and the guy implementing it natively in Opera sent out feedback on that topic today, so it's likely to change again
  622. # [16:37] <danbri> do you implement property value order preservation?
  623. # [16:38] <danbri> -> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-June/031959.html ""Within an item, the properties are unordered with respect to each other""
  624. # [16:39] <foolip> danbri, yes, they will be in tree-order because that's the order the algorithm crawls
  625. # [16:39] <danbri> ok, so you don't respect itemref there either?
  626. # [16:39] <foolip> itemref is followed and tree order is preserved even then
  627. # [16:39] <foolip> the only thing about itemref is when you have loops (which is invalid)
  628. # [16:40] <foolip> the spec suggests one complicated way of ensuring that they aren't exposed to the API, and I've implemented another, which is probably different in minute ways
  629. # [16:40] <foolip> unless you plan to write invalid markup with itemref loops, I wouldn't worry about it
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  631. # [16:40] <danbri> in 5.2.3 Names: the itemprop attribute the 4th example, ... you get ', the "a" property has the values "1" and "2"' ?
  632. # [16:40] <zcorpan> http://remysharp.com/2011/06/08/link-elements-block-dom-parsing-too/ - i'm pretty sure no browser blocks parsing for <link>, but how to prove it with black-box testing?
  633. # [16:41] <danbri> i'm curious how much meaning publishers will expose thru this ordering mechanism, eg. a list of authors ranked by importance...
  634. # [16:41] <foolip> danbri, try pasting it into http://foolip.org/microdatajs/ and look at the JSON view
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  636. # [16:41] <zcorpan> apparently DOMContentLoaded/readyState waits for the stylesheet
  637. # [16:41] <foolip> (or give me a direct link to the example :)
  638. # [16:42] * danbri finds closest anchor - > http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#names:-the-itemprop-attribute
  639. # [16:42] * jgraham should try to follow the loops duscussion
  640. # [16:42] <jgraham> *discussion
  641. # [16:42] <danbri> ok it fails
  642. # [16:42] <jgraham> Presumably it is a requirement to be able to say that A is a friend of B and B is a friend of A
  643. # [16:43] <foolip> danbri, did you find a bug?
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  646. # [16:43] <danbri> i think so... how does https://gist.github.com/1014546 seem to you?
  647. # [16:43] <danbri> ...you're supposed to go chasing the reference first, it seems
  648. # [16:44] <foolip> I think the example is wrong
  649. # [16:44] <foolip> or I have not understood the crawling algorithm
  650. # [16:45] <danbri> could you check opera's internal impl too?
  651. # [16:45] <foolip> I'm not involved with that, but I can ask that they check this example
  652. # [16:45] <danbri> thanks
  653. # [16:46] <foolip> in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#crawl-the-properties you'll see that step 6 is "Sort results in tree order."
  654. # [16:46] <foolip> I'll also file a spec bug then
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  656. # [16:48] <danbri> can you post a link here when you do?
  657. # [16:50] <foolip> yes
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  659. # [16:55] <foolip> danbri, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12911
  660. # [16:55] <danbri> thanks :)
  661. # [16:56] <kost-bebix> I don't get it. I do hg clone https://html5lib.googlecode.com/hg/ html5lib , and in your file there's no parser= attr http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/python/src/html5lib/html5parser.py?r=decbf3278e3b197865b76fc30860b3a88c618813#87 , but in mine there is one (and tests fail).
  662. # [16:56] <kost-bebix> Branch is default.
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  666. # [16:59] <jgraham> kost-bebix: You have latest tip?
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  668. # [16:59] <kost-bebix> jgraham: 1702:7d147d0cb759
  669. # [16:59] <kost-bebix> hg log -l 1 shows me latest one
  670. # [16:59] <kost-bebix> (changeset)
  671. # [16:59] <kost-bebix> that's strange
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  673. # [17:04] <kost-bebix> jgraham: oh, sorry, I think I looked at older file at google code (didn't use google code to view sources before)
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  677. # [17:09] <kost-bebix> ok, so still, I run html5lib/tests/test_sanitizer.py and it gives me a bit bunch of errors like this http://paste.pocoo.org/show/402835/
  678. # [17:09] <kost-bebix> am I doing something wrong or is it broken?
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  680. # [17:11] <kost-bebix> self.tokenizer_class is html5lib.sanitizer.HTMLSanitizer at that point of failure
  681. # [17:12] <kost-bebix> and it really doesn't take any parser argument)
  682. # [17:12] <jgraham> It is quite possible that test has bitrotted
  683. # [17:14] <gsnedders> Almost certainly I broke it, I expect
  684. # [17:14] <gsnedders> If it wasn't broken before, that is :P
  685. # [17:15] <kost-bebix> oh, I ran that test by mistake)
  686. # [17:15] <kost-bebix> what I needed is test_tokenizer.py as I understand
  687. # [17:15] <kost-bebix> :-D
  688. # [17:17] <kost-bebix> on new-style HTMLTokenizer tests run about the same time
  689. # [17:17] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: They're not going to show the cost difference, really. Try tokenizing the spec.
  690. # [17:18] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: sorry, tokenizing the spec?
  691. # [17:18] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: As in the HTML5 spec
  692. # [17:19] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: you mean like take super-big html page and parse it 100 times and count how fast was that?
  693. # [17:19] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: Parse it once. It takes long enough. :)
  694. # [17:19] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: ok)
  695. # [17:20] <gsnedders> Now, go annoy other people, seeming I'm heading out into town. (And no, you're not actually annoying.)
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  699. # [17:24] <foolip> danbri, license and link now added to http://foolip.org/microdatajs/live/ (and some other minor fixes committed)
  700. # [17:24] <danbri> great, thanks!
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  702. # [17:25] * danbri hopes jenit might integrate it with rdfquery js library
  703. # [17:25] <jgraham> gsnedders: You were supposed to be code reviewing for me dammit!
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  710. # [17:34] <kost-bebix> oh, so it looks like it's really-really broken now) not just tests
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  713. # [17:39] <kost-bebix> I've updated to tag 0.90 and there isn't even __init__.py there. hmm..
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  716. # [17:45] <jgraham> I wouldn't look at 0.9 or anything other than tip
  717. # [17:48] <kost-bebix> real 0m41.488s
  718. # [17:48] <kost-bebix> user 0m40.560s
  719. # [17:48] <kost-bebix> sys 0m0.590s
  720. # [17:48] <kost-bebix> real 0m39.232s
  721. # [17:48] <kost-bebix> user 0m37.820s
  722. # [17:48] <kost-bebix> sys 0m0.800s
  723. # [17:48] <kost-bebix> maybe I did something wrong
  724. # [17:49] <kost-bebix> but new-style classes seem faster
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  728. # [17:51] <kost-bebix> no, looks like it's all correct
  729. # [17:51] <kost-bebix> code: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/402862/
  730. # [17:52] <kost-bebix> file:
  731. # [17:52] <kost-bebix> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
  732. # [17:54] <kost-bebix> hmm
  733. # [17:54] <kost-bebix> pypy
  734. # [17:54] <kost-bebix> real 0m38.438s
  735. # [17:54] <kost-bebix> user 0m37.590s
  736. # [17:54] <kost-bebix> sys 0m0.350s
  737. # [17:54] <kost-bebix> I definitely do something wrong
  738. # [17:54] <kost-bebix> anyway
  739. # [17:54] <kost-bebix> see you tomorrow, maybe we'll discuss it)
  740. # [17:54] <kost-bebix> thanks for help
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  755. # [18:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm sorry, but I like food.
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  775. # [19:58] <asmodai> Mmm, the 3DS' browser scores 101 on the html5test.com site
  776. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> What a broken site that is, too
  777. # [20:02] <asmodai> In what sense?
  778. # [20:03] <gsnedders> asmodai: The points given to things is random, it tests things not in HTML5 (e.g., H.264 support)
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  780. # [20:03] <asmodai> Ah
  781. # [20:03] <asmodai> Mmm, oh, the 3DS browser's built on NetFront
  782. # [20:04] <gsnedders> WTF?
  783. # [20:04] <gsnedders> And it does that well?
  784. # [20:04] <asmodai> *chuckle*
  785. # [20:04] <asmodai> Well enough it seems
  786. # [20:04] <gsnedders> asmodai: Try running the jQuery testsuite in it.
  787. # [20:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: I thought netfront used webkit these days
  788. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Also, promotes the broken kind of implementations webkit usually ships
  789. # [20:05] <asmodai> gsnedders: http://view.jquery.com/tags/1.3.2/test/ ?
  790. # [20:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: They have two browsers.
  791. # [20:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also, to be fair, (I don't plan to make a habit of it, don't worry) it lists H.264 as a bonus point
  792. # [20:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: One of which uses WebKit, this is true.
  793. # [20:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: Their own is still diabolical (myself and Tarquin were playing around with this a couple of months back).
  794. # [20:06] <gsnedders> asmodai: Go for 1.6
  795. # [20:06] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Yeah, it generally screws around with browser prioritization. Yay marketing…
  796. # [20:07] <asmodai> Ah duh, of course
  797. # [20:07] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  798. # [20:07] <jgraham> The main problem with html5test.com is that the tests are extremely shallow so favour crappy implementations over honesty, and the scoring system is exhibit A in the case against ranking browsers based on test scores
  799. # [20:07] <jgraham> s/is/are/
  800. # [20:07] <jgraham> s/problem/problems/
  801. # [20:08] <jgraham> (the points-per-feature aren't correlated to dificulty of implementation or usefulness to authors or, as far as I can tell, much of anything at all)
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  803. # [20:12] <asmodai> gsnedders: Trying to locate the 1.6 test suite :S
  804. # [20:16] <asmodai> http://jquery.bassistance.de/validate/test/?jquery=1.6.1 <-- this one?
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  806. # [20:19] <gsnedders> asmodai: that'll do
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  808. # [20:20] <asmodai> gsnedders: 613 passed of 613
  809. # [20:21] <jgraham> (that is a test for the validate plugin not for jQuery itself)
  810. # [20:21] <gsnedders> asmodai: Definely WebKit/NetFront then
  811. # [20:21] <gsnedders> jgraham: (Yes, but NetFront's own browser is so broken with jQuery it'd totally break)
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  813. # [20:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: none, the url was just what tantek asked me to use
  814. # [20:25] <asmodai> gsnedders: that's positive in a way
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  816. # [20:26] <gsnedders> asmodai: Yeah, definitely. I think they still push their own engine primarily on platforms that need memory safety, or at least that's my guess.
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  818. # [20:27] <jgraham> I imagine they will quietly drop their own engine
  819. # [20:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: And drop everywhere they sell to which needs OOM handling? I doubt it was a small amount they got paid for, e.g., the PS3.
  820. # [20:29] <jgraham> It seems very unlikely that there will continue to be a market for browsers that don't work on any useful websites
  821. # [20:30] <jgraham> Anyway if Webkit is acceptable for 3DS I have a hard time believing that next generation consoles couldn't run presto/webkit/gecko
  822. # [20:30] <jgraham> Or that a mini-like solution wouldn't be better if they really can't
  823. # [20:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, for the PS3 it's an interesting question why not. It has a HDD, so could quite easily have swap space, which I presume is what is done in the 3DS.
  824. # [20:32] <asmodai> Ok, so what would be a better test to see what this little browser does support or not? It seems it uses a sandboxed iframe at least, that's nice
  825. # [20:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: But still, a lot of products that could trivially run a proper browser (e.g., PS3) just want a browser as a selling point, not caring if it works.
  826. # [20:34] <gsnedders> NetFront claims a min memory footprint of 2MB, which is insane.
  827. # [20:35] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  828. # [20:37] <gsnedders> (For comparison, Opera Devices SDK 2.8 claims 7MB footprint on ARM, with 2–15MB per runtime, 1–5MB per widget, 2–10MB per tab.)
  829. # [20:38] <gsnedders> (<http://www.opera.com/media/b2b/Opera_Devices_SDK_PS.pdf>)
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  832. # [20:41] <asmodai> gsnedders: insane in what they claim is min?
  833. # [20:41] <asmodai> (as in impossible?)
  834. # [20:42] <gsnedders> asmodai: Well, there's a very obvious reason why they manage to reach such a low number (it doesn't work with anything).
  835. # [20:44] <wilhelm> I worked on a couple of devices with 8-16 MB RAM around 2004. It worked great, until you loaded an image-heavy site. (c:
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  852. # [21:47] <hober> hsivonen: #schema here on freenode for the http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/SemTech2011BOF going on right now
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  859. # [22:38] <mpilgrim> here's an odd request: i need some problematic javascript strings
  860. # [22:38] <mpilgrim> are there any unicode characters disallowed in javascript?
  861. # [22:39] <mpilgrim> or characters that are allowed but that might trip up a storage system?
  862. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> I hear some browsers dislike nulls
  863. # [22:40] <RichardJ> mpilgrim: try any unicode character that is not in the basic multilangual plane
  864. # [22:40] <mpilgrim> null is good
  865. # [22:40] <mpilgrim> how do i denote a non-BMP character in javascript?
  866. # [22:41] <Philip`> JS is sort of UTF-16
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  868. # [22:41] <Philip`> so you need a string of length 2, like "\ud800\udc00" or whatever the syntax is
  869. # [22:41] <RichardJ> strings *should* be encoded in UTF-16
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  871. # [22:42] <Philip`> You could include things like unpaired surrogates to trip up any storage system that foolishly thinks JS strings are really UTF-16
  872. # [22:42] <RichardJ> I believe some testsuites (like ACID3 perhaps) have tests for this as well
  873. # [22:43] <Philip`> U+FFFE and U+FFFF are always fun, too
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  875. # [22:44] <Philip`> If string length isn't too limited, you could just use a string with all 64K possible character values
  876. # [22:44] <mpilgrim> checking if string length is limited...
  877. # [22:44] <Philip`> or 64K one-character strings
  878. # [22:45] <mpilgrim> "any string value"
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  894. # [23:20] <karlcow> http://inliner.leftlogic.com/
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  900. # [23:35] <linclark> hsivonen: read your blog post, I have a question about your graph data model comment
  901. # [23:35] <linclark> I would have left a comment on the post, but I didn't see the option
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  904. # [23:42] <jgraham> linclark: hsivonen is probably sleeping for the next 7 hours or so
  905. # [23:42] <linclark> jgraham: ah cool, thanks
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  909. # Session Close: Thu Jun 09 00:00:00 2011

The end :)