/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 15 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [01:15] <Hixie> uh oh
  24. # [01:15] <Hixie> another parser change
  25. # [01:16] <Hixie> pretty minor, but still
  26. # [01:16] <Hixie> (nulls in mathml <mo>, <mn>, etc)
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  39. # [01:50] <beowulf> hi, what part of a browser handles window.innerWidth values? is it anything to do with the js engine (by that I mean, V8 or Nitro, or what have you)?
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  41. # [02:01] <Hixie> no
  42. # [02:02] <beowulf> ta
  43. # [02:11] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2011Jan/0057.html
  44. # [02:11] <Hixie> "ad hoc checker" o_O
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  82. # [03:07] <TabAtkins_> Suppose that I wanted to define a feature such that UAs could scan the content of a page, determine what codepoints are used, and then lazily request only the necessary codepoints from a font via some variant of range requests.
  83. # [03:07] <TabAtkins_> What group would I talk to about this?
  84. # [03:07] <erlehmann> this sounds crazy.
  85. # [03:08] <TabAtkins_> Irrelevant to my question. ^_^
  86. # [03:08] <erlehmann> let me check if it is feasible.
  87. # [03:09] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: CSS3 Fonts defines fetching behaviour? Or not?
  88. # [03:09] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: No.
  89. # [03:09] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: Also, what happens if I mutate the DOM and add more codepoints?
  90. # [03:10] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: Not my problem directly. I'm asking for a friend. Presumably, additional requests.
  91. # [03:10] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: I guess www-style is as good a place as any…
  92. # [03:11] <TabAtkins_> We were thinking of starting with www-font, but this is barely an issue about fonts themselves. It's a protocol issue, mainly, as the important part is the codepoint-range request.
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  95. # [03:17] <erlehmann> TabAtkins_, is it really a protocol issue? i remember range requests working quite well with ogg media.
  96. # [03:19] <TabAtkins_> erlehmann: Kinda? Not sure how you'd handle it without protocol changes, unless you have a format where you can predict the codepoint locations.
  97. # [03:19] <erlehmann> TabAtkins_, that is the question, if you can do that. i tried to look it up but i am dizzy. it is 3:15AM local time, i go to sleep.
  98. # [03:20] <erlehmann> s/if/whether/g
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  107. # [04:03] <roc> TabAtkins: the group depends on how you want to do this
  108. # [04:04] <roc> you should ask your "friend" if they can get by with hand-subsetted fonts and unicode-range
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  110. # [04:05] <TabAtkins> roc: The idea is to pursue this as a line of experimentation for Chrome, so apparently the answer is no. ^_^
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  113. # [04:06] <roc> It may be over-generous to assume that existing APIs have been fully explored
  114. # [04:07] <roc> we seem to frequently get feature requests where that is not the case
  115. # [04:08] <TabAtkins> I know that in my chatting with the dude, he explicitly talks about why subsetting is unsatisfactory.
  116. # [04:08] <roc> What is it?
  117. # [04:09] <roc> anyway, the point stands: if you have a proposal, you can figure out what group(s) it should go to, but if you only have a problem statement, it's unclear
  118. # [04:09] <TabAtkins> Because you have to subset separately for every page if you want maximum efficiency, and monitor page changes so you know if you need to rengerate yoru subsets.
  119. # [04:09] <roc> that's not what I'm saying
  120. # [04:09] <TabAtkins> I have a problem statement.
  121. # [04:09] <roc> because what I said was totally unclear
  122. # [04:09] <TabAtkins> Heh.
  123. # [04:10] <roc> How about this: split your font into a number of different fonts, each covering some range of Unicode characters
  124. # [04:10] <roc> then apply all those fonts to the page with CSS 'unicode-range'
  125. # [04:10] <roc> A browser implementation should automatically load the subset-font(s) that are needed
  126. # [04:11] <TabAtkins> Interesting. Didn't realize we should do that.
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  128. # [04:11] <roc> even if an implementation currently doesn't, it could
  129. # [04:12] <roc> I can believe that approach doesn't work well; maybe there is no adequate choice for the granularity of the subset fonts
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  131. # [04:12] <roc> but I hope it's been tried
  132. # [04:12] <TabAtkins> I don't know if it has.
  133. # [04:12] <TabAtkins> Bringing it up now.
  134. # [04:13] <TabAtkins> (In email, so asynchronous.)
  135. # [04:13] <TabAtkins> In unrelated news, roc, I had a question for you about http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/07/svg_paint_serve.html
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  137. # [04:13] <TabAtkins> I don't understand the distinction you're drawing between the coordinate spaces there.
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  140. # [04:15] <roc> if that doesn't work well, an alternative to consider would be to see if it's possible to lay out OpenType fonts cleverly and use byte-range requests to load desired subsets; again, no new API would be needed
  141. # [04:16] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's something we wanted to broach somewhere.
  142. # [04:17] <roc> possibly you don't have to broach it anywhere
  143. # [04:17] <TabAtkins> Broach = raise in hearing of someone who knows what they're doing, so we know if it's possible.
  144. # [04:17] <roc> just start loading the font file, once you have sufficient headers, spin up a parallel load with byte-range requests for the data you want to get quicker
  145. # [04:19] <roc> TabAtkins: I think those coordinate spaces are effectively the same; I just defined them differently because they get used differently in SVG
  146. # [04:20] <roc> for example, if your element is 20px wide, then with userSpaceOnUse a width value of "1" is 1px, but with objectBoundingBox a width value of "1" would be 20px
  147. # [04:21] <TabAtkins> Hmm.
  148. # [04:21] <TabAtkins> Does that latter one actually do something useful?
  149. # [04:22] <roc> that is how objectBoundingBox coordinates work in SVG
  150. # [04:23] <roc> 0,0 is the top-left of the "object bounding box", 1,1 is the bottom right
  151. # [04:23] <TabAtkins> Oh, ok. I don't ever use that coordinate space, obviously.
  152. # [04:23] <roc> it's quite stupid, but that's how it works
  153. # [04:24] <TabAtkins> I was wanting to specify this behavior in Image Values, and I was scratching my head at it at first.
  154. # [04:25] <TabAtkins> Your definition of userSpaceOnUse is actually very useful for the eventual unification of <image> and paint servers that I'd like to do.
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  165. # [05:05] <Hixie> TabAtkins: for the font thing, roc's suggestion is probably the best place to start, but if you need something with even fewer RTTs, then you could define your own units for a range request that was basically the same syntax as the css unicode-range
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  167. # [05:06] <Hixie> TabAtkins: roc's suggestions, i should say
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  185. # [06:27] <roc> nessy: I wasn't trying to make people with PhDs feel ashamed, far from it. But you don't write ", PhD" after your name, and people who do are usually putting on some intimidation, that's all
  186. # [06:28] <nessy> roc: I have no problem with that :-)
  187. # [06:28] <nessy> I probably just got half of a conversation last night
  188. # [06:29] <nessy> but I do get the feeling very often - not from you specifically, but more generally - that a PhD amongst engineers is being looked down on as a waste of time and lost time to do something more productive
  189. # [06:29] <nessy> and sometimes it's true, too :-)
  190. # [06:30] <nessy> but it's also life experience and it takes hard work to actually finish a thesis
  191. # [06:30] <nessy> anyway .. onto more productive things :-)
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  201. # [07:00] <LoneStar99> is the right place to ask about html5 canvas?
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  205. # [07:08] <hober> LoneStar99: sure
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  259. # [09:39] * Dashiva wonders what's going on with RDFa light inside members-only land
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  266. # [10:07] <jgraham> Dashiva: I think the fact that it is going on in Members-only land should tell you all you need to know
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  268. # [10:08] <jgraham> Apparently the concept of irony has been lost on these people
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  279. # [10:56] <zcorpan> what's teh security problem with converting broken utf-8 to u+fffd in websockets?
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  288. # [11:32] <zcorpan> foolip: <http://www.w3.org/mid/E1QWcRS-0002EY-8u@jessica.w3.org>
  289. # [11:34] <foolip> zcorpan, what do you think about that?
  290. # [11:35] <foolip> HTMLTimeElement also has some extra IDL properties, are those not good for anything?
  291. # [11:35] <zcorpan> dunno
  292. # [11:35] <foolip> having an element for this purpose seems a bit odd though
  293. # [11:35] <zcorpan> yeah should be a global attribute
  294. # [11:36] <foolip> RDFa's content="" or a new itemvalue="" seems more reasonable
  295. # [11:36] <zcorpan> and no reason to drop <time> imo
  296. # [11:36] <foolip> in which case <time> can be left alone
  297. # [11:36] <foolip> right
  298. # [11:36] <foolip> although I think <time> is actually fairly useless
  299. # [11:36] <foolip> since it forbids marking up many kinds of times
  300. # [11:37] <foolip> not sure when it's better than just <span>, actually...
  301. # [11:37] <foolip> Looks like I don't have a strong opinion either way :)
  302. # [11:38] <zcorpan> will you comment on the bug anyway?
  303. # [11:39] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  304. # [11:40] <foolip> OK
  305. # [11:42] <jgraham> ooh more longdesc drama
  306. # [11:42] * jgraham gets popcorn
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  311. # [11:52] <matjas> hmm, can anyone respond to http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=841#c1?
  312. # [11:53] <matjas> i thought i got it the other day but now i’m confused again
  313. # [11:56] <zcorpan> replied
  314. # [11:57] <matjas> thanks, zcorpan
  315. # [11:58] <matjas> zcorpan: so is my bug title incorrect?
  316. # [11:58] <zcorpan> i'm sure hsivonen understands what it means
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  318. # [11:59] <matjas> I want to understand too :)
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  320. # [11:59] <matjas> is `href=foo?bar=1&baz=42` allowed or not?
  321. # [11:59] <zcorpan> it is allowed, and it does not contain any ambiguous ampersands
  322. # [12:00] <zcorpan> read the definition of ambiguous ampersand carefully
  323. # [12:00] <matjas> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/syntax.html#syntax-ambiguous-ampersand
  324. # [12:00] <matjas> oh because it’s not followed by `;`
  325. # [12:01] <zcorpan> yes
  326. # [12:02] <matjas> so where in the spec does it say the unencoded & there is allowed?
  327. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> It doesn't need to, does it?
  328. # [12:02] <zcorpan> "Attribute values are a mixture of text and character references, except with the additional restriction that the text cannot contain an ambiguous ampersand."
  329. # [12:03] <zcorpan> "text" does not ban &
  330. # [12:03] <zcorpan> (but bans U+0000 for instance)
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  332. # [12:04] <matjas> but <p>foo&bar</p> isn’t allowed
  333. # [12:04] <matjas> even though “Text is allowed inside elements, attribute values, and comments.”
  334. # [12:05] <zcorpan> that's allowed afaict
  335. # [12:05] * zcorpan reads the parser section to see if it matches the author section
  336. # [12:05] <matjas> not according to validator.nu — is that a separate issue then?
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  338. # [12:07] <zcorpan> parser section matches
  339. # [12:08] <zcorpan> it's the same issue
  340. # [12:08] <matjas> okay, so the problem is that the definition of ambiguous ampersand changed
  341. # [12:08] <zcorpan> yes
  342. # [12:09] <zcorpan> and the parser changed what is a parse error to match
  343. # [12:09] <matjas> before the change previously stuff like href="foo&bar" had an ambiguous ampersand?
  344. # [12:09] <matjas> or what
  345. # [12:09] <zcorpan> yes
  346. # [12:09] <matjas> ok
  347. # [12:09] <matjas> so the ; requirement is new
  348. # [12:09] <matjas> i think i finally get it
  349. # [12:09] <zcorpan> :)
  350. # [12:09] <matjas> thanks for your patience, zcorpan
  351. # [12:11] <zcorpan> the parser also changed behavior for &copy= which v.nu also doesn't seem to have implemented
  352. # [12:11] <zcorpan> (in attributes)
  353. # [12:11] <matjas> what about it?
  354. # [12:12] <matjas> `href=&copy=` shouldn’t be allowed, right?
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  357. # [12:16] <matjas> are all ambiguous ampersands invalid?
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  360. # [12:21] <zcorpan> they are invalid but &copy= is parsed differently in attribute value and text content
  361. # [12:21] <zcorpan> but it seems that was actually implemented, i didn't test properly
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  371. # [12:35] <Workshiva> Looking at setting selection and whether it triggers focus
  372. # [12:36] <Workshiva> From what I see html5 doesn't specify a focus event being fired for select() nor for setSelectionRange. However, the MDC docs specify that select() also fires focus.
  373. # [12:36] <Workshiva> And it seems Chrome fires a focus event for both of them.
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  379. # [12:45] <Ms2ger> File a bug, Hixie will figure it out by Christmas
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  381. # [12:46] <Workshiva> I'm looking for someone to say they've already looked into that and tell me what the resolution is going to be ;)
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  386. # [12:56] * jgraham just got a YSOD is spotify
  387. # [12:56] <jgraham> *in
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  403. # [14:02] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: the default style for <a>, <ins> and <del> interact badly with blocks as well
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  416. # [14:23] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Requesting codepoints from a font is tricky because of glyph substitutions (ligatures etc) - you can't treat each codepoint individually when deciding what bytes to download, you have to know the entire set to determine which glyphs might get used
  417. # [14:24] <Philip`> (and you can't do it by downloading the whole GSUB table and letting the client figure out the glyphs to request instead of codepoints, because that table might be hundreds of KB and would defeat the point of subsetting)
  418. # [14:26] <Philip`> Also I believe you need to dynamically compute a new GSUB table for the subset (to avoid downloading the entire thing), you can't just use a range of its original bytes
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  420. # [14:28] <Philip`> (The old WEFT tool didn't recompute GSUB, it just deleted some glyph data, which is much easier but results in much larger font files)
  421. # [14:28] <boblet> Philip`: isn’t Typekit linking to several partial @font-face files as a form of obfuscation or something?
  422. # [14:29] <Philip`> boblet: Don't know, but maybe
  423. # [14:29] <erlehmann> boblet, show it.
  424. # [14:29] <boblet> I thought I read something about that when it was released. No personal knowledge
  425. # [14:29] <Philip`> It's quite possible they don't care about things like ligatures or languages that rely heavily on substitutions
  426. # [14:32] <boblet> as for TabAtkins’ usecase, it would be rad to download a basic set then request other glyphs as needed for East Asian typography
  427. # [14:32] <Philip`> http://help.typekit.com/customer/portal/articles/8071-support-for-different-languages-on-typekit suggests the only languages they support are Latin alphabet ones
  428. # [14:32] <boblet> Services like Typekit could create a CMS plugin that checks for all used characters across a site then make a site-specific subset, updating when content changes. But once the site gets large this isn’t so useful (except when kanji is involved)
  429. # [14:33] <boblet> Philip`: they have at least two (freebie) Japanese fonts
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  431. # [14:34] <boblet> “We split requested fonts into multiple files and recombine them using the CSS font stack” http://blog.typekit.com/2009/07/21/serving-and-protecting-fonts-on-the-web/
  432. # [14:34] <boblet> erlehmann: ^ ;)
  433. # [14:35] <Philip`> I think Japanese is easy too - things like Arabic and Devanagari etc are hard since they rely on complex shaping
  434. # [14:35] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, isn't fontkits way the easiest?
  435. # [14:36] <jgraham> Isn't japanese even easier since it doesn't have ligatures at all? Does it even have combining characters?
  436. # [14:36] <boblet> Philip`: true. was thinking more of the initial filesize of Japanese fonts. The M+ fonts are like 350KB per weight
  437. # [14:36] <boblet> jgraham: no combining characters, but 8,000+ glyphs
  438. # [14:38] <jgraham> Oh look I am wrong http://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-ligatures-in-CJK
  439. # [14:41] <boblet> jgraham: pretty sure those are individual glyphs not ligatures. as in キ and ロ and ㌔ are three separate code points (rather than ㌔ being made from resized/repositioned キロ)
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  441. # [14:42] <boblet> the Mac Japanese Input Menu flags ㌔ as “Contains JIS X0213 unique characters”
  442. # [14:44] <boblet> If you wanted to enter ㌔ you’d have to manually select it — it wouldn’t be automatically replaced as with a western ligature
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  499. # [17:23] <Ms2ger> What's up with http://dev.w3.org/html5/2dcontext/ being out of date?
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  515. # [17:32] <David_Bradbury> Ms2ger: Maybe there haven't been any changes proposed, though updating the date to reflect that might be nice.
  516. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> There have been
  517. # [17:33] <David_Bradbury> Hmm... Then I'd poke Hixie ^
  518. # [17:34] <Philip`> Maybe any new commits would overwrite the application of issue 131's resolution, and cause unhappiness
  519. # [17:34] <Philip`> (http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/2dcontext/Overview.html)
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  521. # [17:35] <David_Bradbury> So, when are we going to start seeing the new 4D Cavnas Context gaining support? :p
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  606. # [20:07] <volkmar> AryehGregor: ping
  607. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> volkmar, pong.
  608. # [20:07] <volkmar> AryehGregor: i saw you were involved in a discussion about input in DOM 3 Events... do you know, by any chance why textinput is specidified and not input?
  609. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> volkmar, was I? I don't know anything about events, sorry.
  610. # [20:08] <volkmar> AryehGregor: i were :)
  611. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> Never read any specs for them or anything.
  612. # [20:08] <volkmar> oups, you were
  613. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> You were what?
  614. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  615. # [20:08] * volkmar is tired
  616. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> Was that the one where I said something then immediately realized I misunderstood and retracted what I said?
  617. # [20:09] <volkmar> AryehGregor: it was a thread with someone asking for onvaluechanged
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  619. # [20:10] * AryehGregor doesn't remember
  620. # [20:10] <volkmar> anyway, i will read more of the search results... the reason might pop out
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  623. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> shepazutoo, ^
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  625. # [20:15] <volkmar> ok, i filed a bug and I will see...
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  627. # [20:15] * volkmar wonders why 'change' i
  628. # [20:15] <volkmar> isn't specced too
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  659. # [21:14] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  660. # [21:16] <zewt> smaug____: pong
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  662. # [21:28] <smaug____> zewt: you said something about default handling not being part of dispatchEvent
  663. # [21:28] <smaug____> just FYI, it is in all the browsers
  664. # [21:29] <smaug____> zewt: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12949#c5
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  666. # [21:30] <smaug____> it is the specs which don't match reality
  667. # [21:30] <smaug____> well, DOM 3 Events nor Web DOM Core don't need to specify default handling
  668. # [21:32] <zewt> dom 3 events says that default handlers don't happen for untrusted events, and that includes all events dispatched with dispatchEvent (except for i think one exception, which I'm having trouble recalling)
  669. # [21:32] * bentruyman is now known as bentruyman[afk]
  670. # [21:32] <smaug____> that is a different
  671. # [21:32] <zewt> it's not; it means that dispatchEvent will never (modulo whatever that exception was) cause default handling to occur
  672. # [21:32] <smaug____> it could be a bug that default handlers fire when untrusted event is dispatched
  673. # [21:33] <smaug____> but it does not mean that default handling is not part of event dispatch
  674. # [21:33] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@64.134.186.190)
  675. # [21:34] <zewt> but it's not part of event dispatch :)
  676. # [21:34] <zewt> it may be implemented that way by browsers, but as that has no (that I'm aware of) visible side-effects it's not really relevant
  677. # [21:34] <smaug____> But yes, DOM 3 Events is probably too strict
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  679. # [21:35] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  680. # [21:35] <zewt> the event model is if(dispatchEvent(e)) doDefaultBehavior(), not dispatchEvent(e, doDefaultBehavior)--the default behavior is logically part of whoever's calling for a dispatch, not internal to dispatch itself
  681. # [21:37] <smaug____> in practice the event model pre-handle-event, dispatch the event to DOM, post-handle-event
  682. # [21:37] <smaug____> event model is...
  683. # [21:38] <zewt> that's internal implementation details--can you explain what effect that has on the specced behavior?
  684. # [21:38] <zewt> in other words, what's the difference
  685. # [21:38] <smaug____> See the example http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12949#c5
  686. # [21:39] <smaug____> dispatching event does do the default handling
  687. # [21:40] <zewt> yeah i think that's the odd exception, which should be treated as such--it should certainly be specced, but only to define the exception, not to change the event model to suit it
  688. # [21:41] <smaug____> but that is how browsers work
  689. # [21:41] <smaug____> the default handling is part of event dispatch
  690. # [21:41] <zewt> that just doesn't matter, it's the visible behavior that matters
  691. # [21:41] <smaug____> what we should define is that in which cases default handling can be triggered using untrusted events
  692. # [21:42] <zewt> and onclick is just a weird legacy exception
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  694. # [21:43] <smaug____> It would be just easier to define the reality
  695. # [21:43] <smaug____> that default handling is part of event dispatch, and in x, y, and z cases untrusted events can trigger default handling
  696. # [21:43] <zewt> the reality is that default handling is not part of event dispatch, from the perspective of visible behavior
  697. # [21:43] <smaug____> that is not trie
  698. # [21:43] <smaug____> true
  699. # [21:44] <zewt> yes it is
  700. # [21:44] <smaug____> my example is an example where it is not
  701. # [21:44] <zewt> like i said (two or three times :) that's the odd exception, behavior that doesn't match how the event model works for everything else
  702. # [21:45] <smaug____> what "for everything else"
  703. # [21:45] <smaug____> where does the event model work differently
  704. # [21:45] <smaug____> I'd like to see an example
  705. # [21:46] <zewt> huh? you've given the *only* case I'm aware of where default behavior ends up being part of dispatch
  706. # [21:47] * bentruyman[afk] is now known as bentruyman
  707. # [21:47] <zewt> and I'm certainly not arguing against speccing that behavior, but it should be treated as exceptional compatibility behavior, not as an argument that the entire event model should be based on that
  708. # [21:47] <smaug____> I'd like to see an example where the default handling is not part of the event dispatch. (it is possible that untrusted events don't trigger default handling)
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  710. # [21:49] <zewt> every dispatchEvent() call in javascript; the default behavior is whatever you do if it returns true
  711. # [21:49] <smaug____> I'm not talking about script libraries
  712. # [21:49] <smaug____> but browser implementations
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  715. # [21:49] <zewt> scripts are intrinsic to the event model.
  716. # [21:50] <smaug____> link handling works the same way as changing checked state. you dispatch event and the default handling for <a> triggers the navigation
  717. # [21:50] <smaug____> etc
  718. # [21:51] <mpilgrim> there's really no compilation shortcuts after you've changed 500 IDL files
  719. # [21:52] <smaug____> form submission has the default handling during event dispatch
  720. # [21:52] <zewt> not in my experience
  721. # [21:52] <zewt> var e = document.createEvent("HTMLEvents"); e.initEvent("submit", true, true); form.dispatchEvent(e);
  722. # [21:52] <zewt> if(!e.stopped) form.submit();
  723. # [21:53] <zewt> ^ i've had to write code like that because it's not
  724. # [21:54] <smaug____> what is e.stopped?
  725. # [21:54] <zewt> (pardoning the ugly prototype.js-ism)
  726. # [21:54] <zewt> if(form.dispatchEvent(e)) form.submit();
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  728. # [22:00] <smaug____> dispatching submit event submits the form at least in Fx and Opera
  729. # [22:00] <smaug____> again, the difference in default handling can be that some browsers don't allow untrusted events to dispatch the event
  730. # [22:00] <smaug____> er
  731. # [22:01] <smaug____> again, the difference in default handling can be that some browsers don't allow untrusted events to do the default handling
  732. # [22:01] <zewt> it's the same thing (as far as visible behavior is concerned)
  733. # [22:02] <zewt> when it's a browser-dispatched event there's no difference whether default behavior is implemented inside dispatchEvent or not
  734. # [22:02] <smaug____> yeah
  735. # [22:02] <smaug____> it is the default handling of untrusted events
  736. # [22:02] <smaug____> which needs to be defined
  737. # [22:03] <smaug____> so click() can just dispatch click event and we need to define in which case untrusted events can trigger d.efault handling
  738. # [22:03] <smaug____> and the problem is solved :)
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  740. # [22:04] <zewt> rather, these exceptional behaviors should be called something else, and defined as the rare exceptions they are
  741. # [22:05] <zewt> not by changing the whole event model to revolve around the one (maybe two) exceptions
  742. # [22:05] <smaug____> huh. I don't understand why we couldn't define the reality.
  743. # [22:05] <smaug____> that way click() would have strange special powers
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  745. # [22:06] <zewt> huh? you can submit a click event with dispatchEvent
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  747. # [22:06] <smaug____> per spec click() does more than just dispatch click event
  748. # [22:07] <smaug____> but that is not the reality
  749. # [22:07] <zewt> i think it's perfectly fine for click() to be able to do something you can't do otherwise (that's what DOM APIs do), but I don't think that matters here
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  752. # [22:07] <smaug____> hmm, sounds like this discussion is not leading to anywhere :)
  753. # [22:07] <zewt> anyway, we're going in circles, and I'm not the one you need to convince anyway :)
  754. # [22:08] <smaug____> I will just reject all the insane changes to event handling in an implementation :)
  755. # [22:08] <zewt> i don't think it changes implementation behavior--so long as the weird exceptions are specced, which again (at least in DOM Core) they aren't yet
  756. # [22:09] <zewt> happen to know when Anne's due back?
  757. # [22:09] <smaug____> don't remember
  758. # [22:10] <Ms2ger> Today
  759. # [22:11] <zewt> i don't envy him his backlog, heh
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  764. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> Can someone with an MDN wiki account change the spec reference here to point to CSSOM View instead of an outdated HTML5 link? https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element.scrollIntoView http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-element-scrollintoview
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  770. # [22:51] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  772. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> Wow, manual tests are staggeringly boring.
  773. # [22:57] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@64.134.71.88) (Quit: miketaylr)
  774. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> Even if you can run a couple a second by just repeatedly hitting the same key, and cache the results.
  775. # [22:58] <smaug____> AryehGregor: just a second, I'll change or ask someone to change
  776. # [22:58] <smaug____> the link
  777. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> I need a small mechanical device that will press a key repeatedly for me so I can do something else in the meantime.
  778. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> smaug____, thanks.
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  781. # [23:07] <smaug____> AryehGregor: updated
  782. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> smaug____, thanks.
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  801. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> It's annoying when I get close to the end of a day and have finished all the major work I have and don't want to start on a new thing because I wouldn't make any progress before I stopped for the day.
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  811. # Session Close: Thu Jun 16 00:00:00 2011

The end :)