/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-20 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 20 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  4. # [00:11] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@198.134.89.94)
  5. # [00:18] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  6. # [00:20] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Client Quit)
  7. # [00:25] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  8. # [00:26] <clair> If anyone's interested I've put some code examples on the wiki for the dialog proposal, I'll add in some more once I figure out how they work
  9. # [00:28] * Quits: David_Bradbury (~chatzilla@75-147-178-254-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
  10. # [00:29] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@198.134.89.94) (Remote host closed the connection)
  11. # [00:39] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-8-33.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  12. # [00:39] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  13. # [00:41] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: annevk)
  14. # [00:44] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  15. # [00:47] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  16. # [00:56] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  17. # [00:56] * Joins: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  18. # [00:57] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  19. # [01:02] * Quits: dglazkov|away (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-ygzjpiufucqgnind) (Quit: dglazkov|away)
  20. # [01:04] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-8.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  21. # [01:22] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-8.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  22. # [01:29] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  23. # [01:34] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-8.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  24. # [01:35] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@adsl-76-228-82-246.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
  25. # [01:36] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  26. # [01:36] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  27. # [01:36] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  28. # [01:37] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
  29. # [01:38] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  30. # [01:39] * Quits: stefan-_ (~music@hiwi0.wi2.uni-trier.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  31. # [01:40] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@78.146.21.169) (Quit: Leaving)
  32. # [01:40] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-8.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  33. # [01:41] * Quits: Morphous_ (jan@f049067113.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  34. # [01:57] * Joins: Morphous_ (jan@g228225091.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  35. # [02:03] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  36. # [02:12] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-16f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  37. # [02:17] <llrcombs> Can't anyone just tell me "sounds good, we might add it" or "that's a crappy idea, and here's why"?
  38. # [02:17] <llrcombs> Idea: Methods in <track> to programatically add/remove/edit cues
  39. # [02:18] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure most people here aren't following the <track> stuff.
  40. # [02:18] <AryehGregor> Thus the lackluster response.
  41. # [02:18] <llrcombs> is there another chan I should ask in?
  42. # [02:22] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@57.72.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  43. # [02:22] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  44. # [02:23] * Quits: pdr2 (~pdr2@nat/google/x-bfkkkglmieqbljrr) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  45. # [02:25] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.64) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  46. # [02:30] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  47. # [02:32] <zewt> post on the list
  48. # [02:33] <llrcombs> how about the forums?
  49. # [02:33] <zewt> what forums? heh
  50. # [02:34] <llrcombs> the whatwg forums
  51. # [02:34] <llrcombs> forums.whatwg.org
  52. # [02:35] <zewt> don't know about those, development doesn't happen on forums
  53. # [02:35] <llrcombs> http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/viewforum.php?f=3
  54. # [02:35] <zewt> don't know what that even exists, stick to the list
  55. # [02:36] <llrcombs> link?
  56. # [02:36] <llrcombs> (I like forums D:)
  57. # [02:36] <zewt> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=whatwg+mailing+list
  58. # [02:37] <llrcombs> yay encrypted google
  59. # [02:37] <llrcombs> yeah, that was probably a stupid question
  60. # [02:40] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  61. # [02:41] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  62. # [02:42] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  63. # [02:54] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  64. # [02:55] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  65. # [02:56] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.64)
  66. # [02:58] * Quits: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  67. # [02:58] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  68. # [03:05] * Quits: clair (~clair@host86-163-151-50.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: clair)
  69. # [03:06] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@adsl-75-37-26-125.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  70. # [03:11] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-5ed9e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  71. # [03:13] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  72. # [03:20] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.93.245)
  73. # [03:21] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  74. # [03:22] * Quits: bga_|away (~bga@ppp78-37-253-71.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  75. # [03:22] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@adsl-75-37-26-125.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
  76. # [03:25] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  77. # [03:26] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.64) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  78. # [03:31] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.64)
  79. # [04:01] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  80. # [04:07] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au) (Quit: ben_h)
  81. # [04:07] * Quits: The_8472 (~stardive@azureus/The8472) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  82. # [04:12] * Joins: The_8472 (~stardive@azureus/The8472)
  83. # [04:15] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-qxvnlyhvrlmrbneb) (Remote host closed the connection)
  84. # [04:15] * Joins: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-jmztmogcjadmoiif)
  85. # [04:18] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Remote host closed the connection)
  86. # [04:20] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  87. # [04:29] * Joins: miketayl_r (~miketaylr@24.42.93.245)
  88. # [04:30] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.93.245) (Disconnected by services)
  89. # [04:30] * miketayl_r is now known as miketaylr
  90. # [04:31] * Parts: toyoshim (~toyoshim@yuri.twintail.org)
  91. # [04:38] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:baac:6fff:fe99:adfb)
  92. # [04:47] * Joins: ben_h (~ben@128.250.195.138)
  93. # [04:58] * Joins: _jgr (~jgr@CPE-60-231-55-57.lns3.cha.bigpond.net.au)
  94. # [05:03] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: Snuggling with the puppies)
  95. # [05:06] * Joins: nonge__ (~nonge@p5082A08A.dip.t-dialin.net)
  96. # [05:08] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@p5082B270.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  97. # [05:12] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~mikesmith@EM111-188-100-52.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  98. # [05:13] * Joins: MikeSmith__ (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-100-52.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  99. # [05:16] * Quits: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM1-112-4-111.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  100. # [05:16] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  101. # [05:20] * Quits: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM111-188-100-52.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Disconnected by services)
  102. # [05:20] * MikeSmith__ is now known as MikeSmith
  103. # [05:23] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Core Breach)
  104. # [05:38] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
  105. # [05:43] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  106. # [05:48] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@2406:a000:f0ff:fffe::3461)
  107. # [05:52] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  108. # [05:56] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  109. # [05:56] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  110. # [05:59] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.93.245) (Quit: miketaylr)
  111. # [05:59] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@2406:a000:f0ff:fffe::3461) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  112. # [06:03] * Joins: estellevw__ (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  113. # [06:05] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  114. # [06:05] * estellevw__ is now known as estellevw
  115. # [06:08] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@2406:a000:f0ff:fffe::3461)
  116. # [06:08] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@2406:a000:f0ff:fffe::3461) (Remote host closed the connection)
  117. # [06:08] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@2406:a000:f0ff:fffe::3461)
  118. # [06:11] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  119. # [06:28] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.43.138)
  120. # [06:29] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  121. # [06:34] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.43.138) (Remote host closed the connection)
  122. # [06:38] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-254f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  123. # [06:46] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.20.90) (Quit: [ UPP ] > all)
  124. # [06:54] * Quits: _jgr (~jgr@CPE-60-231-55-57.lns3.cha.bigpond.net.au) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  125. # [07:15] * Joins: rwaldron (~Rick@75-150-66-249-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  126. # [07:18] * Quits: humph (~dave@cdot.senecac.on.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
  127. # [07:19] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.64) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  128. # [07:35] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  129. # [07:35] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-049fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  130. # [07:37] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  131. # [07:38] * Quits: drewcode (~chatzilla@24-107-73-144.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
  132. # [07:38] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  133. # [07:43] * Joins: Ankheg (~Ankheg@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru)
  134. # [07:45] <zcorpan> input from webkit people on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12798 would be nice
  135. # [07:45] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Remote host closed the connection)
  136. # [07:48] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  137. # [08:03] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193)
  138. # [08:07] * Joins: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  139. # [08:08] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  140. # [08:08] <heycam> zcorpan, I agree, thanks for ccing abarth
  141. # [08:09] <heycam> (although I'm loathe to reopen without some concrete data)
  142. # [08:09] * heycam heads home
  143. # [08:09] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  144. # [08:10] * Joins: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  145. # [08:16] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  146. # [08:33] * Quits: Thezilch (fuz007@cpe-76-167-225-217.socal.res.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  147. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> Ben Meyer is stopping work on Arora - http://groups.google.com/group/arora-dev/browse_thread/thread/c3c318b78a655039
  148. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> I guess it was inevitable
  149. # [08:47] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  150. # [08:50] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  151. # [08:53] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  152. # [09:04] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is George Staikos still at Torch/RIM? is he prohibited from doing Qt stuff as well?
  153. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: not sure if George is at RIM or not
  154. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> but yeah it would really suck if he weren't allowed to work on Qt stuff
  155. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: looking through http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebKit/qt it seems like it's been a long time since he committed any changes himself against the sources for the Qt port of WebKit
  156. # [09:13] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-254f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  157. # [09:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  158. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> so hsivonen , about the input-type error message thing, when you mentioned punching holes in some abstractions, did you mean in the validator.nu branch of jing?
  159. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> because as far as what's currently available to the message-emitter code, that would seem like the only place to do it
  160. # [09:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I haven't looked at the code, but AFAICT, there are two options: 1) Making Jing expose the attributes in the exception and 2) Making the message emitter register a SAX ContentHandler that gets served earlier than Jing so that the message emitter knows which SAX event Jing is about to get
  161. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> ah
  162. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> OK
  163. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> I see
  164. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> I reckon registering a new content handler might be easier than making the changes to Jing
  165. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> maybe not technically easier
  166. # [09:20] <hsivonen> I'd expect it to be the better route
  167. # [09:20] <hsivonen> especially if we try to pursue merging with Jing trunk some day
  168. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> right
  169. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> it seems like James would rather not see further changes going into the validator.nu branch that he doesn't want in the trunk
  170. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> and getting his review time & attention is also not very easy
  171. # [09:22] <hsivonen> hmm. http://help.yandex.ru/webmaster/?id=995300#995356 doesn't look like a great "spec" for yandex-verification
  172. # [09:23] <hsivonen> since the page doesn't even mention what the meta keyword is
  173. # [09:23] * Joins: woef (~woef@79.232-136-217.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be)
  174. # [09:26] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  175. # [09:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: any advice about yandex-verification?
  176. # [09:27] <othermaciej> George Staikos is at RIM, yes
  177. # [09:27] <othermaciej> I think their port might be based on Qt, but I am not sure
  178. # [09:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems totally silly to fail yandex-verification for failing the requirements, but not failing it would set an awful precedent
  179. # [09:28] * Joins: LBP (~Miranda@pD9EB1822.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  180. # [09:29] <hsivonen> fwiw, the English version of the doc at http://help.yandex.com/webmaster/?id=1115204 doesn't mention the actual meta keyword, either
  181. # [09:30] * Quits: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: simplicity-)
  182. # [09:32] * Joins: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  183. # [09:33] * Quits: moo-_- (~quassel@herd37.twinapex.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  184. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> so I did some hacking on the bugzilla mail code to try to get notifications in which the record of changes is easier to read than the default bugzilla ascii-table thing
  185. # [09:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh well, I moved the entry to the list of keywords that don't meet the requirements, since, objectively, it doesn't :-(
  186. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> result so far is here:
  187. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> https://raw.github.com/gist/1035260/5ba6711823a527ba670ad06f1289599426cba6c4/gistfile1.txt
  188. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> opinions on that would be welcome
  189. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> and/or suggestions for further tweaks
  190. # [09:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: WFM
  191. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> ok
  192. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> unfortunately the bugzilla template mechanism doesn't provide any way to adjust the formatting of that part of the notifications
  193. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> the ascii-table part
  194. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> so changing it requires hacking the system BugMail.pm file
  195. # [09:36] * Joins: moo-_- (~quassel@herd37.twinapex.fi)
  196. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> which means if we deploy this for the W3C bugzilla, I will need to the W3C systems team to agree to it
  197. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> so I hope I can do that
  198. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> but I really think this should be changed in bugzilla upstream
  199. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> that ascii-table stuff only displays well in fixed-width font anyway
  200. # [09:38] <zewt> heh
  201. # [09:38] <zewt> mails formatted as if everyone reads mail in a terminal in 2011 is sort of uhh
  202. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> and I reckon a quite large number or users these days are reading those messages in a client that displays them using a proportional font
  203. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> e.g., Gmail or Mail.app or Outlook or whatever
  204. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> zewt: well, I guess a lot of bugzilla users still do read mail in clients with fixed-width fonts
  205. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> at least I do still
  206. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> most of the time
  207. # [09:41] * MikeSmith wonders if there's a way to have gmail use a fixed-width font
  208. # [09:41] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  209. # [09:42] * Joins: _jgr (~jgr@CPE-60-231-55-57.lns3.cha.bigpond.net.au)
  210. # [09:43] * MikeSmith checks and sees it seems not (other than changing browser settings)
  211. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> seems that iPad mail client doesn't provide any way to change the font-family either
  212. # [09:44] <hsivonen> yay IETF. the about: URL scheme has existed since early Netscape and now we get feedback that the W3C shouldn't use it while the IETF ponders it
  213. # [09:44] <zcorpan> about:ietf
  214. # [09:45] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  215. # [09:47] <zewt> MikeSmith: you can send an HTML version set to a fixed-width font, but ... please don't, heh
  216. # [09:47] <zewt> the only legitimate case I've seen for changing fonts in mail so far is when pasting code into a mail; setting fixed-width is sort of useful then
  217. # [09:48] * Joins: msucan (~robod@109.96.217.163)
  218. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> about:clue
  219. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> zewt: I think fixed-width font for e-mail is pretty much better for readability regardless
  220. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> I don't know of many use cases for really needing typography fineries in e-mail
  221. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> e-mail messages are word-processing docs
  222. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> or web pages
  223. # [09:51] <zewt> fixed-width is pretty bad for readability in general, but of course that's the reader's choice, not the sender's :)
  224. # [09:55] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@128.250.195.138) (Quit: ben_h)
  225. # [09:55] <asmodai> Mmm
  226. # [09:56] <asmodai> hsivonen: I wonder why the firefox 5 installer doesn't invoke UAC to allow me to install
  227. # [09:56] <zewt> heh
  228. # [09:56] <asmodai> Trying to install it complains about not having rights to write to the destination directory. Have to right click and run as administrator
  229. # [09:56] <zewt> clicking chrome install links in firefox and having it go "done!" is pretty much "uhhh, what?"
  230. # [09:56] <asmodai> zewt: heh
  231. # [09:57] <hsivonen> zewt: do you mean after installing some other app from Google that installs an NPAPI plug-in into Firefox without asking?
  232. # [09:57] <zewt> i have no idea what it was, actually
  233. # [09:57] <hsivonen> asmodai: I have no idea. I know very little about Windows
  234. # [09:58] <zewt> maybe it was the "upgrade chrome to testing" or whatever
  235. # [09:58] <asmodai> hsivonen: Just curious, since previous versions requested those permissions.
  236. # [09:58] <hsivonen> zewt: AFAICT, Opera is the only major competing browser vendor that doesn't try to inject code into Firefox under any circumstances
  237. # [09:59] <hsivonen> kudos to Opera
  238. # [09:59] <zewt> Google Update 1.3.21.57
  239. # [09:59] <zewt> yeah google installed some plugin into firefox without permission
  240. # [10:00] * Joins: tbassetto (~tbassetto@anj75-2-88-162-180-30.fbx.proxad.net)
  241. # [10:02] <hsivonen> Firefox really needs to start prompting the user with something like "Hey, $VENDOR added some code into Firefox without asking you. [Cool, Let's Run More Code] [[Not Cool, Reject the Code]]"
  242. # [10:03] <zewt> also google needs to stop installing things without permission because that's not "okay"
  243. # [10:05] <hsivonen> as I understand it, the stuff Google installs is less of a problem than stuff antivirus packages or Skype install
  244. # [10:05] <zewt> heh i use a skype from like 2008 because anything newer is unusable
  245. # [10:07] <zewt> surprised it even works
  246. # [10:07] <othermaciej> which browser vendors inject code into Firefox and how?
  247. # [10:07] <zewt> chrome appears to install a plugin into firefox
  248. # [10:08] <othermaciej> does the way they do it obtain meaningful user consent?
  249. # [10:08] <zewt> none that I can recall giving
  250. # [10:08] <othermaciej> if it wasn't a Google product that would probably be considered malware
  251. # [10:08] <zewt> i consider it malware anyway :)
  252. # [10:09] <zewt> malware I'm marginally less worried about exploding my system, but nonetheless
  253. # [10:09] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Google installs the above-mentioned Google Update plug-in when you install Chrome. Apple installs the QuickTime Plug-in if you install a fully-functional version of Safari (QuickTime is required for fully-functional Safari), if you install something that requires Microsoft Genuine Advantage Validation, you end up with a Microsoft plug-in in Firefox while doing something that isn't obviously about installing stuff into Firefox
  254. # [10:09] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-23-58.dynamic.amis.net)
  255. # [10:10] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I think the Google Update plug-in doesn't involve meaningful consent
  256. # [10:11] <othermaciej> The QuickTime plugin is mainly bundled for Safari's actual use
  257. # [10:11] <othermaciej> though I suppose we could go out of our way to keep other browsers from finding it, but that would be weird
  258. # [10:11] <othermaciej> Apple's not really pushing QuickTime plugin as a way to deliver video so who knows what will happen in the future
  259. # [10:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: to make <video> work in Safari, you need to install QuickTime. And as a side effect, Apple puts code into other browsers on the system, too
  260. # [10:11] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  261. # [10:12] <othermaciej> making <video> work in Safari for Windows is bundled with making QuickTime plugin content work in Safari for Windows
  262. # [10:12] <othermaciej> which also happens to make it work in other browsers
  263. # [10:13] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@dhcp-111-245.public.vu.nl)
  264. # [10:13] <othermaciej> (on Mac of course all three of Safari, Safari's ability to play <video> content, and the QuickTime plugin, are bundled with the OS)
  265. # [10:14] <hsivonen> othermaciej: aren't there two QuickTime plug-ins on Mac?
  266. # [10:14] <hsivonen> othermaciej: one for Safari and another for other browsers?
  267. # [10:14] <abarth> hsivonen: what's the name of the plugin that chrome installs?
  268. # [10:14] <abarth> Google Update ?
  269. # [10:15] <othermaciej> hsivonen: there used to be, but that is no longer true
  270. # [10:15] <zewt> yeah that's what's in my FF install
  271. # [10:15] <zewt> (which I assume is from Chrome; the only other Google stuff I have installed is Android dev tools)
  272. # [10:15] <hsivonen> abarth: that's what zewt said above. I don't have a Windows VM running to confirm the name right now, but I've seen it myself, too
  273. # [10:15] <othermaciej> we are de-emphasizing WebKit-specific plugins and in fact they no longer work in Safari 5.1
  274. # [10:15] <othermaciej> since there was no sane way to make them work with multiprocess
  275. # [10:15] <abarth> ah, the pack thing
  276. # [10:15] <abarth> http://www.google.com/support/pack/bin/answer.py?answer=30252
  277. # [10:16] <hsivonen> abarth: I got it without ever trying to install a "Pack"
  278. # [10:16] <othermaciej> at least since SnowLeopard there has been only one QuickTime plug-in
  279. # [10:16] <hsivonen> othermaciej: oh. ok
  280. # [10:17] <hsivonen> so Safari 5.1 will break Click-to-Flash?
  281. # [10:18] <abarth> hsivonen: this the problem with arbitrary code
  282. # [10:18] <abarth> hsivonen: its hard to stop people from dumping junk in places it doesn't belong
  283. # [10:18] <othermaciej> it won't break the Click-to-Flash Safari extension
  284. # [10:18] <othermaciej> I don't know if the plugin-based version is still active
  285. # [10:19] <hsivonen> I was unaware that Click-to-Flash had migrated into an extension
  286. # [10:20] <abarth> i wonder if there's some pseudo technical solution whereby you require some kind of on-disk assertion claim that the user actively consented to the install
  287. # [10:20] * Quits: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  288. # [10:20] <othermaciej> the plugin-based version looks like it hasn't been touched in a year or two and there is indeed an extension, though not by the same person
  289. # [10:20] <abarth> and then people who forged that would look silly and get bad PR
  290. # [10:21] <othermaciej> the only way to really solve this problem is to limit software installs to a curated walled garden, and sandbox the hell out of everything
  291. # [10:21] <abarth> :)
  292. # [10:21] <othermaciej> not to say there aren't arguable downsides to that approach
  293. # [10:21] <othermaciej> but seriously
  294. # [10:21] <zewt> it's discouraging that Google is setting such a bad example, though, which makes everyone else go "Google does it, so it's okay!"
  295. # [10:22] <abarth> yep :(
  296. # [10:22] * Joins: Akilo (~kristof@195.154.143.244)
  297. # [10:23] <othermaciej> I wonder if it is on purpose or a side effect
  298. # [10:23] <othermaciej> when Microsoft products install an plugin picked up by Firefox, that's clearly not just a side effect of doing it for IE
  299. # [10:24] <abarth> i suspect the plugin is useful for pack
  300. # [10:24] <abarth> i don't know whether the install is intentional for non-pack installs
  301. # [10:24] <abarth> its the thing that manages which pieces of pack you've got installed
  302. # [10:24] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  303. # [10:25] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  304. # [10:25] * Quits: RichardJ (~richard@node.liefcoden.nl) (Quit: /gone)
  305. # [10:25] * Joins: RichardJ (~richard@node.liefcoden.nl)
  306. # [10:25] * Joins: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  307. # [10:27] <hsivonen> Google Update seems to enable special powers on google.com. Is there any way to find out how well in locks itself to google.com to prevent random sites from exercising the special powers?
  308. # [10:27] <hsivonen> likewise for Genuine Advantage Validation
  309. # [10:28] <hsivonen> it's also about giving special powers to Microsoft sites and isn't meant to be used by random third parties
  310. # [10:28] <abarth> hsivonen: there's no good way in NPAPI to figure out what site you're on
  311. # [10:28] <abarth> so folks copy the hack that Flash uses
  312. # [10:28] <hsivonen> in principle, the QuickTime plug-in is general purpose, but in practice, it too is in practice used for apple.com only these days :-)
  313. # [10:29] <abarth> if you don't copy the hack precisely correctly, you run into security trouble
  314. # [10:29] <othermaciej> is Google Update limit itself to SSL google.com?
  315. # [10:29] <hsivonen> s/in practice//
  316. # [10:29] <abarth> one hopes!
  317. # [10:29] <abarth> even then there are problems
  318. # [10:29] <abarth> if you assume users click through certificate errors
  319. # [10:29] <hsivonen> abarth: what's the hack?
  320. # [10:29] <abarth> i suspect it verifies the signature on binaries
  321. # [10:29] <othermaciej> I don't think apple.com uses the QuickTime plug-in much
  322. # [10:30] <abarth> since that's how omaha works
  323. # [10:30] <othermaciej> almost all video content I know of on apple.com is <video>
  324. # [10:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: for Safari, yes
  325. # [10:30] <abarth> hsivonen: using a JavaScript URL to read the value of window.location.href
  326. # [10:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: for other browsers, no
  327. # [10:30] <hsivonen> abarth: scary
  328. # [10:30] <abarth> yes, it doesn't actually work
  329. # [10:30] <abarth> except that we've made it work by brute force
  330. # [10:31] <abarth> we need a real NPAPI for getting this information
  331. # [10:31] * Quits: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  332. # [10:31] <abarth> Peleus is supposed to propose something on plugin-futures
  333. # [10:32] <abarth> but I think he's been buried recently with flash security issues
  334. # [10:32] <hsivonen> if Apple.com was a normal H.264 site, it would use Flash Player instead of QuickTime Plug-in :-)
  335. # [10:33] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.80)
  336. # [10:34] * Joins: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au)
  337. # [10:35] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@d54C02C64.access.telenet.be)
  338. # [10:41] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@2406:a000:f0ff:fffe::3461) (Quit: Leaving.)
  339. # [10:41] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-3-203.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  340. # [10:43] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  341. # [10:45] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@203.210.202.112)
  342. # [10:46] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.80) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  343. # [10:47] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  344. # [10:49] <asmodai> *groan* http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/06/ny-post-blocks-access-to-its-website-on-ipads-to-drive-app-purchases.ars
  345. # [10:53] * Joins: kor (~kor@g153078.upc-g.chello.nl)
  346. # [10:54] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-3-203.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204])
  347. # [10:56] <hsivonen> asmodai: that's not good. rumor has it that similar things have happened on Android, too
  348. # [10:56] <hsivonen> why aren't they doing the same to Windows?
  349. # [10:56] <hsivonen> (yes, I know there's no App Store on Windows)
  350. # [10:57] * Joins: laxminarayan (~laxminara@220.227.89.237)
  351. # [10:57] <laxminarayan> hi .. was readign the first paragraph, and was wondering why HTML (or any other) spec version numbers cant be like version numbers of many open source softwares? Odd ones unstable, and even ones stable
  352. # [10:57] <laxminarayan> http://diveintohtml5.org/past.html
  353. # [10:58] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-5ed9e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  354. # [11:02] * Joins: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  355. # [11:04] * Joins: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au)
  356. # [11:04] <hsivonen> laxminarayan: stable releases of specs are obsolete upon publication
  357. # [11:06] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@92.103.127.226)
  358. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> so if ICANN creates, say, a .js TLD, who gets to own that TLD?
  359. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> or .app
  360. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> or whatever else
  361. # [11:07] <zcorpan> i guess pubsuffix will need to list TLDs now as well
  362. # [11:08] <zcorpan> uh, or maybe not
  363. # [11:08] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You do
  364. # [11:08] <jgraham> We asked ICANN specially
  365. # [11:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'd expect the ownership to be about money. Why else would they create more TLDs?
  366. # [11:09] <jgraham> And they said, "yeah he's that guy, isn't he? Sure thing!"
  367. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> eh
  368. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> heh
  369. # [11:09] <asmodai> hsivonen: the open web is really threated by such moves :(
  370. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> jgraham: as long as the cash goes in my pocket instead of the other way around
  371. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, around $185,000 USD apparently
  372. # [11:10] <asmodai> I wonder how this tradename TLD stuff will work out in the end. I mean, all fun to have .apple and be able to do http://apple/ or http://store.apple/ - kind of reminds of keywords in the CompuServe days
  373. # [11:10] <asmodai> MikeSmith: And EUR 17000 a year
  374. # [11:10] <asmodai> so, USD 19000 or so?
  375. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> geez
  376. # [11:11] <zcorpan> app.store
  377. # [11:11] <asmodai> zcorpan: Heh
  378. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> Joyent seems to like Javascript, and has money
  379. # [11:11] <asmodai> zcorpan: I can see the lawsuits starting.
  380. # [11:11] <jgraham> I'm surprised they're not doing it by auction
  381. # [11:12] <hsivonen> who gets to pocket the $185K?
  382. # [11:12] <zcorpan> is there a length limit on TLDs?
  383. # [11:12] <jgraham> Presumably .sex and .apple will be more valuable than .quuz
  384. # [11:13] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM1-113-114-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  385. # [11:13] <MikeSmith_> hsivonen: dunno who gets the money. I guess I assumed it went to ICAAN
  386. # [11:13] <MikeSmith_> or ISOC
  387. # [11:15] <hsivonen> does ISOC like gratuitous TLDs now?
  388. # [11:15] <zcorpan> who gets the money?
  389. # [11:15] <zcorpan> every dollar of it.
  390. # [11:15] <asmodai> first they're bitching for years about xxx
  391. # [11:15] <MikeSmith_> I guess ISOC probably likes it better if they are the ones getting money for it instead of somebody else
  392. # [11:16] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-100-52.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  393. # [11:16] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  394. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> asmodai: I guess once the went xxx they had to go full-absurd and permit whatever else
  395. # [11:18] <asmodai> heh
  396. # [11:19] <zcorpan> interesting that there were 16 people who voted about this change
  397. # [11:19] <hsivonen> why do email apps have to suck this much
  398. # [11:20] <foolip> zcorpan, yes, we'd fire canplaythrough again for example if you play through to the end and then seek back to the middle
  399. # [11:20] <zcorpan> foolip: ok. then we're compliant :)
  400. # [11:24] <zcorpan> <http://www.w3.org/mid/E6F26D0D-5F1D-4E4F-9793-DC93D4EBCFF5@netflix.com> - yes, let's have flamewars about who can and can't be Editorial Assistants
  401. # [11:27] <asmodai> So I decided to use Google's HTML5 video support yesterday. Not entirely sure if I like the current lack of full screen mode. Sucks when using 2+ monitors to watch livestreams on 1, you lose some screen estate due to the browser window.
  402. # [11:27] <asmodai> I understand the security concerns though.
  403. # [11:33] <othermaciej> there is no real security issue with video fullscreen
  404. # [11:33] <nessy> it's in the process of getting implemented FAIK
  405. # [11:34] <othermaciej> YouTube uses full-window in HTML5 mode instead of fullscreen because they want custom controls
  406. # [11:34] <othermaciej> Safari 5.1 enables fullscreen video with custom controls so hopefully they will adopt that (I think Vimeo already has)
  407. # [11:38] <asmodai> That's odd, when I searched on this the reason cited was security concerns with full screen ads taking over in a programmatic way.
  408. # [11:39] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  409. # [11:40] <asmodai> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1055214/is-there-a-way-to-make-html5-video-fullscreen
  410. # [11:41] <jgraham> zcorpan: Would make a nice change from flamewars about who should be allowed to have an opinion in flamewars about accessibility
  411. # [11:42] <asmodai> rofl
  412. # [11:45] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  413. # [11:46] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193) (Quit: Leaving)
  414. # [11:48] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-23-58.dynamic.amis.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  415. # [11:48] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193)
  416. # [11:55] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-8.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  417. # [11:55] <zewt> othermaciej: well, hopefully nobody will adopt a fullscreen api that's *specific* to video...
  418. # [11:56] <othermaciej> Safari used to have one that was specific to video, we are now adding one that is generic to any element
  419. # [11:56] <zewt> (that would just delay a real API)
  420. # [11:56] <othermaciej> (in the just-released Safari developer preview)
  421. # [11:56] * Joins: matjas (u2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fommjxsssghtmmwg)
  422. # [11:56] <zewt> (i'm always nervous at deployed half-measures, for that reason)
  423. # [11:58] <hsivonen> othermaciej: what mechanism will Safari 5.1 use for enabling custom controls for full screen video?
  424. # [11:58] <othermaciej> hsivonen: our implementation of the Mozilla-proposed fullscreen API
  425. # [11:59] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au) (Quit: ben_h)
  426. # [11:59] <othermaciej> which really should be turned into a real spec and maybe I'll try to get someone at Apple to do that
  427. # [11:59] <othermaciej> we found many issues with the original design while implementing, some not yet fixed in our implementation
  428. # [11:59] <othermaciej> we are shipping it webkit-prefixed
  429. # [11:59] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it's nice that you went with roc's proposal
  430. # [12:00] <hsivonen> thanks
  431. # [12:00] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: is it written down anywhere that Chairs appoint editors?
  432. # [12:00] <othermaciej> hsivonen: well, there's a lot of stuff that needs to be fixed in it but we ran out of time
  433. # [12:00] <othermaciej> fortunately what we shipped is prefixed
  434. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: dunno, will take a look
  435. # [12:00] <othermaciej> however I doubt we will be able to stop video sites from using it
  436. # [12:01] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I couldn't find anything to that effect (or indeed any mention of editors) in the W3C Process Document
  437. # [12:01] <othermaciej> ah, found it
  438. # [12:01] <othermaciej> "Every technical report published as part of the technical report development process is edited by one or more editors appointed by a Working Group Chair. "
  439. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> ok
  440. # [12:03] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  441. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> so it seems pretty clear the editorial appointments are at the discretion of the chairs
  442. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> if you want, I can talk to plh about this
  443. # [12:04] <othermaciej> no need
  444. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> and if he agrees and you think it'd help, I can ask him to post a message to the thread on public-html confirming that
  445. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> OK
  446. # [12:05] <othermaciej> I was just looking for a cite for Mark Watson, and I couldn't find one at first, which made me wonder if this wasn't written down anywhere
  447. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> I would post a message myself confirming it, but that I don't think that would carry a whole lot of weight in this group
  448. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> OK
  449. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> I hope that will satisfy Mark's question
  450. # [12:09] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@dhcp-111-245.public.vu.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  451. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> hmm, gerv is listed as one of the owners of the BugMail.pm code
  452. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> I wonder if he actually still has time to work on it actively at all
  453. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> would be nice to get his feedback about how to improve the plain-text output to remove that ascii-table-layout stuff
  454. # [12:13] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  455. # [12:15] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  456. # [12:15] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  457. # [12:15] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  458. # [12:16] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  459. # [12:23] <annevk> hmm
  460. # [12:23] * Joins: simplicity-- (~simpli@109.59.10.16)
  461. # [12:23] <annevk> will have to see if I get to a WHATWG Weekly today
  462. # [12:24] <annevk> if I do it will likely be vastly incomplete, but I guess that is unavoidable anyway
  463. # [12:24] * Quits: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  464. # [12:25] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  465. # [12:27] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  466. # [12:30] * antti_s is now known as antti_s2
  467. # [12:30] <annevk> Inbox 1337
  468. # [12:32] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  469. # [12:38] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  470. # [12:41] <annevk> a shit
  471. # [12:41] <annevk> CORS is moving into some other WG
  472. # [12:41] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2010/07/appsecwg-charter
  473. # [12:41] <annevk> I guess I knew that already
  474. # [12:42] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  475. # [12:43] <hsivonen> hmm. isn't moving security to a different group like putting a11y or i18n in a dedicated group?
  476. # [12:43] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  477. # [12:43] <hsivonen> whoa. is UMP still alive?
  478. # [12:46] * Quits: simplicity-- (~simpli@109.59.10.16) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  479. # [12:49] <annevk> hsivonen, it does not strike me as a good idea
  480. # [12:49] <annevk> hsivonen, I think at some point Hixie and I might end up merging "fetch" and CORS
  481. # [12:57] <hsivonen> is there a spec that says what createDocument().readyState must return?
  482. # [12:57] <annevk> HTML5 should define that
  483. # [12:58] * Quits: Akilo (~kristof@195.154.143.244) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  484. # [12:58] <othermaciej> "Deliverables under this work item will be published as joint deliverables with the Web Applications Working Group."
  485. # [12:59] <othermaciej> not sure what the value of that is
  486. # [12:59] <othermaciej> not to mention it seems this would require an update of the Web Apps charter
  487. # [12:59] <hsivonen> othermaciej: at least RDFa being done as a joint venture between the XHTML2 WG and a SemWeb group was considered to be of value
  488. # [13:00] <othermaciej> hsivonen: are you trolling me?
  489. # [13:00] <hsivonen> othermaciej: whenever someone says RDFa was done by the XHTML2 WG, there's someone else reminding that it was a joint venture
  490. # [13:00] <othermaciej> (I can't tell)
  491. # [13:00] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  492. # [13:00] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I'm not. just making an observation about the previous joint venture I'm aware of
  493. # [13:05] * Joins: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  494. # [13:06] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  495. # [13:06] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  496. # [13:08] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  497. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: now that the Web Notifications WG chair is back, I think he should please do some lobbying to get Notifications support into more browser engines
  498. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> e.g., Opera for one
  499. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> http://caniuse.com/#search=notifications don't look so nice
  500. # [13:11] <annevk> hsivonen, it should return "complete" per HTML5
  501. # [13:11] * Joins: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au)
  502. # [13:12] <smaug____> MikeSmith: I should kick dougt to implement those in Fx.
  503. # [13:12] <hsivonen> annevk: but why?
  504. # [13:12] <hsivonen> annevk: readyState is an IE API originally and IE says uninitialized
  505. # [13:13] <smaug____> MikeSmith: did the other notification API disappear. The not-so-good which allowed url loading?
  506. # [13:13] <annevk> hsivonen, I'm just telling you what the spec says
  507. # [13:13] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  508. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> smaug____: yes, please do get dougt attention on it
  509. # [13:13] <smaug____> ah, it is still here http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/WebNotifications.html
  510. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> yeah
  511. # [13:13] <annevk> hsivonen, it does make more sense to me than uninitialized though if this is about loading primarily
  512. # [13:13] <annevk> hsivonen, well, readyness
  513. # [13:13] <hsivonen> annevk: see topic
  514. # [13:13] <smaug____> MikeSmith: I assume you mean http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/Notifications.html
  515. # [13:14] <smaug____> MikeSmith: I mean, you want that to be implemented
  516. # [13:14] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au) (Client Quit)
  517. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> smaug____: yep
  518. # [13:14] * hsivonen is unhappy about stuff like this arbitrarily getting made logical
  519. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> smaug____: Chrome's the only app so far that supports any of it
  520. # [13:14] <smaug____> Mobile Fx should have some support
  521. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> and it does support the URL part
  522. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> ok
  523. # [13:15] * jgraham is not very happy about the URL part
  524. # [13:15] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  525. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> I'm curious how this will end up being implemented on mobile platforms
  526. # [13:15] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@2001:610:110:4d1:21b:63ff:feb0:faec)
  527. # [13:16] <jgraham> I think text-only notifications are the right first step
  528. # [13:16] <smaug____> I agree
  529. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> I don't know what kind of useful notification mechanisms most mobile OSes/platforms have these days
  530. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> I can't remember who it was that was keen on the URL part
  531. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> maybe it was just the editor :)
  532. # [13:16] <jgraham> Google
  533. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> I think there are some even on the Chrome team that weren't so keen on it
  534. # [13:17] <jgraham> Well yes, I don't expect total internal harmony
  535. # [13:17] <jgraham> On anything really
  536. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> in other news, I'm wondering if caniuse.com exposes any kind of API that would be useful for integration into other sites
  537. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> e.g., we could use it annotate the spec with stability annotations
  538. # [13:18] <annevk> I believe WebOS has something like it
  539. # [13:18] <smaug____> MikeSmith: does Chrome implement notification API using webkit or chrome prefix?
  540. # [13:19] <hsivonen> the URL-based notification stuff was a done deal for Chrome, so of course it's part of HTML5 and the Web
  541. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> smaug____: webkit-* I think
  542. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: maybe the chair should put some thought into that
  543. # [13:20] * hsivonen is still grumpy about how Chrome Notifications were announced as HTML5 Notifications
  544. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> well, we have a real spec for it now
  545. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> so that's all water under the bridge
  546. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> along with a lot of other such water
  547. # [13:21] * jgraham is still grumpy
  548. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> waiting to resurface and drown us all eventually
  549. # [13:21] <jgraham> Just in general
  550. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> i'm mostly just trying to give annevk a hard time
  551. # [13:21] <smaug____> hsivonen: Google did the same with HTML Speech. "Chrome implements HTML5 Speech API" (although there isn't such thing)
  552. # [13:22] <hsivonen> smaug____: yeah, that, too
  553. # [13:22] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Since he has been buming around for months, he deserves it :)
  554. # [13:22] <hsivonen> maybe Mozilla should have branded the Firefox Audio API as the HTML5 Audio API
  555. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> the world seems more right now that annevk is back at work
  556. # [13:24] <annevk> feels kind of odd still to be back at work
  557. # [13:24] * MikeSmith joins #bugzilla on irc.mozilla.org in anticipation of hoping to get some a11y changes made upstream
  558. # [13:24] <smaug____> annevk: hope you had a great vacation
  559. # [13:24] <jgraham> You anticipate hoping to get them made? Do you also anticipate getting them made?
  560. # [13:25] <jgraham> :)
  561. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yes (to one of those questions)
  562. # [13:26] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@112-68-250-132f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  563. # [13:26] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  564. # [13:27] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  565. # [13:33] * Quits: laxminarayan (~laxminara@220.227.89.237) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  566. # [13:37] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  567. # [13:39] * Quits: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  568. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> great
  569. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> so glob just marked my bugzilla enhancement request as a simple duplicate of another bug
  570. # [13:40] <annevk> http://www.contextis.com/resources/blog/webgl2/
  571. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> except that bug actually has nothing at all to do with the request I'm making
  572. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah :(
  573. # [13:41] * Parts: sdowne (~scott@142.204.133.36)
  574. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> hopefully we can get those problems fixed
  575. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: but as you may have seen (or will see as you get through e-mail backlog), the problems described there are not necessarily unique to WebGL
  576. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> but general problems that any API that reaches down into graphics-cards innards is going to run into
  577. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> or has already run into and not actually fixed yet either
  578. # [13:43] <hsivonen> annevk: https://twitter.com/#!/m_bitsnbites/status/82716250001772544
  579. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> jesus, are there actually a lot of programs that are hard-coded to parse that table-layout stuff in bugzilla e-mail notifications
  580. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> if so, well, what a sad state of affairs that is
  581. # [13:45] <heycam> MikeSmith, maybe you can make it send an text/html part?
  582. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> heycam: that is actually what bugzilla 4.2 is going to do
  583. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> but that's not a fix
  584. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> it's great to have an alternative
  585. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> but there are plenty of people who still use the plain-text stuff and want it to actually be readable
  586. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> e.g., Janina uses mutt
  587. # [13:46] <heycam> hey, I use mutt
  588. # [13:46] <heycam> :)
  589. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> I do too :)
  590. # [13:48] <heycam> curses-based applications probably aren't great for blind users, admittedly
  591. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> well, Janina seems to be able to work with it pretty well in spite of that
  592. # [13:49] <heycam> interesting
  593. # [13:49] * Joins: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au)
  594. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> and she does for a lot of other stuff too that most people would wonder how a non-sighted user could ever deal with it
  595. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> anyway, it ain't too call to tell Janina she can't get screenreader-readable plain-text notifications from bugzilla because too bad sorry there are so many programs that rely on the parsing the current fecking table-layout formatting that was a misguided idea to begin with
  596. # [13:50] <heycam> yeah, that sucks
  597. # [13:50] <heycam> I wonder, if using a curses-based interfaces, if there is really any better way to aurally presents tables, though
  598. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> point is, there is absolutely no reason why it needs to be presented in a (pseudo) table format anyway
  599. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> it could just be a list
  600. # [13:51] <heycam> oh, true
  601. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> yeah, it's more redundant
  602. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> and less purty
  603. # [13:52] <heycam> (the purtyness is debatable)
  604. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> yeah
  605. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> and anyway, who the fuck cares how purty the bugzilla e-mail notifications they get are
  606. # [13:53] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  607. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> I feel the need for a j break coming on
  608. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> calming effects of green tea alone are not powerful enough for this case
  609. # [13:58] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@94-193-96-179.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
  610. # [13:59] <annevk> Hixie, btw, very much in favor of merging HTML and WA 1.0
  611. # [14:00] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp78-37-253-71.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  612. # [14:00] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  613. # [14:03] * Quits: realityking (~rouven@f049003103.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  614. # [14:05] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  615. # [14:06] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  616. # [14:06] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  617. # [14:07] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lod/2011Jun/0082.html
  618. # [14:08] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  619. # [14:09] * Joins: realityking (~rouven@f048238236.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  620. # [14:11] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lod/2011Jun/0269.html
  621. # [14:17] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
  622. # [14:17] <annevk> sweet
  623. # [14:18] <annevk> I like that guy
  624. # [14:18] <annevk> he was once at a HTML WG meeting too, very practical and straightforward
  625. # [14:20] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  626. # [14:20] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  627. # [14:22] <asmodai> annevk: well formulated answer/point
  628. # [14:22] <asmodai> annevk: Working for a university atm I totally recognize the NIH mentality
  629. # [14:22] <asmodai> and the "not looking beyond academic application" part
  630. # [14:25] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.243.14)
  631. # [14:26] * Joins: jonatasnona (~jonatas@lba.inpa.gov.br)
  632. # [14:28] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  633. # [14:31] <gsnedders> annevk: Yeah, he's very awesome. Esp. talking about academia in such terms while being a researcher (at Edinburgh).
  634. # [14:32] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au) (Quit: ben_h)
  635. # [14:34] * Joins: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au)
  636. # [14:38] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  637. # [14:39] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  638. # [14:43] * Joins: _bga (~bga@ppp91-122-184-42.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  639. # [14:45] * Quits: bga_ (~bga@ppp78-37-253-71.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  640. # [14:47] <annevk> anyone care to quickly login to the blog and review my draft?
  641. # [14:47] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  642. # [14:48] <annevk> gonna publish in a few minutes otherwise
  643. # [14:48] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  644. # [14:52] <hsivonen> annevk: looking at your draft
  645. # [14:53] <hsivonen> annevk: looks ok
  646. # [14:54] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  647. # [14:54] <annevk> cool, I guess if people point out a bunch of stuff I missed I can do another one on Thursday or so
  648. # [14:55] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@92.103.127.226) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  649. # [14:55] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  650. # [14:58] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  651. # [15:00] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@92.103.127.226)
  652. # [15:10] <annevk> Is anyone going to send in Last Call comments for DOM Level 3 Events?
  653. # [15:10] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@94-193-96-179.zone7.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: micheil)
  654. # [15:17] * Quits: tbassetto (~tbassetto@anj75-2-88-162-180-30.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  655. # [15:19] * Parts: rwaldron (~Rick@75-150-66-249-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) ("Leaving")
  656. # [15:21] * Quits: Ephemera (~Ephemera@61.41.24.114) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  657. # [15:23] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  658. # [15:26] <annevk> Inbox <1000
  659. # [15:26] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  660. # [15:30] <asmodai> lol, on twitter: ICANN haz .cheezburger?
  661. # [15:30] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193)
  662. # [15:33] <annevk> hahaha
  663. # [15:35] <annevk> I raised DOM Level 3 Events issues and never got a personal reply...
  664. # [15:38] * Quits: Ankheg (~Ankheg@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  665. # [15:43] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@109.231.193.164)
  666. # [15:47] * Joins: hdhoang1 (~hdhoang@203.210.206.203)
  667. # [15:47] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@203.210.202.112) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  668. # [15:55] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au) (Quit: ben_h)
  669. # [15:56] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
  670. # [15:58] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  671. # [15:58] * Joins: broquaint (b8b63ff526@78.47.79.137)
  672. # [15:59] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  673. # [16:03] * Joins: pdr2 (~pdr2@nat/google/x-wybiuijozicefzrr)
  674. # [16:06] * Joins: Ephemera (~Ephemera@61.41.24.114)
  675. # [16:11] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  676. # [16:11] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  677. # [16:18] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@ZH073144.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  678. # [16:19] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  679. # [16:20] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  680. # [16:20] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-049fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  681. # [16:21] * Joins: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@adsl-74-162-132-180.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  682. # [16:28] * Parts: Peter` (~peter@nishino.lvp-media.com)
  683. # [16:30] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (~eric_carl@2620:149:4:401:217:f2ff:fe03:a2e)
  684. # [16:31] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Disconnected by services)
  685. # [16:31] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
  686. # [16:31] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  687. # [16:32] * Quits: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@adsl-74-162-132-180.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  688. # [16:34] * Quits: realityking (~rouven@f048238236.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  689. # [16:39] * Quits: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  690. # [16:40] * Joins: realityking (~rouven@f049049130.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  691. # [16:47] * Quits: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  692. # [17:00] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193) (Quit: Leaving)
  693. # [17:03] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  694. # [17:06] * Joins: 5EXACUDPT (~quassel@188.24.41.206)
  695. # [17:10] * Joins: kalc4 (~kalc4@78.149.123.232)
  696. # [17:11] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.165)
  697. # [17:13] * Quits: 5EXACUDPT (~quassel@188.24.41.206) (Remote host closed the connection)
  698. # [17:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM1-113-114-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  699. # [17:15] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@72.11.82.226)
  700. # [17:18] * Joins: 5EXACUDSL (~quassel@188.24.41.206)
  701. # [17:18] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.165) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  702. # [17:18] * Quits: 5EXACUDSL (~quassel@188.24.41.206) (Remote host closed the connection)
  703. # [17:19] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.22.49)
  704. # [17:21] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-14-128.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  705. # [17:24] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  706. # [17:29] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@ZH073144.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  707. # [17:33] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-8.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  708. # [17:34] * Quits: kor (~kor@g153078.upc-g.chello.nl) (Quit: kor)
  709. # [17:35] * Joins: dhx_z (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au)
  710. # [17:35] * Quits: dhx_z (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  711. # [17:35] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  712. # [17:36] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  713. # [17:36] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-8-33.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  714. # [17:36] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.22.49) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  715. # [17:37] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.21.115)
  716. # [17:38] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  717. # [17:42] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-8.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  718. # [17:45] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa09-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  719. # [17:46] * Quits: hdhoang1 (~hdhoang@203.210.206.203) (Quit: Leaving.)
  720. # [17:51] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@109.231.193.164) (Quit: http://brandedcode.com | http://github.com/miksago)
  721. # [17:52] * Joins: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  722. # [17:53] <karlcow> https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dd4bk538_182f55p5x3f
  723. # [17:54] <karlcow> All About EVE Extensibility, Versioning, Evolvabiility, etc. thru Modifiability Mike Amundsen
  724. # [17:57] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
  725. # [17:57] <AryehGregor> Nice, this Flash form I'm filling out (which would have been dead simple to do in HTML+JS, doesn't use any special Flash features) doesn't support RTL properly.
  726. # [17:57] <AryehGregor> I'd have thought Flash would be less incompetent than that.
  727. # [17:58] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  728. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> Plus, somehow it doesn't work in Chrome, but does in Firefox.
  729. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> Write once run everywhere, huh?
  730. # [18:00] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-14-128.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Deyr fé deyja, frændr deyr, sjálfr et sama)
  731. # [18:01] <hsivonen> karlcow: that slide set has the highest concentration of Fielding quotes I've ever seen on a slide set
  732. # [18:02] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@2001:610:110:4d1:21b:63ff:feb0:faec) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  733. # [18:05] <jgraham> It looks less like a presentation and more like a sermon from the Gospel according to Roy
  734. # [18:08] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  735. # [18:08] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa09-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  736. # [18:10] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.41.206)
  737. # [18:15] * Quits: Ephemera (~Ephemera@61.41.24.114) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  738. # [18:15] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  739. # [18:19] * Quits: payman (~payman@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  740. # [18:20] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c)
  741. # [18:22] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-8.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  742. # [18:23] * Joins: Ephemera (~Ephemera@61.41.24.114)
  743. # [18:29] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@20.74.9.46.customer.cdi.no)
  744. # [18:36] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  745. # [18:37] * Joins: Juul (~Juul@tahoe0.imm.dtu.dk)
  746. # [18:40] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  747. # [18:42] * Joins: retornam (~retornam@2620:101:8003:200:1293:e9ff:fe5c:e6c5)
  748. # [18:42] * Joins: clair (~clair@host86-163-151-50.range86-163.btcentralplus.com)
  749. # [18:44] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  750. # [18:45] * Joins: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM114-48-14-128.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  751. # [18:53] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  752. # [18:55] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.246.17.121)
  753. # [19:01] * Quits: woef (~woef@79.232-136-217.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  754. # [19:02] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.21.115) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  755. # [19:03] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  756. # [19:03] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.158)
  757. # [19:03] * Quits: Juul (~Juul@tahoe0.imm.dtu.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
  758. # [19:05] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  759. # [19:05] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
  760. # [19:07] * Joins: miketayl_r (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  761. # [19:08] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  762. # [19:09] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.21.163)
  763. # [19:11] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  764. # [19:12] * Quits: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-uhtidzgujaiaujpe) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  765. # [19:13] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  766. # [19:14] * Quits: miketayl_r (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Remote host closed the connection)
  767. # [19:14] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  768. # [19:15] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  769. # [19:18] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.158) (Disconnected by services)
  770. # [19:18] * Joins: xCG (~CvP@123.49.23.158)
  771. # [19:19] * xCG is now known as CvP
  772. # [19:24] * Joins: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-xfjcelglzojuixia)
  773. # [19:27] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-175-180.dynamic.qsc.de)
  774. # [19:27] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@178.74.10.250)
  775. # [19:28] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  776. # [19:32] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@ZYYMMMXLIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  777. # [19:33] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  778. # [19:34] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.158) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  779. # [19:35] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-sbjymlzlvtwgsaes)
  780. # [19:35] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@203.210.206.203)
  781. # [19:36] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.110.62)
  782. # [19:36] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  783. # [19:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM114-48-14-128.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  784. # [19:38] * Quits: realityking (~rouven@f049049130.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Quit: realityking)
  785. # [19:40] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  786. # [19:40] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.110.62) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  787. # [19:41] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  788. # [19:42] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.33)
  789. # [19:44] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c) (Quit: brb)
  790. # [19:44] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.110.62)
  791. # [19:44] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  792. # [19:45] * Joins: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM114-48-14-128.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  793. # [19:47] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  794. # [19:48] * Joins: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  795. # [19:51] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-jgpxtgyccjqkzauq)
  796. # [19:52] * Joins: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@rrcs-24-206-36-125.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  797. # [19:52] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.243.14) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  798. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Ugh, some browsers seem to have magic rendering rules for contenteditable.
  799. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> Especially IE, but I just found one in WebKit too -- &nbsp; behaves differently.
  800. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> (It seems to provide a breaking opportunity, but not collapse.)
  801. # [19:54] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-20-29.dynamic.amis.net)
  802. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> &nbsp; provides a breaking opportunity in contenteditable?
  803. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1041
  804. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Try removing "contenteditable" and you'll see it changes.
  805. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> Wow.
  806. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> In Chrome 14 dev.
  807. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> That's retarded.
  808. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Well, it makes some sense if you look at how and why nbsp's are inserted in contenteditable.
  809. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> For instance, if you have <b>foo</b>bar with your cursor between "foo" and "bar", and hit space, WebKit will insert nbsp when it should insert a space.
  810. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> So it looks like an extra bug added to work around other bugs.
  811. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> That's my guess, anyway.
  812. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> So, still retarded.
  813. # [19:58] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.33) (Disconnected by services)
  814. # [19:58] * Joins: xCG (~CvP@123.49.23.33)
  815. # [19:59] <AryehGregor> Well, yeah. But I'm not even going to try defining when something should be nbsp and when it should be space -- it's way too complicated if you don't have access to the CSS line boxes.
  816. # [19:59] <AryehGregor> Which WebKit maybe does, so maybe should do better than me.
  817. # [19:59] * xCG is now known as CvP
  818. # [19:59] <AryehGregor> Maybe I'll just have to define something I can't properly add to my JavaScript implementation.
  819. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> Gecko is even crazier. A regular space at the end of a line doesn't collapse, in contenteditable.
  820. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> I don't know why it doesn't just insert nbsp like everyone else.
  821. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> IE is like Gecko.
  822. # [20:11] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.33) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  823. # [20:11] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.33)
  824. # [20:13] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  825. # [20:13] * Joins: Martijnc_ (~Martijnc@d54C02C64.access.telenet.be)
  826. # [20:13] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@d54C02C64.access.telenet.be) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  827. # [20:13] * Martijnc_ is now known as Martijnc
  828. # [20:15] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.53)
  829. # [20:15] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  830. # [20:20] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.33) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  831. # [20:20] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.33)
  832. # [20:21] * Joins: zdobersek1 (~zan@90.157.241.119)
  833. # [20:22] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  834. # [20:22] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  835. # [20:24] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-20-29.dynamic.amis.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  836. # [20:24] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@20.74.9.46.customer.cdi.no) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  837. # [20:25] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@92.103.127.226) (Quit: jeremyselier)
  838. # [20:28] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  839. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Why is a string index a valid lval if assigning to it doesn't work? I mean, if s is a string, you can do s[0] = "x", but it doesn't actually change s, so why doesn't it throw?
  840. # [20:30] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.33) (Disconnected by services)
  841. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> What about in strict mode?
  842. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Bingo.
  843. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Another reason to always use strict mode.
  844. # [20:32] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.41.206) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  845. # [20:34] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.246.17.121) (Remote host closed the connection)
  846. # [20:34] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.203.14.199)
  847. # [20:35] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.22.169)
  848. # [20:36] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@ZYYMMMXLIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  849. # [20:37] * Joins: mokush_ (~quassel@188.24.41.206)
  850. # [20:39] * jer|afk is now known as jernoble
  851. # [20:39] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-ozjiydjxihoxxndu)
  852. # [20:39] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.110.62) (Quit: othermaciej)
  853. # [20:43] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@203.210.206.203) (Quit: Leaving.)
  854. # [20:44] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  855. # [20:45] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: Snuggling with the puppies)
  856. # [20:46] * Joins: xCG (~CvP@123.49.22.169)
  857. # [20:46] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-175-180.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  858. # [20:46] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.22.169) (Disconnected by services)
  859. # [20:46] * xCG is now known as CvP
  860. # [20:49] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  861. # [20:49] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-sbjymlzlvtwgsaes) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  862. # [20:51] * Quits: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM114-48-14-128.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  863. # [20:51] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c)
  864. # [20:51] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  865. # [20:52] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  866. # [20:52] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
  867. # [20:55] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-oblifgfxeshmxqbf)
  868. # [20:57] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.3.24)
  869. # [20:59] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.3.24) (Remote host closed the connection)
  870. # [20:59] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:149:4:401:fc90:6324:3c13:29db)
  871. # [21:11] * Joins: estes (~estes@2620:149:4:401:d69a:20ff:fed0:8cd2)
  872. # [21:12] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: If you can reference something, you can assign to it without throwing.
  873. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, what does "reference" mean?
  874. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> 1 = 0 throws, right?
  875. # [21:13] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: 1 isn't a reference
  876. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> What's a reference, then?
  877. # [21:13] * AryehGregor has to read ES someday
  878. # [21:15] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: A reference is a resolved binding of some type, roughly
  879. # [21:18] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-ozjiydjxihoxxndu) (Quit: jamesr)
  880. # [21:19] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@nishino.lvp-media.com)
  881. # [21:23] * Joins: Obvious_MkII (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  882. # [21:24] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  883. # [21:27] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@dsl081-070-203.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  884. # [21:32] * jernoble is now known as jer|afk
  885. # [21:34] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  886. # [21:35] * jer|afk is now known as jernoble
  887. # [21:37] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.203.12.89) (Quit: jernoble)
  888. # [21:38] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-pgldtdlxhpyqmtwe)
  889. # [21:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: my rule of thumb is "would including this in new pages waste people's time"
  890. # [21:46] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.243.14)
  891. # [21:48] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
  892. # [21:48] * Quits: zdobersek1 (~zan@90.157.241.119) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  893. # [21:53] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  894. # [21:55] * Joins: jer|afk (~jernoble@2620:149:4:401:553d:5bff:67cf:daa0)
  895. # [21:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: "no" in the yandex case
  896. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> Whose time? :)
  897. # [21:57] * jer|afk is now known as jernoble
  898. # [21:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: then the conformance checker should ok it
  899. # [21:58] <Philip`> I thought all these verification meta things were only meant to be added to your page for a few minutes until the search engine has successfully verified it and then they can be removed, but everyone seems to leave them there forever
  900. # [21:58] <Hixie> hsivonen: how we justify that is somewhat academic, whether we use some process to argue for it or whether we just say "yup, this one isn't following the process but oh well!" is not particularly important
  901. # [22:09] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-46-14.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  902. # [22:09] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.53) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  903. # [22:12] * Quits: mokush_ (~quassel@188.24.41.206) (Remote host closed the connection)
  904. # [22:17] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.243.14) (Quit: Leaving.)
  905. # [22:18] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@d54C02C64.access.telenet.be) (Quit: Martijnc)
  906. # [22:19] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.21.163) (Quit: nn)
  907. # [22:20] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@dsl081-070-203.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Quit: Snuggling with the puppies)
  908. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Okay, so it turns out nbsp's are a total, complete mess.
  909. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Because they conflate non-collapsing with non-breaking.
  910. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> We really only want non-collapsing for the contenteditable case.
  911. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> But we get non-breaking too, which has all sorts of nasty side-effects.
  912. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  913. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> Blame early browsers.
  914. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> (For adding the non-collapsing functionality to them.)
  915. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> Observed behavior in OO.org and Word: typing "foo" then lots of spaces then "bar" always ends up with "foo" at the start of a visible line and then "bar" at the start of the next visible line.
  916. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> WebKit behaves that way for contenteditable, because it magically treats nbsp as breakable but non-collapsing.
  917. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> But then it will break as soon as you make it non-contenteditable, of course.
  918. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> Gecko, Opera, and IE all behave in a totally different and much weirder way.
  919. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> (from the user perspective)
  920. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> As does WebKit once you remove contenteditable.
  921. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Shorter: editing is still totally fucked up.
  922. # [22:27] <zewt> even gmail's editor is obnoxiously broken, and most homebrew ones are just unusable
  923. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> Unicode doesn't even have a space character that has the desired semantics.
  924. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> Well, because collapsing is an HTML thing, I guess.
  925. # [22:30] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@178.74.10.250) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  926. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> I notice that setting white-space: pre-wrap on the contenteditable region achieves the desired effect in all browsers, more or less.
  927. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  928. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> So here's a fun thing: if you type a word and it's just long enough to reach the right edge of where you're typing, then you hit space, that inserts an nbsp, so it should actually move the word to the next line. Then it should jump back as soon as you type the next letter, which converts it to a regular space.
  929. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> This actually happens in Opera, but evidently all other browsers cheat somehow, because it doesn't happen for them.
  930. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Even though if you add an actual &nbsp; to the source, it does happen in IE and Gecko (but WebKit cheats more outrageously, so it doesn't).
  931. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> SIGH.
  932. # [22:40] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  933. # [22:40] * Quits: LBP (~Miranda@pD9EB1822.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
  934. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> You know, I'm strongly tempted to tell UAs to add [contenteditable] { white-space: pre-wrap } to their UA stylesheets and then drop all this nbsp nonsense.
  935. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> It would make things so much simpler.
  936. # [22:45] * AryehGregor writes a mail
  937. # [22:51] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@178.74.10.250)
  938. # [22:54] * Quits: pdr2 (~pdr2@nat/google/x-wybiuijozicefzrr) (Remote host closed the connection)
  939. # [23:02] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@178.74.10.250) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  940. # [23:03] * Quits: estes (~estes@2620:149:4:401:d69a:20ff:fed0:8cd2) (Quit: estes)
  941. # [23:07] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  942. # [23:09] * Joins: othermaciej_ (~mjs@17.203.15.180)
  943. # [23:11] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  944. # [23:11] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:149:4:401:fc90:6324:3c13:29db) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  945. # [23:11] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  946. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> Sent.
  947. # [23:16] * Quits: jonatasnona (~jonatas@lba.inpa.gov.br) (Quit: Saindo)
  948. # [23:17] <mpilgrim> heycam|away: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63011 aligns WebKit with WebIDL to throw TypeError instead of SyntaxError on not enough arguments
  949. # [23:18] <mpilgrim> heycam|away: after that lands, i can start fixing IndexedDB, and the new strictness will no longer be theoretical!
  950. # [23:20] * Parts: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  951. # [23:22] * Quits: msucan (~robod@109.96.217.163) (Quit: .)
  952. # [23:22] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  953. # [23:28] <jamesr> ncsp?
  954. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> ?
  955. # [23:29] * Quits: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  956. # [23:29] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  957. # [23:30] <heycam> mpilgrim, awesome!
  958. # [23:33] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.203.15.180) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  959. # [23:33] <jamesr> AryehGregor: non-collapsing space
  960. # [23:33] <jamesr> to go with non-breaking space
  961. # [23:34] <AryehGregor> Which maps to what Unicode character, given that Unicode doesn't know about whitespace collapsing?
  962. # [23:34] <jamesr> 7!
  963. # [23:34] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.203.15.180)
  964. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> If authors were allowed to insert U+0007 into pages and have it work, I think users would be unhappy.
  965. # [23:37] <jamesr> i don't have any serious suggestions, but it seems that if unicode can have a pile of poo character it can have just about anything
  966. # [23:39] <jamesr> is U+0007 bell?
  967. # [23:40] <jamesr> <blink>U+0007</blink>
  968. # [23:42] <zewt> jamesr: heh, well more seriously, adding new characters with special rendering semantics is a whole different beast than adding a dumb poop glyph
  969. # [23:42] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y227145.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  970. # [23:47] * Joins: _richardJ (~richard@node.liefcoden.nl)
  971. # [23:48] * Joins: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  972. # [23:50] * Joins: antti_s2_ (~antti@173-203-97-98.static.cloud-ips.com)
  973. # [23:52] * Quits: The_8472 (~stardive@azureus/The8472) (Disconnected by services)
  974. # [23:52] * Joins: The_8472 (~stardive@azureus/The8472)
  975. # [23:53] * Joins: clair_ (~clair@host86-163-151-50.range86-163.btcentralplus.com)
  976. # [23:53] * Joins: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  977. # [23:54] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
  978. # [23:54] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (*.net *.split)
  979. # [23:54] * Quits: clair (~clair@host86-163-151-50.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) (*.net *.split)
  980. # [23:54] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (*.net *.split)
  981. # [23:54] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-5ed9e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (*.net *.split)
  982. # [23:54] * Quits: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au) (*.net *.split)
  983. # [23:54] * Quits: RichardJ (~richard@node.liefcoden.nl) (*.net *.split)
  984. # [23:54] * Quits: Morphous_ (jan@g228225091.adsl.alicedsl.de) (*.net *.split)
  985. # [23:54] * Quits: antti_s2 (~antti@173-203-97-98.static.cloud-ips.com) (*.net *.split)
  986. # [23:54] * Quits: Workshiva (~Dashiva@74.125.121.65) (*.net *.split)
  987. # [23:54] * Quits: beowulf (u116@pdpc/supporter/professional/beowulf) (*.net *.split)
  988. # [23:54] * clair_ is now known as clair
  989. # [23:54] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-5ed9e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  990. # [23:55] <annevk> "We still believe that most sighted keyboard only users can't or don't
  991. # [23:55] <annevk> know how to activate @longdesc but here it's where new Authoring Tools
  992. # [23:55] <annevk> and User Agents Accessibility Guidelines should help filling the gap. "
  993. # [23:55] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  994. # [23:55] <annevk> oh please tools, save us now!
  995. # [23:55] <Dashiva> Just wait, longdesc will be the best legacy feature ever after a few more years of development
  996. # [23:56] <annevk> I think it's the only attribute with its own twitter account, that alone should be enough, no?
  997. # [23:57] <Dashiva> That's super accessible
  998. # [23:58] <Dashiva> You can access it both in your browser and with your mobile device
  999. # [23:58] <zewt> there's some irony in something called "longdesc" having its own account on a service notoriously incapable of describing anything long
  1000. # Session Close: Tue Jun 21 00:00:00 2011

The end :)