/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-22 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jun 22 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:11] <AryehGregor> Per spec, is <li></li> supposed to have zero height or not?
# [00:11] <AryehGregor> Seems yes in Gecko and WebKit, no in Opera.
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> Does the list marker prop it open or something?
# [00:13] <AryehGregor> Hmm, or is list-style-position: outside just undefined?
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# [00:15] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, you know that http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/ has conflict markers in it?
# [00:15] <AryehGregor> (also, the TR/ version doesn't link to it)
# [00:15] <AryehGregor> "Issue: Inline markers have some special behavior wrt white-space collapsing at the beginning of the list-item. Is this behavior necessary for web-compat, or can I just spec it away? (Since I have outside markers basically be abspos, it doesn't apply to them.)"
# [00:15] <AryehGregor> That seems possibly relevant.
# [00:16] <Hixie> AryehGregor: list markers cause there to be a line box
# [00:16] <AryehGregor> Hmm, okay.
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# [00:24] <Hixie> heycam: is there something i can subscribe to to get e-mail notifications of WebIDL changes?
# [00:25] <heycam> Hixie, um... I know that the cvs commit messages go to member-cvs-editors
# [00:25] <heycam> you could probably subscribe to that
# [00:25] * Hixie investigates
# [00:25] <heycam> but I think that gets notifications of cvs commits to anything under dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/
# [00:25] <heycam> member-cvs-editors is not the right name
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# [00:26] <heycam> member-webapi-cvs
# [00:26] <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-webapi-cvs/2011Jun/
# [00:26] <Hixie> one day i won't work on browsers anymore and i'll be able to use browsers that work, right?
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# [00:26] <heycam> when browsers work, then you will get to retire, yes
# [00:27] <jamesr> where are you gonna find a browser that works?
# [00:27] <Hixie> hm, that gets all my bugmail spam too
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# [00:27] <Hixie> ah well, let's try subscribing anyway and see what happens with my existing filters
# [00:27] <Hixie> thanks heycam
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# [00:28] <Hixie> ok for now i'll just settle for a browser with PDF view with working search
# [00:28] <Hixie> or, you know, the JS folks could start publishing specs in a sane format like HTML
# [00:29] <heycam> Hixie, use http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es5.html, it's much nicer
# [00:30] <Hixie> dude!
# [00:30] <Hixie> that's fantastic!
# [00:30] * Hixie updates his links
# [00:30] <heycam> yeah looks pretty doesn't it
# [00:30] <Hixie> you had me at ".html"
# [00:30] <heycam> lol
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# [00:31] <Hixie> aw man, cross-references and everything
# [00:31] <Hixie> this is awesome!
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# [00:31] <paul_irish> a similarish one... http://es5.github.com/ i think mikesmith did it
# [00:32] <Hixie> interesting, so arguments that take unsigned long do modulo 2**32 on their value first
# [00:32] <Hixie> huh
# [00:32] <heycam> that green smiling planet creeps me out
# [00:32] <paul_irish> ditto
# [00:33] <Hixie> heycam: step 5 (Compute x modulo 2^64.) of "4.2.11. unsigned long long" in Web IDL seems redundant
# [00:33] * heycam looks
# [00:35] <heycam> what if the Number value you are converting from is larger than 2^64
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# [00:36] <Hixie> well you don't use the result of the modulo
# [00:36] <Hixie> so either that step is wrong or the next step is wrong
# [00:36] <heycam> oh, yes
# [00:37] <heycam> I must have missed that one when converting the algorithms away from using the Result(<stepnumber>) convention
# [00:37] <heycam> thanks
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# [00:38] <Hixie> np
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# [01:00] <Hixie> i wonder why the industry uses both 'raise' and 'throw' for exceptions
# [01:01] <Hixie> (i really should pick one and drop the other in the spec)
# [01:01] <heycam> throw : catch :: raise : ?
# [01:02] <Hixie> as syntax?
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# [01:02] <Hixie> i just meant as english terms
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# [01:03] <Hixie> languages i've seen that use 'raise' as a keyword use 'except on' to catch the exceptions
# [01:03] <Hixie> e.g. try ... except on EFooException do ... end;
# [01:03] <erlehmann> python has raise
# [01:03] <Hixie> how does python catch?
# [01:04] <gsnedders> There's a world outside of JS!?
# [01:04] <erlehmann> try:
# [01:04] <erlehmann> …
# [01:04] <erlehmann> except:
# [01:04] <erlehmann> except OsError:
# [01:04] <erlehmann> except OsError as e:
# [01:04] <erlehmann> something like that
# [01:04] <Hixie> so same idea as what i've seen
# [01:04] <Hixie> cool
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# [01:04] <Hixie> i wonder why we have these two sets of terminology
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# [01:04] <erlehmann> my shell is ipython, it is nice and clean :>
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# [01:05] <smaug____> raise sounds like old terminology, and throw something from object oriented languages
# [01:06] <smaug____> just a guess
# [01:06] <Hixie> both languages that were cited above are oop languages
# [01:06] <smaug____> sure
# [01:07] <Hixie> also oop is pretty old :-)
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# [01:07] <Hixie> i wouldn't be surprised if oop predated exceptions in fact
# [01:08] <smaug____> it is, but I was just wondering about the origin of the terminology
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# [01:09] <smaug____> you throw an exception object, but raise an error (which may be also an object nowadays).
# [01:09] <smaug____> anyway, just guessing
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# [01:59] <Hixie> hmm
# [01:59] <Hixie> if we do make HTMLMediaElement audioTracks and videoTracks into arrays of Tracks, it makes it hard for us to use the same API for Streams
# [02:00] <Hixie> because we wouldn't want a Stream constructor that takes an array of Tracks to be able to be given an array of Tracks from a <video>
# [02:00] <Hixie> only those from a Stream
# [02:00] <Hixie> hmmmm
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# [02:33] <nessy> ups, sorry Hixie! wasn't aware that's how you used the severity flag
# [02:33] <Hixie> np
# [02:35] <nessy> glad you're looking at it right now
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# [02:36] <nessy> it's also got to do with the text track list, because they currently come as an array and not as another object
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# [02:38] <nessy> Hixie, could TextTrack also inherit from AbstractTrack ?
# [02:38] <ide> is this channel appropriate for spec-related questions? I'm wondering about the content types of resources served from the offline application cache
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# [02:39] <mpilgrim> heycam: ping
# [02:40] <heycam> mpilgrim, hi
# [02:41] <mpilgrim> i have more stupid webidl questions
# [02:41] <heycam> ask away
# [02:41] <mpilgrim> i've finished migrating webkit's indexeddb implementation to strict required-argument checking
# [02:41] <mpilgrim> it throws TypeError now
# [02:41] <heycam> cool
# [02:42] <mpilgrim> but its null handing is still fubar
# [02:42] <mpilgrim> to clarify: what should indexedDB.open(null) do?
# [02:43] <heycam> Ms2ger was right, it should be the same as indexedDB.open("null")
# [02:44] <mpilgrim> sigh
# [02:44] <heycam> we just had this bug about it: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12798
# [02:47] <mpilgrim> ok, it's not a difficult fix
# [02:47] <Hixie> nessy: why would we do that?
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# [02:58] <nessy> Hixie: depends on what attributes are in the AbstractTrack - I don't know what you're envisaging there
# [03:01] <nessy> Hixie: are you planning to remove the TrackList object for media tracks and replace it with arrays then or is your design only for streams?
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# [03:06] <roc> what's the difference between a "buffered" track and a "streaming" track?
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# [03:15] <othermaciej> URL to a file vs something like HTTP live streaming where you get chunks and there's no such thing as the whole file?
# [03:15] <roc> not in this context
# [03:16] <roc> I'll wait for someone to explain it in the bug :-)
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# [03:25] <nessy> yeah, I am curious about that, too - as much as possible I would like to see the live streaming video data handled the same way as the file-based video data
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# [05:14] <Hixie> roc: the difference is between something where all you have is the data at this very second, and something where you can at least in theory seek to a different time
# [05:15] <roc> so
# [05:15] <roc> in my theory of everything, Streams are not seekable
# [05:15] <Hixie> right
# [05:15] <roc> and neither are tracks
# [05:15] <Hixie> what do you mean by "tracks"?
# [05:15] <roc> I'm not sure :-)
# [05:16] <roc> what does seekability have to do with your tracks, though?
# [05:16] <Hixie> here's the background:
# [05:17] <Hixie> there are two APIs that currently happen to be the same API: HTMLMediaElement.videoTracks, and MediaStream.videoTracks
# [05:17] <Hixie> HTMLMediaElement.videoTracks has as purpose the following:
# [05:17] <Hixie> - expose what video streams are in the media resource
# [05:17] <Hixie> - allow the author to introspect them
# [05:17] <Hixie> - allow the author to switch between them
# [05:18] <Hixie> MediaStream.videoTracks is currently misdesigned but in principle its purpose is to allow authors to turn off individual tracks before sending them to a peer
# [05:18] <Hixie> to implement e.g. video mute
# [05:18] <Hixie> (everything i'm saying here has a parallel with audioTracks, but for simplicity i'm just going to talk about videoTracks here)
# [05:19] <Hixie> now the problem with the API that is used for both of the above is that it's awkward to use
# [05:19] <Hixie> instead of saying media.videoTracks[0].kind you say media.videoTracks.getKind(0);
# [05:19] <Hixie> it's less intuitive
# [05:20] <Hixie> (getKind() et all is also slightly nicer from my standpoint because there's no extra object to worry about, so no lifetime issue, no edge cases to define like "what if you keep a reference to a track and ask for its kind after the video has changed number of tracks"
# [05:20] <Hixie> or "what happens if the first track changes kind mid-way through the stream and you ask for its kind using a reference you picked up earlier")
# [05:21] <Hixie> now i'm trying to fix two problems:
# [05:21] <Hixie> 1. changing to the intuitive API for HTMLMediaElement.videoTracks, by having it return a Track object of some kind
# [05:21] <Hixie> and defining all those edgecases somehow
# [05:22] <Hixie> 2. making the "video mute" feature actually work
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# [05:22] <Hixie> to do 2, my current plan is to have a way to create a new MediaStream from an existing one, so you can manipulate the outputs on the second one without affecting the first one
# [05:23] <Hixie> so you can getUserMedia() a (Generated)MediaStream, and plug that in (via getObjectURL) to <video>
# [05:23] <Hixie> call that one userStream
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# [05:23] <Hixie> and you can also call new MediaStream(userStream) which returns a new MediaStream, call it secondStream
# [05:23] <Hixie> on which you can disable the video without affecting the <video>
# [05:24] <Hixie> and you would send secondStream to PeerConnection
# [05:24] <Hixie> ok i'm shutting up now
# [05:24] <Hixie> oh wait i never talked about seekabality
# [05:24] <Hixie> so anyway, the concern was that at one point instead of new MediaStream(aStream) I was thinking of allowing new MediaStream([array, of, tracks])
# [05:25] <Hixie> and you wouldn't want to be able to take Track objects from the HTMLMediaElement.videoTracks list
# [05:25] <Hixie> because those have nothing to do with the kinds of tracks in a MediaStream
# [05:25] <Hixie> I mean, they're similar, but they're not compatible concepts
# [05:25] <Hixie> but that's academic at this point since I don't think we need to allow that necessarily
# [05:25] <Hixie> ok now i'm really done
# [05:26] <roc> I see
# [05:26] <roc> I agree building a Stream out of Tracks sounds dangerous
# [05:27] <roc> what if you build a Stream out of Tracks, start playing it somewhere, and then change the media resource in the HTMLMediaElement you got the Tracks from?
# [05:28] <roc> the resource loader that loaded the Tracks will have gone away
# [05:28] <roc> you could define the Tracks to end or something, but it's not great
# [05:29] <roc> The approach where you create a MediaStream that takes another stream as input and selects different tracks fits nicely with my work
# [05:31] <Hixie> building a stream out of tracks from a <video> element just doesn't make sense to me
# [05:31] <Hixie> i mean, what would the stream be?
# [05:31] <Hixie> what's currently playing?
# [05:31] <Hixie> that seems... bogus
# [05:32] <Hixie> anyway, yeah, i think we're on the same page
# [05:32] <Hixie> i need to figure out what it means if you create a MediaStream from a MediaStream that has disabled tracks
# [05:32] <Hixie> do they come along as well but disabled?
# [05:33] <Hixie> if so, it's kinda weird, because it means getting a url out of a MediaStream, or putting one in a PeerConnection, gets you something different than what you get if create a new MediaStream from one
# [05:33] <Hixie> but if you don't, then you can never have more than one videoTrack per MediaStream constructed in this way
# [05:33] <Hixie> so...
# [05:33] <Hixie> not sure where to go with this exactly
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# [05:59] <roc> Maybe you want track enabling/disabling and track "pruning" to be separate features
# [06:00] <roc> I can see use-cases for sending tracks over PeerConnection that are disabled by default
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# [06:03] <karlcow> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=150010
# [06:03] <karlcow> C3: An Experimental, Extensible, Reconfigurable Platform for HTML-based Applications
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# [06:40] <Hixie> roc: we definitely don't want it to be possible for someone to accidentally send tracks they didn't intend to send, so track pruning is my priority
# [06:52] <roc> well then, maybe PeerConnection by default should not send disabled tracks, and later add the ability to opt-in to that
# [06:52] <Hixie> yeah
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# [07:09] <zewt> apparently to browser vendors "faster release schedules" just means "we no longer understand version numbering", heh
# [07:10] <zewt> i mean, firefox 5? really?
# [07:14] <Hixie> what's wrong with firefox 5?
# [07:14] <zewt> it's a minor release of firefox 4, heh
# [07:15] <roc> version numbers are stupid for anything other than calculating "this is newer than that"
# [07:15] <Hixie> hear hear
# [07:15] <zewt> major version numbers should indicate major releases; this is definitely not a major release
# [07:16] <roc> what difference does it make to anyone whether it's a "major" or "minor" release (if you can even get people to agree on what those mean)?
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# [07:17] <zewt> if people see "firefox 5", jump to upgrade because it looks like a major release, and then they quite literally can't tell the difference, then I wouldn't expect them to even bother when 6 comes around
# [07:17] <Hixie> if you have a schedule like chrome's, which i believe is what firefox is now doing (right?), there's no such thing as a major release
# [07:17] <roc> zewt: then they're fools, because every release has significant security improvements
# [07:18] <roc> of course a lot of people are fools, so we'll auto-update them
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# [07:18] <zewt> not if it's competently maintained; older releases must have security updates for a reasonable amount of time
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# [07:19] <roc> we never get to backport all our security improvements, since some of them are too risky
# [07:20] <roc> obviously things are different for known-in-the-wild security issuses
# [07:21] <roc> anyway, the mentality of only updating when there are major UI changes is silly
# [07:21] <zewt> firefox's history makes me very careful about upgrading, heh
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# [07:22] <zewt> which is alleviated with the updates being more frequent, of course, but still
# [07:22] <roc> I don't believe that people are going to think "a minor update that doesn't change the UI is OK, I"ll update, but a major update that doesn't change the UI must have something wrong with it so I won't update"
# [07:24] <nessy> people will run whatever latest version you give them
# [07:25] <Hixie> tell the IE6 users that ;-)
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# [07:30] <nessy> they are not normal people - they are corporates ;)
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# [08:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: are you awere of compat issues preventing a spec change to make the task that fires DOMContentLoaded set readyState to "interactive"
# [08:42] <hsivonen> *aware
# [08:42] <Hixie> not off-hand
# [08:42] <Hixie> what do browsers do today?
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# [08:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: Gecko does what the spec says
# [08:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: I haven't tested others
# [08:47] <hsivonen> I suppose I should
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# [09:39] <hsivonen> I guess I now need an EDITORIAL ASSISTANT'S RESPONSE boilerplate
# [09:39] <hsivonen> should the "reconsider" bit say "editor" or "editorial assistant"?
# [09:40] <hsivonen> I suppose Editor
# [09:40] <hsivonen> does http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1255208 look ok?
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# [09:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: looks OK to me
# [09:47] <MikeSmith> and I for one think it's great that we can now use the phrase “editorial assistants” as a synonym for the cabal
# [09:48] <Hixie> aren't you just supposed to use the same boilerplate i use?
# [09:49] <Hixie> not that i care one way or the other
# [09:49] <Ms2ger> Enjoy the extra work, all :)
# [09:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you have "If you have additional information and would like the Editor reconsider, please..." in there
# [09:49] <MikeSmith> don't know if original has that too
# [09:50] <Hixie> wait how did ms2ger get away with not being one of these assistant thingies
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# [09:52] <MikeSmith> but seems like it should instead rather be either "information you would like the Editor reconsider" or "and would like the Editor reconsider it"
# [09:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I copied what I saw Hixie use
# [09:52] <Ms2ger> We clearly lack a Process to define the boilerplate
# [09:52] <MikeSmith> process is: monkey see, monkey do :)
# [09:53] <MikeSmith> just kidding
# [09:53] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: Indeed. I was bold enough to use a boilerplate without a Process: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12950#c6
# [09:54] <MikeSmith> way to set an example
# [09:54] <MikeSmith> good precedent
# [09:54] <MikeSmith> let's have more of that
# [09:54] <Ms2ger> Good, that was a bug in need of wontfixing :)
# [09:55] <Hixie> you know, you could be wontfixing bugs too!
# [09:55] * Hixie dangles a wontfix hammer in front of ms2ger
# [09:56] * Ms2ger wontfixes the bug to become an EA
# [09:56] <MikeSmith> a while back, I think I remember somebody saying we should add a resolution status of ONLYONEPERSONINTHEENTIREUNIVERSECARESABOUTTHIS
# [09:56] * Ms2ger hands it back
# [09:56] <MikeSmith> I don't remember who said that
# [09:56] <Ms2ger> Let's make it two, we don't want to exclude Julian
# [09:56] <MikeSmith> but I'm just (re)noting it here for the record
# [09:57] <Ms2ger> OTOH, Hixie would probably use it for all my bugs
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# [09:58] <MikeSmith> I think somebody else suggested "YAGNI"
# [09:58] <MikeSmith> which whatever that is, I don't even know
# [10:03] <hsivonen> dear lazy IRC, why is the gedit command-line command opening new gedit instances for me now? It used to open new tabs in an existing gedit process
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# [10:08] <hsivonen> hmm. how is the pageshow event supposed to work with the initial about:blank?
# [10:08] <Hixie> an excellent question
# [10:08] <Hixie> iirc the spec doesn't fire it
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# [10:08] <hsivonen> it appears I broke a whole bunch of chrome mochitests
# [10:09] <hsivonen> but I don't know yet if my patch is bogus or if the tests are bogus
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# [10:14] <Ms2ger> Or both
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# [10:22] <hsivonen> anyway, about:blank now passes reftest, crashtest, mochitest-a11y and mochitest-plain (with a leak)
# [10:22] <hsivonen> mochitest-chrome and mochitest-browser-chrome to go
# [10:23] <hsivonen> looks like pageshow is a major issue
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# [10:37] <hsivonen> page loading is always even harder than it seems :-(
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# [10:46] <annevk> http://mobile.twitter.com/diveintomark/status/81701979130314752 is funny, wish I'd seen that one when it came along
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# [10:47] <zcorpan> Hixie: isn't it more useful to use labels instead of severity (and other fields) for categorization of bugs?
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# [10:48] <zcorpan> Hixie: like 'parsing', 'media', etc
# [10:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: I guess no W3C team member would be allowed to officially condone that tweet
# [10:49] <zcorpan> people will continue to change severity and not realize that 'critical' means 'parsing'
# [10:49] <annevk> MikeSmith, I guess you only talk about your crazy uncle behind his back?
# [10:50] <MikeSmith> I don't have any crazy uncle
# [10:50] <MikeSmith> in my family, I am the crazy uncle
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# [10:51] <MikeSmith> so if the TAG is a crazy uncle, then, hey, I've found something I have in common with the TAG
# [10:51] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, not just in your family
# [10:51] <MikeSmith> heh
# [10:52] <MikeSmith> now, btw, that I would ever myself describe the TAG as a crazy uncle
# [10:52] <MikeSmith> one of you Editorial Assistants please make sure that gets noted in the record
# [10:52] <zcorpan> wait, is MikeSmith == TAG?
# [10:53] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hey, wait, you been reading more of my proposals for process improvements?
# [10:53] <MikeSmith> I thought I had those set to Member-only
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# [10:54] <zcorpan> i can read Member stuff you know
# [10:54] <MikeSmith> well, quit doing that
# [10:55] <hsivonen> XUL makes about:blank even harder
# [10:55] <annevk> what is the deal with the normative language spec?
# [10:55] <annevk> is the TAG hoping for consumers of HTML to arise that are incompatible with other implementations?
# [10:57] * MikeSmith moves his proposals into secret Super Member space
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# [10:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I was going to try to say something clever about XUL, but I'll bite my tongue instead
# [10:58] <zcorpan> wait editorial assistants also need boilerplate? boo
# [11:00] * zcorpan wonders where to save the boilerplate for future copy-paste
# [11:00] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, Team space?
# [11:01] <hsivonen> boo. OMG! Ubuntu uses Disqus for comments
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# [11:02] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: hmm, how would that work in combination with the existing secret Super Team space?
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> hey wait, I don't seem to have read access to secret Super Team space documents any more. Has to be some kind of bug
# [11:03] <Ms2ger> Oh no, I changed that
# [11:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: where does it say that editorial assistants are to use the boilerplate?
# [11:04] <Ms2ger> You hang around with the WHATWG too much
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# [11:08] <annevk> Ms2ger, for contentType and the various charset attributes I thought we could just give Document 4 additional internal variables
# [11:09] <annevk> Ms2ger, we set them to the correct values for createDocument and createHTMLDocument calls, Hixie handles the rest
# [11:09] <Ms2ger> WFM
# [11:11] * Ms2ger adds some warnings for Attr nodes
# [11:15] <annevk> bug #?
# [11:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: It doesn't say that anywhere, but it seems obvious
# [11:16] <annevk> yeah, we do the same as the editor
# [11:16] <Ms2ger> 661327
# [11:19] <annevk> nice
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# [11:49] <annevk> Hmm, I wonder if a test suite for progress events makes sense
# [11:49] <annevk> Maybe for the interface...
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# [11:53] <annevk> I am going to rename custom request headers in CORS to author request headers
# [11:56] <annevk> Does not seem to affect HTML; good
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# [12:03] <hsivonen> soo... don't pageshow and friends not propagade from iframe's window object to the iframe element?
# [12:03] <jgraham> How would a >TS for progress events not make sense?
# [12:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: why would they?
# [12:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: load does
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# [12:05] <hsivonen> when does the outer window of an iframe come to existence?
# [12:05] <annevk> jgraham, apart from the interface, how would you test them?
# [12:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: so?
# [12:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: logic
# [12:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: use case?
# [12:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: understanding when they fire :-)
# [12:06] <jgraham> annevk: I haven't looked at the spec in detail but I assume there are some requirements. Or can one "implment" it by implementing the interface and then never dispatching any events?
# [12:06] <annevk> jgraham, other specs make the requirements
# [12:06] <annevk> like XHR
# [12:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: WONTFIX :P
# [12:06] <annevk> the only normative bit is the interface and its attributes, but what they return is set in other specs
# [12:07] <annevk> I guess I should email webapps
# [12:07] <jgraham> annevk: Well I guess that's what you can test then
# [12:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Is there any way to add an event listener for pageshow to an iframe's window object before inserting the iframe into the document?
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# [12:08] <hsivonen> does .contentWindow always, by definition, emerge only upon the insertion?
# [12:09] <zliu> Is PeerConnection 's audio/video content encrypted?
# [12:10] <hsivonen> I guess the dual nature of browsing contexts in XUL and in the Web platform is the source of my troubles today
# [12:10] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is the iframe's document about:blank?
# [12:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah, but the document emerges only upon the creation of the browsing context, too
# [12:12] <zcorpan> is pageshow fired sync or is it queued?
# [12:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oh. good point
# [12:13] <zcorpan> "If the Document is in a browsing context, then queue a task to fire a pageshow "
# [12:13] <annevk> zliu, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#security-considerations
# [12:15] <zcorpan> though maybe about:blank pages don't run the "the end" parsing steps?
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# [12:16] <hsivonen> I guess my problem today is annoying code sharing between the Web and XUL
# [12:16] <hsivonen> and that code is a "here be dragons" area
# [12:17] <hsivonen> so earlier I papered over it
# [12:17] <hsivonen> but apparently not well enough!
# [12:17] <zewt-> better cardboard over it next time
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# [12:19] <zliu> So PeerConnection's audio/video content is "data UDP media streams"? I had thought not.
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# [12:56] <jgraham> // It is defined here because jslint complains if it is declared
# [12:56] <jgraham> // at the end of the function (which would be more logical and readable)
# [12:57] <annevk> zliu, oh
# [12:57] <annevk> hmm
# [12:57] * annevk didn't look int detail
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# [13:28] <annevk> is it "one or more is" or "one or more are"
# [13:29] <annevk> "are" right?
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# [13:32] <annevk> oh, just read that CDATASection bug in Gecko
# [13:32] <annevk> some people are not amused
# [13:32] <Ms2ger> Speaking of which, I need to write some new patches
# [13:34] <annevk> so is Gecko releasing every six weeks now?
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# [13:38] <zcorpan> firefox, yes
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# [13:46] <remy> Any folks around to answer an appcache question?
# [13:47] <zcorpan> remy: don't ask to ask
# [13:47] <remy> zcorpan: you'd think, right? I've asked in the past, but all I got was tumbleweed
# [13:47] <remy> appcache - FALLBACK - I can't work out from the spec - should it support "star rules", ie. *.html offline.html ?
# [13:48] <remy> because Firefox does support it, and Chrome and Opera don't
# [13:48] <remy> yet, NETWORK uses that syntax
# [13:48] <remy> bottom line - I can't work out from the spec what's correct - so a little help :)
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# [13:49] <annevk> remy, no
# [13:49] <annevk> remy, bug in Firefox
# [13:50] <remy> don't you think that it should be a feature of the appcache, i.e. firefox's "bug" should be in Chrome, et al?
# [13:50] <smaug____> bug in Firefox or in the spec ;)
# [13:51] <annevk> remy, if we want to make the spec more complex
# [13:52] <annevk> remy, currently the first URL is resolved and is then prefix matched
# [13:52] <annevk> remy, no regexp-like magic
# [13:52] <remy> yet the NETWORK category *does* use regexp-like magic
# [13:52] <annevk> no
# [13:53] <remy> well - it does in the browsers
# [13:53] <remy> I've got a site with a rule for /remote/* under network, and all browsers respect that rule
# [13:53] <annevk> it can only be a single *
# [13:54] <remy> I don't follow - are you saying that my /remote/* rule is fine?
# [13:54] <annevk> sure, it's valid
# [13:54] <annevk> but it doesn't do what you think it does
# [13:54] <remy> but *.html isn't
# [13:54] <remy> ah
# [13:54] <annevk> *.html is also valid
# [13:54] <annevk> also doesn't do what you think it does
# [13:54] <remy> not for FALLBACK
# [13:54] <remy> okay
# [13:54] <zcorpan> if you have a file called "*.html"
# [13:54] <remy> so I've got the wrong end of the stick - can you put me on the right path?
# [13:55] <remy> zcorpan: sure - that'll work
# [13:55] <zcorpan> i mean it'd match that file
# [13:55] <zcorpan> not foo.html
# [13:55] <remy> yeah, and I'm saying that it *should* match foo.html and I think it's a bug in the spec
# [13:55] <remy> I know Firefox has gone and implemented this already
# [13:56] <remy> and I know that the network rules work the same way (though annevk is going to explain why it really works)
# [13:56] <annevk> well, maybe Firefox has some magic I don't know about
# [13:57] <remy> Okay, let's ignore Firefox for a minute
# [13:57] <annevk> but I'm pretty sure we never implemented anything like that
# [13:57] <remy> well - it works, happy to upload a demo of it if you're unsure
# [13:57] <remy> can I rewind for a min - the NETWORK rules
# [13:57] <remy> I've got: /remote/* under network
# [13:58] <remy> and requests to /remote/[anything here] are never cached
# [13:58] <remy> suggesting there's a regex going on when the url is requested, it's matched to the rule, and therefore is under the whitelist
# [13:58] <remy> is that a correct understanding of it?
# [13:59] <annevk> do you also use *?
# [13:59] <annevk> stuff not in the manifest is not cached by default
# [13:59] <remy> stuff not in the manifest is never requested - regardless
# [13:59] <remy> every browser currently has that bug
# [13:59] <annevk> no that's a feature
# [13:59] <annevk> well, per spec
# [13:59] <remy> a feature?
# [13:59] <remy> damn.
# [14:00] <annevk> you should read the spec :)
# [14:00] <remy> I have, several times and if I still can't get it right, I'm pretty sure there's many others that aren't.
# [14:00] <remy> I'm now asking about three different things - but for the sake of getting it right -
# [14:00] <annevk> i agree it's pretty tough
# [14:01] <remy> can you point me to where in the spec, it says: if the manifest is used, any asset not mentioned by the manifest is never requested by the browser
# [14:01] <remy> (i.e. resulting in broken images, etc)
# [14:02] <annevk> sure
# [14:02] <remy> (I'm not asking to be a dick, I really do want that info - because it's tripping folks up, and I want to put them on the right path)
# [14:02] * annevk looks
# [14:02] <remy> annevk: ta
# [14:03] <annevk> I realize it's useful if you know :)
# [14:03] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/offline.html#changesToNetworkingModel
# [14:03] <annevk> the key here is step 5
# [14:04] <annevk> if there's no wildcard set (by using a single * in NETWORK) resource loads fail
# [14:04] <annevk> this is primarily done to improve debugging if I remember correctly
# [14:04] <remy> well - the note is the key thing in there for me!
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# [14:05] <annevk> oh yeah, the note is pretty clear too :)
# [14:05] <annevk> I typically ignore the non-normative stuff :)
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# [14:05] <remy> by "blocking" or "open" - does "blocking" usually come about by not including anything in the network namespace?
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# [14:07] <annevk> remy, yes, that is the default
# [14:07] <remy> okay. good - cheers.
# [14:07] <remy> if you've still got a minute, I'd like to get this star rule stuff straight
# [14:09] * smaug____ can't immediately see any bug in Fx's appcache parsing. But he isn't familiar with that code.
# [14:09] <remy> smaug____: I'll upload an example of FALLBACK using the star rule in a bit
# [14:10] <remy> annevk: I *had* a network rule that read: /remote/*
# [14:11] <remy> as per here (note that I've just commented it out): http://jsconsole.com/jsconsole.appcache
# [14:11] <smaug____> in the fallback section I don't see any special handling for * in Fx
# [14:11] <remy> was the /remote/* ever being used - or was it looking for a file called: /remote/* (as in a file called star)?
# [14:12] <smaug____> as far as I see /remote/* is interpret as URL
# [14:13] <annevk> remy, it is used as a prefix match /remote/*
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# [14:13] <annevk> remy, so every URL that starts with /remote/* would match
# [14:13] <remy> as in a literal asterisk?
# [14:14] <annevk> yeah sorry
# [14:14] <annevk> so resources like "/remote/*test"
# [14:14] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/about-blank-pageshow.html
# [14:15] <hsivonen> why don't I see DOMContentLoaded and pageshow in Opera?
# [14:15] <annevk> hsivonen, I am a little shocked you are still working on about:blank after three months (and I think it has been longer)
# [14:15] <remy> annevk: blimey. okay, then a lot of the folk, including me, have been writing about this completely wrong!
# [14:15] <gsnedders> hsivonen: we don't have pageshow/unshow
# [14:16] <hsivonen> annevk: well, I've done other stuff, too, I haven't worked on this as my only task
# [14:16] <hsivonen> annevk: but, yeah, it's pretty shocking
# [14:16] <annevk> remy, oops, guess we should have some WHATWG regulars attend these conferences and read the tutorials
# [14:16] <remy> annevk: => http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/appcache/beginner/
# [14:16] <hsivonen> annevk: note that this thing has been pending for over a year
# [14:16] <smaug____> s/unshow/pagehide/
# [14:16] <hsivonen> annevk: I started working on this stuff over a year ago
# [14:17] <hsivonen> annevk: but we decided to postpone this work past Firefox 4
# [14:17] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I also wouldn't be surprised if we didn't fire DOMContentLoaded on about:blank
# [14:17] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok
# [14:17] <gsnedders> smaug____: Proof that we don't implement it that I don't have a clue what it is called. :)
# [14:18] <remy> annevk: hmm, actually - some cases the star is working as a regex
# [14:18] <gsnedders> hsivonen: We don't actually use the parser for about:blank.
# [14:18] <remy> let me quickly change my demo
# [14:18] <hsivonen> some of the slowness can be blamed on me, but I blame the rest of the slowness to our load event firing code, readyState code and XUL
# [14:18] <hsivonen> none of those three is happy code
# [14:18] <smaug____> gsnedders: does Opera not have anything like bfcache?
# [14:20] <jgraham> We have bfcache
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# [14:20] <jgraham> We had taht before Gecko I believe
# [14:20] <remy> annevk: okay, I used to have a rule that read: http://* - but we're saying that wouldn't match anything unless it had a star at the start
# [14:20] <smaug____> remy: seems like http://www.html5rocks.com has buggy documentation
# [14:21] <remy> smaug____: random, given that it's coming out of google - but the offline stuff has confused people for a long while - even the "appcachefacts.info" has some stuff incorrect (follow this chat today)
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# [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen, I see, well, best of luck :)
# [14:22] <annevk> hsivonen, hopefully ten years from now about:blank is a solved problem
# [14:22] <remy> annevk: is there an exception in the spec to say if the NETWORK rule is * only, it will open the whitelist?
# [14:22] <smaug____> jgraham: just curious, in which cases is the bfcache disabled? In Gecko for example unload and beforeunload listeners disable it
# [14:23] <annevk> remy, yeah
# [14:23] <remy> aaaahhhh.
# [14:23] <annevk> remy, let me give you a pointer
# [14:23] <hsivonen> right now, I'm most worried about breaking XUL-based Firefox extensions if I make the initial about:blank sane for XUL-based browsing contexts, too
# [14:23] <gsnedders> smaug____: IIRC it never is
# [14:23] <remy> okay, that explains how the hell it's confused.
# [14:23] <hsivonen> well, for Webby values of "sane"
# [14:23] <smaug____> gsnedders: hmm, interesting
# [14:23] <annevk> remy, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/offline.html#dfnReturnLink-0
# [14:23] <annevk> (that is for authors)
# [14:24] <smaug____> gsnedders: what happens if you have an active XHR?
# [14:24] <gsnedders> smaug____: Dunno.
# [14:24] <smaug____> (Gecko also disables the bfcache if there are active requests like XHR)
# [14:24] <remy> annevk: that link frag identifier isn't working for me :( stupid browser
# [14:24] <annevk> remy, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/offline.html#parsing-cache-manifests (for user agents) step 28 under "online whitelist"
# [14:24] <annevk> remy, oops
# [14:25] <remy> got it
# [14:25] <remy> cheers
# [14:25] <remy> Well, I'm updating the offline chapter - which is why I'm asking all these questions.
# [14:25] <remy> thank you annevk you've cleaned up a lot of misunderstanding I had
# [14:25] <annevk> remy, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/offline.html#writing-cache-manifests under "Data for the current section" is for authors
# [14:26] <annevk> remy, glad to help out
# [14:27] <annevk> remy, if you want new functionality in the spec, best to email whatwg@whatwg.org with use cases (for best results avoid suggesting/starting with syntax)
# [14:27] <remy> the irony being that the * character implies syntax already :)
# [14:27] <remy> hence the confusion around the subject
# [14:28] <annevk> e.g. "I'd like different fallback for HTML and GIF resources."
# [14:28] <annevk> plus some rationale
# [14:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: IE9 fires DOMContentLoaded for about:blank, FWIW
# [14:28] <remy> yeah, it's things like having a fallback for avatars to a default image
# [14:28] <hsivonen> but not pageshow
# [14:28] <hsivonen> does pageshow exist at all in IE9?
# [14:29] <annevk> remy, on the other hand, if avatars are in /avatars you can do that by /avatars /avatars/fallback.png
# [14:29] <remy> annevk: so it's kinda like a substring match?
# [14:29] <annevk> yeah, HTML calls it a "prefix match"
# [14:30] <remy> prefix being ambiguous since files have prefixes -- but yeah, I'm getting that now.
# [14:30] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Ask jgraham what Ragnarök does.
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# [14:30] <annevk> (also not the URLs are resolved before this "prefix match" so you can use /avatars in the manifest but ../avatars/... in your HTML)
# [14:30] <remy> wow, subtle differences in understanding leaving me feeling rather rodgered.
# [14:31] <remy> annevk: okay, as in the browser works out what the resource url is before looking up against the manifest entries?
# [14:32] <annevk> the browser turns /avatar in the manifest into http://example.org/avatar and uses that as prefix match
# [14:33] <annevk> i.e. it doesn't use the actual string found in the manifest but turns it into an absolute URL first
# [14:33] <remy> yep - that makes sense.
# [14:33] <Ms2ger> Then you must misunderstand it :)
# [14:33] <Ms2ger> Nothing ever makes sense on the web
# [14:34] <annevk> Ms2ger, that sounds like logic
# [14:34] <annevk> violating the house rules again!
# [14:34] <Ms2ger> :(
# [14:34] <remy> you've been a big help, I'll make sure this gets written up in lay-dev terms
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# [14:58] <annevk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqtdAGjLGzo this is pretty cool
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# [15:02] <benschwarz> remy!
# [15:04] <annevk> already gone
# [15:05] <benschwarz> oh. damn
# [15:05] <benschwarz> never chatted with @rem live
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# [15:42] <annevk> I wonder how getUserMedia() is planned to be extended in the future
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# [15:42] <annevk> You'd think those four tokens could just be on the same level...
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# [15:55] <annevk> HTML has a bunch of "If callback is null, abort these steps." that can probably be replaced by simply not allowing the callback to be null
# [15:55] <annevk> though I guess that would be inconsistent with e.g. addEventListener and friends
# [15:55] <annevk> as you would get an exception
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# [15:58] <zcorpan> seems nicer to be able to use null instead of function(){}
# [15:58] <zcorpan> if you e.g. don't care about the success callback but care about the error callback
# [16:00] <boblet> normally the cite attribute for <blockquote> and <q> is for the quote’s source URL. I notice on the bottom of http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Cite it’s been used to semantically link to an in-page link—an id on the author’s name
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# [16:00] <annevk> zcorpan, what API is that?
# [16:01] <zcorpan> annevk: e.g. geolocation
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# [16:01] <annevk> PeerConnection says it is for client-to-client, but the descriptions are for servers.
# [16:01] <annevk> zcorpan, why would you not care about success?
# [16:02] <annevk> How do you use it client-to-client?
# [16:03] <zcorpan> annevk: maybe you don't need geolocation right now but will need it later, and want to inform the user not to waste time if geolocation isn't available, or something
# [16:03] <boblet> …putting aside the incorrect use of <cite> in that example, would <p>As <span id="quote-author1">George R. R. Martin</span> wrote, <q cite="#quote-author1">As soon as it’s released I’ll let you know</q></p> be a legit way to use @cite in <q>?
# [16:04] <annevk> no
# [16:05] <annevk> cite="" points to context
# [16:06] <boblet> annevk: cool. thought it was iffy but couldn’t figure out why
# [16:06] <asmodai> Heh cool
# [16:06] <boblet> annevk: also welcome back you slacker :p
# [16:06] <asmodai> talking with Rachel Blum who recently joined the Chrome team about BiDi stuff
# [16:08] <asmodai> annevk: pointed her to a post of yours at least
# [16:08] <asmodai> And some other pointers/hints.
# [16:09] <annevk> "The q element must not be used in place of quotation marks that do not represent quotes; for example, it is inappropriate to use the q element for marking up sarcastic statements." that should be "should not", no?
# [16:09] <annevk> boblet, hehe
# [16:09] <annevk> boblet, the spec is not that clear it seems, but it seems really weird to just point back to the author
# [16:09] <annevk> boblet, not really helping anyone
# [16:10] <annevk> boblet, maybe file a bug? and ask for an example of cite=""; the spec has none
# [16:10] <boblet> annevk: presume the reason is to explicitly associate author with quotation
# [16:10] <boblet> ok, will do
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# [16:10] <annevk> thanks!
# [16:11] <annevk> asmodai, :) you're on the Chrome team?
# [16:13] <adactio> Actually, I *do* the q element for sarcastic comments but I use the class attribute to distinguish them: <q class="air">social media guru</q>
# [16:13] <adactio> (I don't style them any differently though)
# [16:13] <boblet> annevk: ? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-q-element has an example of @cite (blockquote too)
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# [16:14] <boblet> no mention of a way to explicitly associate an author with a <q> though (possible with <blockquote> using <footer>)
# [16:15] <annevk> oops
# [16:16] <asmodai> annevk: nah
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# [16:17] <asmodai> annevk: I know someone who works there now though
# [16:17] <asmodai> annevk: Who's digging into this whole BiDi stuff.
# [16:17] <annevk> bidi is seriously complicated :/
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# [16:20] <asmodai> annevk: I wonder how much of those algorithms make sense in the current day world though.
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# [16:26] <annevk> Ms2ger, suggestions for labeling the old initEvent()? dom-Event-initEvent-old ?
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# [16:33] <annevk> actually writing down InitEvent dictionaries is more complicated than I thought
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# [16:42] <annevk> so passing a dictionary to an event using a different interface than the dictionary is associated with should throw
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# [16:42] <annevk> it needs to be both easy to define a new dictionary and be clear that inherited members are also set
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# [16:48] <annevk> heycam|away, what if a passed dictionary has a key that is not allowed?
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# [16:49] <annevk> heycam|away, ah, it seems that it will be dropped
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# [16:50] <smaug____> annevk: what do you mean with initEvent dictionaries?
# [16:50] <smaug____> what kind of changes are you making?
# [16:51] <annevk> initEvent(dictionary)
# [16:51] <smaug____> is it about passing { foo: bar} to init*Event ?
# [16:51] <annevk> yes
# [16:51] <smaug____> is it already defined how passing {} works?
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# [16:53] <annevk> smaug____, http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-dictionaries
# [16:53] <Ms2ger> There was some discussion about unknown keys in IDB, I think we ended up not throwing
# [16:54] <smaug____> annevk: so you propose that using dictionaries will be an additional way to initialize events?
# [16:55] <Ms2ger> Maybe use initEvent-dict for the new one?
# [16:55] <annevk> smaug____, as the only way forward
# [16:55] <annevk> smaug____, only keep init*Event where required
# [16:55] <annevk> once I figure out how to write it down :)
# [16:57] <smaug____> not that this is at all agreed or anything - but I guess I could accept such syntax
# [16:58] <smaug____> need to verify that Dictionaries work in a sane way
# [16:58] <annevk> nobody objected on the list three months ago
# [16:58] <annevk> and lots of people liked it
# [16:58] <annevk> that's enough agreed for me
# [16:59] <smaug____> how did webidl end up solving the getter problem
# [17:01] <annevk> not sure
# [17:01] <annevk> I think by converting objects to dictionaries somehow
# [17:02] <smaug____> btw, the new init method should be probably called just init()
# [17:02] <annevk> good idea
# [17:02] <smaug____> since the object is already event, why call it initEvent
# [17:03] <annevk> yeah
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# [17:19] <annevk> so we have some net neutrality law now
# [17:19] <annevk> next Tuesday they're gonna vote to remove the amendment that accidentally made it in...
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# [17:20] <annevk> oh, too soon, Eerste Kamer has to approve it also
# [17:21] <mpilgrim> heycam|away: once https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63110 , https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63114 , and https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63140 land, WebKit's IndexedDB implementation will be fully spec-compliant w.r.t. missing and null arguments
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# [17:22] <Ms2ger> mpilgrim++
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# [17:37] <annevk> the new way to initialize events: https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/b9bb17789db9
# [17:37] <Ms2ger> ...I heard my name?
# [17:38] <annevk> review?
# [17:38] <annevk> :)
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# [17:41] <smaug____> annevk: could you please make sure the getter handling is ok
# [17:42] <smaug____> I mean, if getters are supported, it must be defined in which order they are called etc
# [17:42] <Ms2ger> r=me, r?heycam ;)
# [17:42] <smaug____> and when they are called
# [17:42] <annevk> smaug____, that is up to heycam|away no?
# [17:42] <smaug____> sure, but if it isn't defined yet, it is a bit strange to add event.init()
# [17:43] <annevk> smaug____, I think that is what http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-dictionary does
# [17:43] <annevk> smaug____, but I do not really know for sure
# [17:44] <smaug____> ok
# [17:44] <smaug____> heycam|away: ^^^^
# [17:47] <smaug____> this all allows new kinds of loops. event.init({ getter type: function() { event.init(this) }})
# [17:47] <smaug____> but I guess browsers just need to handle that like they handle other endless loops
# [17:48] <annevk> I thought the whole idea was that dictionary types prevented that
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# [17:48] <smaug____> perhaps
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# [17:51] <Ms2ger> The ES people didn't like that, IIRC
# [17:54] <Ms2ger> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-event-init
# [17:56] <annevk> hober, the IDL does not change based on a content attribute
# [17:57] <annevk> Ms2ger, ta
# [17:57] <Ms2ger> We should really get you set up some day ;)
# [17:57] <annevk> this works
# [17:57] <annevk> hober, the second statement is not for UAs
# [17:58] <hober> annevk: ok.
# [17:58] <annevk> hober, there is simply no defined UI for placeholder and type=range and therefore it does nothing
# [17:58] <annevk> but reflection and all still works
# [17:58] <hober> annevk: right
# [17:58] <hober> annevk: that's what we thought internally, but the spec could be clearer
# [17:58] <smaug____> seems like webidl does allow getters
# [17:59] <annevk> smaug____, I guess you can ask sicking about the details
# [17:59] <annevk> smaug____, Indexed DB uses it too
# [17:59] <smaug____> yeah
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# [17:59] <smaug____> I should probably ask bent, not sicking
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# [19:42] <linclark> is there a microdata discussion list?
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# [19:42] <Ms2ger> whatwg@whatwg.org
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# [21:03] <AryehGregor> nodeList[nodeList.length - 1].parentNode.insertBefore(document.createElement("br"), nodeList[nodeList.length - 1].nextSibling);
# [21:03] <AryehGregor> I hate JavaScript. And DOM in particular.
# [21:04] <AryehGregor> That is a 127-character line just to insert a br after the last element of a list.
# [21:04] <Ms2ger> Who does that? :)
# [21:04] <AryehGregor> People writing JavaScript implementations for specs that have to do WYSIWYG DOM manipulations.
# [21:04] <Ms2ger> Pushed a couple of changed to DOM Range, btw
# [21:05] <AryehGregor> Like move some inline elements out of a block parent without putting them on the same line as their parents' siblings.
# [21:05] * AryehGregor looks
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# [21:05] <Philip`> Write yourself some helper functions, then you won't have to worry about the verbosity any more
# [21:05] <AryehGregor> WebIDL stuff?
# [21:06] <Ms2ger> Yeah
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# [21:06] <Ms2ger> Boring stuff
# [21:06] <AryehGregor> It would reduce spec verbosity too, if I defined some terms like "add X as the next sibling of Y".
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# [21:07] <Philip`> Subroutines were a great invention
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# [21:09] <zewt-> RETURN WITHOUT GOSUB
# [21:10] <AryehGregor> Is anyone else deeply suspicious when they rewrite something nontrivial and it causes nothing to break and no regression test failures?
# [21:11] <Ms2ger> Yes
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# [21:11] <zewt-> everyone, I think, heh
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# [21:35] <zewt-> crippling history.pushState bug still happens in FF5, apparently :| time to update my workarounds...
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# [21:45] <hsivonen> zewt-: have you reported the bug?
# [21:46] <zewt-> reported it in FF4, was fixed two months ago, but i guess the fix didn't make it into FF5 for some reason
# [21:46] <Ms2ger> The target milestone field should tell you
# [21:47] <hsivonen> zewt-: bug #?
# [21:47] <zewt-> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=640387
# [21:48] <zewt-> just frustrating that a crippling bug that was fixed something like two months earlier didn't make it into the release, particularly because it's a bug I need to use browser version sniffing to work around
# [21:48] <hsivonen> zewt-: ah. it will be in Firefox 6
# [21:48] <zewt-> okay, i'll stop ranting :P
# [21:48] <hsivonen> 6 weeks from now
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# [21:50] <AryehGregor> Full releases are every six weeks now, like Chrome stable?
# [21:51] <AryehGregor> I thought it was going to be more like once every three months.
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# [21:51] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: 4 to 5 took 3 months
# [21:51] <hsivonen> from now on every 6 weeks
# [21:51] <AryehGregor> Nice.
# [21:51] <zewt-> sure feels like massive overcompensation (for the prior slow release cycle)--that seems much *too* frequent
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# [21:51] <AryehGregor> It matches Chrome stable.
# [21:51] <AryehGregor> Which IMO is a good pace.
# [21:52] <AryehGregor> You've got to have lots and lots of testing, but if you can deploy that frequently, it's awesome.
# [21:52] <zewt-> we'll see what happens, I guess
# [21:52] <AryehGregor> MediaWiki development was the best when we were deploying to Wikipedia every week.
# [21:52] <AryehGregor> It means you only have to do out-of-band updates for really really critical stuff; and when you get a bug report you can say "oh, I remember what change must have caused that".
# [21:53] <AryehGregor> The latter is especially great, everything is still fresh in your mind when the bug reports come in.
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# [21:53] <AryehGregor> I remember at least once when a user complained about something in #wikimedia-tech and I had a merge conflict when committing like two minutes later because another developer also immediately remembered the commit and pushed the same one-line fix right before I did.
# [21:53] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Well, unless bugs don't get found for ages.
# [21:54] <AryehGregor> Plus, it's much more rewarding for volunteers.
# [21:54] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Which compiler bugs, for example, tend to be like.
# [21:54] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, then you're in the same boat regardless, but you're not worse off with fast release cycles than slow ones.
# [21:55] * AryehGregor strongly holds the opinion that long release cycles are a relic of pre-Internet eras when pushing out patches was impractically expensive, and that everyone in a position to autoupdate should be pushing out updates very regularly instead of big huge irregular updates
# [21:55] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Indeed. But yeah, it does mean that you tend to find issues quicker
# [21:55] <zewt-> seems like thinks would feel a little less silly if they used year-month for version numbers instead of numbers--it's going to look pretty goofy when we're on Chrome 63 and Firefox 52
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# [21:55] <AryehGregor> Another big advantage is you keep a regular development cadence. You don't have to go through months of feature development, then months of testing, months of bug-fixing, etc.
# [21:55] * gsnedders wonders how much Fx stuff will break with sniffing at 10
# [21:55] <Ms2ger> Not really, because you won't see the version number
# [21:56] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Does anyone do that? Even those who have long-cycles?
# [21:56] <AryehGregor> You also don't have to maintain multiple versions for long.
# [21:56] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, IE, maybe? :)
# [21:56] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, I have no idea. I'm sure it's not that extreme in most cases, but you tend to have code freezes, at least.
# [21:57] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: As far as I can tell they do testing and bug-fixing all at once.
# [21:57] <AryehGregor> You must get bug reports on an irregular cadence if you wait a long time before releasing betas, no?
# [21:57] <zewt-> gsnedders: are we going to end up with yet another wart in our U-A's: "Firefox/9.0 Firefoxier/10", heh
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# [21:57] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I dunno.
# [21:58] <AryehGregor> Browsers other than IE and Safari have always had a release schedule of multiple non-bugfix releases per year, though. Lots of major software packages are only updated once every few years.
# [21:59] <gsnedders> Well, if you ignore Opera 10, for example
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# [21:59] <AryehGregor> But this push for more rapid development is totally awesome, by the way. It's symptomatic of the pace at which browser development is going right now: if you don't release often, you'll be significantly worse on average than your frequently-releasing competitors.
# [21:59] <AryehGregor> It's a sign of intense competition. Yay standards!
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# [22:01] <gsnedders> Gah, I really ought to write a blog post on Presto version numbering nowadays.
# [22:01] <gsnedders> tl;dr version: everything but the third number in it is effectively meaningless to web developers
# [22:01] <gsnedders> (except really really really really occasionally when the second number has meaning)
# [22:01] <AryehGregor> Did Gecko's version number jump to match Firefox's, by the way?
# [22:02] <gsnedders> (And the Wikipedia article makes claims about what the stable/preview releases of Presto are, which seems hard to do given Presto is a purely internal project.)
# [22:04] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [22:04] <gsnedders> (It basically goes by what the stable/preview versions of one product use)
# [22:04] <Ms2ger> And Thunderbird is jumping as well
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# [22:47] <heycam> annevk, smaug____, getters are run, but in a defined order, and at a defined time
# [22:48] <heycam> all argument conversion stuff happens at the start of a method call
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# [23:48] <annevk> where can one find the latest editor's response boilerplate?
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# Session Close: Thu Jun 23 00:00:00 2011

The end :)