/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 23 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:06] <othermaciej> annevk: there's a whatwg wiki page that links it and has collected resources for bug processing
  6. # [00:06] * Joins: LoneStar99 (~dmontalvo@189.161.110.160)
  7. # [00:06] <LoneStar99> can i ask a canvas question here?
  8. # [00:06] <othermaciej> annevk: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Bugzilla_conventions
  9. # [00:06] <othermaciej> annevk: see the two links in the Resolutions section
  10. # [00:08] <LoneStar99> when using canvas and a new color eg. "#006699" is picked a drawing is completely colored in "#006699" ??
  11. # [00:08] <LoneStar99> instead of keeping previous color and only painting new lines in "#006699"?
  12. # [00:08] <annevk> it has not changed since 2009? okay
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  14. # [00:09] <annevk> I had found that page, just wasn't sure whether the email link represented the official version
  15. # [00:09] <othermaciej> I think that text might also be somewhere in decision-policy-v2
  16. # [00:09] <othermaciej> but I also believe it has not changed
  17. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: 'inside' list markers definitely cause a linebox. 'outside' list markers are crazier when the <li> is otherwise empty.
  18. # [00:09] <jamesr> LoneStar99: fillStyle applies to fills done after the new style is set, same for strokeStyle with strokes
  19. # [00:09] <jamesr> until the styles are set to something else
  20. # [00:10] <othermaciej> annevk: yeah, the Editor's Response boilerplate is also right above the bug resolution table
  21. # [00:11] <annevk> othermaciej, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12822
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  23. # [00:11] <LoneStar99> jamesr: i am using strokeStyle
  24. # [00:11] <annevk> othermaciej, and I missed that somehow, thanks!
  25. # [00:11] <annevk> I see "Additional Information Needed" was added which I needed :)
  26. # [00:12] <LoneStar99> jamesr: for example: http://bobc.in/im/drop/cc/mb/uwqx-0 "color" is blue but will switch to red
  27. # [00:14] <Philip`> If you want to draw with two different colours, create two different paths and stroke them separately (with separate strokeStyles for each call to stroke())
  28. # [00:14] <othermaciej> annevk: when you NEEDSINFO it's helpful to be more specific about what kinds of info would be good grounds for a reopen
  29. # [00:15] <othermaciej> although I can see that the bug was very vague
  30. # [00:15] <othermaciej> but I'd at least say something like "please be more specific about your request
  31. # [00:16] <LoneStar99> Phillip: oh so I have to start a new "ctx.beginPath();" that should do it...
  32. # [00:16] <Philip`> LoneStar99: Yes
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  34. # [00:19] <LoneStar99> Philip: ok perfect, will move it down then thanks!
  35. # [00:21] <annevk> othermaciej, ok
  36. # [00:28] <jamesr> is there a spec anywhere for how document.cookies works?
  37. # [00:28] <jamesr> HTML's definition references the storage mutex
  38. # [00:28] <jamesr> so i guess there isn't one that reflects the racy reality :/
  39. # [00:31] <annevk> file a bug on HTML if you want the racy reality
  40. # [00:32] <jamesr> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13020
  41. # [00:32] <jamesr> hm that didn't do quite what i wanted
  42. # [00:33] <jamesr> i'm curious what formal normative text would look like that accurately depicted what happens with document.cookie
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  44. # [00:35] <annevk> "There be dragons."
  45. # [00:36] <jamesr> certainly, but in the spirit of capturing actual behavior in specs it'd be interesting to describe this dragon precisely
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  52. # [00:45] <LoneStar99> jamesr: ok thanks got it --> http://bobc.in/im/drop/cc/mb/uwqx-0
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  55. # [00:50] <annevk> I closed some bugs, but there's a lot of them
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  83. # [01:49] <Yuhong> http://d0cs4vage.blogspot.com/2011/06/insecticides-dont-kill-bugs-patch.html
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  198. # [07:43] <variable> what is the appropriate way to mark up column headers in a table?
  199. # [07:44] <ryanseddon> thead with th and scope attribute set to col
  200. # [07:45] <variable> ryanseddon: what if both columns and rows are headers?
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  202. # [07:46] <ryanseddon> put row headers in a th and give them scope="row"
  203. # [07:46] <variable> ah ok cool
  204. # [07:47] <variable> so it goes <thead> <th scope="row">row header</th>... <th scope="col">column head</th></thead> <tr><td>fooooo</td></tr> ?
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  206. # [07:55] <ryanseddon> yeah that looks ok
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  208. # [08:01] <variable> thanks!
  209. # [08:03] <ryanseddon> variable: you might want to look over this too http://www.usability.com.au/resources/tables.cfm
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  226. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> http://scottbw.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/converting-chrome-installed-web-apps-into-w3c-widgets/
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  273. # [11:07] <annevk> hsivonen, did you see the changes to MetaExtensions on the wiki?
  274. # [11:08] <hsivonen> annevk: I saw something yesterday but was too focused on about:blank to act before I had to run away from my desk
  275. # [11:09] <annevk> Someone moved the dc stuff back to being okay afaict
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  277. # [11:10] <hsivonen> annevk: and zapped a Bing keyword by accident apparently
  278. # [11:12] <annevk> I hit rollback and it automatically did things...
  279. # [11:12] <annevk> I thought you would get a confirmation page for that first
  280. # [11:12] <annevk> and you know, a button
  281. # [11:13] <hsivonen> annevk: why did you revert the dc stuff?
  282. # [11:14] <annevk> it was not incomplete?
  283. # [11:14] <hsivonen> annevk: a bit incomplete still, but at this point, it would make more sense to fix it rather than to revert, IMO
  284. # [11:15] <annevk> undid my changes
  285. # [11:17] <annevk> it looks like more was deleted by him btw
  286. # [11:18] <annevk> +1,338 and -2,553 ...
  287. # [11:18] <annevk> oh maybe he did not just move but also change the contents
  288. # [11:18] <annevk> or she
  289. # [11:19] <hsivonen> annevk: yes, (s)he made those entries suck less
  290. # [11:19] <hsivonen> annevk: I'll complete the spec trail now
  291. # [11:19] <hsivonen> annevk: I think it's ok to have a subset of dcterms registered
  292. # [11:19] <hsivonen> annevk: if the rest of the terms aren't interesting enough for anyone to try to register, let's leave them unregistered
  293. # [11:20] <hsivonen> I'm not going to spend my day registering the long tail of dcterms
  294. # [11:20] <annevk> so is WHATWG still doing <meta> and microformats.org only doing rel=""?
  295. # [11:21] <zcorpan> yes
  296. # [11:21] <annevk> k cool
  297. # [11:21] <zcorpan> that was the Decision
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  301. # [11:24] <hsivonen> dcterms.issued and dcterms.modified suck because DC sucks and doesn't spec the date format
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  304. # [11:38] <hsivonen> yay, of the registered dcterms keywords, only the underdefined date-related ones aren't redundant with HTML's built-in features
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  307. # [11:47] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/06/initializing-events is the use of a hyphen in user-agent correct here?
  308. # [11:49] <hsivonen> annevk: no
  309. # [11:49] <hsivonen> annevk: user agent-generated
  310. # [11:49] <hsivonen> would be correct
  311. # [11:50] * zcorpan finds "user-agent defined" in html5
  312. # [11:51] <annevk> whoa
  313. # [11:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: maybe that's allowed in en-US-x-Hixie
  314. # [11:51] <annevk> that looks weird
  315. # [11:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: user agent-generated looks odd to me
  316. # [11:53] <jgraham> whereas user-agent generated looks fine
  317. # [11:54] <zcorpan> annevk: events event
  318. # [11:54] * annevk removes the hyphen
  319. # [11:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: what rule do you use to justify that kind of hyphenation?
  320. # [11:54] <annevk> zcorpan, ta
  321. # [11:55] <hsivonen> I left my copy of CMoS in Finland, so I can't cite chapter and verse, but the chapter and verse is probably in the IRC logs already
  322. # [11:55] <hsivonen> when annevk asked about the hyphenation of English compound adjectives the previous time
  323. # [11:56] <annevk> :) trips me up
  324. # [11:56] <jgraham> hsivonen: "it looks right". But I think in this case the hyphen has the effect of increasing the tightness of binding. So user agent-generated looks like user (agent generated) whereas user-agent generated looks like (user agent) generated. And indeed I believe that compound nouns often go user agent -> user-agent -> useragent
  325. # [11:56] * Quits: agektmr1 (~Adium@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  326. # [11:56] <hsivonen> though CMoS should be taken with a grain of salt, since it advocates the use on an en dash is Civil War–era
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  328. # [11:57] * jgraham is very skeptical of style guides in general
  329. # [11:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh, I agree that the appearance of the tightness of binding sucks
  330. # [11:57] <hsivonen> s/is/in/
  331. # [11:57] <jgraham> They often seem to be written by people with a very prescriptive view of linguistics
  332. # [11:57] <jgraham> and no understanding of language evolution
  333. # [11:58] <hsivonen> the job of a style guide is to be prescriptive
  334. # [11:59] <annevk> maybe it should be user-agent-generated
  335. # [11:59] <jgraham> But languages and fashions change. And indeed aren't that consistent to begin with. So the style guide will necessarily be wrong
  336. # [11:59] <hsivonen> annevk: I think that would make sense but isn't what CMoS would say
  337. # [11:59] <annevk> from what I read here in the The Economist Style Guide user-agent generated seems fine
  338. # [12:00] <hsivonen> annevk: whoa!
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  341. # [12:00] <annevk> they have "public-sector borrowing requirements" as one of the examples
  342. # [12:00] <gsnedders> Even descriptiveness is becoming harder nowadays… It's now far harder for new words to get words into the OED, for example, as you need three written, published, sources. The majority of publishers use spell-checkers in their editing process, so the words will be changed.
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  344. # [12:00] <zcorpan> maybe -user agent generated- ?
  345. # [12:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: Given the above it is hardly surprising that two style guides disagree
  346. # [12:01] * annevk forgot he had a style guide
  347. # [12:02] <zcorpan> it's easier in swedish. användaragentgenererad
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  349. # [12:03] <annevk> no idea how this would go in Dutch
  350. # [12:03] <jgraham> zcorpan: Only because Swedes haven't heard of space characters :p
  351. # [12:03] <hsivonen> jgraham: maybe the APA Publication Manual is a phychology experiment
  352. # [12:04] <zcorpan> user agent gegenereerd?
  353. # [12:05] <annevk> zcorpan, heh, I was stuck at "user agent"
  354. # [12:05] <annevk> gebruikersagent :p
  355. # [12:06] <zcorpan> good thing with dutch is that you just use the english word if it doesn't translate well :)
  356. # [12:06] <annevk> yeah
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  370. # [12:35] <annevk> Is today a holiday or something? Almost nothing seems to be going on...
  371. # [12:42] <karlcow> annevk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_23#Holidays_and_observances ;)
  372. # [12:44] <karlcow> oh it gave me the opportunity to discover this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events
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  376. # [13:05] <annevk> heycam is only on email...
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  385. # [13:21] <zcorpan> http://www.bookofspeed.com/chapter4.html - "Any XML file including RSS and Atom feeds, SVG graphics, IE's .htc files, DTD (Document Type Definition) and basically anything else that ends in *ML"
  386. # [13:22] <zcorpan> now why would you have a DTD if you cared about performance
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  398. # [13:40] <jgraham> zcorpan: Why would you have a DTD anyway?
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  401. # [13:41] <zcorpan> yeah
  402. # [13:42] <annevk> published by W3C, must be good
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  404. # [13:44] <jgraham> annevk: With that in mind I plan to add EmotionML to all my webpages so people know when I am being sarcastic.
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  406. # [13:46] <annevk> seems you forgot some markup right there!
  407. # [13:46] <annevk> oh wait
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  415. # [14:07] <annevk> Can someone help me with hg?
  416. # [14:07] <annevk> I mistakenly used hg update -c and now the work I did in my commits is lost
  417. # [14:08] <annevk> They are however still in my local log (have not pushed yet) so I should be able to turn things around I think if I know how
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  424. # [14:11] <Philip`> annevk: Sounds like you just updated the working directory to a changeset that doesn't include your commits, so you should be able to update back to it by specifying your latest changeset
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  431. # [14:25] <karlcow> rha hsivonen sent a link to the long version
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  434. # [14:31] <annevk> Philip`, thanks; didn't really work out, but I resolved it somehow
  435. # [14:31] <Philip`> Oh
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  438. # [14:37] <annevk> Philip`, my clumsyness, not your advice
  439. # [14:37] <annevk> ooh
  440. # [14:37] <annevk> partial is not the new [Supplemental]
  441. # [14:37] <annevk> s/not//
  442. # [14:40] <annevk> Ms2ger`, http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#dom-range-createcontextualfragment markup is borked
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  448. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> it seems the state of things with Web Storage is sort of as was the state of things pre-transaction-support MySQL
  449. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> in that, lack of transaction support in MySQL made is quite possible to end up with a corrupted DB
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  451. # [14:56] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12230 was there ever a bug filed on Gecko?
  452. # [14:56] <annevk> and other browsers?
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  454. # [15:01] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: MyISAM still supports no transactions, AFAIK. Just other table formats do.
  455. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> oh
  456. # [15:04] <jgraham> I see gsnedders is working towards a ghostbusters-like grammar
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  462. # [15:13] <The_8472> myisam doesn't support transactions, but mutating actions take an exclusive table lock
  463. # [15:13] <The_8472> so you don't end up with concurrent writes
  464. # [15:14] <Philip`> I think it's consistent with the view that each SQL statement is implicitly executed in an ACID transaction, you just can't do multi-statement transactions
  465. # [15:17] <annevk> Inbox 750 o_O
  466. # [15:18] <annevk> I think this is actually lower than before I went away
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  473. # [15:25] <koskoz> !topic
  474. # [15:25] <volkmar> someone knows if there is an implementation of the HTML command api by any vendor?
  475. # [15:25] <annevk> haven't heard of any
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  489. # [15:53] <Ms2ger`> annevk, thanks, fixed
  490. # [15:53] <Ms2ger`> (Though I kind of liked the orange :))
  491. # [15:56] <annevk> Netherlands ftw
  492. # [15:56] <Ms2ger`> No comment ):
  493. # [15:56] <Ms2ger`> )
  494. # [15:56] * Ms2ger` tries that again
  495. # [15:56] <Ms2ger`> :)
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  498. # [16:00] <annevk> Ms2ger`, BAD_BOUNDARY_POINTS_ERR or some such became INVALID_STATE_ERR?
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  500. # [16:01] <annevk> I guess we should ask File API to also use DOMException and request codes they'd like to see added...
  501. # [16:01] * Ms2ger` is now known as Ms2ger
  502. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> Yeah, there was one one user
  503. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> Seemed a bit wasteful
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  520. # [17:34] <hsivonen> hah. even at Google, marketing seems to trust PDF over HTML: http://www.google.com/help/hc/images/Google_Places_OneSheeter.pdf
  521. # [17:34] <hsivonen> does anyone know if Google Maps picks up business locations from coordinates in meta tags on Web sites?
  522. # [17:39] <annevk> hmm, heycam?!
  523. # [17:40] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-partial-interface should be updated to say it can also be more than one spec
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  529. # [18:04] <annevk> Ms2ger, you mentioned that matches bug no?
  530. # [18:04] <annevk> Ms2ger, IDL bug in cssom-view
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  542. # [18:16] <karlcow> hsivonen: Note that we do not use locational meta tags (like "geo.position" or "distribution") or HTML attributes for geotargeting. While these may be useful in other regards, we've found that they are generally not reliable enough to use for geotargeting.
  543. # [18:16] <karlcow> — http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2010/03/working-with-multi-regional-websites.html
  544. # [18:16] <annevk> Ms2ger, concept-document-character-encoding and concept-document-media-type?
  545. # [18:16] <hsivonen> karlcow: thanks
  546. # [18:17] <karlcow> I do not know what yahoo, or bing do
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  549. # [18:21] <annevk> Ms2ger, also, we should probably introduce the term "attribute" to mean "Attr object"
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  576. # [18:48] <Ms2ger> annevk, attribute makes sense, concept-s look good, not sure what CSSOM bug you mean
  577. # [18:49] <annevk> hmm
  578. # [18:49] <annevk> removing CaretPosition.range is non-trivial
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  582. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> Hixie, what's the Bugzilla query you use for deciding the order of the bugs you look at? It might be helpful to put at <http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Bugzilla_conventions>.
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  609. # [19:57] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/mid/BANLkTi=cfgCzsYkTX8a-68CPW6bdHNpdvA@mail.gmail.com anyone a good name for this?
  610. # [19:58] <annevk> Gecko has "attachment" atm and WebKit "affinity"
  611. # [19:58] <annevk> neither seem particularly clear for a boolean
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  613. # [19:59] <Philip`> Sticky-direction
  614. # [19:59] <AryehGregor> So it seems the status quo with copy/paste is that browsers refuse to support it and therefore everyone uses Flash?
  615. # [20:00] <annevk> Philip`, is that a serious suggestion?
  616. # [20:00] * annevk cannot tell
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  618. # [20:02] <Philip`> Doesn't matter whether it's serious, just whether it's any clearer than the alternatives
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  622. # [20:07] <rafaelw> morning all. question about assigning null to HTMLInputElement.value
  623. # [20:08] <rafaelw> gecko reacts by setting the value property to the empty string.
  624. # [20:08] <rafaelw> webkit resets the value property the value of the attribute.
  625. # [20:08] <rafaelw> i'm having trouble locating the relevant place in the spec.
  626. # [20:09] <annevk> what does resetting the value property mean?
  627. # [20:09] <annevk> (also depends on an unresolved Web IDL issue)
  628. # [20:09] <rafaelw> if I had <input value="foo">, assigning myInput.value = null
  629. # [20:10] <Philip`> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-DOMString should be where it's defined, I think
  630. # [20:10] <rafaelw> gecko: myInput.value === '';
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  632. # [20:10] <rafaelw> webkit: myInput.value === 'foo'
  633. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> Should be "null", probably
  634. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> value is not nullable, so per spec, null will be cast to a string.
  635. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> Either "" or "null".
  636. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> It looks like current WebIDL says "null".
  637. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> It does
  638. # [20:15] <smaug____> webkit's behavior is very surprising
  639. # [20:15] <smaug____> would be good to test what Opera and IE do
  640. # [20:15] <smaug____> if they assign "" to the value
  641. # [20:15] <smaug____> would make sense to spec that
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  643. # [20:17] <rafaelw> trying to get to my windows box right now =-)
  644. # [20:19] <smaug____> Opera behaves like Gecko
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  646. # [20:19] <smaug____> http://mozilla.pettay.fi/moztests/inputvalue.html
  647. # [20:20] <rafaelw> IE assigns 'null'
  648. # [20:20] <rafaelw> it also set the attribute value to 'null'
  649. # [20:21] <rafaelw> which gecko didn't do.
  650. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> I should update my reflection tests to test this, now that we're clear on what we want for null.
  651. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> Gecko converted the null to an empty string, IE converted to "null".
  652. # [20:21] <smaug____> AryehGregor: is it already clear in which cases we want "null" and in which cases ""?
  653. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> smaug____, the current WebIDL spec says "null" is the default now. Exceptions need to be specced on a case-by-case basis by adding [TreatNullAs=EmptyString] or such.
  654. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> So it would be good to test so we can find the exceptions.
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  656. # [20:22] <smaug____> WebIDL says what the default is, but do we know what the exceptions are
  657. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> No, which is why tests are good, to find out the exceptions.
  658. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> I'll do that shortly.
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  662. # [20:25] <rafaelw> gecko's behavior seems the most useful.
  663. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Making null become an empty string makes the most sense, yeah.
  664. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> But I'm not sure if it's compatible in general.
  665. # [20:28] <annevk> smaug____, I think that might be our recent change to align with Gecko/WebKit null-value handling in DOM bindings
  666. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> friends, I made an attempt at organizing current web-platform specs into categories
  667. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> http://people.w3.org/mike/web-platform.html
  668. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> comments welcome
  669. # [20:29] <Philip`> No WebIDL?
  670. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> oh
  671. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> will add it
  672. # [20:29] <smaug____> MikeSmith: why you have Web Audio API, but not Audio API?
  673. # [20:29] <Philip`> There's some obsolete links to /TR/
  674. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  676. # [20:30] <Philip`> (At least canvas)
  677. # [20:30] <smaug____> s/Audio API/Audio Data API/
  678. # [20:30] <MikeSmith> smaug____: is there an actual spec for it?
  679. # [20:31] * Quits: shiawuen (~shiawuent@182.55.100.142) (Quit: shiawuen)
  680. # [20:31] <smaug____> MikeSmith: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Audio_Data_API
  681. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> Bonus features?
  682. # [20:31] * Ms2ger likes that title
  683. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> smaug____: thanks
  684. # [20:31] <smaug____> MikeSmith: Web Audio API isn't in anyway more "spec" than Audio Data API
  685. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, ElementTraversal is now specified in DOM Core
  686. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> And you're missing XHR2
  687. # [20:32] <smaug____> I assume neither of those APIs will become a recommendation
  688. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks
  689. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> And CSS
  690. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> Oh, you don't
  691. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> smaug____: will add audio data api when i get back to my vim
  692. # [20:34] <smaug____> ok, thanks
  693. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> smaug____: thanks for the heads-up about it?
  694. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: has anybody implemented xhr2?
  695. # [20:35] <smaug____> XHR2?
  696. # [20:35] <Ms2ger> I think we're doing parts of it
  697. # [20:35] <smaug____> progress events for XHR are from XHR2
  698. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> smaug____: s/about it?/about it./
  699. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ok, will add it
  700. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> responseType, too?
  701. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> ?
  702. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> what spec?
  703. # [20:36] <annevk> Cross-origin XHR is XHR2 too
  704. # [20:36] <annevk> XHR is just to please some people, XHR2 is the real deal
  705. # [20:37] <annevk> (XHR is generated with some switches from the XHR2 draft)
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  707. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> Philip`: i will change all the non-REC TR links to EDs instead
  708. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, were you going to list HTTP and friends as well?
  709. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> no
  710. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> XML and xml:base?
  711. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> DOM Traversal
  712. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> i think i wont put anything un-sexy
  713. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> dom traversal?
  714. # [20:39] <smaug____> XSLT
  715. # [20:39] <smaug____> XPath
  716. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> hmm
  717. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> And http://dev.chromium.org/developers/web-platform-status, fyi
  718. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> i guess i got to add those
  719. # [20:40] <smaug____> Range is part of the same spec as traversal http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Traversal-Range/Overview.html#contents
  720. # [20:40] <MikeSmith> as un-sexy as they may be
  721. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> smaug____, not anymore ;)
  722. # [20:42] <smaug____> Ms2ger: is there already somewhat stable and reviewed spec for Range?
  723. # [20:42] <smaug____> new spec
  724. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> For some value of somewhat :)
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  727. # [20:44] <smaug____> surprising or not, the old DOM Range is pretty consistent spec
  728. # [20:44] <smaug____> internally
  729. # [20:44] <smaug____> terrible to read though
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  731. # [20:47] <annevk> smaug____, replacement is here: http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html
  732. # [20:48] <annevk> smaug____, needs review still I believe
  733. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> And, well, speccing
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  737. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> I had in mind to limit this list to specs that actually expose methods to web applications/developers
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  740. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> in the more general sense of methods
  741. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> stuff they can use in scripts or in markup
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  743. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> So first of all, it looks like Gecko converts null to "" instead of "null" across the board for setAttribute(), which contradicts all other browsers.
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  745. # [20:58] <Ms2ger> Gecko converts null to "" pretty much everywhere
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  747. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> The main exceptions are a few things I changed and code that works on the JS values directly
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  753. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> Seems WebKit is also a fan of converting null to "", except where it unsets the attribute.
  754. # [21:06] <Ms2ger> For webkit, the exception would be indexeddb
  755. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> Opera follows spec on this point everywhere. IE does in most cases too, but I think there are some exceptions.
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  758. # [21:12] <annevk> pushed a few https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core edits
  759. # [21:12] <annevk> we now have concept-document/element/attribute; hurray
  760. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> Okay, so I have a list of all the reflected attributes where IE9 casts null to "". Do we want to spec these? In all those cases, the only browser that casts to "null" is Opera.
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  762. # [21:13] * AryehGregor files a bug regardless
  763. # [21:13] <annevk> interesting
  764. # [21:13] <annevk> I thought we changed to use "" pretty much exclusively
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  768. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> annevk, doesn't look like I have IANACHARSET defined
  769. # [21:18] <annevk> one day it will be obsolete I guess
  770. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> Okay, so why does WebIDL follow IE/Opera here instead of Gecko/WebKit? Don't we usually prefer to follow Gecko/WebKit?
  771. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> IE complained
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  774. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> And it matches JS
  775. # [21:23] <annevk> Gecko complained too
  776. # [21:25] <annevk> "[TreatNullAs=EmptyString] DOMString" shouldn't that be "[TreatNullAs=EmptyString] DOMString?" ?
  777. # [21:25] <annevk> note the trailing ?
  778. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> No
  779. # [21:26] <Ms2ger> If you have DOMString?, you handle null in the algorithm
  780. # [21:28] <annevk> k
  781. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> Gecko complained that we convert null to "" instead of "null", when Gecko itself consistently converts null to ""?
  782. # [21:30] <annevk> Gecko did not want the IDL default to be ""
  783. # [21:30] <annevk> consequently, I suspect they want to change their API
  784. # [21:30] <annevk> s
  785. # [21:30] <annevk> at least, I hope they do
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  787. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> i just finished fixing webkit's indexeddb to make null -> "null", don't you dare change it again
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  790. # [21:37] <mpilgrim> even though i hate it and think it's a stupid default
  791. # [21:40] <Dashiva> This is one place where exceptions have the upper hand :)
  792. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> The web?
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  801. # [21:47] <Dashiva> Ms2ger: No, places where you don't want to handle edge cases
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  803. # [21:58] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-partial-interface should be updated to say it can also be more than one spec
  804. # [21:59] <annevk> heycam, ^^
  805. # [22:00] <heycam> I think the idea of things being defined before other things probably needs to be revised in general
  806. # [22:00] <heycam> not everyone is putting all their IDL in one big fragment
  807. # [22:00] <heycam> and there's no real difference between multiple fragments within the one spec and multiple specs
  808. # [22:01] <heycam> I am interested to see if people other than Hixie want to use partial
  809. # [22:01] <heycam> and whether then I think it's an appropriate use of it or not :)
  810. # [22:01] <annevk> I told you once before http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/ uses it
  811. # [22:01] <annevk> http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html uses it too
  812. # [22:01] <annevk> http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html too
  813. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> And http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html
  814. # [22:02] <annevk> hah
  815. # [22:02] <heycam> I see
  816. # [22:03] <heycam> to me it seems like that should be `[NoInterfaceObject] interface WindowCSS { ... }; Window implements WindowCSS;`
  817. # [22:03] <heycam> but I will think about it some more
  818. # [22:03] * heycam has a telcon now
  819. # [22:03] <heycam> oh congrats on bug 666666 btw Ms2ger :)
  820. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> heycam, no, we're not in the nineties anymore
  821. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> heycam, and thanks )
  822. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> :)
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  825. # [22:06] <annevk> heycam, whoa please no
  826. # [22:07] <annevk> soooo ugly
  827. # [22:07] <annevk> heycam, you could name it "additional" instead of "partial" though
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  837. # [22:41] <twisted> yo
  838. # [22:41] <twisted> #ja-mainnav div.main div.ja-megamenu ul.megamenu li.active a:hover {
  839. # [22:41] <twisted> doesn't work
  840. # [22:41] <twisted> but
  841. # [22:41] <twisted> #ja-mainnav div.main div.ja-megamenu ul.megamenu li.active a {
  842. # [22:41] <twisted> does...
  843. # [22:41] <twisted> and I'm totally beat
  844. # [22:42] <twisted> css validator gives me a lexicon error
  845. # [22:42] <twisted> tried different encodings, (ascii, latin1, utf8 (default))
  846. # [22:43] <paul_irish> twisted: come over to #html5 and ask that and we can help you out there
  847. # [22:48] <paul_irish>
  848. # [22:48] <paul_irish> where can i find out more on why html5 video doesnt have an alpha channel?
  849. # [22:50] <bga_> i never hear that any video codeс supports rgba color
  850. # [22:50] <bga_> and i dont know why somebody need rgba video
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  852. # [22:51] <paul_irish> in some webapps it'd be more effective to have small videos for effects (that i can make in After Effects) rather than do that sort of thing in canvas
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  854. # [22:53] <bga_> i understand
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  856. # [22:54] <bga_> paul_irish there is apng
  857. # [22:55] <paul_irish> yeah.. and you can Chroma Key out a solid color via 2d canvas pixel data
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  859. # [22:56] <paul_irish> but.. i want that .. natively
  860. # [22:56] <bga_> or 2 videos 1st is rgb 2nd is greyscale as alpha channel and mix using canvas %)
  861. # [22:56] <paul_irish> yeah
  862. # [22:58] <bga_> paul_irish i guess patch to webm and theora is easiest way
  863. # [22:59] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  864. # [22:59] <paul_irish> i will email my webm dude.
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  867. # [23:07] <KevinMarks> quicktime supports alpha channel video; has for over a decade
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  869. # [23:10] <KevinMarks> it is often better to have a separate alpha channel matte rather than make it part of the video pixels
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  880. # [23:41] <Hixie> dbaron: these media query listener things are implemented?
  881. # [23:42] <dbaron> Hixie, yes, in Gecko and I think in chrome (though my testcase didn't send the notifications in Chrome for some reason... though the addListener succeeded)
  882. # [23:42] <Hixie> aah
  883. # [23:42] <Hixie> when reading anne's e-mail i had no idea that (a) we were talking about running JS and (b) we were talking about matching existing behaviour
  884. # [23:42] <Hixie> makes more sense now
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  886. # [23:42] <dbaron> Hixie, I'm not sure if the problem is the cssom-view spec's reference to the term or whether the term should be defined differently...
  887. # [23:43] <Hixie> so does gecko just fire these as soon as it can? i.e. it's a high priority task?
  888. # [23:43] <Hixie> or is there more subtlty?
  889. # [23:43] <Hixie> what happens if the callback causes it to change again, or can JS not trigger a media query change?
  890. # [23:44] <Hixie> oh, i see in your mail that you mention sometimes this happens synchronously
  891. # [23:44] <dbaron> what happens is that when things that can change media queries happen we post an event to the event queue saying that such things have happened (and then suppress other such events until that event fires)
  892. # [23:44] <jamesr> can you set media queries on iframes?
  893. # [23:44] <Hixie> not in the event loop at all
  894. # [23:44] <dbaron> then, *either* when that event fires *or* when we flush style
  895. # [23:44] <dbaron> we go through *all* of the media queries and see if they've actually changed
  896. # [23:44] <dbaron> and notify any of them that have
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  898. # [23:45] <Hixie> sounds like cssom needs to define all the places that "flush style" as calling this and emptying the media query change task queue
  899. # [23:45] <dbaron> the test I sent on the thread is interesting because between two lines in the script the mq was false
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  902. # [23:45] <jamesr> dbaron: is it possible for one handler to change the value of a later (or earlier) media query?
  903. # [23:45] <dbaron> Hixie, I'm not sure we really want to do that
  904. # [23:45] <Hixie> i thought you said it's what you _did_ do?
  905. # [23:45] <Hixie> as far as the event loop goes, if it's just that when tasks run they are high-priority, then the spec already supports that, just use a different task source
  906. # [23:45] <dbaron> yes, but we may change flushing in order to optimize
  907. # [23:45] <Hixie> ah
  908. # [23:45] <Hixie> well
  909. # [23:45] <dbaron> we want to flush as little as possible
  910. # [23:46] * Parts: richardschwerdtf (~RichS@99-39-114-91.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
  911. # [23:46] <Hixie> if it's running script, it needs to be interoperable, which means predictable, i.e. the spec has to say what all the UAs do
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  913. # [23:46] <jamesr> dbaron: and what about when you have to resolve styles synchronously due to some script action? is that separate from the 'flush style' step in gecko?
  914. # [23:46] <Hixie> which i think is incompatible with changing it
  915. # [23:46] <Hixie> anyway, long story short, sounds like this is all not my problem :-P
  916. # [23:47] <dbaron> jamesr, we accumulate all the changes to notify before sending any of them, so a change made in one listener doesn't affect who gets notified that pass, although the script could cause another flush and nest a new pass inside the outer one
  917. # [23:47] <dbaron> jamesr, and "flush styles" is what resolving styles synchronously due to a script action triggers
  918. # [23:48] <jamesr> ok. i think the webkit impl would (or possibly does, i haven't looked) be slightly different, then, although perhaps it's not observable
  919. # [23:51] * Joins: koskoz (koskoz@82.225.135.247)
  920. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> Hixie, what's the Bugzilla query you use for deciding the order of the bugs you look at? It might be helpful to put at <http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Bugzilla_conventions> so we can look it over and close some of the bugs if we get bored.
  921. # [23:53] <Hixie> i don't use bugzilla for that, i use my imap folders
  922. # [23:54] <Hixie> but it can be approximated to the sort order you get with "last change"
  923. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> Ah, okay.
  924. # [23:54] <Hixie> looks like the field is actually called "Changed" not "last change"
  925. # [23:54] <Hixie> but you get the idea
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  929. # Session Close: Fri Jun 24 00:00:00 2011

The end :)