/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jun 25 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [00:25] <Dashiva> The RDF data generated by microdata and RDFa processors is different both
  14. # [00:25] <Dashiva> for documents containing no additional data markup
  15. # [00:25] <Dashiva> I don't understand that sentence. If there's no additional markup, how is there microdata at all?
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  20. # [00:31] <zewt> they deployed forced autocomplete to encrypted.google : |
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  26. # [00:48] <roc> it's annoying that the people deploying Firefox to hundreds of thousands of intranet seats don't even have one person following our blogs or newsgroups enough to know about release cycle changes planned months in advance
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  28. # [00:49] <jcranmer> wait, you changed the release cycle? why am I only JUST NOW hearing about this?
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  30. # [00:51] <erlehmann> zewt, why so :|
  31. # [00:52] <Hixie> what is a "release"
  32. # [00:52] <Hixie> you mean "nightly"? :-)
  33. # [00:52] <erlehmann> roc, you need to have a charismatic person in a black turtleneck explaining it. also, do *not*, i repeat, do *not* answer properly to bug reports. also, fire everyone who leaks features of the next vers- OH WAIT :D
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  35. # [00:53] <jcranmer> erlehmann: you're fired
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  37. # [00:54] <roc> being CEO of Mozilla would be Steve Jobs' personal Hell
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  40. # [00:56] <erlehmann> roc, quick, just replace the speech bubbles in this one! <http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1344.gif>
  41. # [00:57] <Hixie> oh the tangled webs we weave
  42. # [00:57] <Hixie> "The textTracks attribute of media elements must return an array host object for objects of type TextTrack that is fixed length and read only."
  43. # [00:57] <Hixie> note that textTracks can vary in length and can have thigns added to it by user code (via another api)
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  45. # [00:58] <Hixie> is there a way I can have an interface inherit from Foo[] ?
  46. # [00:58] <Hixie> i want an object that acts just like an array, but has a selectedIndex attribute
  47. # [00:59] <erlehmann> enjoy your prototypal inheritance
  48. # [01:00] <Hixie> in webidl
  49. # [01:00] <Dashiva> Couldn't it be an array that also implements the SelectableIndex interface?
  50. # [01:00] <zewt> erlehmann: because google's autocomplete disables browser autocomplete, and I use browser autocomplete a lot
  51. # [01:01] <Hixie> man, the MediaStream videoTracks and audioTracks, the HTMLMediaElement videoTracks and audioTracks, and textTracks, are all annoyingly similar yet annoyingly different
  52. # [01:02] <zewt> Hixie: sounds like a typical case of where it'll become clear how to cleanly merge them--but only after using them for a while, at which point it's too late
  53. # [01:02] <Hixie> i think i might just end up having five different unrelated interfaces here for the lists, plus five different interfaces for the items
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  55. # [01:03] <zewt> at least in most development you're able to refactor after that period
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  57. # [01:07] <erlehmann> zewt, can't noscript solve your little problem? or a userscript? yes, i know, hackish. oh well.
  58. # [01:08] <zewt> greasemonkeying google search is sort of a losing battle, between the minification and the fact that it changes too often
  59. # [01:09] <erlehmann> noscript here. been nimped once too often.
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  67. # [01:35] <NickASloan> so, I was thinking that it might be good for the form attribute to work like the class attribute
  68. # [01:36] <NickASloan> in that you can specify multiple forms for an input to be associated with
  69. # [01:36] <NickASloan> <input type="text" form="form1Id form2Id">
  70. # [01:37] <NickASloan> though that wouldn't make sense for buttons
  71. # [01:37] <NickASloan> what would be the most sensible way to suggest that this issue be considered?
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  103. # [03:45] <heycam> Hixie, hi, no there's no way to do that atm. there was a bug to allow inheriting from Array.protoype, but I pushed it out to resolve later
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  107. # [03:52] <zewt> egh, what the
  108. # [03:52] <zewt> the "go" button in android's browser when inputting into a form doesn't submit the form, it sends an enter keystroke to the input element :|
  109. # [03:52] <zewt> wonder how I can distinguish that; that's terrible...
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  111. # [03:54] <erlehmann> zewt, what “go” button do you mean? screenshot?
  112. # [03:54] <Harpyon> Are anyone able to tell me what is wrong with this html5lib script? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/418698/
  113. # [03:54] <zewt> don't have DDMS set up right now to take a screenshot, but it's the button in the input method
  114. # [03:54] <erlehmann> ImportError: No module named html5lib
  115. # [03:54] <erlehmann> :P
  116. # [03:55] <Harpyon> Not even the most basic example works for me, so I tried replicating exactly what the example script does, and it still doesn't work :/
  117. # [03:55] <erlehmann> zewt, oh. i do not think i use that. physical keyboard and such.
  118. # [03:55] <zewt> just causing breakage on one of my pages since enter is actually closing a separate dialog--which is fine on desktop browsers, since you can see it, but on mobile browsers where the keyboard is often full-screen it's badly confusing ... may just need to browser sniff this one
  119. # [03:55] <erlehmann> right?
  120. # [03:55] <erlehmann> or am i misunterstanding?
  121. # [03:55] <zewt> virtual keyboard
  122. # [03:56] <erlehmann> good, i understand. my htc dream has a physical one.
  123. # [03:56] <zewt> had a G1 initially, but there's such a limited selection of phones with a keyboard that I gave up
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  125. # [03:58] <zewt> if it said "enter" or had the carriage-return icon then it'd make more sense, but "go" makes me think it means "submit the form"
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  131. # [04:06] <erlehmann> zewt, gave up? i'd buy one again if mine failed. on ebay or something.
  132. # [04:07] <erlehmann> the keyboard is just really nice compared to other stuff.
  133. # [04:07] <zewt> gave up waiting for a decent keyboardphone
  134. # [04:07] <erlehmann> what would be “decent”?
  135. # [04:08] <erlehmann> milestone etc have weird handling.
  136. # [04:08] <erlehmann> keys in a grid do not fit with me :/
  137. # [04:08] <zewt> on par with other phones
  138. # [04:08] <erlehmann> then go get an older phone :P
  139. # [04:08] <zewt> g2 is probably okay, i don't remember off-hand what put me off it
  140. # [04:09] <zewt> i don't need the keyboard enough to lock my choices into like one usable phone every three generations
  141. # [04:10] <erlehmann> hehe
  142. # [04:11] <erlehmann> but then i wonder what shiny new features could be there.
  143. # [04:11] <erlehmann> i am fine with web, irc, email, jabber.
  144. # [04:12] <erlehmann> probably missing out on the next big thing™
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  231. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> I made some updates to http://platform.html5.org/
  232. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> more suggestions welcome
  233. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> patches also welcome
  234. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/sideshowbarker/platform.html5.org
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  236. # [09:11] <mhausenblas> MikeSmith, looks good! Q: where is microdata?
  237. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> it's not there
  238. # [09:12] <mhausenblas> no, really? :)
  239. # [09:12] <mhausenblas> I mean, shouldn't it be ... in the light of Schema.org
  240. # [09:14] <mhausenblas> or, better say: why is it *not* there? pls. don't tell me because of the recent TAG decision :P
  241. # [09:15] <doublec> window 15
  242. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> irrssi user :)
  243. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> mhausenblas: my dog ate it
  244. # [09:15] <mhausenblas> bah
  245. # [09:16] <mhausenblas> MikeSmith, if I send in a pull request, will you accept it? :)
  246. # [09:17] <doublec> hehe
  247. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> I will accept any pull request for consideration
  248. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> I will not add stuff that is outside of the scope of the what's there now
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  250. # [09:17] <mhausenblas> where is the scope defined?
  251. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> it's not
  252. # [09:18] <mhausenblas> fair enough
  253. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> it needs to be inferred
  254. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> but there are some clues
  255. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> like the title of the page
  256. # [09:18] <mhausenblas> ouch, don't get me started w/ inference
  257. # [09:18] <mhausenblas> so?
  258. # [09:19] <mhausenblas> md (API) *is* a browser technology, no?
  259. # [09:19] <mhausenblas> in terms of http://foolip.org/microdatajs/ for example, I mean
  260. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> that's a script
  261. # [09:20] <mhausenblas> look, MikeSmith just tell me if you're interested in feedback and input or not - otherwise I happily go back to hacking on https://github.com/mhausenblas/school-explorer
  262. # [09:21] <mhausenblas> not that I want to waste your or my precious time :P
  263. # [09:22] * mhausenblas BRB - need some coffee and ciggy
  264. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> mhausenblas: I'm interested in genuine feedback but I'm not interested in turning the page into yet another venue for pissing battles over microdata vs RDFa
  265. # [09:22] <mhausenblas> oh come on - do I look like someone who does this?
  266. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> so what happens if I add microdata?
  267. # [09:22] * mhausenblas really needs coffee, in fact :)
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  269. # [09:23] <mhausenblas> then it's there
  270. # [09:23] <mhausenblas> why am I interested?
  271. # [09:23] <mhausenblas> easy: http://omnidator.appspot.com/
  272. # [09:23] <mhausenblas> and http://schema.rdfs.org/ obviously
  273. # [09:23] <mhausenblas> which depends on md
  274. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> looks like great stuff
  275. # [09:23] <mhausenblas> tx
  276. # [09:23] <mhausenblas> anyways
  277. # [09:24] <mhausenblas> 1. coffee 2. ciggy 3. return to IRC - TTYL
  278. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> hai
  279. # [09:25] <mhausenblas> just one more thing before I forget it (more a note to myself: shouldn't it be IRI rather than URI or at least *and* ... MikeSmith should know, living in JP ;)
  280. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> ah, true
  281. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> will change that
  282. # [09:26] <mhausenblas> ah, and one last before I really really run for coffee - would http://enable-cors.org/ be in scope?
  283. # [09:27] * MikeSmith looks
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  285. # [09:27] <mhausenblas> 'k
  286. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> I got CORS listed there already
  287. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> if you meant CORS itself
  288. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> doublec: btw, I think you can get to window 15 by typing 't'
  289. # [09:28] <mhausenblas> right (just was looking for CORS and didn't see the Cross-Origin Resource Sharing)
  290. # [09:28] <doublec> MikeSmith: yeah, alt+t
  291. # [09:29] <mhausenblas> anyways, might be useful re recipes/advocating
  292. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> mhausenblas: probably I should put the abbreviation too, for CORS
  293. # [09:29] <mhausenblas> +1
  294. # [09:29] <doublec> MikeSmith: sometimes I type it out for some weird reason
  295. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> doublec: yeah, me too
  296. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> but I have the plugin now that shows the mappings persistently, at the bottom of the window
  297. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> in the channel list before each of the channel names
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  299. # [09:33] <NickASloan> I think it makes sense that <input form=""> should support multiple forms, like the class attribute does. How do I suggest this in a way that might actually be heard?
  300. # [09:34] <Ms2ger> Start with use cases rather than solutions
  301. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> http://platform.html5.org looks best in Opera, due to Opera already supporting break-* properties with CSS multi-column
  302. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> if other browsers support it also but with vendor-prefixed property names, I would love to know what property names to use
  303. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> because nothing I tried seemed to work
  304. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> whoah
  305. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> Jon S. von Tetzchner resigned from Opera
  306. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> the news says
  307. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/24/opera-founder-jon-s-von-tetzchner-resigns-over-differences-with-board/
  308. # [09:53] <Ms2ger> If you're going to mention HTTP, what about cookies?
  309. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> OK
  310. # [09:55] * MikeSmith looks for abarth RFC
  311. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> I think that news story should say he quit the company completely
  312. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> because he had already resigned last year
  313. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> or at least resigned from leading the company
  314. # [09:56] <NickASloan> Ms2ger: I have a shopping cart page with an input for each item in my cart which allows me to update the quantity of that item. I have a form for each of these inputs that points to a script that saves the quantity of the item in my cart. I also have all of the inputs associated with a form that saves all of the quantity values (and possibly some other fields) and directs the user to a checkout page.
  315. # [09:57] <NickASloan> is that a reasonable enough use case?
  316. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> cookies are so un-sexy
  317. # [09:58] <Ms2ger> Sounds reasonable to me
  318. # [09:58] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, but tasty! :)
  319. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> heh
  320. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> anyway, added
  321. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> thanks
  322. # [10:02] <NickASloan> ticket created in bugzilla. Is there anything else I should do if I am serious about lobbying for this feature?
  323. # [10:02] <Ms2ger> NickASloan, patience ;)
  324. # [10:02] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988?
  325. # [10:03] <Ms2ger> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-websec-origin-02?
  326. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> do most browsers implement support for the Link header yet?
  327. # [10:03] <Ms2ger> They should ;)
  328. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> ok
  329. # [10:05] <NickASloan> Ms2ger: thanks for your help. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
  330. # [10:05] <Ms2ger> Np
  331. # [10:06] <Ms2ger> XMLNS, xml:base, DOM Traversal, DOM XPath?
  332. # [10:06] <Ms2ger> (I think I'm about done now)
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  336. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Traversal-Range/ is the latest for DOM Traversal?
  337. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> Yes
  338. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> OK
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  340. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> added along with others
  341. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> oh, forgot DOM XPath
  342. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I think I've now added all the ones you mentioned
  343. # [10:27] <Ms2ger> Ta
  344. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> thank you
  345. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> but let me know if I forgot anything
  346. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> or if you think of anything else to add
  347. # [10:28] <Ms2ger> Oh, the web sockets protocol, maybe
  348. # [10:28] <Ms2ger> But then I'm really done... For now :)
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  361. # [12:11] <annevk> oh Acid3
  362. # [12:15] <Ms2ger> Still useless?
  363. # [12:15] <annevk> it tests things we want to remove
  364. # [12:15] <annevk> and that is annoying
  365. # [12:19] <annevk> is toDataURL("image/webp") supported in browsers?
  366. # [12:19] <annevk> (just curious)
  367. # [12:19] <Philip`> Is <img src=whatever.webp> supported in any browsers?
  368. # [12:20] <annevk> Chrome/Opera, no?
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  372. # [12:35] <matjas> I have another question regarding the ETAGO delimiter in <style> and <script> elements
  373. # [12:35] <matjas> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#tokenization
  374. # [12:37] <matjas> From testing in browsers with an HTML5 parser, it seems that just `</style` within a <style> element doesn’t close the element. Only `</style>` does.
  375. # [12:38] <matjas> E.g. `</style foo>` following an opening <style> tag doesn’t close the <style> element.
  376. # [12:38] <matjas> However, with <script>s it does. <script></script foo> will close the <script> element.
  377. # [12:39] <matjas> Why is there a difference? Any pointers?
  378. # [12:39] <annevk> </style foo> does close it
  379. # [12:39] <annevk> at least in Opera/Firefox
  380. # [12:41] <matjas> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3Ebody%3A%3Abefore%20{%20content%3A%20'%3C%2Fstyle'%3B%20}%20still%20not%20closed%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0Alolwat
  381. # [12:41] <matjas> perhaps I’m testing wrong
  382. # [12:42] <matjas> annevk: ^
  383. # [12:44] <Philip`> The </style needs to be followed by a space or / or >, according to HTML5
  384. # [12:44] <Philip`> not '
  385. # [12:44] <Philip`> s/a space/whitespace/
  386. # [12:48] <matjas> a “space character”
  387. # [12:49] <matjas> Philip`: where does it say that?
  388. # [12:50] <matjas> (Couldn’t find that myself)
  389. # [12:50] <Philip`> <style> is RAWTEXT so it reaches http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#rawtext-end-tag-name-state
  390. # [12:53] <matjas> how is that different from this example? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.write('%3C%2Fscript')%3B%20alert('not%20closed')%3B%3C%2Fscript%3E%0Alolwat
  391. # [12:54] <matjas> oh wait, it’s not.
  392. # [12:54] <matjas> that doesn’t close the element either
  393. # [12:54] <Philip`> That does the same, though your document.write ends up eating the lolwat
  394. # [12:55] <matjas> yeah
  395. # [12:56] <matjas> thanks for clarifying!
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  398. # [13:00] <matjas> so `</style>`, `</style/` or `<style%WHITESPACE%` would close an open <style> element, everything else doesn’t. Same for <script>. Correct?
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  400. # [13:01] <matjas> where %WHITESPACE% is tab, LF, FF, or a space
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  402. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> Or CR
  403. # [13:02] <matjas> was just about to ask
  404. # [13:02] <matjas> CR is the only “space character” that isn’t mentioned there
  405. # [13:02] <matjas> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#rawtext-end-tag-name-state
  406. # [13:03] <matjas> why not?
  407. # [13:03] <Philip`> matjas: Not quite the same for <script>, since it has special cases for <script><!-- </script> --></script> or something like that
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  409. # [13:03] <annevk> matjas, isn't CR already normalized away at that point?
  410. # [13:04] * Philip` forgets what exactly is currently specced
  411. # [13:04] <matjas> annevk: oh, that might explain it
  412. # [13:04] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/parsing.html#preprocessing-the-input-stream gets rid of CR
  413. # [13:04] <matjas> Philip`: wait, what?
  414. # [13:05] <Philip`> ?
  415. # [13:05] <matjas> I don’t see how <script><!-- </script> --></script> is special
  416. # [13:06] <Philip`> It's special due to backward compatibility
  417. # [13:06] <matjas> v.nu to the rescue: http://i.imgur.com/IN6Lg.png
  418. # [13:06] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/scripting-1.html#restrictions-for-contents-of-script-elements says where you're allowed to put </script> inside a script
  419. # [13:06] <Philip`> in a perfectly clear and understandable fashion
  420. # [13:07] <matjas> DOMception :(
  421. # [13:10] <annevk> is that an inception joke?
  422. # [13:10] <annevk> haven't seen that one on reddit thus far
  423. # [13:11] <matjas> So <script><!-- document.write("<script>alert('WAT')</script>") --></script> is conforming
  424. # [13:11] <matjas> but <script>document.write("<script>alert('WAT')</script>")</script> isn’t
  425. # [13:11] <matjas> interesting
  426. # [13:14] <Philip`> The <!--..--> thing is an evil hack so it's best not to rely on it
  427. # [13:17] <matjas> TIL validator.nu accepts data URLs
  428. # [13:17] <matjas> why didn’t you guys tell me?!
  429. # [13:18] <Philip`> Why do you want them?
  430. # [13:20] <matjas> useful for quick testing, e.g. http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=data%3Atext%2Fhtml%3Bcharset%3Dutf-8%2C%3Cscript%3E%3C!--%2520document.write(%22lol%3Cscript%3Ealert('WAT')%3C%2Fscript%3E%22)%2520--%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E
  431. # [13:21] * matjas ♥ hsivonen
  432. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> You know there's a text field as well, right?
  433. # [13:23] <matjas> Ms2ger: I do
  434. # [13:24] <matjas> It’s just that I often use data URLs to create quick test cases like the one above
  435. # [13:25] <matjas> from there it’s only a few keystrokes to validate™ it, apparently
  436. # [13:25] <matjas> sweet
  437. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> I added an "HTML bonus features" category to http://platform.html5.org/ -- to highlight APIs that are part of the HTML spec that merit special mention
  438. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> if there's anything else I should add in that category, let me know
  439. # [13:34] <erlehmann> the only DOMception joke i can think of involves styling the shadow DOM – we need to go deeper!
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  442. # [13:47] <matjas> erlehmann: <iframe>
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  444. # [13:51] <matjas> okay, I’m still trying to make sense of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/scripting-1.html#restrictions-for-contents-of-script-elements (but failing)
  445. # [13:52] <matjas> Why is <script><!-- <script></script> --></script> conforming, knowing that <script><!-- </script> --></script> isn’t?
  446. # [13:53] <Philip`> The aim was to do the least crazy thing that doesn't break the web
  447. # [13:53] <Philip`> Unfortunately "least crazy" does not mean "not crazy"
  448. # [13:53] <matjas> I mean, where does the spec say that?
  449. # [13:54] <matjas> inb4 learn2ABNF
  450. # [13:54] <Philip`> Oh, I've never tried to actually understand the spec
  451. # [13:55] <matjas> :')
  452. # [14:02] <matjas> well if anyone can explain, that would be great
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  454. # [14:20] <gsnedders> matjas: The former doesn't throw a parse-error, the latter does. So it says that in the tokenizer.
  455. # [14:21] <matjas> gsnedders: so, somewhere in here? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html
  456. # [14:22] <matjas> Let me just double my IQ and try to read that
  457. # [14:23] <The_8472> it's just a state machine
  458. # [14:24] <The_8472> script probably triggers a different parsing mode (it has to). then look at what that parsing mode does
  459. # [14:27] <Philip`> See the 17 "script data" states
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  462. # [14:51] <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13057 , for your enjoyment
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  514. # [18:40] <annevk> whoa, is this the first time a non-regular posts a change proposal?
  515. # [18:40] <annevk> at least I never saw that name before, but maybe I'm missing something
  516. # [18:41] <annevk> Ms2ger, no joy here
  517. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> Hmm?
  518. # [18:41] <annevk> that bug report
  519. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> Oh
  520. # [18:42] <llrcombs> What are the thoughts here on Microsoft's accusations that WebGL causes security issues? Do we believe that the security of WebGL is strictly implementation-dependent, or that it really does need its security improved?
  521. # [18:43] <Dashiva> Has Microsoft released anything describing how Silverlight avoids the same problems?
  522. # [18:43] <annevk> llrcombs, http://www.realityprime.com/articles/why-microsoft-and-internet-explorer-need-webgl
  523. # [18:43] <annevk> llrcombs, Microsoft will do WebGL
  524. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> Dashiva, they don't
  525. # [18:44] <charlvn> it's clear this is all about a conflict of interest
  526. # [18:44] <charlvn> sure there are issues but these can be bridged just like any other
  527. # [18:44] <llrcombs> OK, but do we think that there are actual security issues, or was it just M$ spewing bullshit in an attempt to convince us that it could get out of the work of adding WebGL?
  528. # [18:44] <annevk> I guess we could do as Hixie suggested and infer the interface from where the constructor was called. But I also kind of like that now it is explicit...
  529. # [18:45] <charlvn> microsoft has been trying to monopolise the web for years and silverlight is their latest effort
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  531. # [18:45] <annevk> llrcombs, there are issues, but it is not inherently insecure
  532. # [18:45] <llrcombs> OK, but definitely fixable problems then
  533. # [18:46] * karlcow wonders which change proposal annevk is talking about
  534. # [18:46] <llrcombs> so just M$ attempting to convince us that it shouldn't have to make WebGL in IE
  535. # [18:46] <charlvn> it's unclear whether this could be used for anything other than a *potential* DoS
  536. # [18:46] <llrcombs> karlcow: <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13057 , for your enjoyment
  537. # [18:46] <charlvn> steve gibson briefly spoke about this on a recent episode of security now
  538. # [18:46] <llrcombs> what, against a server?
  539. # [18:46] <charlvn> no against a client desktop
  540. # [18:47] <charlvn> by sending the GPU into a type of infinite loop or something similar
  541. # [18:47] <annevk> karlcow, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jun/0387.html
  542. # [18:47] <karlcow> ah Daniel Glazman proposing to drop ins/del in favor of attributes
  543. # [18:47] <llrcombs> heh
  544. # [18:47] <llrcombs> well, no real point of that, is there?
  545. # [18:47] <charlvn> but that was the only legit concern i have heard and i'm sure a problem that can easily be bridged
  546. # [18:47] <charlvn> other than being malicious and irritating, no
  547. # [18:47] <llrcombs> I agree, by the way, with <ins> and <del> needing replacement
  548. # [18:47] <charlvn> nothing a restart can't fix :)
  549. # [18:48] <karlcow> the issue for me with ins and del is that they do not reflect the reality of editing aka overlapping markup structures without logical nesting.
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  551. # [18:48] <annevk> bah, I don't have http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0881.html in my inbox
  552. # [18:48] <annevk> oh wait, that is from 2010
  553. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> Oh, it is
  554. # [18:49] * Ms2ger didn't realize either
  555. # [18:49] <annevk> I don't think I ever replied though
  556. # [18:49] <karlcow> <p>foo <del> bar </p> <p> blablabla </del> foof bar blalal </p> is a common case of editing. But not sure it is feasible without complicating a lot the parsers
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  562. # [18:51] <annevk> Ms2ger, so it seems to me HTTP ought to say what is right here, not XMLHttpRequest
  563. # [18:51] <annevk> I have not checked up on HTTP, but I believe the request is simply to be repeated
  564. # [18:53] <llrcombs> charlvn: reminds me of while(alert("BWAHAHAHA")){}
  565. # [18:53] <charlvn> yep
  566. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> annevk, I should make it clear that I don't care about XHR ;)
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  568. # [18:55] <llrcombs> query to everybody: does WebGL stuff get terminated when the browser window/tab gets closed?
  569. # [18:57] <llrcombs> also: is there anything to be done to evade the evil while(alert()){}?
  570. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> Have a "stop running scripts from this page" on alerts?
  571. # [18:58] <annevk> Ms2ger, FFFFFUUUU
  572. # [18:58] <llrcombs> hmm, that could be a partial solution
  573. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> annevk, :(
  574. # [18:58] <llrcombs> but then if it was while(1){alert();}, it'd still be an endless loop
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  579. # [19:06] <Dashiva> llrcombs: It would halt the entire script
  580. # [19:07] <Dashiva> Besides, all sensible browsers have tab-local alerts nowadays ;)
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  582. # [19:14] <annevk> if anyone is looking to waste some time
  583. # [19:14] <annevk> Game of Thrones is a pretty awesome show
  584. # [19:14] <annevk> especially in HD
  585. # [19:18] <Dashiva> It doesn't come in German until winter months, and nobody's going to show a non-dubbed show in Switzerland
  586. # [19:18] <Ms2ger> Oh, I thought you'd suggest reading IETF mail
  587. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> Sean Bean is a god
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  589. # [19:20] <annevk> Ms2ger, :p
  590. # [19:20] <Dashiva> I think you typeod Neil Patrick Harris there, MikeSmith
  591. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> *I* think he typoed Douglas Adams
  592. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> Sean Bean looks better thsn tgem naked than
  593. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> wonderful typing experience on the iPad
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  602. # [20:20] <annevk> MikeSmith, @html5 still under your control? last tweet is fun
  603. # [20:24] <annevk> glazou "the current HTML5 Last Call Working Draft - that does not reach at all the quality of other LCWD in the W3C and did not meet the basic requirements for a LCWD in the W3C Process"
  604. # [20:24] <annevk> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2011/06/25/Why-html5-elements-INS-and-DEL-suck
  605. # [20:24] <annevk> I guess he doesn't read many LCWD
  606. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> Yeah, he's been repeating that to himself ever since it was published
  607. # [20:26] <hober> annevk: yeah, GoT was really well done
  608. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: @html5 not exclusively under my control, no. red guards have taken over. let a hundred flowers bloom
  609. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> Forked, if you will
  610. # [20:29] <annevk> In his bug report he also mentions something about HTML4 errata... I wonder if he really still believes in HTML4...
  611. # [20:30] <annevk> Maybe the simplest is for me to not care and prepare for this concert thingie
  612. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> He believes in longdesc, at least
  613. # [20:33] <annevk> I wonder if he realizes that attributes does not solve table editing
  614. # [20:38] <karlcow> annevk: before that, I wonder if the current ins/del solve anything except stylistic effect for the fun of editing. I do not remember to have seen them used in a programmatic way. Just curious.
  615. # [20:39] * MikeSmith googles "plausible deniability" … for some reason
  616. # [20:39] <annevk> diveintomark.org once had revisions for blog posts annotated with <del> / <ins>
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  618. # [20:40] <karlcow> annevk: yup, but was it automatic? Ah maybe when mark was tracking changes on Daver Winer blog
  619. # [20:41] <annevk> no for his own blog, and yes they were automatically down, via some script from iirc Aaron Swartz
  620. # [20:41] <karlcow> s/down/done/
  621. # [20:41] <annevk> in the MovableType days
  622. # [20:41] <karlcow> aaah :)
  623. # [20:42] <Philip`> <style>del { color: black; background: black; }</style> let you use it for redactions when publishing secret documents, which seems to be a common desire
  624. # [20:42] <annevk> holy shit Opera supports multiple columns
  625. # [20:43] <annevk> in my 11.11 build
  626. # [20:43] * annevk did not know
  627. # [20:43] <karlcow> mwahaha
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  630. # [20:44] <karlcow> annevk: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/css3-multi-column-layout/
  631. # [20:44] <karlcow> example by dstorey http://people.opera.com/dstorey/multi-column/multicolumn-article.html
  632. # [20:44] <krijnh> annevk: howcome told about that in his Fronteers 2010 talk, no?
  633. # [20:45] <annevk> I knew we were implementing
  634. # [20:46] <annevk> Did not know we shipped it already
  635. # [20:46] <krijnh> Ah ok
  636. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> annevk: opera columns support is better than any other UA as far I have found so far
  637. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> so cheers to whoever at opera implemented that
  638. # [20:49] <othermaciej_> annevk: he's bitter about XHTML2 WG dropping HTML4 errata feedback on the floor, and somehow thinks the current HTML WG should be aware of it and should be processing it
  639. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> annevk: (though I have my own guess who)
  640. # [20:51] <annevk> othermaciej_, yeah... I'm not even sure that was an errata item, would have been nice if he had some pointers so we could read up on some history that is no longer relevant, but potentially interesting
  641. # [20:51] <othermaciej_> I'm glad glazou filed a bug at least, the first time he raised his INS/DEL issue was in the LC survey
  642. # [20:51] <annevk> MikeSmith, pretty sure it was Morten
  643. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> yeah
  644. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> well cheers to Morten
  645. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> Opera has some really exceptional devs
  646. # [20:53] <Ms2ger> Hey, so do we! ;)
  647. # [20:53] <MikeSmith> I hope the Opera board understands what they got. but I suppose I should shut up about that
  648. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: of course :(
  649. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> * :)
  650. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> (I meant)
  651. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> but opera market share is nothing, so who gives a shit about Opera, right?
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  653. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> I mean that is what I hear from folks like Amy Hoy and Asa
  654. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> so I trust that
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  656. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> Maybe Asa would be happier if the enterprise moved to Opera
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  658. # [21:15] <karlcow> hihi
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  667. # [22:11] <karlcow> not a day without a drama
  668. # [22:12] <charlvn> karlcow: which drama?
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  678. # [22:51] * Quits: Stikk (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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  681. # [23:27] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@nat76.mia.three.co.uk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  682. # [23:31] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.69)
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  686. # [23:55] * Quits: boogyman (~Capodecin@cpe-72-184-192-77.tampabay.res.rr.com) (Changing host)
  687. # [23:55] * Joins: boogyman (~Capodecin@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  688. # Session Close: Sun Jun 26 00:00:00 2011

The end :)