/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-27 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  69. # [03:09] <Yuhong> on script elements, Netscape once suggested this to hide from older browsers: <script><!-- ... <!-- --></script>
  70. # [03:09] <Yuhong> Of course, one problem is how -- inside a comment work in SGML.
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  113. # [07:09] <annevk> the plot thickens
  114. # [07:19] <karlcow> then the slick top
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  120. # [08:07] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I think you WONTFIX rationale for bug 13057 sucks.
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  122. # [08:07] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: saying they don't serve a common need as a reason to *keep* them???
  123. # [08:08] <hsivonen> *your
  124. # [08:09] <annevk> that bug makes me long for TPAC
  125. # [08:09] <hsivonen> annevk: why?
  126. # [08:10] <annevk> in a sarcastic way
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  128. # [08:11] <annevk> lots of bitching about HTML by people who have not participated in years
  129. # [08:15] <othermaciej> hsivonen: seems like a plausible reason not to replace them
  130. # [08:15] <othermaciej> otoh you could argue that the use case is still valid and the rarity of use just shows the bad design
  131. # [08:17] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it could be used as an argument for removing them and not providing a replacement
  132. # [08:17] <annevk> I don't understand why he can't have "block" and "inline" level delete and insertion in his editor
  133. # [08:17] <hsivonen> othermaciej: doesn't make sense as a reason to keep them
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  135. # [08:17] <annevk> he seems to think UI and markup has to match 1:1
  136. # [08:17] <annevk> which strikes me as odd for a WYSIWYG editor
  137. # [08:18] <hsivonen> I'm inclined to think HTML shouldn't try to track deletions
  138. # [08:22] <annevk> so what if you want to publish how a document was redacted?
  139. # [08:22] <othermaciej> hsivonen: what do you think is the correct resolution? drop entirely with no replacement?
  140. # [08:23] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I'd do the following:
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  142. # [08:23] <hsivonen> 1) Define <ins> as inline-only and a synonym for <u>
  143. # [08:23] <hsivonen> 2) Define <del> as inline-only and a synonym of <s>
  144. # [08:24] <hsivonen> 3) Introduce an attribute that takes a list of edit entries that contain a time stamp and an optional user identifier
  145. # [08:24] <hsivonen> and indicates that the text was added by that user at that time
  146. # [08:25] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe it shouldn't take a list
  147. # [08:26] <hsivonen> anyway, dropping <ins> and <del> even as inline underline and strike markup would annoy a lot of people who use them manually on blogs as inline-only
  148. # [08:26] <hsivonen> and <del> across blocks sucks badly and is rarely used
  149. # [08:26] <othermaciej> removing their semantics would likely also annoy people
  150. # [08:27] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yeah, maybe
  151. # [08:27] <hsivonen> othermaciej: maybe the right thing is to make them inline-only and add attributes that you can put on any element
  152. # [08:27] <othermaciej> for the sort of people who bother to use them, anyway
  153. # [08:27] <hsivonen> othermaciej: anyway, <del> as block sucks big time
  154. # [08:27] <othermaciej> what is the difficulty with using them at block level?
  155. # [08:27] <hsivonen> and isn't really used by anyone, AFAICT
  156. # [08:28] <hsivonen> othermaciej: even without glazou's wysiwyg case, in the block case you'd want to style them based on the blockness of their content
  157. # [08:29] <othermaciej> I see, so they either need a special class or you need non-existing inside-out selectors
  158. # [08:29] <hsivonen> othermaciej: and if they are rarely used, it doesn't make sense to design and engineer a solution that'd make the block duality nature not suck
  159. # [08:30] <othermaciej> anyway if you disagree with Aryeh's rationale, you could reopen the bug and let Hixie sort it out
  160. # [08:30] <hsivonen> ok
  161. # [08:31] <annevk> how would you address the styling problem with attributes?
  162. # [08:32] <annevk> note also that the Selector problem is being solved
  163. # [08:32] <othermaciej> your selector could look at the element and the attribute
  164. # [08:32] <hsivonen> annevk: the problem of being able to select on the computed style of children?
  165. # [08:32] <annevk> I mean what would be a good way to style it
  166. # [08:32] <annevk> default-style wise
  167. # [08:33] <hsivonen> annevk: for stuff that's display:block; border-right or outline-right
  168. # [08:34] <othermaciej> you'd need different default rules for different elements depending on their default display type
  169. # [08:34] <othermaciej> but there'd be no way for that to update automatically if someone restyles an element to a different display type
  170. # [08:35] <annevk> Is the mean reason for transferring ArrayBuffer rather than cloning preserving memory?
  171. # [08:35] <othermaciej> I presume the reason is performance
  172. # [08:36] <othermaciej> you don't want to incur the cost of a copy each time you transfer cross-thread
  173. # [08:36] <othermaciej> and you don't want to use copy-on-write since that adds cost to every write, even when not using threads
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  179. # [09:00] <zewt> othermaciej: copy-on-write makes reusing buffers efficiently hard, iirc
  180. # [09:01] <zewt> eg. video double-buffering
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  184. # [09:05] <annevk> thanks othermaciej
  185. # [09:05] <othermaciej> zewt: yeah, and there are probably also good cases for creating a buffer on the main thread, passing it to a Worker, modifying it in-place in the Worker, and passing it back
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  187. # [09:06] * zcorpan put Hixie's bookmarklets as in-page links with userjs
  188. # [09:06] <zcorpan> hmm, i should have a link for FIXED as well, for the differences doc
  189. # [09:06] <annevk> oh sweet, you'll continue editing that?
  190. # [09:08] <zcorpan> yeah
  191. # [09:09] <zcorpan> except in july
  192. # [09:10] <annevk> cool
  193. # [09:11] <annevk> guess I owe bratell a beer
  194. # [09:11] <annevk> well, and you
  195. # [09:11] <annevk> :)
  196. # [09:14] <zcorpan> i was thinking of switching to anolis for it
  197. # [09:14] <zcorpan> to get xspec xrefs
  198. # [09:14] <zcorpan> how do i do that?
  199. # [09:16] <annevk> better to ask Ms2ger
  200. # [09:16] <annevk> I have not got that to work yet
  201. # [09:16] <annevk> I want to switch all my specs too
  202. # [09:17] <annevk> xsxr would be so great
  203. # [09:17] <annevk> Ms2ger has some instructions on https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core (see bottom) but I did not get Anolis properly installed
  204. # [09:18] <annevk> I suspect jgraham can help you out if you are in the office
  205. # [09:18] <zcorpan> btw i love new Event('foo')
  206. # [09:18] <zcorpan> unsursprisingly :)
  207. # [09:18] <zcorpan> will be in an hour
  208. # [09:22] <zcorpan> can you transfer an object back and forth with postMessage?
  209. # [09:22] <annevk> for WHATWG Weekly I have spec/whatwg mailing list summary + dom core + new approach exceptions
  210. # [09:22] <annevk> zcorpan, since http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6272&to=6273 you can do it for MessagePort
  211. # [09:23] <annevk> should I cover anything else in the weekly?
  212. # [09:23] <annevk> nothing much happened last week but maybe I misremember?
  213. # [09:24] <zcorpan> yah i'm reading that. it says once you transfer an object you can't transer it again. wondered if it means that you can't transfer it *back* (or further) on the receiving side
  214. # [09:24] <zewt> zcorpan: the transfer api could be used to transfer other complex objects, eventually
  215. # [09:24] <annevk> zcorpan, not being able to transfer it back would be weird
  216. # [09:24] <zcorpan> indeed
  217. # [09:25] <annevk> oh, maybe there is just data equality but not object equality?
  218. # [09:26] <annevk> so you would have a new object when you transfer it back that holds the same data in memory?
  219. # [09:26] <zewt> yeah, transferring back doesn't "repopulate" the old object or anything
  220. # [09:27] <zcorpan> makes sense
  221. # [09:27] <annevk> anyway, nothing?
  222. # [09:27] <annevk> should I mention the Editorial Assistents?
  223. # [09:27] <zewt> havn't looked over the new spec language yet but the general idea is that transfer is indistinguishable from structured clone, from the perspective of the receiver
  224. # [09:27] <annevk> I guess I should mention the timeline othermaciej posted
  225. # [09:28] <zewt> (eg. a postMessage might be received by more than one receiver, in which case it's forced to clone anyway)
  226. # [09:28] <zewt> (iirc--still need to look over the spec language, too)
  227. # [09:29] <zcorpan> annevk: assistants seems mentionworthy
  228. # [09:30] <zcorpan> zewt: it'd throw if you try to transfer it twice
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  231. # [09:33] <zcorpan> i think
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  234. # [09:54] <annevk> I wish my German was better
  235. # [09:54] <annevk> http://muenz.wordpress.com/2011/02/25/der-lange-abschied-vom-„toten“-standard/
  236. # [09:54] <annevk> Also, I posted http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-event-constructors just now
  237. # [09:55] <annevk> Not that any of you ever give feedback, but I keep trying :)
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  245. # [10:02] <hsivonen> annevk: based on Google translate, the German article doesn't seem positive
  246. # [10:02] <annevk> RDF, Semantic Web, Web 3.0, Linked Data
  247. # [10:02] <annevk> RDF/XML, N3, Turtle, RDFa
  248. # [10:02] <annevk> rebranding and resyntaxing forever and ever, to no avail
  249. # [10:02] * Quits: niftylettuce (~niftylett@c-98-236-192-160.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  250. # [10:03] <annevk> hsivonen, my Google translate was fairly positive
  251. # [10:03] <annevk> :)
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  254. # [10:08] <annevk> Microdata follows RDFa in that list I guess
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  256. # [10:09] <zcorpan> what's after microdata?
  257. # [10:10] <zcorpan> RDFa 2.0?
  258. # [10:10] <annevk> I'm sure we'll find out
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  260. # [10:13] <zcorpan> maybe RDFb
  261. # [10:13] <zcorpan> "RDF bastards"
  262. # [10:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that's not nice
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  269. #
  270. # [BEEP! ZOMG, somebody stole the network!]
  271. #
  272. # 09:31 < annevk> EUR 0.16 per MiB, does not work abroad. http://www.kpn.com/prive/mobiel/aanbiedingen/nieuw-in-nederland/chromebook.htm Chromebook is going to be a huge success.
  273. # 09:32 -!- chriseppstein [~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: chriseppstein]
  274. # 09:33 < othermaciej> but.. but… the cloud!
  275. # 09:34 < annevk> It is time someone takes over the provider market the way Apple took over the phone market
  276. # 09:37 < annevk> I watched that 1997 closing note by Steve Jobs gruber linked to and in it he makes quite a nice point. That there is so much opportunity not necessarily to innovate, but to improve existing services and products a whole lot. Applies perfectly here, except that the startup costs are like way high compared to software :/
  277. # 09:38 -!- mpt [~mpt@83.141.95.158] has joined #whatwg
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  280. # 09:38 < annevk> (He also goes on and on how Apple should license their software and allow people to compete with Apple on hardware.)
  281. # 09:39 < othermaciej> you can get a good deal on data plans for iDevices but not for Apple laptops yet
  282. # 09:40 < othermaciej> I thought Apple was already licensing their software and letting people compete on hardware in '97, and stopped as soon as SJ was in charge
  283. # 09:40 < annevk> The hardware had to be bought from Apple or some such? Not sure, he wanted to change the way that was done...
  284. # 09:41 < annevk> I am quite surprised there is no SIM-slot in my MacBook Air
  285. # 09:42 < annevk> But data plans for e.g. the iPhone suck when I go abroad
  286. # 09:42 < annevk> Within the Netherlands it is okay, but I travel a lot...
  287. # 09:43 < othermaciej> no, there used to be non-Apple vendors selling Apple hardware
  288. # 09:43 < othermaciej> er, not Apple hardware
  289. # 09:44 < othermaciej> but Mac-compatible hardware
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  300. # 10:12 < gsnedders> othermaciej: It wasn't quite straight away, it was they stopped licensing Mac OS as of 8.0 for the clones.
  301. # 10:13 < othermaciej> it was a little before I joined Apple so I don't necessarily remember the details
  302. # 10:18 < annevk> Maybe Web IDL should define "initialize" so specifications can "initialize" attributes whereas authors can set them (and maybe sometimes specifications need to set them too)
  303. # 10:20 < hsivonen> othermaciej: if one is to believe what a Finnish operator says, Apple requires the data plans for iPad to suck equally all over the world
  304. # 10:21 < hsivonen> othermaciej: their data plans were already uncapped and they say Apple wanted them to add a capped plan in order to sell iPad
  305. # 10:21 < hsivonen> and they said no
  306. # 10:23 < othermaciej> I have no idea about that stuff
  307. # 10:23 < annevk> iPhone sells here without cap, no idea about iPad
  308. # 10:23 < othermaciej> the Verizon data plan for my iPad 2 in the US is just fine
  309. # 10:24 < hsivonen> I find it slightly stressful that I have no idea how close I am to the data cap of my German prepaid
  310. # 10:24 < hsivonen> (capped at 200 MB per month)
  311. # 10:25 < hsivonen> it would really suck to reach the cap when I have an acute use case for Google Maps going on
  312. # 10:26 < othermaciej> that would suck
  313. # 10:31 < othermaciej> bug resolve rate on Hixie-edited drafts over the past 4 weeks: 18, 19, 50, 81
  314. # 10:35 < othermaciej> incoming over the past week is 44, so I believe outgoing now exceeds incoming by a healthy margin
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  333. # 11:20 < nessy> wow, that's quite some bug replying rate there!
  334. # 11:21 < nessy> a few that I saw were by co-editors, so maybe that is starting to have an effect
  335. # 11:22 -!- linclark [~clark@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie] has joined #whatwg
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  347. # 11:48 < karlcow> annevk: typo in "Earlier Maciej also posted on editorial assistents that will help Ian out with dealing with the Last Call feedback."
  348. # 11:48 < karlcow> assitants in http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-event-constructors
  349. # 11:49 < karlcow> also "WHATWG develops a parellel edition"
  350. # 11:50 < karlcow> * parallel
  351. # 11:58 -!- _jgr [~jgr@CPE-124-185-195-126.lns6.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #whatwg
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  375. # 12:57 < karlcow> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=553888
  376. # 12:57 < karlcow> "Additional XHR request after Redirect response doesn't forward non standard headers" FIXED
  377. # 12:59 < hsivonen> roc: btw, regarding the IRC log: I wouldn't blame the IBM CIO for not having someone follow Mozilla blogs about EOL when the main Mozilla blog is silent about EOL.
  378. # 13:00 < roc> I was thinking dev.planning
  379. # 13:00 < hsivonen> roc: OK. I still don't get it why a major change like this didn't go on the official blog. :-(
  380. # 13:01 < roc> oh I agree
  381. # 13:01 -!- MikeSmith [~mikesmith@EM111-188-146-116.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #whatwg
  382. # 13:02 < roc> blame is not a zero-sum game
  383. # 13:02 -!- annevk [~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #whatwg
  384. # 13:02 < Ms2ger> Still a fun game ;)
  385. # 13:03 < gsnedders> Is there anything in the DOM with a custom toSring impl?
  386. # 13:03 < annevk> hmm, krijn?!
  387. # 13:03 < annevk> krijn, offline again?
  388. # 13:03 < Ms2ger> gsnedders, Selection, a elements, location?
  389. # 13:04 < krijn> Yeah, no idea what's wrong
  390. # 13:04 < krijn> Sigh
  391. # 13:05 < gsnedders> Ms2ger: Okay, so nothing as evil as Date. (Which touches external state when getting.)
  392. # 13:06 < Ms2ger> Nothing is as evil as Date, period :)
  393. # 13:06 -!- mpt [~mpt@canonical/mpt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
  394. # 13:08 < annevk> yay, time to rewrite the event chapter once again
  395. # 13:09 -!- pesla [u2429@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lhdaxmusacnynisi] has joined #whatwg
  396. # 13:10 < bga_> annevk btw. not {new Event(alot of args >_<)}. {var e = new Event(); e.target = foo; e.x = bar} imho
  397. # 13:10 < bga_> argless creation, post fill
  398. # 13:11 -!- linclark [~clark@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie] has quit [Quit: linclark]
  399. # 13:11 < krijn> annevk: connection here sucks atm :/
  400. # 13:11 -!- jeremyselier [~Jeremy@92.103.127.226] has joined #whatwg
  401. # 13:11 < annevk> bga_, you can just do
  402. # 13:12 < annevk> obj = {}; obj.target = foo; obj.x = bar; var e = new Event("yay", obj)
  403. # 13:12 < annevk> same thing
  404. # 13:13 < bga_> not so pure but ok
  405. # 13:13 -!- maikmerten [~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
  406. # 13:14 < Ms2ger> Purity on the web? Ha. Ha. Ha.
  407. # 13:14 < bga_> annevk my approach is fully based on setters/getters
  408. # 13:15 < bga_> some "options" hash table arg is bad imho
  409. # 13:15 < annevk> zcorpan suggested the same thing
  410. # 13:15 < annevk> it requires making readonly attributes read-write
  411. # 13:15 < bga_> look like jq plugin :(
  412. # 13:15 < annevk> and only sometimes readonly
  413. # 13:16 < annevk> and dictionary-style APIs are introduced all over so it made sense to do that
  414. # 13:16 < bga_> annevk heh. not r/w and r/o
  415. # 13:17 < bga_> just mutable and immutable state
  416. # 13:17 < bga_> foo.onclick = function(e /* immutable */)
  417. # 13:17 < bga_> var e = Event() /* mutable */
  418. # 13:18 < annevk> sure, I get that
  419. # 13:19 < bga_> i know that ES does not differ immutable and mutable state on spec level
  420. # 13:19 < bga_> but you can emualte
  421. # 13:20 -!- quip [~quip@CPE-124-191-48-2.wzlh2.win.bigpond.net.au] has joined #whatwg
  422. # 13:20 < bga_> splitting interface to 2 intefaces, mutable inherits immutable
  423. # 13:23 -!- charlvn [~charlvn@41.0.48.54] has joined #whatwg
  424. # 13:24 < Ms2ger> And what's the gain for developers?
  425. # 13:25 < bga_> stricter safer oop
  426. # 13:27 < karlcow> annevk: there are typos in the blog post
  427. # 13:27 < Ms2ger> Excuse me?
  428. # 13:27 < karlcow> the weekly summary
  429. # 13:27 < annevk> karlcow, what are they?
  430. # 13:27 < karlcow> I put them on irc before you arrived but I can't access krijn right now
  431. # 13:27 < karlcow> let me try to find them
  432. # 13:28 < krijn> Yeah, I'm just not that open, sorry
  433. # 13:28 < karlcow> assistents
  434. # 13:28 < karlcow> parellel
  435. # 13:28 -!- charlvn [~charlvn@41.0.48.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
  436. # 13:28 < krijn> Why don't you all use IRCCloud?
  437. # 13:28 -!- zcorpan [~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com] has joined #whatwg
  438. # 13:28 < karlcow> krijn: I had a friend who was telling me it is a question of breathing
  439. # 13:29 < krijn> I have two invites left if you want
  440. # 13:29 < zcorpan> krijn: your server is closing the connection for me :(
  441. # 13:29 -!- maikmerten [~merten@vpnb141.itmc.tu-dortmund.de] has joined #whatwg
  442. # 13:30 < krijn> I cannot even reach it from within the same building..
  443. # 13:30 < krijn> Network cables are the crappiest invention ever
  444. # 13:31 < zcorpan> go plug in the cable again and throw out the cat
  445. # 13:31 -!- erlehmann [~erlehmann@89.204.153.88] has joined #whatwg
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  447. # 13:32 < hsivonen> Someone from Opera might be interested to know that http://my.opera.com/haavard/ is 404
  448. # 13:32 < karlcow> eat the cat!
  449. # 13:32 < karlcow> hsivonen: all my.opera.com
  450. # 13:32 < Philip`> There is no cat
  451. # 13:32 < karlcow> it seems
  452. # 13:33 -!- charlvn [~charlvn@41.0.48.54] has joined #whatwg
  453. # 13:33 -!- MikeSmith_ [~MikeSmith@EM111-188-146-116.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #whatwg
  454. # 13:34 < karlcow> and the cat's name is Erwin
  455. # 13:35 < erlehmann> so opera has jumped the shark now?
  456. # 13:37 -!- rwaldron [~Rick@75-150-66-249-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
  457. # 13:40 -!- _bga [~bga@95-55-37-251.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #whatwg
  458. # 13:40 < annevk> thanks karlcow
  459. # 13:40 < annevk> fixed
  460. # 13:43 -!- bga_ [~bga@ppp78-37-221-167.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
  461. # 13:45 < gsnedders> hsivonen: People poked.
  462. # 13:45 < hsivonen> gsnedders: thanks
  463. # 13:45 * hsivonen is interested in seeing what haavard has to say about Microsoft & WebGL
  464. # 13:46 -!- rwaldron [~Rick@75-150-66-249-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #whatwg
  465. # 13:47 < gsnedders> hsivonen: Fairly unsurprisingly, already known issue
  466. # 13:52 -!- miketaylr [~miketaylr@206.217.92.186] has joined #whatwg
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  468. # 13:57 < hasather> hsivonen: cached: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Y_sXnE9vvJwJ:my.opera.com/haavard/blog/2011/06/22/microsoft
  469. # 13:58 < hsivonen> hasather: thanks
  470. # 14:00 < hsivonen> hasather: ok. nothing new there
  471. # 14:04 < doublec> irccloud has issues with freenode cloaks last I used it
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  481. # 14:27 < annevk> Ms2ger, https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/d9098cf6a41b
  482. # 14:27 < annevk> Ms2ger, I fiddled with some external WebIDL defined terms, might create issues for you I suppose
  483. # 14:29 < karlcow> seo hell and titles in the eyes of google and bing http://searchengineland.com/writing-html-title-tags-humans-google-bing-59384
  484. # 14:32 < annevk> Ms2ger, also, if you agree this new approach makes sense I'll update Progress Events too
  485. # 14:32 < annevk> again...
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  491. # 14:45 < Ms2ger> How about waiting a day or two before updating PE? :)
  492. # 14:47 < Ms2ger> (and pushed)
  493. # 14:48 < annevk> ta
  494. # 14:48 < annevk> and I guess that's better
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  498. # 14:54 < scor> can microdata work with HTML < 5 without having to change their doctypes?
  499. # 14:54 < Ms2ger> Define "can" and "work"
  500. # 14:55 < zcorpan> generally stuff works regardless of doctype
  501. # 14:55 < scor> I'm assuming the consequence is that it will not validate any longer right?
  502. # 14:56 < scor> (validate against their doctype validator)
  503. # 14:56 < Ms2ger> True
  504. # 14:56 < zcorpan> if you validate as html5 then it it'll validate (assuming you use a doctype that html5 allows, e.g. html4 strict)
  505. # 14:57 < scor> will it have any impact on the browser? don't browser have different behaviors depending on the doctype?
  506. # 14:57 < scor> zcorpan: interesting, so some old doctype will still validate in html5?
  507. # 14:57 < zcorpan> yeah
  508. # 14:57 < scor> but some others will not validate?
  509. # 14:57 < scor> is there a list? or a rule?
  510. # 14:57 < zcorpan> there's a list in the spec
  511. # 14:58 < zcorpan> see "writing html documents"
  512. # 14:58 < Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#obsolete-permitted-doctype-string
  513. # 14:58 < scor> ok, got it
  514. # 14:59 < zcorpan> well, it only allows them in that you "should not" use them (instead of "must not")
  515. # 15:00 < scor> how about the browsers?
  516. # 15:00 < scor> will they behave differently based on the doctype?
  517. # 15:00 < zcorpan> not if you use a permitted one
  518. # 15:00 < scor> I'm not expecting them to do anything with the microdata attributes, just wondering if some would complain or break
  519. # 15:01 < zcorpan> the thing that can happen is that the browser would go in to quirks mode or almost standards mode if you use a doctype that triggers that
  520. # 15:01 < zcorpan> but microdata would work even then
  521. # 15:02 < zcorpan> (at least per spec, it's not implemented in browsers yet)
  522. # 15:02 < scor> ok, thanks zcorpan
  523. # 15:02 < scor> yes
  524. # 15:02 < Philip`> (Wouldn't work in IE quirks even if they do implement it)
  525. # 15:02 < zcorpan> (and ie has a different policy where new features are not enabled in old rendering modes)
  526. # 15:02 < zcorpan> ARIA is an exception
  527. # 15:03 < scor> including IE 7 and 8?
  528. # 15:03 < zcorpan> ie7 and 8 don't get new features
  529. # 15:03 < annevk> aah, you added that period
  530. # 15:04 < annevk> hg diff yielded nothing and I had only seen the previous checkin :)
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  568. # 16:11 < zcorpan> onload={handleEvent:...} seems nice. should we make it work?
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  570. # 16:13 < Ms2ger> smaug wanted that to work, iirc
  571. # 16:13 < zcorpan> fine with me!
  572. # 16:14 < smaug____> Ms2ger: I care more about addEventListener listeners
  573. # 16:14 < smaug____> but for consistency, onfoo should work the same way
  574. # 16:14 < Ms2ger> But who uses those?! :)
  575. # 16:15 < smaug____> atm everyone how wants to use { handleEvent: function() {} } uses addEventListener
  576. # 16:16 < smaug____> if we could then change setTimeout/Interval a bit, we could get rid of FunctionOnly
  577. # 16:16 < Ms2ger> Feel like bugging gal about it? (Or whoever is rewriting onfoo)
  578. # 16:17 < smaug____> bz is rewriting onfoo
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  587. # 16:52 < bga_> http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/24/opera-founder-jon-s-von-tetzchner-resigns-over-differences-with-board/
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  625. # 17:46 < zcorpan> i'm disappointed nobody has implemented https://twitter.com/#!/zcorpan/status/85118589711040513 yet
  626. # 17:47 < Ms2ger> I'm disappointed by a lot of things, but that's not one of them
  627. # 17:48 < zcorpan> i'm disappointed that you're not disappointed
  628. # 17:49 < Ms2ger> I'm sorry to hear that
  629. # 17:49 < Ms2ger> Actually, not *that* sorry
  630. # 17:49 < MikeSmith> I am relatively appointed about it
  631. # 17:49 * Ms2ger appoints MikeSmith
  632. # 17:49 * Philip` points at MikeSmith
  633. # 17:50 * MikeSmith disaccepts the appointment
  634. # 17:50 * charlvn needs a pint after this discussion
  635. # 17:51 * Ms2ger points at the pint
  636. # 17:51 < zcorpan> guys, if you'd put the energy on implementing it instead!
  637. # 17:51 * Philip` punts around the point
  638. # 17:52 * charlvn points at the punts
  639. # 17:52 * Ms2ger implements blink
  640. # 17:53 < charlvn> ok now this is official - each of us needs to get a life
  641. # 17:53 < Ms2ger> I know right
  642. # 17:53 * Philip` falls off the punt and contracts Weil's disease
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  644. # 17:55 < MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/#!/html5grind is posting some good stuff
  645. # 17:55 < MikeSmith> Ian Langworth
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  648. # 17:56 < bga_> html5grindcore
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  669. # 18:24 < AryehGregor> hsivonen, the point of the bug was to remove <ins> and <del> and replace them with attributes. I mostly focused on we don't want to add new standardized attributes without strong need. I didn't address the question of removing them, but Hixie's approach has been to keep preexisting features even if they have very marginal utility (e.g., <kbd>) so as not to gratuitously make pages invalid. If you want to reopen and let Hixie handle it, by a
  670. # 18:24 < AryehGregor> ll means feel free.
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  733. # 19:47 < smaug____> annevk: it is a bit hard to understand when you want to spec what the existing implementations do, and when you want to remove already implemented features
  734. # 19:48 < smaug____> perhaps you have some "implemented in less than 2 years ago, can be removed"
  735. # 19:49 -!- xtoph [~xtoph@213.47.185.206] has joined #whatwg
  736. # 19:49 < smaug____> (Note, I don't care too much about initProgressEvent, but would just like to understand the logic behind removing existing features from the specs)
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  740. # 19:51 < Ms2ger> "If we can get away with it", I suppose
  741. # 19:53 < smaug____> that has changed a lot since last TPAC, when I said that we can remove features from the web and I was laughed at :)
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  743. # 19:53 < Ms2ger> Meh, F2F :)
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  767. # 20:58 < AryehGregor> Hmm, why did zcorpan ask me to spec queryCommandSupported() back in March? It seems like a very trivial method.
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  780. # 21:39 < The_8472> <AryehGregor> It seems like a very trivial method. <- famous last words?
  781. # 21:39 < AryehGregor> The_8472, I mean based on my observation.
  782. # 21:39 < AryehGregor> It looks like what sane browsers do is return true if they support the command and false otherwise.
  783. # 21:39 < AryehGregor> At least WebKit does that.
  784. # 21:41 < AryehGregor> Gecko always just throws an exception, and Opera seems to return true for things it supports if there's something editable on the page and false otherwise.
  785. # 21:41 < AryehGregor> IE matches WebKit.
  786. # 21:41 < AryehGregor> So I really don't see the issue.
  787. # 21:42 < The_8472> well, is there any spec at all for it?
  788. # 21:42 < AryehGregor> Well, yes, I'm writing it. :)
  789. # 21:42 < AryehGregor> There's HTML5, but that's extremely sparse and often doesn't match reality on this subject.
  790. # 21:42 < The_8472> then he probably just wanted it to be put somewhere, even if the spec consists of a one-liner
  791. # 21:42 < AryehGregor> I dunno, I'll ask him when he comes back on if I remember.
  792. # 21:42 < jamesr> i think speccing every very trivial function in the web platform is a non-trivial but useful job
  793. # 21:43 < AryehGregor> Definitely, yeah.
  794. # 21:43 < AryehGregor> I just wondered why he specifically asked me to spec that.
  795. # 21:43 -!- ezoe [~ezoe@203-140-88-78f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #whatwg
  796. # 21:51 < Hixie> hmmm
  797. # 21:51 < Hixie> so if AudioTrackList returns a bunch of AudioTrack objects
  798. # 21:51 < Hixie> and a multi-audio-track <video> element has a changing number of audio tracks
  799. # 21:51 < Hixie> e.g. a stream gets a new audio track dynamically
  800. # 21:52 < Hixie> and then that track goes away
  801. # 21:52 < rubys> Hixie: if I remember correctly you had a website where your unprocessed feedback queue could be examined. Does this still exist?
  802. # 21:52 < Hixie> or even simpler, if the <video> gets a whole new media element
  803. # 21:52 * AryehGregor waves to rubys
  804. # 21:52 * rubys waves back
  805. # 21:53 < Hixie> i wonder what should happen if you keep hold an AudioTrack element and then manipulate it while the track no longer applies
  806. # 21:53 < Hixie> hmmm
  807. # 21:53 < hober> rubys: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ ?
  808. # 21:53 < Hixie> rubys: you mean whatwg.org/issues ?
  809. # 21:53 < Hixie> it's linked to from the top of the spec
  810. # 21:54 < Hixie> hm, actually, it's not, i removed the link a while back
  811. # 21:54 < rubys> hober/hixie: that's the page. Thanks!
  812. # 21:54 < Hixie> rubys: philip has a static version which may be more convenient depending on what you want to do
  813. # 21:55 < Hixie> rubys: there's also an api if you want to do something more complicated than just look at it
  814. # 21:55 < othermaciej> Hixie: is that list reasonably complete?
  815. # 21:55 < Hixie> it's automatically generated from the master list that is my imap folders, daily
  816. # 21:55 -!- lhnz [~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #whatwg
  817. # 21:56 < Hixie> it doesn't include feedback that wasn't sent to a public list my script knows about, but otherwise it's complete
  818. # 21:56 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #whatwg
  819. # 21:56 < othermaciej> I was going to say it's surprisingly small but there is a *lot* under "processing model"
  820. # 21:57 < Hixie> "processing model" is where all the feedback goes by default
  821. # 21:57 < Hixie> the name is historical
  822. # 21:57 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood]
  823. # 21:57 < Hixie> whatwg.org/issues/data.html has a data view
  824. # 21:58 < Hixie> which may be more convenient if you're just worried about numbers
  825. # 21:58 < Hixie> whatwg.org/issues/data.csv has historical data
  826. # 21:58 -!- hij1nx [~hij1nx@207.239.107.3] has quit [Quit: hij1nx]
  827. # 21:59 < Hixie> i also have per-folder summary data if you want that too, but it's not currently anywhere public
  828. # 21:59 -!- hij1nx [~hij1nx@207.239.107.3] has joined #whatwg
  829. # 22:00 < Hixie> maybe each AudioTrack should have a link (implicit or explicit) back to the AudioTrackList, and once the track goes away, the link is cut, at which point it keeps returning its old data but is otherwise dead
  830. # 22:00 < Hixie> i guess that's the closest to what HTMLOptionElement does
  831. # 22:01 -!- estellevw [~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #whatwg
  832. # 22:03 < othermaciej> the count on the whatwg issues page doesn't quite line up with the email count
  833. # 22:03 < othermaciej> I expanded everything and took a plaintext dump, it only has around 1000 lines
  834. # 22:03 < Hixie> if you look at the csv file it breaks down the count into the things you can see on the issues/ page and the things it's not showing because they're hidden for some reason or other
  835. # 22:03 < othermaciej> whereas the graph seems to say 1600
  836. # 22:03 -!- lhnz [~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
  837. # 22:03 < othermaciej> ok
  838. # 22:04 < Hixie> i haven't updated the list of public lists so there might be some lists that are being included that are treated as private
  839. # 22:04 < othermaciej> 1066,346,1628
  840. # 22:04 < Hixie> let me check that now
  841. # 22:04 < othermaciej> the public and private don't seem to add up to the total
  842. # 22:04 < Hixie> the total isn't the sum of the others
  843. # 22:05 < othermaciej> are there email categories other than public and private?
  844. # 22:05 < Hixie> yeah there's like 6
  845. # 22:05 < Hixie> hold on, let me update the list first and then look at what the categories are
  846. # 22:06 -!- miketaylr [~miketaylr@206.217.92.186] has quit [Quit: miketaylr]
  847. # 22:06 < Hixie> hah, my script in fact is outputting "Miscount!!! Total 1554 != 1057 visible + privateCount hidden" which doesn't bode well
  848. # 22:06 * Hixie investigates further
  849. # 22:06 < othermaciej> part of the reason for asking this is to estimate how much effort it would take for someone to put this data into bugzilla, should anyone care to do so (not that we're planning to do that without consulting)
  850. # 22:07 -!- heycam|away is now known as heycam
  851. # 22:08 < Hixie> sounds like a terrible idea
  852. # 22:08 < Hixie> mail feedback and bug feedback are quite different
  853. # 22:08 < Hixie> mail feedback is where things get discussed, threads fork, etc
  854. # 22:08 < Hixie> bug feedback is only good for simple issues without discussion
  855. # 22:08 < rubys> Hixie: it is easier to prove that it is a terrible idea with hard data; that's what we are gathering here.
  856. # 22:09 < othermaciej> like rubys says, we are only gathering data at this point
  857. # 22:10 < Hixie> looks like some of the difference in counts is that a bunch of e-mails are in the folders twice
  858. # 22:12 -!- jennb [~jennb@74.125.59.65] has joined #whatwg
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  860. # 22:14 < Hixie> ok i updated my list of public lists, regenning now
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  866. # 22:31 < zcorpan> aw man krijn's cat is still messing with the cords
  867. # 22:33 -!- lhnz [~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
  868. # 22:34 < othermaciej> wow, email count went way down and the private email count is very low
  869. # 22:34 -!- smaug____ [~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
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  871. # 22:36 < Hixie> othermaciej: ok i fixed the script to not count bugmails, which was skewing the count badly
  872. # 22:36 < Hixie> othermaciej: and fixed the various bugs that were making things count double
  873. # 22:36 < othermaciej> I can imagine...
  874. # 22:37 < othermaciej> are any of the 35 private emails things that need to be addressed urgently? and do they really need to be private?
  875. # 22:37 < othermaciej> hope this is not too much distraction
  876. # 22:37 < othermaciej> I'm asking b/c 35 seems like a pretty small number
  877. # 22:37 < Hixie> they're just things people mailed to me directly
  878. # 22:37 < Hixie> usually rants that don't result in the spec changing :-)
  879. # 22:38 < othermaciej> k
  880. # 22:40 -!- yuhong [~chatzilla@50-47-173-54.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #whatwg
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  882. # 22:41 < Hixie> (no idea if they _need_ to be private, but i don't want my script making private mails public so i make it err on the side of caution)
  883. # 22:42 < zcorpan> maybe i should start sending my feedback to Hixie directly
  884. # 22:42 < zcorpan> and just rant in public
  885. # 22:44 -!- lhnz [~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
  886. # 22:48 < AryehGregor> zcorpan, why did you specifically ask me back in March to spec queryCommandSupported()? It seems like a pretty trivial thing.
  887. # 22:48 -!- sicking [~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:226:bbff:fe05:3fe1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
  888. # 22:49 < zcorpan> AryehGregor: dunno, was probably looking at some opera bug about it
  889. # 22:49 < yuhong> Just found this: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/974322
  890. # 22:51 < yuhong> Short version: they added support for doing appendChild to ancestors beyond the parent elements in a security update!
  891. # 22:52 < zcorpan> appending children to its ancestors can be dangerous!
  892. # 22:52 < zcorpan> s/its/their/
  893. # 22:54 < yuhong> zcorpan: what do you mean?
  894. # 22:55 < zcorpan> i was just rambling
  895. # 22:55 < yuhong> Example: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2008/04/23/what-happened-to-operation-aborted.aspx\
  896. # 22:56 < yuhong> In fact, found this out when I tried it myself.
  897. # 22:59 < zcorpan> thank you aria for doing this. http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/html-xhtml-52/nav-vs-div-role%3D-navigation-766658.html
  898. # 22:59 -!- nessy [~Adium@124-168-149-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #whatwg
  899. # 23:00 < yuhong> I wonder if there is any way to detect from JS.
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  908. # 23:17 < Hixie> does http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#audiotracklist-and-videotracklist-objects seem like the right direction?
  909. # 23:18 < Hixie> (ignore the inheritance chain, i might change that. not sure whether it's worth making them inherit from the same thing given how trivial the interfaces are otherwise)
  910. # 23:19 < Hixie> ok back in a bit to finish this
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  917. # 23:25 -!- bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  925. # 23:52 < zewt> bleh, can't find a workaround for an annoying chrome bug http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=86730
  926. # 23:55 < bga_> annevk http://www.twitlonger.com/show/bd2994
  927. # 23:55 < bga_> i guess s/Event/DOMEvent/ is solution
  928. # 23:58 < zcorpan> so what about new Event('foo', {get cancelable:function(){alert('lol')}})
  929. # 23:58 -!- othermaciej [~mjs@17.246.18.107] has quit [Quit: othermaciej]
  930. # 23:59 < bga_> throw TypeError('value required')?

The end :)