/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-01 / end

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  11. # 00:26 < boblet> AryehGregor: re: your reply on blockquote/footer, I don’t understand “This means it's tied to the nearest <section> or <article> or such. It's not supposed to be specifically related to any other type of ancestor, like <blockquote>.” blockquote is a sectioning root element…
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  15. # 00:29 < Hixie> boblet: why do you want to have the footer in the blockquote?
  16. # 00:30 < boblet> Hixie: to include attribution about the block quote…
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  18. # 00:32 < boblet> Hixie: why in specifically rather than in surrounding prose: CSS styling, pre-HTML5 pattern, ‘logical’ association, and that seems a cromulent use of footer according to “A footer typically contains information about its section”
  19. # 00:32 < Hixie> CSS styling is the only one of those that seems like a real reason (as opposed to "i want to")
  20. # 00:32 < Hixie> what kind of styling do you want to do?
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  22. # 00:33 < TabAtkins> Presumably throw a border around the whole blockquote.
  23. # 00:33 < boblet> It’s common for blockquote attribution to appear as part of the block quote. Common styles for block quotes include indenting (default), a different background color, or a left border. On HTML5 Doctor we use a border and box-shadow. If the attribution is outside the blockquote, making the styles match is annoying, requiring a class for eg indent, or a wrapper div for eg box-shadow.
  24. # 00:34 -!- jwalden [~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10] has joined #whatwg
  25. # 00:34 < erlehmann> cromulent.
  26. # 00:34 < erlehmann> wat
  27. # 00:35 < TabAtkins> http://www.google.com/webhp?q=define%3Acromulent
  28. # 00:35 < boblet> erlehmann: http://html5doctor.com/ruby-rt-rp-element/#en ;)
  29. # 00:37 < Hixie> boblet: just wrap the blockquote and attribution in a div, and style that :-)
  30. # 00:37 < erlehmann> then do microdata magic to connect it?
  31. # 00:38 < erlehmann> TabAtkins, boblet, intredasting.
  32. # 00:40 < Hixie> erlehmann: why? what problem would that solve?
  33. # 00:40 < boblet> Hixie: that’s possible, and one of the pre-HTML5 patterns I found. but I’d still argue that it’s annoying to do so. using footer seems much cleaner, fits the usage pattern of footer, and blockquote is a sectioning root element…
  34. # 00:41 < TabAtkins> Hixie: <footer>s are attached to the nearest ancestor section, thus *not* the preceding blockquote sibling.
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  36. # 00:41 < erlehmann> Hixie, so it is known that it is an attribution?
  37. # 00:41 < Hixie> using footer here doesn't seem like it solves any problems
  38. # 00:41 < Hixie> just use <p>
  39. # 00:41 < boblet> I should mention that I’m not expecting any special implementor behaviour associated with this
  40. # 00:41 < Hixie> <div><blockquote>...</blockquote> <p>&mdash; ...</p></div> is what i do, works fine
  41. # 00:42 < erlehmann> boblet, what if you want to quote a footer? HA! :D
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  44. # 00:43 < boblet> erlehmann: a footer just contains information about its section. There’s no restriction on having two footers in a sectioning element, so there’s no problem with quoting a footer and then having attribution in another footer. And if the block quote includes content and a footer, then the footer will still refer to the content, regardless of whether it is quoted or contains attribution
  45. # 00:43 < Hixie> ok i'm checking http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#stream-api in shortly, first chance to tell me i'm off in the weeds :-)
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  47. # 00:45 < boblet> Hixie: why *not* use footer, given blockquote is a sectioning root element?
  48. # 00:45 < Hixie> because you're not quoting a footer
  49. # 00:45 -!- ben_h [~ben@128.250.195.138] has joined #whatwg
  50. # 00:45 < boblet> but the footer is providing information about the section, in this case the blockquote’s content
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  53. # 00:47 < Hixie> boblet: but you're not quoting it
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  55. # 00:48 < boblet> Hixie: also, doesn’t that mean you’d need to change footer’s current definition so that it’s not allowed in blockquote (unless it’s being quoted)?
  56. # 00:48 < erlehmann> i like how hixie is just letting that flow.
  57. # 00:48 < erlehmann> against a wall :)
  58. # 00:49 < boblet> erlehmann: you’re not helping :p
  59. # 00:49 < Hixie> boblet: that is already its definition
  60. # 00:49 < Hixie> boblet: by definition, nothing in blockquote is allowed unless it's being quoted, since the meaning of blockquote is "this is being quoted" and you're not allowed to use elements that violate their meaning
  61. # 00:49 < erlehmann> i second that motion.
  62. # 00:49 * zewt squints trying to read weirdly-rendered sentence with five quotostrophies
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  64. # 00:50 < erlehmann> zewt, how are people styling that? do they use different quotes beyond single-and-double-quotes?
  65. # 00:51 < boblet> so what’s the logic behind figcaption, vs wrapping figure in div and adding a caption in a paragraph?
  66. # 00:51 < zewt> ' :)
  67. # 00:51 < boblet> zewt: wow, 5 levels of quotation is pretty rare
  68. # 00:51 < boogyman> boblet: the latter doesn't doesn't offer the same context
  69. # 00:51 < zewt> erlehmann: oh, you mean the glyph itself?
  70. # 00:52 < zewt> many fonts have different glyphs for close-single-quote and apostrophe, and using the former for the latter looks strange
  71. # 00:52 < erlehmann> boblet, http://schema.org/CreativeWork can have an author. if you wish to include attribution, why not use microdata?
  72. # 00:52 < boblet> boogyman: what do you mean by context?
  73. # 00:53 < boogyman> boblet: how a user-agent processing and understands the relation of two or more elements
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  75. # 00:54 < zewt> erlehmann: http://i.imgur.com/pmBiJ.png it's an extreme example (crappy font I'm in at the moment), but it happens in more common, proportional fonts as well
  76. # 00:54 < boogyman> a <div><p> provides no context, as it is a general "wrapper" where a <figure><figcaption> creates a relationship between the two "objects"
  77. # 00:54 < boblet> erlehmann: sure, it’s possible to use microdata (or microformats or RDFa) to indicate an author as mentioned in http://html5doctor.com/blockquote-q-cite/
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  80. # 00:55 < zewt> (enough that it sticks out and looks weird)
  81. # 00:55 < erlehmann> zewt, i reject your font and substitute my own.
  82. # 00:55 < erlehmann> fun fact: i use droid sans for interfaces :)
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  84. # 00:55 < boblet> zewt: youd prefer txtspeak?
  85. # 00:55 < zewt> erlehmann: for that font, fair enough :) my client isn't smart enough with fonts so I have it in a fugly japanese font for some channels
  86. # 00:56 < erlehmann> boblet, Y U NO TXTSPK?
  87. # 00:56 < erlehmann> :B
  88. # 00:56 < boblet> boogyman: same logic to my argument for using footer in blockquote
  89. # 00:57 < boblet> erlehmann: “”‘’ are on my keyboard… why not
  90. # 00:57 < erlehmann> nifty tables there on html5doctor
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  93. # 00:58 < erlehmann> boblet, i use neo2 and have even more characters! „“”‚‘’⟨⟩»«›‹
  94. # 00:58 < erlehmann> but i mostly use „“ and ‚‘ (german)
  95. # 00:59 < erlehmann> CSS styling quotes is rad :)
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  99. # 01:05 < boblet> Hixie: another styling issue with your idea — I’d have to always use a wrapping div, even for blockquotes with no attribution, or hang the styles on a class and apply that to div (for attribution case) or blockquote (for no attrib case)
  100. # 01:06 < boblet> alternatively if I wanted to just use straight blockquote (no class) when there’s no attribution, I’d need to overwrite all the blockquote styles if there’s a parent div class="blockquote"
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  102. # 01:07 < Hixie> :not(div.bq) > blockquote { }
  103. # 01:08 -!- david_carlisle [~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
  104. # 01:09 < boblet> and browser support for :not is… :p
  105. # 01:10 < boblet> will attempt to rephrase more persuasively and email to the list. thanks for the feedback
  106. # 01:11 < Hixie> :-)
  107. # 01:11 < Hixie> isn't :not pretty widely supported by now?
  108. # 01:11 < Hixie> it was in like acid2 wasn't it?
  109. # 01:11 < jamesr> :not? no
  110. # 01:12 < Hixie> who on earth doesn't support it?
  111. # 01:12 < Hixie> i guess it was only acid3
  112. # 01:14 < jamesr> :not() in css3-selectors is defined as only taking simple selectors, div.bq is not a simple selector
  113. # 01:14 < jamesr> dunno who supports non-simple selectors in :not() these days
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  115. # 01:14 < Hixie> oh, right
  116. # 01:14 < Hixie> it'd just be :not(.bq) > blockquote { }
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  145. # 02:28 < Philip`> Is Gmail now saying that every email sent by a Gmail user to the WHATWG list is phishing?
  146. # 02:28 < Philip`> (as a change from its old approach of saying every email from @google.com was phishing)
  147. # 02:30 -!- GPHemsley [~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
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  149. # 02:32 < zewt> yeah i just started seeing that today
  150. # 02:32 < zewt> not every mails, but enough to be problematic
  151. # 02:32 < zewt> (every mails? english is hard)
  152. # 02:38 < Philip`> (every mail)
  153. # 02:38 < Philip`> (english are hard)
  154. # 02:39 < Philip`> ((Not the latter))
  155. # 02:39 -!- GPHemsley [~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley] has joined #whatwg
  156. # 02:40 < zewt> (i was puzzling at what strange series of edits I must have made to land on "every mails", heh)
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  158. # 02:41 * Philip` realises he is half asleep, and should go the rest of the way
  159. # 02:41 < jamesr> it's pretty hyperactive
  160. # 02:42 < jamesr> i'm sure someone is tuning it
  161. # 02:42 < zewt> gmail suddenly started cramming way too much info in every from: section, too
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  179. # 03:37 < karlcow> http://blog.stateless.co/post/6246070973/how-offline-web-apps-should-work
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  189. # 04:13 < roc> karlcow: I believe a big problem with that proposal is that it doesn't allow for safe updates. How does a Web author ensure that if a user visits a new version of the Web app, manages to download half of the resources and then goes offline, they still have a usable version of the app for offline use?
  190. # 04:20 < roc> I'm a bit worried about the increasing use of Function attributes instead of real DOM event listeners
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  192. # 04:20 < karlcow> roc: in which ways localStorage prevent a partial update? (question, because I do not know)
  193. # 04:21 < roc> localStorage a) sucked and b) is nothing to do with this really
  194. # 04:21 < karlcow> ooops
  195. # 04:21 < roc> the feature he's talking about is the HTML5 "appcache"
  196. # 04:21 < karlcow> I meant the appcache
  197. # 04:21 < karlcow> 23:22 here
  198. # 04:22 < roc> I was talking to you at 4am my time last night, so deal with it :-)
  199. # 04:22 < karlcow> heh
  200. # 04:22 < karlcow> but you are a roc(k)
  201. # 04:22 < roc> in my head, anyway
  202. # 04:22 < roc> appcache is specifically designed to ensure that you always get a consistent version
  203. # 04:22 < roc> it ensures that app resources are always loaded from the cache, not the network
  204. # 04:23 < roc> when the manifest changes, it reloads all the resources in the background, while servicing requests from the old version of the app
  205. # 04:23 < karlcow> I see
  206. # 04:23 < roc> when all the resources for the new version have downloaded, it atomically switches over
  207. # 04:23 < roc> that's one reason you need a manifest
  208. # 04:24 < roc> There may be ways to improve the appcache --- I'd be glad if there are --- but that guy hasn't quite thought through the problem enough
  209. # 04:30 < karlcow> hmm krijn server has hiccup
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  214. # 04:53 < karlcow> http://ariya.blogspot.com/2011/06/your-webkit-port-is-special-just-like.html
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  218. # 05:16 < Hixie> according to http://caniuse.com/#search=column css3 column support is pretty widespread
  219. # 05:16 < Hixie> but when i try to use it i find a bunch of stuff isn't implemented
  220. # 05:16 < Hixie> e.g. column-span
  221. # 05:16 < Hixie> what's the story?
  222. # 05:16 < Hixie> spec is fiction, or caniuse is fiction?
  223. # 05:17 < benschwarz> Hixie, I'm not sure. But even the 'best' support for css columns is pretty lax. Subtle differences between browsers makes it tricky to use too
  224. # 05:17 < Hixie> are there any rants about this online i could look at?
  225. # 05:20 < benschwarz> Hixie, nothing that comes to mind
  226. # 05:20 < Hixie> k
  227. # 05:21 < benschwarz> in actuality, I don't think a lot of people are using them right now
  228. # 05:21 < benschwarz> columns of text, for the most part, don't really work on screen. better in print
  229. # 05:25 -!- Rik` [~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
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  231. # 05:28 < MikeSmith> Hixie: I think you have to use vendor prefixes for the column stuff still
  232. # 05:29 < roc> we don't support column-span
  233. # 05:29 < roc> and we require vendor prefix
  234. # 05:29 < MikeSmith> Hixie: e.g., http://platform.html5.org/style.css
  235. # 05:29 < Hixie> yeah caniuse mentions the prefix
  236. # 05:29 < Hixie> roc: is it planned? or is the spec in the weeds?
  237. # 05:29 -!- ben_h [~ben@128.250.195.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
  238. # 05:29 < roc> the spec's OK
  239. # 05:30 < roc> we need to check our implementation
  240. # 05:30 -!- ben_h [~ben@128.250.195.138] has joined #whatwg
  241. # 05:30 < Hixie> k
  242. # 05:30 < roc> and implement column-span, which is not so easy
  243. # 05:30 < Hixie> talking of css specs, anyone know how realistic http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/ is?
  244. # 05:31 < Hixie> it looks quite... featureful
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  247. # 05:33 < roc> it's mostly supported by most browsers
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  252. # 05:40 < karlcow> the best support for columns is currently in opera, though with -o-
  253. # 05:41 < Hixie> in what sense is it better than webkit or gecko's support?
  254. # 05:41 < Hixie> it doesn't seem to support span either
  255. # 05:41 < Hixie> nor honour -o-column-width?
  256. # 05:42 < Hixie> what version should i be using?
  257. # 05:48 < MikeSmith> Opera seems to support span, afaict
  258. # 05:48 < Hixie> what version?
  259. # 05:48 < Hixie> i couldn't get it to work at all
  260. # 05:48 < MikeSmith> 11.11 and Opera.next
  261. # 05:49 < Hixie> i'm on 11.50
  262. # 05:49 < MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm using it on http://platform.html5.org/
  263. # 05:49 -!- bentruyman is now known as bent_sleeping
  264. # 05:50 < MikeSmith> Opera also support break-* properties for columns
  265. # 05:51 < MikeSmith> e.g., break-inside: avoid and break-after: avoid
  266. # 05:51 < Hixie> what am i doing wrong? this works in webkit and gecko but not opera for me http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1053
  267. # 05:51 < Hixie> i'm on mac, opera 11.50
  268. # 05:51 < MikeSmith> Hixie: span works in my Opera 11.50 on Mac
  269. # 05:51 * MikeSmith looks
  270. # 05:52 < MikeSmith> Hixie: just do column-count for Opera
  271. # 05:52 < MikeSmith> you don't need the vendor prefix
  272. # 05:53 < Hixie> oh i thought karl said i had to use -o-
  273. # 05:53 < Hixie> k
  274. # 05:53 < Hixie> ah, yes, that works
  275. # 05:53 < MikeSmith> cool
  276. # 05:53 -!- mamund [mamund@obsidian.nullshells.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
  277. # 05:55 < Hixie> wtf now i can't get -span to work in opera either
  278. # 05:55 < Hixie> yet it works in your doc
  279. # 05:56 < Hixie> hm, it works in this case
  280. # 05:57 < Hixie> weird
  281. # 05:58 < Hixie> it works if i use <h1> but not if i use <span>?
  282. # 05:58 < Hixie> ah, it only applies to block-level elements
  283. # 05:58 < Hixie> i assumed it made them block-level
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  297. # 06:45 < Hixie> hm, webkit does -span as well
  298. # 06:53 < zewt> weirdo layout hack in gmail's mail index header, wonder when they started doing that ... looks really busted when you scroll around and it visibly changes modes
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  326. # 08:25 * hsivonen wonders what WOW-playing Opera users think of the download progress bar WOW quip
  327. # 08:27 -!- MrOpposite [~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite] has joined #whatwg
  328. # 08:29 -!- erlehmann [~erlehmann@89.204.137.113] has joined #whatwg
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  334. # 08:41 < zcorpan> searching for "opera wow" on twitter didn't bring up much about WoW
  335. # 08:43 -!- erlehmann [~erlehmann@89.204.137.113] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
  336. # 08:45 < krijn> karlcow: Yeah, I know, router and/or network cable to the second floor is broken. Will try to fix it tomorrow
  337. # 08:48 -!- jochen__ [~jochen@nat/google/x-drwopggelqfloeeg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  338. # 08:48 -!- jochen__ [~jochen@nat/google/x-kvdlftqdeomufscq] has joined #whatwg
  339. # 08:51 < zcorpan> hsivonen: http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/html-xhtml-52/link-anchor-doesnt-seem-working-ff4-ff5-766794.html "Someone also pointed out that in about:config, setting "html5.parser.enable" to "false", makes this go away."
  340. # 08:51 * zcorpan doesn't know what the bug # is
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  351. # 09:13 -!- roc [~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
  352. # 09:13 < zcorpan> boblet: what do you mean with "excludes footer"?
  353. # 09:15 < zcorpan> boblet: "Content inside a blockquote must be quoted from another source" is a conformance requirement. so if you put content inside blockquote that is not from another source, it makes your document non-conforming
  354. # 09:16 < zcorpan> AryehGregor: blockquote is sectioning root
  355. # 09:17 < zcorpan> maybe i should reply to teh email instead
  356. # 09:17 < boblet> zcorpan: that should have been stated not felt huh
  357. # 09:18 < boblet> (took me a while to find where I’d written that :)
  358. # 09:18 < zcorpan> boblet: where did i state that?
  359. # 09:18 < boblet> however spec for footer says it’s allowed in sectioning root elements, and blockquote is a sectioning root element
  360. # 09:18 < zcorpan> indeed, i don't recall stating that blockquote must not contain footer
  361. # 09:19 < boblet> I meant in that while footer is able to be quoted in blockquote, it’s not able to be used as a footer for blockquote
  362. # 09:19 < MikeSmith> zcorpan: that is, not allowed to contain the attribution, only the quote itself
  363. # 09:20 < zcorpan> yeah ok
  364. # 09:20 -!- cachemoney [~cachemone@71-94-133-68.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #whatwg
  365. # 09:20 < boblet> I’ve been thinking more about it, and am writing an email about the use cases the current spec makes difficult or excludes
  366. # 09:21 < boblet> will look forward to your feedback on it :) hopefully tomorrow…
  367. # 09:21 < boblet> biab
  368. # 09:42 -!- mpt [~mpt@canonical/mpt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
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  370. # 09:53 -!- david_carlisle [~chatzilla@86.188.197.189] has joined #whatwg
  371. # 09:54 < asmodai> Any of my regular contacts in here interested in testing Google+?
  372. # 09:54 < annevk> I am
  373. # 09:55 -!- stefan-_ [~music@swhpet3041.uni-trier.de] has joined #whatwg
  374. # 09:56 < matjas> AryehGregor: can you chime in here? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=389348#c6
  375. # 09:56 < annevk> it seems I'm in already
  376. # 09:56 < annevk> thanks arve!
  377. # 09:58 < asmodai> lol
  378. # 09:59 < asmodai> Step out for 4 mins to talk to a colleague and annevk already gets invited, haha
  379. # 09:59 < david_carlisle> hsivonen: how many extra names does IE have, are they listed somewhere?
  380. # 10:00 -!- mpt [~mpt@conference/canonical/x-xgflksritvyleriy] has joined #whatwg
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  384. # 10:02 < hsivonen> david_carlisle: my vague recollection is that there are more than 5 but fewer than 20.
  385. # 10:03 < hsivonen> david_carlisle: the one that I remember is called &pdf; but that ungooglable, so I have trouble finding a list
  386. # 10:03 < david_carlisle> hsivonen: grmble, hopefully we'll decide not to do anything, then i can go back to sleep
  387. # 10:04 < annevk> we already decided that last time this came up
  388. # 10:04 < annevk> not sure what new information there is
  389. # 10:04 < hsivonen> annevk: yes we did, but I don't recall the rationale.
  390. # 10:04 < hsivonen> annevk: had I recalled the rationale, I'd have WONTFIXed the bug already
  391. # 10:04 < annevk> IE has entities for bidirectional characters
  392. # 10:04 -!- logicc2 [~logicc2@193.255.9.49] has joined #whatwg
  393. # 10:05 < hsivonen> annevk: also, I'm not sure I agreed with the rationale last time
  394. # 10:05 < hsivonen> still, I don't like flipflopping on stuff like this forever
  395. # 10:06 < annevk> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-March/014125.html
  396. # 10:06 < annevk> "
  397. # 10:06 < annevk> I'm very skeptical about introducing entities for the codes that are
  398. # 10:06 < annevk> redundant with dir="" and <bdo> (namely, lre, lro, pdf, rle, rlo).
  399. # 10:06 < annevk> I don't know enough about the others to have an educated opinion. I can
  400. # 10:06 < annevk> set up a search to examine the data in more detail."
  401. # 10:07 < annevk> david_carlisle, in that email you can also find a list, just search for "pdf"
  402. # 10:07 < hsivonen> annevk: dir="" and <bdo> don't work inside the title attribute
  403. # 10:07 < david_carlisle> annevk: thanks for the link
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  406. # 10:13 < zcorpan> Hixie: do you look at bugs in their order of priority?
  407. # 10:16 -!- tbassetto [~tbassetto@LRouen-151-71-49-64.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #whatwg
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  420. # 10:46 < asmodai> hah, awesome: http://grantgalitz.org/get_the_hell_out/LegendOfZelda_Links_Awakening/
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  426. # 10:48 < zcorpan> i love that game
  427. # 10:49 -!- roc [~chatzilla@121.98.230.221] has joined #whatwg
  428. # 10:51 < matjas> is it possible to disable rich text in contenteditable? /inb4 “just use <textarea>”
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  431. # 10:53 < zcorpan> seems it doesn't have the select glitch
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  452. # 11:40 < hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks for the sitepoint link
  453. # 11:40 < hsivonen> zcorpan: I have no idea what's going on but I trust bz's guess: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=668213#c5
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  461. # 11:51 < bdc> PM `matjas`
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  483. # 12:53 < annevk> Ms2ger, any chance I can get commit access to specification-data?
  484. # 12:53 < annevk> Ms2ger, I am going to try to do Progress Events with Anolis to see if I can make it work, but I need to add some references
  485. # 12:54 < annevk> Ms2ger, currently it does not even have XHR
  486. # 12:54 < Ms2ger> I thought you had access already, fixed now
  487. # 12:54 < Ms2ger> Btw, you noticed anolis can create those files for you?
  488. # 12:55 < annevk> I saw something about it creating the index for terms and such, but not sure how it works
  489. # 12:57 -!- virtuelv [~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #whatwg
  490. # 12:58 < Ms2ger> anolis --dump-xrefs=data/xrefs/dom/xhr.json Overview.src.html /tmp/whatever would update xhr.json
  491. # 12:58 -!- mpt [~mpt@canonical/mpt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
  492. # 12:58 < Ms2ger> (You probably need a stub with the URL first)
  493. # 13:00 < annevk> interesting
  494. # 13:00 -!- GuentherB [~guenther@p5DC57D20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #whatwg
  495. # 13:14 < annevk> Ms2ger, I updated references.json with an XHR entry but I still get
  496. # 13:14 < annevk> "SyntaxError: Specification not found: xhr."
  497. # 13:15 < annevk> does specs.data also need an update?
  498. # 13:15 < annevk> hmm
  499. # 13:15 -!- _jgr [~jgr@CPE-124-185-195-126.lns6.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #whatwg
  500. # 13:15 < Ms2ger> specs.json is for cross-spec cross-references, references.json is for the references section
  501. # 13:21 -!- myakura [~myakura@FL1-119-240-253-187.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #whatwg
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  503. # 13:25 < annevk> the error reporting is not so great
  504. # 13:25 < annevk> lots of times make just says nothing and I get an empty Overview.html
  505. # 13:25 < zcorpan> so http://people.opera.com/miket/2011/6/viewer.html is kinda broken if the user uses teh reload button after viewing an image
  506. # 13:26 < Ms2ger> It should print an exception at least
  507. # 13:26 < Ms2ger> But patches very welcome ;)
  508. # 13:27 < zcorpan> would it be worth it to work around this misuse of the api so that if you reload a page that has used pushState, and the new page doesn't have an event listener for popstate, when you navigate back the browser uses the previous page (the one that used pushState) instead of staying on the current one
  509. # 13:27 < annevk> I think there are no exceptions for missing reference entries
  510. # 13:27 < annevk> it just fails silently
  511. # 13:28 < annevk> or maybe once it has thrown an exception it won't throw it again the next time you run make
  512. # 13:29 -!- danbri [~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #whatwg
  513. # 13:29 < Ms2ger> Strange, there is "raise SyntaxError, "Reference not defined: %s." % ref" in the code
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  518. # 13:37 < annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/ now uses Anolis
  519. # 13:37 < annevk> I guess I should check in my changes to specification-data
  520. # 13:38 < Ms2ger> Please do
  521. # 13:39 < annevk> where can you put a global hg file with username info and such?
  522. # 13:40 < Ms2ger> ~/.hgrc
  523. # 13:41 < annevk> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/specification-data/changeset/8390f4084a7a
  524. # 13:41 < Ms2ger> Lovely
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  532. # 13:48 < hsivonen> how does Roboform integrate into Opera versions that didn't support extensions?
  533. # 13:48 < hsivonen> it claims compat with Opera 7 through 11
  534. # 13:48 < hsivonen> does it do some tricky native code injection without API support from Opera?
  535. # 13:53 < annevk> Ms2ger, can you use Anolis from Python easily?
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  538. # 13:56 < Ms2ger> Depends on what you call easily, I guess
  539. # 13:56 < Ms2ger> I'd look at http://hg.hoppipolla.co.uk/hgwebdir.cgi/aquarium/file/ebf539280b86/aquarium.py#l74
  540. # 14:01 -!- mpt_ [~mpt@canonical/mpt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
  541. # 14:05 < annevk> I need to do some pre-processing for XMLHttpRequest
  542. # 14:05 < annevk> either that needs to move to the Makefile or the Makefile needs to move to Python
  543. # 14:05 < annevk> or I guess I can create a bash script that combines them...
  544. # 14:09 < Ms2ger> Oh, right
  545. # 14:10 < annevk> that last option is prolly the easiest
  546. # 14:15 < Ms2ger> annevk, maybe something like this would work? http://pastebin.com/XAMfTyCS
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  551. # 14:18 < annevk> I actually want to generate both copies at the same time
  552. # 14:18 < annevk> but I guess that's a step in that direction
  553. # 14:18 < annevk> Ms2ger, how do I do http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/#ref-httpverbsec ?
  554. # 14:19 -!- mpt_ [~mpt@conference/canonical/x-rzmwwlelplayljrv] has joined #whatwg
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  557. # 14:19 < Ms2ger> Wait for me to implement it, I'm afraid
  558. # 14:19 * Ms2ger looks
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  560. # 14:20 < annevk> I sort of like that for XML too
  561. # 14:20 < annevk> because you never want XML without XMLNS
  562. # 14:20 < annevk> at least not for specifications that matter, afaict
  563. # 14:25 -!- roc [~chatzilla@121.98.230.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
  564. # 14:30 * Ms2ger tests
  565. # 14:30 -!- virtuelv [~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
  566. # 14:32 < Ms2ger> annevk, { "HTTPVERBSEC": [{first link}, {second link}, {third link}] } should work if you update anolis
  567. # 14:33 < annevk> sweet
  568. # 14:33 < annevk> I'm adding a bunch of missing references first
  569. # 14:36 -!- mokush_ [~quassel@188.24.97.215] has joined #whatwg
  570. # 14:37 < Ms2ger> Looks like Vlad doesn't edit Typed Arrays anymore
  571. # 14:37 < annevk> Ms2ger, you mean after "href" and "title" right?
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  574. # 14:37 < zcorpan> seems like some users don't want to update firefox because add-ons and other things break - http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/4908549-post15.html (search for "Actually, two reasons:")
  575. # 14:38 < annevk> Ms2ger, I will update that right away
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  579. # 14:41 < Ms2ger> annevk, http://pastebin.com/C9VbyrWK
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  581. # 14:45 < annevk> thanks
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  589. # 14:58 < annevk> matjas, even though whitespace is not allowed it can still be made to work
  590. # 14:59 < annevk> matjas, so you should escape it appropriately on http://mothereffingcssescapes.com/ I think besides giving a warning
  591. # 14:59 -!- zdobersek [~zan@cpe-46-164-19-165.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
  592. # 15:00 < hsivonen> so IE10 PP2 has msRequestAnimationFrame
  593. # 15:00 < hsivonen> what's the Opera situation with that one?
  594. # 15:00 < annevk> we don't
  595. # 15:01 < hsivonen> sucks for Web authors (again) that this stuff isn't frozen and unprefixed faster
  596. # 15:01 -!- cygri_ [~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie] has joined #whatwg
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  598. # 15:04 < Rik`> hsivonen: the first shipped implementation is only 3 months old
  599. # 15:05 < hsivonen> Rik`: it's not like there's so many design decisions here
  600. # 15:05 -!- cygri [~cygri@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
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  602. # 15:06 < Rik`> hsivonen: the webkit guys proposed a second argument to determine if the element is displayed
  603. # 15:06 -!- bga_ [~bga@ppp91-122-179-198.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #whatwg
  604. # 15:06 < hsivonen> I wonder if MS is interested in supporting MathML. they have pretty cool other layout goodies in 10PP2
  605. # 15:06 < hsivonen> Rik`: that kind of change would have been backwards-compatible even if the method had been unprefixed already
  606. # 15:08 < matjas> annevk: done, thanks!
  607. # 15:08 < hsivonen> in cases like these, prefixing mainly serves to disadvantage browsers that authors didn't bother to support at a given point in time
  608. # 15:08 < hsivonen> for example, if Opera adds an o-prefixed version, it will suck that code written for moz and webkit prefixes will go to a fallback setTimout path
  609. # 15:09 < hsivonen> even worse if a new engine wanted to break into the market
  610. # 15:10 < hsivonen> also, the point of prefixing is defeated if authors anticipate the o-prefixed and unprefixed versions to behave like the existing impls and write code anticipating that
  611. # 15:11 -!- hdhoang [~hien@203.210.203.156] has joined #whatwg
  612. # 15:12 < Rik`> yes but the alternative is "first to implement choose the API"
  613. # 15:13 < gsnedders> hsivonen: And what we do now is often end up as the first to drop the prefix, which hurts too
  614. # 15:13 < hsivonen> Rik`: that happens anyway if Web authors write code that anticipates the unprefixed version working like the first prefixed version
  615. # 15:15 < matjas> annevk: wait, not done. Line breaks won’t work when simply escaped through \. Unicoads here I come!!1
  616. # 15:15 < Rik`> hsivonen: no, people who used the unprefixed version of the webkit gradients will not see it working
  617. # 15:15 < hsivonen> Rik`: when someone with paul_irish's visibility has blogged http://paulirish.com/2011/requestanimationframe-for-smart-animating/ , it's game over for incompatible changes unless browsers are willing to break cool new legacy content
  618. # 15:16 < david_carlisle> hsivonen: I wonder about that too:-)
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  621. # 15:17 < smaug____> browser vendors should always be willing to break prefixed APIs
  622. # 15:17 -!- mhausenblas [~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie] has quit [Quit: mhausenblas]
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  624. # 15:18 < hsivonen> smaug____: note that copy-pasteable boilerplate in that post anticipates the future existence of compatible unprefixed version, o-prefixed version and ms-prefixed version
  625. # 15:18 -!- scor [~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view] has joined #whatwg
  626. # 15:18 < hsivonen> so far, guessing that an ms-prefixed version with the same behavior will emerge has paid off!
  627. # 15:19 < hsivonen> it will be interesiting to see what happens with flexbox
  628. # 15:19 < hsivonen> I changed prefixes to -ms- on code that worked in Gecko and WebKit using -moz- and -webkit- and got different results
  629. # 15:20 < hsivonen> (yes, I'm aware that TabAtkins has made actual spec changes after -moz- and -webkit- flexbox impls were made)
  630. # 15:20 < annevk> Ms2ger, so I'm trying to populate a newly generated progress-events.json but it does not work
  631. # 15:20 -!- davidb [~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925210321.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #whatwg
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  638. # 15:31 < hsivonen> fwiw, I'll be away from the internets next week, so even if someone sorts out the incomplete registrations at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions , deployment on Validator.nu will have to way until the 11th of July
  639. # 15:35 < annevk> Ms2ger, we should change <var> so that it never xrefs
  640. # 15:35 -!- davidb [~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925210321.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #whatwg
  641. # 15:39 < hsivonen> looks like the link that the Webtrends regs should have had is http://product.webtrends.com/WRC/7.0/Documents/TechRef.pdf
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  648. # 16:01 < annevk> converting XHR is a little more work than expected :/
  649. # 16:01 < annevk> it was a feature people have requested for ages though so hopefully it is worth it
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  659. # 16:34 < TabAtkins> hsivonen: IE10 will have old flexbox behavior. Webkit is switching to new flexbox behavior.
  660. # 16:35 < TabAtkins> Of course, both -moz and -webkit flexbox were sufficiently different/buggy that you couldn't just spam the prefixes and get the same result in non-trivial cases.
  661. # 16:37 -!- MikeSmith [~mikesmith@EM1-112-178-202.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #whatwg
  662. # 16:39 < annevk> Ms2ger, anolis seems to strip _ from terms
  663. # 16:40 < annevk> Ms2ger, this creates problems for e.g. SYNTAX_ERR which becomes syntaxerr but is syntax_err in xrefs
  664. # 16:41 -!- cygri [~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie] has joined #whatwg
  665. # 16:42 < annevk> I could hack Anolis but I have no commit rights
  666. # 16:44 -!- hij1nx [~hij1nx@64.134.45.39] has quit [Quit: hij1nx]
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  668. # 16:47 < annevk> Ms2ger, I have a fix
  669. # 16:47 < smaug____> TabAtkins: just curious, any estimate whether the new flexbox model will be stable, or will it be changed again in few months?
  670. # 16:47 < annevk> -non_alphanumeric_spaces = re.compile(r"[^a-zA-Z0-9 \-]+")
  671. # 16:47 < annevk> +non_alphanumeric_spaces = re.compile(r"[^a-zA-Z0-9 \-\_]+")
  672. # 16:47 < annevk> Ms2ger, ^^ in the xref files
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  674. # 16:48 < smaug____> so, what is the reason for <command> element?
  675. # 16:50 < TabAtkins> smaug____: The underlying model is stable, though I'm re-adding the multiline feature today or next week. Syntax may still be tweaked, but that's it.
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  678. # 16:53 < smaug____> I guess there is only one reason for <command>; to have icon with checkbox or radiobutton
  679. # 16:53 < smaug____> kind of weak reason
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  682. # 16:55 < AryehGregor> boblet, zcorpan: Oops. I should have read the spec before I commented. :)
  683. # 16:56 < AryehGregor> (on blockquote as sectioning root)
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  685. # 16:58 < AryehGregor> matjas, I'll look.
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  689. # 17:09 < hsivonen> TabAtkins: apparently the cases I've used (or, well, that Paul Rouget has used and that I've copied) have been simple enough to have the same flex stuff with -moz- and -webkit-
  690. # 17:12 < paul_irish> hsivonen: btw i hear ya on rAF.. i wrote that post as a way to gather feedback on the spec primarily.. secondarily i wanted to share a shim that was a bit smarter than existing ones that were circulating. it does put vendors in weird place though as the script assumes certain behavior.. :/
  691. # 17:12 < paul_irish> Few devs understand that the existence of a prefix means By Using this You are entering into a Contract where things may break and it is Your Fault if they do. :)
  692. # 17:13 < paul_irish> and then i'd also suggest many things stay prefixed too long anyhow, so that implication loses its authority over time
  693. # 17:14 < paul_irish> not sure what the right solution is.. but i do get the vibe most devs dont know where/how to submit the community feedback that is desired and implied by the prefix
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  699. # 17:28 < hsivonen> paul_irish: I think the right solution is to allocate more people-time paid by browser vendors to spec writing
  700. # 17:28 -!- ap [~ap@2620:149:4:401:226:4aff:fe14:aad6] has joined #whatwg
  701. # 17:28 < hsivonen> paul_irish: to get specs in order sooner
  702. # 17:29 < paul_irish> +1
  703. # 17:29 < TabAtkins> +1
  704. # 17:29 * TabAtkins could use some more spec writers to help out.
  705. # 17:32 -!- hdhoang [~hien@203.210.203.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
  706. # 17:36 < smaug____> not only spec writers, but also spec reviewers
  707. # 17:38 < MikeSmith> speaking of spec review, would be nice to get more implementor feedback on the Notifications spec
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  709. # 17:39 < MikeSmith> we had estimated we could take that to LC this month
  710. # 17:39 < MikeSmith> or maybe even it was CR
  711. # 17:39 < annevk> John should fix the things Hixie raised I guess
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  714. # 17:40 < MikeSmith> need to ping him I guess
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  719. # 17:43 < MikeSmith> whoah, Alastair left Bocoup
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  728. # 18:22 < TabAtkins> Hm. Is multipage partially broken? Looks like http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/rendering.html is coming through as an empty doc.
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  737. # 18:48 < annevk> Ms2ger, if you are still there, need to allow / too
  738. # 18:49 -!- shichuan [~Shi_Chuan@cm182.eta124.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #whatwg
  739. # 18:49 < annevk> -non_alphanumeric_spaces = re.compile(r"[^a-zA-Z0-9 \-]+")
  740. # 18:49 < annevk> +non_alphanumeric_spaces = re.compile(r"[^a-zA-Z0-9 \-\_\/]+")
  741. # 18:49 < annevk> Ms2ger, ^^ is the new diff
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  744. # 18:53 < AnselmBradford> Does anyone know the current status of the keygen element support in IE? Is this post still the current sentiment of MS? http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html5-episode-35 e.g. no intention of support in IE?
  745. # 18:54 -!- karlcow [~karl@nerval.la-grange.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
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  748. # 18:57 < AryehGregor> AnselmBradford, that's the last I heard, yeah.
  749. # 18:57 < AryehGregor> Everyone seems to agree keygen stinks.
  750. # 18:57 < AryehGregor> But no one cares enough to replace it.
  751. # 18:59 < AnselmBradford> AryehGregor: thanks, seemed to be the sentiment I was reading
  752. # 18:59 < AnselmBradford> just wanted to double-check
  753. # 19:00 < AnselmBradford> you reckon it will be replaced anytime soon? Or who knows...
  754. # 19:01 < TabAtkins> AnselmBradford: It'll be replaced when someone cares enough to. ^_^ Which no one does currently, so...
  755. # 19:01 < AnselmBradford> TabAtkins: heh, fair enough
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  774. # 19:34 < annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/ and http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/ use Anolis as well now
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  822. # 21:34 < smaug____> ahaa, accessKey handling is underspecified
  823. # 21:34 * smaug____ needs to review and file a bug
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  841. # 22:09 < Hixie> annevk-cloud: yt?
  842. # 22:09 < Hixie> oh hm nm
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  845. # 22:10 < Hixie> annevk-cloud: should http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/from-origin/raw-file/tip/Overview.html just be merged into the Fetch algorithm?
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  848. # 22:23 < Hixie> i'm going to start making web pages which, isntead of using native controls or canvas or svg or whatever, draw everything pixel by pixel using one radio button per pixel and CSS to set the radio button pixels' colours
  849. # 22:23 < Hixie> i demand that we add accessibility apis to support this authoring model!
  850. # 22:23 < Hixie> why do you all hate accessibility! you're makign it imposssible for me to write accessible web pages using radio buttons for pixels!
  851. # 22:24 -!- shepazu [~schepers@31-33-72.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: shepazu]
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  853. # 22:30 < The_8472> Hixie, i prefer my "canvas fallback through 1x1px table cells" approach
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  855. # 22:31 < Hixie> dude authors would never use table cells for this kind of thing, it's clear that that's bad for accessibility. they will use radio buttons like me! which is why we should have a radio button pixel accessibility api!
  856. # 22:32 -!- hij1nx [~hij1nx@207.239.107.3] has quit [Quit: hij1nx]
  857. # 22:32 < The_8472> we could... embed radio buttons in table cells for maximum compatibility AND accessability?
  858. # 22:37 < Hixie> TabAtkins: if you could get some traction on http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=80911&q=bzbarsky&colspec=ID%20Stars%20Pri%20Area%20Feature%20Type%20Status%20Summary%20Modified%20Owner%20Mstone%20OS that'd be fantastic; the difference is masking some potential issues with wf2 api changes
  859. # 22:37 < jamesr> google.com had table cell bitmaps for icons at one point briefly
  860. # 22:37 < jamesr> with judicious use of rowspan/colspan to cut down on the # of cells
  861. # 22:37 < Hixie> the shopping cart guys did that
  862. # 22:37 < Hixie> i had words
  863. # 22:37 < jamesr> yeah
  864. # 22:37 < Hixie> (not that they listened, but still)
  865. # 22:37 < jamesr> i think it was only live for a few days
  866. # 22:37 < hober> Hixie: :)
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  868. # 22:38 < The_8472> <jamesr> with judicious use of rowspan/colspan to cut down on the # of cells <- "let's implement something atrociously slow and horrible. and then optimize it a bit. it'll be perfectly fine!"
  869. # 22:38 < zewt> heh
  870. # 22:38 < zewt> the firmware update on my old wifi router actually uses a form submit button ... as a progress bar
  871. # 22:38 < zewt> o_O
  872. # 22:39 < jamesr> The_8472: i think the motivation was mainly to inline the image (to avoid another request) and support browsers that didn't handle data: urls
  873. # 22:39 < The_8472> oh. static images. i was thinking of animating stuff with tables!
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  875. # 22:46 < jamesr> hah
  876. # 22:46 < jamesr> you could probably do something decent with paletted tables
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  879. # 22:57 < Ms2ger> annevk-cloud, I'll look at it tomorrow if I don't forget
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The end :)