/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-02 / end

Options:

  1. # 00:02 -!- bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  2. # 00:03 -!- kurrik [~kurrik@nat/google/x-hifsdgsdyxiaxtyw] has joined #whatwg
  3. # 00:03 -!- micheil [~micheil@109.231.193.164] has quit [Quit: http://brandedcode.com | http://github.com/miksago]
  4. # 00:06 < jamesr> is anyone here following jason weber's setImmediate proposal discussions closely?
  5. # 00:06 < jamesr> i feel like i have a different set of assumptions going in and i'm not exactly sure what they are
  6. # 00:13 -!- ttepasse [~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?]
  7. # 00:14 < Hixie> jamesr: http://www.w3.org/mid/CAD73md+Zp8J2bbdgTqPnK7FYW9A8ZHAEttz_6-H16g6sPKumUA@mail.gmail.com is the crux of the matter as far as i can tell
  8. # 00:14 -!- dbaron [~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-izcdivwnxrssjtrk] has joined #whatwg
  9. # 00:14 < jamesr> well, yeah
  10. # 00:15 < jamesr> that's definitely an issue
  11. # 00:15 < TabAtkins> So, hm. How many of the use-cases for setImmediate can be solved by Workers?
  12. # 00:15 < Hixie> jamesr: i don't understand what the proposal achieves other than that, and as you imply, it doesn't even achieve that
  13. # 00:15 < TabAtkins> After all, you can just infinite-loop a Worker and go about your business.
  14. # 00:16 < Hixie> presumably this is for things that update the dom?
  15. # 00:16 < Hixie> but then why not use settimeout-0
  16. # 00:16 < zewt> (well, workers still have the problem of not being able to receive events during a processing loop; maybe I should give that thread a kick at some point...)
  17. # 00:16 -!- ap [~ap@2620:149:4:401:226:4aff:fe14:aad6] has quit [Quit: ap]
  18. # 00:17 < jamesr> zewt: true
  19. # 00:17 < jamesr> we could unclamp settimeout() in workers
  20. # 00:18 < jamesr> or rely on authors setting the timer early, like in my example code
  21. # 00:18 < TabAtkins> Hixie: You can just send a message to something in the page that'll update the dom for you.
  22. # 00:18 < TabAtkins> jamesr: No need to setTimeout at all in workers.
  23. # 00:18 < jamesr> TabAtkins: you do in order to process incoming messages
  24. # 00:18 < Hixie> TabAtkins: not if the work to update the dom is the expensive work
  25. # 00:18 < jamesr> or window.postMessage() yourself to yield
  26. # 00:18 < zewt> my proposal was to add a way to explicitly, synchronously receive a message from a MessagePort in workers; don't remember where that left off (just trailed off, iirc)
  27. # 00:18 < jamesr> which is equivalent to setImmediate
  28. # 00:19 < TabAtkins> jamesr: Ah, yes, recieving messages woudl require that. If you're just sending them, you don't.
  29. # 00:19 < TabAtkins> But yeah, unclamping in a Worker would work, since the primary use-case for the clamp is "keep the UI thread from being hung".
  30. # 00:19 < jamesr> it's more to keep really dumb pages from spinning 100%
  31. # 00:19 < jamesr> with an unclamped setTimeout() you can still service UI stuff
  32. # 00:20 < TabAtkins> Hixie: But it'll get done in separate invocations of the message handler, right?
  33. # 00:20 < zewt> jamesr: iirc, an objection to that was that it may be hard to actually guarantee the message loop spins fully when a 0ms timer is looping
  34. # 00:20 < zewt> (don't remember clearly, discussion was a while ago)
  35. # 00:20 < jamesr> smells like QoI
  36. # 00:20 < zewt> er, the event loop
  37. # 00:20 < Hixie> TabAtkins: oh, i see what you're saying
  38. # 00:21 < Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah, you could do that. it's a bit non-intuitive.
  39. # 00:21 < jamesr> the event loop impl in chrome is very carefully designed not to starve any task source (both the HTML-defined ones and the implementation-internal ones)
  40. # 00:21 < Hixie> TabAtkins: think of a case where you need to crawl a 5MB document and search for text nodes containing some text
  41. # 00:21 < Hixie> TabAtkins: can't really do that in a worker, and you need to yield
  42. # 00:21 < TabAtkins> jamesr: Oh, if that's the major use-case, then setImmediate does nothing. If someone was spinning the CPU with setTimeout(0), there's absolutely no reason they wouldn't spin it with setImmediate too.
  43. # 00:21 < Hixie> TabAtkins: (settimeout 0 seems fine for that in practice, to me)
  44. # 00:21 < TabAtkins> Hixie: That's true, and yes.
  45. # 00:21 < jamesr> TabAtkins: that's my primary objection
  46. # 00:22 < Hixie> anyway i don't really see the point of setImmediate()
  47. # 00:22 < Hixie> it'll never be possible to keep it unclamped
  48. # 00:22 < Hixie> at which point, it's the same as setTimeout()
  49. # 00:22 < Hixie> so...
  50. # 00:22 < TabAtkins> jamesr: I assumed the big reason was the whole "starving everybody else of events" thing, and because solving that with setTimout(0) can increase your running time by a non-trivial amount if you dont' split up the work large enough.
  51. # 00:23 < zewt> TabAtkins: there's an argument against that on that page: setTimeout(0) has never actually spun, since implementations have always clamped it (long before that was specced), and at least some people using setTimeout(0) are depending on that (probably without being aware of it)
  52. # 00:23 < jamesr> TabAtkins: then split your work better
  53. # 00:23 -!- GuentherB [~guenther@p5DC57D20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
  54. # 00:23 < zewt> TabAtkins: i certainly wouldn't argue that *some* people wouldn't spin stupidly with setImmediate, of course
  55. # 00:23 < jamesr> zewt: that's just not true, though. mozilla was unclamped, they noticed that pages were using 100% CPU, and they clamped
  56. # 00:23 < zewt> jamesr: because of people only testing in IE, is my first guess
  57. # 00:24 < jamesr> in chrome we had an unclamped setTimeout for a while (before release)
  58. # 00:24 < jamesr> couldn't go with it, of course, because too many pages spun the CPU too badly
  59. # 00:24 < TabAtkins> jamesr: Indeed. Your code snippet was simple. If it's a big problem, we can solve *that* case directly.
  60. # 00:24 < jamesr> people's macbook pros were setting their jeans on fire
  61. # 00:24 < zewt> (the set of people who would only test in IE and the set of people who would use a setTimeout(0) busy loop probably has a lot of overlap)
  62. # 00:24 < TabAtkins> With, like, a "yieldIfTooMuchTimeIsPassing()" function.
  63. # 00:24 < Hixie> well you wouldn't want a continuation
  64. # 00:25 < Hixie> (well, you would, but vendors wouldn't)
  65. # 00:25 < TabAtkins> "yieldIfTooMuchTimeHasPassedSinceTheLastTimeICalledThisFunction()"
  66. # 00:25 < Hixie> but the same principle applies
  67. # 00:25 -!- othermaciej [~mjs@17.246.17.191] has quit [Quit: othermaciej]
  68. # 00:25 < Hixie> hasTooMuchTimeElaphsed()
  69. # 00:25 < TabAtkins> Hixie: I certainly do. And at least some of us webkit people do.
  70. # 00:25 < Hixie> really?
  71. # 00:25 < Hixie> dude the moment browser vendors add continuations to the platform, i'm speccing features left right and center to use them
  72. # 00:26 < TabAtkins> Yeah. It's even in our Traceur thing.
  73. # 00:26 -!- othermaciej [~mjs@17.246.17.191] has joined #whatwg
  74. # 00:26 < TabAtkins> We support an "async" keyword that does simple continuations.
  75. # 00:26 < Hixie> all the async apis can go away if we have real continuations
  76. # 00:26 < zewt> what's the vendor objection to them? just too hard to handle when calling scripts from lots of different exit points?
  77. # 00:26 < jamesr> continuations are cool but they're a language level thing
  78. # 00:26 < jamesr> dunno if you can just slip them in without a lot of careful design
  79. # 00:26 < TabAtkins> Hixie: Indeed, continuations are ridiculously more usable than callbacks.
  80. # 00:26 -!- Necrathex [~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Quit: Necrathex]
  81. # 00:26 < Hixie> anyway my assumption is that they're not coming any time soon
  82. # 00:27 < Hixie> but if that assumption is wrong, i look forward to being proven so :-)
  83. # 00:27 < TabAtkins> jamesr: You end up having to duplicate all the async methods into being task-based, but it's not too intrusive.
  84. # 00:27 -!- kurrik [~kurrik@nat/google/x-hifsdgsdyxiaxtyw] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
  85. # 00:28 < TabAtkins> Hixie: Tasks-via-continuations are just an inversation of iterator functions, which everyone wants to support (and FF already does).
  86. # 00:28 < TabAtkins> s/inversation/inversion/
  87. # 00:28 < TabAtkins> It's basically the same "convert the code into a state machine" transformation.
  88. # 00:29 < Hixie> i thought iterator functions were very tied to specific objects
  89. # 00:29 -!- ZombieLoffe [~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe] has quit []
  90. # 00:30 < TabAtkins> Just to make sure we're talkinga bout the same thing, I'm referring to Python-like functions that use "yield" to return values.
  91. # 00:30 < Hixie> yeah
  92. # 00:30 < Hixie> you can't just yield from a random function though, you can only yield from one that's known to be an iterator, right?
  93. # 00:30 < TabAtkins> Ok, then yeah, it's the same thing but inverted. When you use an iterator function, the function is converted to a state machine. When you use a task, *you're* converted to a state machine.
  94. # 00:31 < jamesr> TabAtkins: your mom is converted to a state machine
  95. # 00:31 < TabAtkins> And you magically transform into producing tasks as well.
  96. # 00:31 < Hixie> so what happens if you're in the middle of processing a sync event or one of these new mutation callbacks, and you call yield()?
  97. # 00:31 < Hixie> that sounds insanely painful
  98. # 00:31 -!- CvP [~CvP@123.49.21.223] has quit [Quit: [ UPP ] > all]
  99. # 00:31 < TabAtkins> I won't think about Jonas's mutation callbacks, because they're not good.
  100. # 00:32 < TabAtkins> I dunno how sync events are handled. What's an example?
  101. # 00:32 < Hixie> ok, you're in the middle of a signalling channel callback, and you call yield()
  102. # 00:32 < Hixie> does the whole PeerConnection C++ implementation get "converted to a state machine"?
  103. # 00:32 < zewt> Hixie: well, there's how Python does it: if you use the yield keyword, then calling the function returns a generator object; which implies that you can only yield if the caller is expecting it, or the rest of the function just won't be executed
  104. # 00:33 -!- bga_|away is now known as bga_
  105. # 00:33 < zewt> so the exit points that actually support yielding is controllable and not everything necessarily needs to
  106. # 00:33 < TabAtkins> Hixie: Dunno how PeerConnection works either.
  107. # 00:33 < Hixie> zewt: right, but that yields to the caller. here we're talking about yielding to the event loop. whole different kettle of fish.
  108. # 00:34 < jamesr> i think having continuations is nice but it doesn't really reduce the complexity of re-entrancy by that much
  109. # 00:34 < zewt> right, but the callback or event could specify whether it supports it
  110. # 00:34 < TabAtkins> But the function that uses the async keyword (to magically make an async event look sync in the code) gets transformed to returning a task instead of its normal return value.
  111. # 00:34 < zewt> (not sure just how that would work with events)
  112. # 00:34 < TabAtkins> And it returns that task as soon as the first "async" is hit.
  113. # 00:34 < zewt> tab: yeah, that sounds directly analogous to Python's model
  114. # 00:34 < TabAtkins> If the caller doesn't know how to handle tasks, it'll get hurt.
  115. # 00:35 < TabAtkins> But everything on the UA level *should* know how to do so.
  116. # 00:35 < Hixie> TabAtkins: oh so you're not just yielding to the event loop, you're just yielding to the parent, who then has to yield as well, etc
  117. # 00:35 < TabAtkins> Yes.
  118. # 00:35 < Hixie> oh well that's not so interesting
  119. # 00:35 < Hixie> that's just a generator
  120. # 00:35 < zewt> i think lua's model allows yielding all the way out, but it has a full coroutine system for that
  121. # 00:35 < TabAtkins> It still lets you write straight-line, callback-less code in many situations that would otherwise be messy.
  122. # 00:36 < Hixie> TabAtkins: not really. you have to have your entire callchain expect you to be yielding, it's not much better than having the whole chain use callbacks.
  123. # 00:36 < TabAtkins> Hixie: Not quite. Actually implementing it with a generator involves more fiddliness.
  124. # 00:36 < Hixie> in other news, i just did a revamp of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#rendering to be organised by element, not property
  125. # 00:37 < zewt> Hixie: from my experience with Python, i disagree; having to yield up the call chain is annoying, but *way* better than callbacks or a direct state machine
  126. # 00:37 < Hixie> can y'all give it a quick sanity check?
  127. # 00:37 -!- dglazkov [~dglazkov@nat/google/x-bgjxkwdyvwgwizlo] has quit [Quit: dglazkov]
  128. # 00:37 < Hixie> (in particular if anyone can reorder the stylesheet at the top of 15.2.5 Phrasing content to make more sense, let me know)
  129. # 00:37 < Hixie> (i couldn't come up with a good organisation for it)
  130. # 00:38 < The_8472> callbacks and coroutines are nearly the same if you do callbacks with closures and the closure syntax is so thin that you could just as well continue the method...
  131. # 00:39 < jamesr> Hixie: wait, 'expected' is a MUST-level requirement?
  132. # 00:40 < jamesr> i never realized that (i think i always have skipped to the individual entries and skipped the intro text)
  133. # 00:40 < Hixie> jamesr: it's a kind-of-must-requirement for certain classes of UAs
  134. # 00:42 < The_8472> iow: if you want to slap a "standards-compliant" label on your UA?
  135. # 00:42 < zewt> the: it's a significant difference in readability; being able to write algorithms linearly is, IMO, one of the major advantages of doing stuff in workers instead of with callbacks
  136. # 00:43 < Hixie> The_8472: you don't have to implement the rendering rules in general
  137. # 00:43 < Hixie> The_8472: you do if you want to be a mainstream browser ("user agent designated as supporting the suggested default rendering")
  138. # 00:44 < The_8472> that's very weasel-y language
  139. # 00:44 < Hixie> suggestions welcome on making it clearer
  140. # 00:44 -!- Lachy [~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no] has joined #whatwg
  141. # 00:44 < Hixie> TabAtkins: what's the opposite of "replaced element"?
  142. # 00:44 < zewt> (of course, on the same token I'd rather be able to offload more things into workers than worry about new ways to do complex tasks in the UI thread)
  143. # 00:44 < Hixie> TabAtkins: (in css)
  144. # 00:44 < TabAtkins> non-replaced element.
  145. # 00:44 < Hixie> bummer
  146. # 00:44 < Hixie> i was hoping for something more puthy
  147. # 00:44 < Hixie> pithy
  148. # 00:44 < TabAtkins> We rarely have to talk about that.
  149. # 00:45 < TabAtkins> Usually it's just general rules for all elements, and then exceptions for replaced.
  150. # 00:45 < Hixie> i have a section on replaced elements, following a section on everything else
  151. # 00:45 < Hixie> looking for a heading for that first section
  152. # 00:45 < The_8472> zewt, problem with workers is that none of the core components (DOM/layout/javascript) have been designed with multithreading in mind. that's why the webworker api is so useless
  153. # 00:45 < TabAtkins> Hixie: Got some suggestion on how to fix 15.2.5 to be more readable. How you want the feedback?
  154. # 00:45 -!- smaug____ [~chatzilla@a91-154-45-105.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
  155. # 00:46 < Hixie> TabAtkins: whatever works for you
  156. # 00:46 < zewt> the: they've been designed with multithreading explicitly not in mind, which isn't quite the same thing
  157. # 00:46 < TabAtkins> I'll email, then.
  158. # 00:46 < Hixie> k, send it straight to ian@hixie.ch
  159. # 00:46 < zewt> (not quite the right way of putting it, but I think you know what I mean)
  160. # 00:47 < Hixie> TabAtkins: eta? (just trying to work out if i should check it in now and handle the feedback async, or if i should check google+ then handle your feedback :-) )
  161. # 00:47 < The_8472> yeah. the point was is that those design decisions (intentional or not) are what has lead to the web workers being so restricted
  162. # 00:47 < TabAtkins> Hixie: 5 min or less
  163. # 00:47 < Hixie> cool
  164. # 00:48 < zewt> the: yeah; some of those will hopefully eventually be relaxed, some will probably never be (eg. multithreaded access to the same DOM tree)
  165. # 00:50 < The_8472> snapshotting
  166. # 00:50 < The_8472> snapshot the dom tree, work on a read-only copy
  167. # 00:50 < The_8472> could be "good enough" for some things
  168. # 00:51 < TabAtkins> Hixie: Sent. Just some slight reordering, and some redundancy added to make things group better.
  169. # 00:51 < zewt> maybe, sounds complex, though
  170. # 00:51 < The_8472> e.g. to collect all the data you need to generate a fragment, read the layout properties without risking layout reflows and then attach the generated fragment to the live dom
  171. # 00:51 < zewt> (how do you snapshot a WebGL context?)
  172. # 00:51 < The_8472> texture
  173. # 00:52 < The_8472> you'd need a "get me the live equivalent of this dom node" call of course
  174. # 00:52 < Hixie> TabAtkins: thanks
  175. # 00:52 < nlogax> STM DOM? :)
  176. # 00:53 < Hixie> TabAtkins: you think redundancy is ok? i've been avoiding it like the plague in this section for some reason
  177. # 00:53 < TabAtkins> Yes.
  178. # 00:53 < Hixie> k
  179. # 00:53 < TabAtkins> I always feel icky when I remove redundancy from my stylesheet just for the sake of removing redundancy.
  180. # 00:53 < TabAtkins> Selectors should communicate useful information, especially when grouped together.
  181. # 00:54 < Hixie> (by redundancy i meant multiple rules applying the same property with the same value to the same element; is that what you meant?)
  182. # 00:54 < Hixie> (i don't see any)
  183. # 00:54 -!- fishd_ is now known as fishd
  184. # 00:55 < Hixie> i think you meant multiple rules giving the same property/value pair
  185. # 00:55 < Hixie> which seems ok
  186. # 00:55 < TabAtkins> No, I meant splitting up a selector into multiple decl blocks.
  187. # 00:55 < TabAtkins> Yeah.
  188. # 00:55 < Hixie> looks good
  189. # 00:56 < Hixie> regenning
  190. # 00:56 * The_8472 uses sass at work. the generated CSS can grow to humungous proportions if you don't pay attention... but it makes things so much easier
  191. # 00:57 -!- weinig [~weinig@17.203.15.198] has joined #whatwg
  192. # 00:57 < The_8472> tweak a few variables and the whole color scheme changes. gradients, text, borders... everything
  193. # 00:58 < The_8472> can only be a decade until we have that in browsers too :(
  194. # 00:58 < TabAtkins> I'm working on it.
  195. # 01:01 -!- fishd is now known as fishd|away
  196. # 01:03 -!- zarko [~zarko@74.125.59.1] has quit [Quit: off to catch a plane]
  197. # 01:06 -!- Rik` [~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee] has joined #whatwg
  198. # 01:15 -!- hdhoang [~hdhoang@203.210.203.156] has joined #whatwg
  199. # 01:19 -!- jacobolus [~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  200. # 01:20 -!- jacobolus [~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #whatwg
  201. # 01:21 -!- nessy [~Adium@124-168-149-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
  202. # 01:23 -!- jacobolus [~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  203. # 01:45 -!- jwalden [~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c] has quit [Quit: brb]
  204. # 01:45 -!- jwalden [~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c] has joined #whatwg
  205. # 01:45 -!- bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  206. # 01:45 -!- bga_|away [~bga@ppp78-37-224-239.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
  207. # 01:46 -!- _jgr [~jgr@CPE-124-185-195-126.lns6.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #whatwg
  208. # 01:56 -!- dbaron [~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-izcdivwnxrssjtrk] has quit [Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.]
  209. # 01:58 -!- ezoe [~ezoe@112-68-244-35f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #whatwg
  210. # 02:14 -!- KaOSoFt [~KaOSoFt@190.254.32.68] has joined #whatwg
  211. # 02:14 -!- KaOSoFt [~KaOSoFt@190.254.32.68] has quit [Changing host]
  212. # 02:14 -!- KaOSoFt [~KaOSoFt@unaffiliated/kaosoft] has joined #whatwg
  213. # 02:22 -!- dbaron [~dbaron@173-228-28-228.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #whatwg
  214. # 02:32 -!- KaOSoFt [~KaOSoFt@unaffiliated/kaosoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
  215. # 02:36 -!- othermaciej [~mjs@17.246.17.191] has quit [Quit: othermaciej]
  216. # 02:46 -!- othermaciej [~mjs@67.218.105.255] has joined #whatwg
  217. # 02:47 -!- MikeSmith [~MikeSmith@EM114-48-164-64.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
  218. # 02:53 -!- MikeSmith [~MikeSmith@EM1-112-214-183.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #whatwg
  219. # 02:59 -!- ojan [~ojan@nat/google/x-gkldqmgipwvefmsx] has quit [Quit: ojan]
  220. # 03:01 -!- The_8472 [~stardive@azureus/The8472] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
  221. # 03:08 -!- The_8472 [~stardive@azureus/The8472] has joined #whatwg
  222. # 03:32 -!- fixl [~fixl@124-170-2-206.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #whatwg
  223. # 03:35 -!- niftylettuce [~niftylett@cpe-069-134-067-010.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #whatwg
  224. # 03:35 -!- KaOSoFt [~KaOSoFt@190.254.32.68] has joined #whatwg
  225. # 03:35 -!- KaOSoFt [~KaOSoFt@190.254.32.68] has quit [Changing host]
  226. # 03:35 -!- KaOSoFt [~KaOSoFt@unaffiliated/kaosoft] has joined #whatwg
  227. # 03:36 -!- othermaciej [~mjs@67.218.105.255] has quit [Quit: othermaciej]
  228. # 03:39 -!- niftylettuce [~niftylett@cpe-069-134-067-010.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  229. # 03:41 -!- niftylettuce [~niftylett@cpe-069-134-067-010.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #whatwg
  230. # 03:48 -!- othermaciej [~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #whatwg
  231. # 03:51 -!- karlcow [~karl@nerval.la-grange.net] has joined #whatwg
  232. # 03:53 -!- karlcow [~karl@nerval.la-grange.net] has quit [Client Quit]
  233. # 03:58 -!- jamesr [~jamesr@216.239.45.82] has quit [Quit: jamesr]
  234. # 04:00 -!- pdr2 [~pdr2@75-144-232-190-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #whatwg
  235. # 04:01 -!- shepazu [~schepers@pool-71-174-254-88.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #whatwg
  236. # 04:01 -!- pdr2 [~pdr2@75-144-232-190-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  237. # 04:02 -!- pdr2 [~pdr2@nat/google/x-peyarxtqerdqvrgq] has joined #whatwg
  238. # 04:03 -!- niftylettuce [~niftylett@cpe-069-134-067-010.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  239. # 04:04 -!- shepazu [~schepers@pool-71-174-254-88.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit]
  240. # 04:05 -!- karlcow [~karl@nerval.la-grange.net] has joined #whatwg
  241. # 04:07 -!- nonge__ [~nonge@p5082A178.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
  242. # 04:09 -!- ezoe [~ezoe@112-68-244-35f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
  243. # 04:15 -!- hdhoang [~hdhoang@203.210.203.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
  244. # 04:16 -!- hdhoang [~hdhoang@2406:a000:f0ff:fffe::3461] has joined #whatwg
  245. # 04:18 -!- pdr2 [~pdr2@nat/google/x-peyarxtqerdqvrgq] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
  246. # 04:19 -!- nonge__ [~nonge@p5082A814.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #whatwg
  247. # 04:20 -!- tomasf [~tom@c-5ed9e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: tomasf]
  248. # 04:25 -!- KaOSoFt [~KaOSoFt@unaffiliated/kaosoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
  249. # 04:25 -!- cpearce [~chatzilla@ip-118-90-85-184.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #whatwg
  250. # 04:30 -!- shepazu [~schepers@pool-71-174-254-88.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #whatwg
  251. # 04:32 -!- hij1nx [~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #whatwg
  252. # 04:35 -!- KaOSoFt [~KaOSoFt@unaffiliated/kaosoft] has joined #whatwg
  253. # 04:35 -!- jwalden [~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.17/20110428205629]]
  254. # 04:43 -!- temp01 [~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
  255. # 04:47 -!- temp01 [~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01] has joined #whatwg
  256. # 04:47 -!- karlcow [~karl@nerval.la-grange.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
  257. # 04:51 -!- Thezilch [~fuz007@cpe-76-173-187-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #whatwg
  258. # 04:58 -!- dhx1 [~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #whatwg
  259. # 05:18 -!- Rik` [~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  260. # 05:19 -!- Rik` [~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee] has joined #whatwg
  261. # 05:25 -!- Rik` [~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  262. # 05:30 -!- nielsle [~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk] has joined #whatwg
  263. # 05:32 -!- davidwalsh [~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name]
  264. # 05:33 -!- Rik` [~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee] has joined #whatwg
  265. # 05:39 -!- KaOSoFt [~KaOSoFt@unaffiliated/kaosoft] has quit [Quit: Liberty is the right to choose, freedom is the result of that choice.]
  266. # 05:40 -!- nielsle [~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
  267. # 05:43 -!- nielsle [~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk] has joined #whatwg
  268. # 05:45 -!- weinig [~weinig@17.203.15.198] has quit [Quit: weinig]
  269. # 05:47 -!- othermaciej [~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: othermaciej]
  270. # 06:14 -!- hdhoang [~hdhoang@2406:a000:f0ff:fffe::3461] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
  271. # 06:22 -!- hdhoang [~hdhoang@203.210.203.156] has joined #whatwg
  272. # 06:54 -!- dbaron [~dbaron@173-228-28-228.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.]
  273. # 06:55 -!- Yuhong [~chatzilla@50-47-173-54.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #whatwg
  274. # 07:00 -!- ezoe [~ezoe@203-140-88-111f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #whatwg
  275. # 07:05 -!- Yuhong [~chatzilla@50-47-173-54.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]]
  276. # 07:06 -!- espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces0145.res.insa-lyon.fr] has quit [Quit: espadrine]
  277. # 07:20 -!- chriseppstein [~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: chriseppstein]
  278. # 07:27 -!- annevk [~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com] has joined #whatwg
  279. # 07:47 -!- ezoe [~ezoe@203-140-88-111f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
  280. # 07:47 -!- temp01 [~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
  281. # 07:48 -!- temp01 [~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01] has joined #whatwg
  282. # 07:50 < annevk> Hixie, yeah, maybe it should
  283. # 07:51 < annevk> Hixie, and at some point CORS too, and then someone should probably try to extract fetching into a separate core spec
  284. # 07:51 < Hixie> yeah
  285. # 07:51 < Hixie> let's do that all at once
  286. # 07:51 < annevk> :)
  287. # 07:51 < Hixie> but not right away :-)
  288. # 07:51 < annevk> yeah
  289. # 07:54 < annevk> anyone wants an invite for IRCCloud?
  290. # 07:54 < annevk> while in beta it is free
  291. # 08:01 < Hixie> what's IRCCloud?
  292. # 08:05 < annevk> https://irccloud.com/about
  293. # 08:06 < annevk> I will probably only use it for as long as krijn's server is down
  294. # 08:09 < Hixie> oh, i see
  295. # 08:09 < Hixie> just get some server somewhere you can put irssi and screen on
  296. # 08:12 < twisted> yo :) I got a weird thing going on in Gecko browsers on a page concerning css. It's weird cause the same CSS works on other pages, http://gemetria.bastardoperatorfromhell.org/~jakoury/index.php?p=nieuws is the website, http://gemetria.bastardoperatorfromhell.org/~twisted/skitch/firefox-20110702-025016.png is what it looks like in Firefox 4 and http://gemetria.bastardoperatorfromhell.org/~twisted/skitch/Chrome-20110702-025039.png that's in Chrome what it's s
  297. # 08:13 < twisted> someone over in #css helped me track it down to #top-footer:after {}
  298. # 08:14 < twisted> it's *white* the moment I swap it to :before and add a dot in the content, but then the other pages break and the website gets 10px longer in Chrome (so does Firefox btw)
  299. # 08:15 < twisted> http://browsershots.org/http://gemetria.bastardoperatorfromhell.org/~jakoury/index.php?p=nieuws are some more browser screenshots :)
  300. # 08:41 -!- CvP [~CvP@123.49.20.181] has joined #whatwg
  301. # 08:42 -!- fixl [~fixl@124-170-2-206.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/]
  302. # 08:43 -!- MikeSmith_ [~MikeSmith@EM1-112-25-122.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #whatwg
  303. # 08:46 -!- MikeSmith [~MikeSmith@EM1-112-214-183.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
  304. # 08:46 -!- MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  305. # 08:48 -!- jochen__ [~jochen@nat/google/x-kvdlftqdeomufscq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  306. # 08:48 -!- jochen__ [~jochen@nat/google/x-daosrwyytyosavin] has joined #whatwg
  307. # 08:59 < annevk> is there a way to set a base URL in a bash script so you can run it from any directory without issues?
  308. # 09:04 < twisted> annevk: what do you mean? a var?
  309. # 09:04 < twisted> annevk: http://pastebin.com/SgyW8kuc that idea?
  310. # 09:08 < annevk> my bash script has stuff like python file
  311. # 09:09 < annevk> and also "script" where "script" tries to read something from the current directory
  312. # 09:09 < annevk> however this currently fails if you call the bash script from a parent directory
  313. # 09:09 < twisted> the pwd command shows you what path your currently in
  314. # 09:10 < twisted> http://www.manpagez.com/man/1/pwd/
  315. # 09:10 < annevk> that's cool, but how I can set a path the bash script should act it is in?
  316. # 09:10 < twisted> a basepath var could work
  317. # 09:11 < twisted> if it starts with /
  318. # 09:11 < twisted> it's an absolute path
  319. # 09:11 < twisted> and can never change
  320. # 09:11 < twisted> so instead of: project/script/dir/bla you do /home/username/project/script/dir/bla
  321. # 09:11 < twisted> same dir, just more specific
  322. # 09:11 < twisted> ~/project/script/dir/bla could also work
  323. # 09:12 < twisted> as long as the executing users homedir is actually /home/username
  324. # 09:12 < twisted> just curious btw, did you on accident or on purpose ask this in this channel? :)
  325. # 09:13 -!- Maurice [copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #whatwg
  326. # 09:18 < annevk> on purpose :)
  327. # 09:18 * annevk goes to try basepath
  328. # 09:21 < zewt> annevk: er ... cd? heh
  329. # 09:21 < twisted> annevk: just try: basepath="dir" \n exec="$basepath/script.py"
  330. # 09:22 < annevk> yeah see that does not work
  331. # 09:22 < annevk> some of the relatives are assumed by the script
  332. # 09:22 < annevk> zewt, yeah I could, but then I have to cd in and out all the time
  333. # 09:22 < annevk> I suppose I could move a few other things around instead
  334. # 09:23 < zewt> welcome to shell scripting, not exactly the bleeding edge of scripting :P
  335. # 09:23 < twisted> annevk: what does not work?
  336. # 09:24 < zewt> can do eg. dir=`pwd`; cd wherever; stuff "$dir/file"
  337. # 09:24 < zewt> or (cd wherever && stuff) to run in another directory without having to cd back every time
  338. # 09:26 < annevk> twisted, I cannot add $basepath for all relative links
  339. # 09:26 < annevk> twisted, not all relative links are in the bash script itself
  340. # 09:26 < annevk> I'll solve it another way
  341. # 09:26 < annevk> no worries
  342. # 09:26 < twisted> hmm
  343. # 09:27 < twisted> annevk: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/59895/can-a-bash-script-tell-what-directory-its-stored-in
  344. # 09:33 < annevk> Hixie, "Constructing the form data set" uses something called "submitter"
  345. # 09:33 < annevk> Hixie, can that be made more explicit so I can set that to null or something when I use that algorithm in XMLHttpRequest?
  346. # 09:48 -!- Maurice [copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit []
  347. # 09:49 < annevk> matjas, you filed a bug on the input event not firing, but there is no specification that requires it fires for contenteditable-areas
  348. # 09:49 < annevk> matjas, that is a WebKit extension, though I guess it is one we should adopt
  349. # 09:49 < twisted> anyone here btw an idea for my problem?
  350. # 09:50 < twisted> I posted it here 1hour 36min ago
  351. # 09:51 * annevk looks
  352. # 09:54 < annevk> twisted, is it to clear floats?
  353. # 09:54 < annevk> twisted, the :after thingie?
  354. # 09:54 < annevk> twisted, could try http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/03/clearing-floats
  355. # 09:56 -!- niftylettuce [~niftylett@cpe-069-134-067-010.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #whatwg
  356. # 09:56 -!- nessy [~Adium@124-168-149-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #whatwg
  357. # 09:56 < twisted> annevk: well what I don't get is why it works on all the other pages
  358. # 09:56 < twisted> same code
  359. # 10:01 < annevk> maybe some conflicting CSS?
  360. # 10:03 < twisted> hmm
  361. # 10:04 < twisted> gonna have to firebug the hell out of it :p
  362. # 10:05 -!- nessy [~Adium@124-168-149-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
  363. # 10:05 < twisted> it's weird cause if I swap it to :before it works
  364. # 10:06 < twisted> but then it shifts 10px down in total
  365. # 10:07 < twisted> it's suspicious...
  366. # 10:08 < twisted> ik trek wel ff de css door de validator
  367. # 10:08 -!- ZombieLoffe [~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe] has joined #whatwg
  368. # 10:10 -!- jacobolus [~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #whatwg
  369. # 10:10 < twisted> hmm... I used to have a reallly good css tidy app
  370. # 10:10 < twisted> I think it was called Top Style Pro
  371. # 10:11 < twisted> but it's windows only :(
  372. # 10:11 -!- niftylettuce [~niftylett@cpe-069-134-067-010.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  373. # 10:12 -!- krijnh [~krijnhoet@83.160.77.30] has joined #whatwg
  374. # [BEEP!]
  375. # [11:16] <annevk> whoa
  376. # [11:16] <annevk> it's alive
  377. # [11:17] <annevk> krijn, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ is not updating it seems
  378. # [11:17] <twisted> haha funny to see how web dev's themselves usually have boring websites :p
  379. # [11:17] <twisted> 'boring' in the sense how a designer would look at it
  380. # [11:18] <annevk> I was about to say, it's pretty interesting otherwise :)
  381. # [11:18] <twisted> for me, the only requirement of a website is that it works properly in lynx/links2
  382. # [11:19] <twisted> cause, _IF_ I'm booting into Linux and my X.org #%^@&# up again I can at least browse the web
  383. # [11:22] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  384. # [11:23] <matjas> annevk: I see. +1 on adopting that. Would you mind leaving a comment on the Fx bug as well, saying just that?
  385. # [11:23] <krijnh> Si the ping?
  386. # [11:23] <krijnh> Awesome
  387. # [11:24] <krijnh> Can someone send me the logs since the 27th?
  388. # [11:25] <twisted> very interesting
  389. # [11:25] <twisted> http://gemetria.bastardoperatorfromhell.org/~jakoury/index.php?p=portfolio
  390. # [11:26] <twisted> on that page I introduced the same bug now
  391. # [11:26] <twisted> by changing the padding-top from 1em to 0;
  392. # [11:26] <twisted> in #portDetail
  393. # [11:27] <annevk> Philip`, krijn needs logs
  394. # [11:27] <matjas> annevk: ty
  395. # [11:28] <krijnh> Philip`: firstnamelastname @ gmail.com :) Tia! I'm off now, but will update the logs when I get them
  396. # [11:28] <twisted> hmm
  397. # [11:28] <twisted> well, I 'fixed' it
  398. # [11:28] <twisted> but now I see a small... dot
  399. # [11:28] <twisted> lol
  400. # [11:29] <twisted> isn't there some invisible unicode char that I could use?
  401. # [11:29] <twisted> oh of course
  402. # [11:29] <twisted> *grr*
  403. # [11:30] <twisted> whoo :D
  404. # [11:30] <twisted> \o/
  405. # [11:30] <twisted> annevk: thanks eventually your http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html reminded me to use visibility: hidden;
  406. # [11:30] <twisted> it now works
  407. # [11:30] <twisted> but, what I still don't understand why Firefox requires a :before
  408. # [11:31] <twisted> but until I introduced my new 'bug' into Chrome... Chrome didn't need a :before and now it does too
  409. # [11:31] <twisted> so cross-browser weirdness me thinks :p
  410. # [11:32] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  411. # [11:35] <twisted> is there by chance, a css validator that takes in account browser specific properties?
  412. # [11:37] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  413. # [11:37] <twisted> hmm maybe someone here can enlighten me, what exactly is the advantage of doing this: http://www.greywyvern.com/code/php/binary2base64
  414. # [11:38] <twisted> convert small to medium sized images to base64
  415. # [11:40] <matjas> annevk: I’m confused — http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#event-handlers-on-elements,-document-objects,-and-window-objects lists `oninput` as one of the “event handlers (and their corresponding event handler event types) that must be supported by all HTML elements, as both content attributes and IDL attributes, and on Document and Window objects, as I
  416. # [11:40] <matjas> DL attributes”
  417. # [11:41] <annevk> event handlers are just that
  418. # [11:41] <annevk> event handlers
  419. # [11:41] <annevk> they mean nothing with respect to where and when such events are dispatched
  420. # [11:42] <matjas> I see
  421. # [11:42] <matjas> where does it say when `oninput` should be dispatched?
  422. # [11:43] <annevk> it says input is dispatched
  423. # [11:43] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  424. # [11:44] <annevk> search for "named input" to find instances
  425. # [11:45] <matjas> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-input-element-attributes.html#event-input-input
  426. # [11:48] * Quits: payman (~payman@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  427. # [11:53] <twisted> http://procssor.com/ that is really sweet
  428. # [11:54] <matjas> annevk: filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13118, thanks!
  429. # [11:55] <annevk> matjas, one of these days you should teach people about onevent versus event
  430. # [11:56] <annevk> matjas, you're not the first to make the mistake
  431. # [11:56] <matjas> event handlers vs. events
  432. # [11:56] <matjas> inorite
  433. # [11:58] <matjas> annevk: onevent = event handler, right? so the bug subject should’ve been “consider firing the input event…”?
  434. # [11:59] * Joins: dirkpennings (~Vuurbal@240-216-164-193.fiber.trined.nl)
  435. # [11:59] <annevk> yes
  436. # [12:00] <annevk> there's no such thing as onxxx events
  437. # [12:01] <matjas> annevk: maybe *you* should write about it, seeing as you blogged about the “ALT tag” and tags vs. elements before </hint>
  438. # [12:01] * matjas doesn’t know shit
  439. # [12:04] <annevk> i wouldn't say that
  440. # [12:04] <annevk> but I guess I can, but not today
  441. # [12:04] <annevk> today is another Anolis day
  442. # [12:06] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee) (Remote host closed the connection)
  443. # [12:07] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee)
  444. # [12:08] <matjas> annevk: all I can come up with is “`onclick` is an event handler. `click` is the event. When the event fires, the respective event handlers are executed.”
  445. # [12:09] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.168.11)
  446. # [12:09] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee) (Remote host closed the connection)
  447. # [12:13] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee)
  448. # [12:14] <matjas> needs moar event handler content attributes
  449. # [12:18] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.168.11) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  450. # [12:23] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-85-184.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  451. # [12:23] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@203.210.203.156) (Quit: Leaving.)
  452. # [12:25] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  453. # [12:29] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Quit: OMG, YOU KILLED OPPO!)
  454. # [12:30] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  455. # [12:33] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.168.11)
  456. # [12:34] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  457. # [12:48] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.168.11) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  458. # [12:49] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.168.11)
  459. # [12:52] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  460. # [12:57] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.20.181) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  461. # [13:00] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.20.41)
  462. # [13:10] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Quit: OMG, YOU KILLED OPPO!)
  463. # [13:15] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-45-105.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  464. # [13:19] <smaug____> what does "When the X binding applies to an Y" mean
  465. # [13:19] <smaug____> I mean, where is the CSS binding defined
  466. # [13:21] <annevk> I think it means there is some concept of an internal binding
  467. # [13:21] <annevk> At least, if you are talking about the HTML rendering section
  468. # [13:21] <smaug____> yeah, I am
  469. # [13:22] <smaug____> I just don't see where for example "button" binding is defined
  470. # [13:22] <smaug____> ah, it is user-agent-defined value
  471. # [13:22] <smaug____> ok
  472. # [13:22] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#introduction-15
  473. # [13:24] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-91-7f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  474. # [13:43] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  475. # [13:44] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com)
  476. # [13:44] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  477. # [13:44] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-45-105.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  478. # [13:44] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com)
  479. # [13:44] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  480. # [13:45] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com)
  481. # [13:45] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  482. # [13:45] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com)
  483. # [13:45] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  484. # [13:45] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com)
  485. # [13:45] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  486. # [13:46] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@114.80-203-92.nextgentel.com)
  487. # [13:50] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-5ed9e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  488. # [14:06] <annevk> what is up with all the validator bugs?
  489. # [14:06] <annevk> oh hey Ms2ger!
  490. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> Ohai :)
  491. # [14:08] <annevk> can you associate my name with my account on specification-data?
  492. # [14:09] <annevk> apparently I can't do that with my current rights
  493. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> I just did that
  494. # [14:11] * Joins: cygri (~cygri@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  495. # [14:12] <Ms2ger> And for anolis, I'd rather not take your patch, but I made xspecxref just ignore that regex
  496. # [14:12] <annevk> Ms2ger, also, Anolis seems to mangle the encoding problem
  497. # [14:12] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ee) (Remote host closed the connection)
  498. # [14:13] <annevk> Ms2ger, Bjoern's name is not coming out right
  499. # [14:13] <annevk> (I removed the ascii config line)
  500. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Maybe declaring your encoding would help?
  501. # [14:17] <Ms2ger> Also, I'd suggest xreffing case-sensitive/ASCII case-insensitive to domcore
  502. # [14:17] <Ms2ger> And fix the xref in Unless otherwise stated...
  503. # [14:18] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  504. # [14:19] <annevk> Where do you declare the encoding?
  505. # [14:23] <Ms2ger> It should pick up <meta charset> in the source
  506. # [14:24] <annevk> Can <!-- status --> be made to work or should I copy that somehow?
  507. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> What's <!-- status -->?
  508. # [14:27] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules?uimode=filter#document-status
  509. # [14:28] * annevk copies from CSSOM View
  510. # [14:31] <Ms2ger> Oh
  511. # [14:31] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.48)
  512. # [14:31] <Ms2ger> I could probably add that
  513. # [14:32] <annevk> a few things depend on the group
  514. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> Fun
  515. # [14:32] <annevk> I added it manually, not too much trouble
  516. # [14:33] * Quits: _jgr (~jgr@CPE-124-185-195-126.lns6.cha.bigpond.net.au) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  517. # [14:34] * Quits: drewcode (~chatzilla@24-107-73-144.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  518. # [14:48] <annevk> Ms2ger, if there are no non-normative references the code there does not validate
  519. # [14:49] <annevk> <dl></dl> does not work for the W3C
  520. # [15:05] <Ms2ger> Fixed, I think
  521. # [15:06] <annevk> confirmed
  522. # [15:07] <Ms2ger> I'm off now, I'll check back later if you found more bugs :)
  523. # [15:20] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM1-112-25-122.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  524. # [15:32] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  525. # [15:36] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  526. # [15:37] <annevk> hmm defining garbage collection policies sucks
  527. # [15:57] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@p4057-ipbf1904marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  528. # [16:13] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.168.11) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  529. # [16:25] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.88.153)
  530. # [16:34] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com) (Quit: hij1nx)
  531. # [16:36] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com)
  532. # [16:38] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  533. # [16:54] <The_8472> annevk, look at some JVMs. they're usually a good reference point
  534. # [16:55] <The_8472> assuming you're talking about GC for memory management and not some other kind of resources
  535. # [16:56] * Quits: Rubennn (~quassel@2a02:348:33:5823::1) (Remote host closed the connection)
  536. # [16:56] * Joins: Rubennn (~quassel@2a02:348:33:5823::1)
  537. # [16:59] <annevk> for the XHR spec
  538. # [16:59] <annevk> and XHR in general
  539. # [17:04] * Quits: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
  540. # [17:10] * Joins: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM1-112-181-143.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  541. # [17:19] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~mikesmith@EM1-112-182-192.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  542. # [17:20] * Quits: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM1-112-181-143.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  543. # [17:24] * Quits: MikeSmith_ (~mikesmith@EM1-112-182-192.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  544. # [17:27] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.48) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  545. # [17:30] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@AMontsouris-157-1-108-172.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  546. # [17:37] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@64.134.240.246)
  547. # [17:56] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp91-122-181-235.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  548. # [18:01] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@pool-71-174-254-88.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: shepazu)
  549. # [18:12] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@64.134.240.246) (Quit: hij1nx)
  550. # [18:13] * Joins: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM111-188-67-232.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  551. # [18:29] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  552. # [18:30] * Joins: xtoph (~xtoph@213.47.185.206)
  553. # [18:36] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed) (Remote host closed the connection)
  554. # [18:36] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  555. # [18:40] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed) (Remote host closed the connection)
  556. # [18:40] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  557. # [18:42] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed) (Remote host closed the connection)
  558. # [18:42] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  559. # [18:44] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  560. # [18:45] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed) (Remote host closed the connection)
  561. # [18:48] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net)
  562. # [18:50] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  563. # [18:53] * Quits: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM111-188-67-232.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  564. # [18:54] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  565. # [18:54] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net)
  566. # [19:01] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  567. # [19:01] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net)
  568. # [19:02] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  569. # [19:04] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  570. # [19:04] <annevk> http://rniwa.com/editing/undomanager.html
  571. # [19:04] <annevk> via Google+
  572. # [19:05] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed) (Remote host closed the connection)
  573. # [19:06] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  574. # [19:11] <annevk> AryehGregor, Ms2ger, https://rniwa.com/2011-06-26/position-and-anchor-types/
  575. # [19:11] <annevk> Peter`, ^^
  576. # [19:23] * Joins: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM1-112-7-159.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  577. # [19:38] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@p4057-ipbf1904marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
  578. # [19:39] <annevk> Ms2ger, so should CORS rely on DOM Core for case-sensitive and such?
  579. # [19:39] <annevk> or define those terms itself?
  580. # [19:40] <Ms2ger> I dunno
  581. # [19:53] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  582. # [19:55] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.48)
  583. # [19:57] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-71-202-136-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  584. # [19:58] * Quits: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM1-112-7-159.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: hands busy doing other things)
  585. # [20:06] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@AMontsouris-157-1-108-172.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  586. # [20:07] * Joins: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM1-112-7-159.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  587. # [20:16] <Hixie> annevk: file a bug, not around to edit right now
  588. # [20:36] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-91-7f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  589. # [20:37] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com)
  590. # [20:38] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  591. # [20:43] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  592. # [20:47] * Quits: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM1-112-7-159.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: hands busy doing other things)
  593. # [20:51] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com) (Quit: hij1nx)
  594. # [20:54] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-12.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  595. # [20:54] * Joins: pdr2 (~pdr2@75-144-232-190-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  596. # [20:55] * Quits: pdr2 (~pdr2@75-144-232-190-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  597. # [20:55] * Joins: pdr2 (~pdr2@nat/google/x-jnbmthnodgimtzsk)
  598. # [20:55] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  599. # [21:29] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3)
  600. # [21:40] <zewt> this floaty status bar fad in browsers seriously needs to end :| browsers leaking their ui into the page's space is terrible
  601. # [21:43] <Philip`> Browsers seem to like competing on how little UI space they take, then I guess they realise later they've actually got to display some information to the user so it squeezes out into the page
  602. # [21:44] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  603. # [21:44] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  604. # [21:48] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  605. # [21:53] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-12.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  606. # [22:28] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  607. # [22:32] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  608. # [22:38] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  609. # [22:46] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3) (Quit: hij1nx)
  610. # [22:46] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.88.153) (Quit: nn)
  611. # [22:49] * Quits: Thezilch (~fuz007@cpe-76-173-187-91.socal.res.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  612. # [22:49] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-85-184.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  613. # [22:55] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  614. # [22:55] * Joins: seventh (seventh@209.99.2.37)
  615. # [22:59] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3)
  616. # [23:08] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-85-184.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  617. # [23:41] <erlehmann> what is the earliest possible event handler a media element can seek by changing currentTime? canplay does not work.
  618. # [23:42] * Quits: xtoph (~xtoph@213.47.185.206)
  619. # [23:47] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@cpe-72-184-192-77.tampabay.res.rr.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330])
  620. # [23:47] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  621. # [23:47] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Client Quit)
  622. # [23:54] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-12.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  623. # [23:55] <matjas> Firefox and WebKit seem to convert \r into \n when used in an attribute value. Opera respects the \r. Does the spec say anything about this?
  624. # [23:55] <matjas> test: data:text/html;charset=utf-8,<p id%3D"%0D">
  625. # [23:55] <matjas> then: document.querySelector('p').id == '\r' // false
  626. # [23:55] <matjas> document.querySelector('p').id == '\n' // true
  627. # [23:56] <bga_> same with textarea.value iirc
  628. # [23:57] <matjas> bga_: yeah, seems to be the case for all attributes and their respective properties
  629. # [23:57] <matjas> bga_: it does however seem to respect the \r if you set it through JS
  630. # Session Close: Sun Jul 03 00:00:00 2011

The end :)