/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 05 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:23] <annevk-cloud> smaug____, yeah, I never think that made a lot of sense to be honest
  7. # [00:23] <annevk-cloud> smaug____, especially the idea of menu being for system menus rather than typical dropdown menus websites have
  8. # [00:24] <annevk-cloud> bit out of touch with what authors needs
  9. # [00:24] <annevk-cloud> anyway, bedtime
  10. # [00:24] <smaug____> annevk-cloud: also the creation of menus is strange
  11. # [00:24] <smaug____> and when to use <command> and when something else etc.
  12. # [00:25] <smaug____> and yeah, it is late here too
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  18. # [00:34] <rroyog> hi
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  26. # [01:05] <dglazkov> is sXBL dead?
  27. # [01:05] <heycam> I think so
  28. # [01:06] <dglazkov> k
  29. # [01:06] <dglazkov> what's that stuff you're working on, heycam?
  30. # [01:07] <heycam> dglazkov, which stuff do you mean? :)
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  36. # [01:08] <dglazkov> heycam: the SVG shadow DOM stuff
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  38. # [01:09] <heycam> dglazkov, so I did implement sXBL once
  39. # [01:10] <heycam> but I don't think it got used beyond me writing a couple of simple demos for it
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  41. # [01:12] <dglazkov> heycam: where?
  42. # [01:12] <heycam> the demos themselves are probably lost in time
  43. # [01:12] <heycam> the implementation is in Apache Batik, still
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  47. # [01:18] * dglazkov calls heycam a "crazy person".
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  49. # [01:19] <heycam> if by "crazy" you mean "naively thinking that sXBL was the future of componentisation of SVG content", then sure :)
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  92. # [04:53] <shetech> As to democracies, in many ways the US still is, but in many critical ways, it's falling apart. Witness the Supreme Court decision to allow corporations to donate unlimited amounts to candidates. Scary, that. But. No political system is flawless, or 100% what it says it is. So we'll watch the fireworks anyway.
  93. # [04:53] <shetech> Enough off-topic stuff for me. I'm still a noob here.
  94. # [04:53] <shetech> :)
  95. # [04:54] <kbrosnan> #defocus is the general discussion channel
  96. # [04:55] <shetech> Heh. Thanks. I so do NOT want to go there and talk politics!
  97. # [04:55] * shetech bursts into flames just thinking abou tit
  98. # [04:55] <shetech> about it, even
  99. # [04:55] <shetech> yoiks
  100. # [04:59] <shetech> And with that, I depart to drink wine, watch fireworks and people
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  164. # [10:12] <asmodai> hsivonen: around by chance?
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  166. # [10:13] <asmodai> hsivonen: Got a small display nit in Firefox 7 (compared to 5 and 6) and wonder if you might have insight if this is intended or not.
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  186. # [11:33] <annevk> <progress>.max currently just reflects per the specification. That is a bug right?
  187. # [11:33] <annevk> Is it a known bug?
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  215. # [13:11] <smaug____> annevk: what you mean with "... both have been corrected."
  216. # [13:11] <smaug____> does the spec allow link activation with untrusted click?
  217. # [13:11] <smaug____> if yes, then that is a very recent change
  218. # [13:13] <annevk> no it doesn't
  219. # [13:13] <annevk> that's the correction
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  221. # [13:13] <annevk> you obviously think it should work, but Ian, Jonas and I disagree
  222. # [13:14] <smaug____> interesting that you want to spec something that no browser do
  223. # [13:15] <smaug____> hmm
  224. # [13:15] <annevk> I don't think all browsers interoperate actually
  225. # [13:15] <smaug____> <a> element's click handling does allow untrusted click
  226. # [13:16] <smaug____> hmm
  227. # [13:16] <smaug____> but ok, it is the activation behavior which is strangely spec'ed
  228. # [13:18] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12230
  229. # [13:18] <annevk> apparently when I tested before in Gecko it did not work for <a>
  230. # [13:19] <annevk> actually, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/866 still does not work in Gecko but does in other browsers
  231. # [13:19] <smaug____> IE, Gecko, Webkit and Opera have : synthetic click events on links cause navigation
  232. # [13:19] <smaug____> Gecko changed recently
  233. # [13:22] <annevk> it's funny how people keep claiming DOM3 Events is ready
  234. # [13:22] <annevk> it doesn't seem ready at all
  235. # [13:22] <annevk> every time I look it there's some flaw in it
  236. # [13:27] <annevk> smaug____, I was testing in today's nightly
  237. # [13:27] <annevk> smaug____, and Gecko is not following the link
  238. # [13:27] <smaug____> Gecko does follow the link
  239. # [13:28] <smaug____> http://mozilla.pettay.fi/moztests/a_click.html
  240. # [13:28] <smaug____> click the first button
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  242. # [13:29] <annevk> smaug____, it needs to be MouseEvent?
  243. # [13:29] <smaug____> it needs a mouse event yes
  244. # [13:29] <annevk> smaug____, see my link for an example that does not work in Gecko but works elsewhere
  245. # [13:29] <smaug____> aha, perhaps we should relax the restriction
  246. # [13:29] <smaug____> but that is not the point
  247. # [13:30] <annevk> the point is that DOM3 Events is a mess and that this behavior does not make much sense
  248. # [13:30] <smaug____> all the browsers follow the link when synthetic mouse click is dispatched
  249. # [13:30] <smaug____> this has nothing to do with DOM 3 Event
  250. # [13:30] <smaug____> the point is that HTML activation behavior is mess
  251. # [13:30] <smaug____> and doesn't reflect reality
  252. # [13:30] <smaug____> but does specify something which no browser implement
  253. # [13:31] <annevk> what browsers do now makes little sense
  254. # [13:31] <annevk> and is not relied upon
  255. # [13:31] <annevk> and browser vendors are open to change their impls to see if saner model can be made to work
  256. # [13:34] <smaug____> I don't understand why the current behavior doesn't make sense
  257. # [13:37] * smaug____ was going to think about command API today
  258. # [13:37] <smaug____> that has some good things, but also some very weird things in it
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  267. # [14:06] <wilhelm> Are there any publicly available test suites for the drag and drop API?
  268. # [14:07] * Joins: Plebby (~Plebby@ppp203-122-218-242.static.internode.on.net)
  269. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> annevk, I believe Gecko doesn't match the spec for progress.max, I doubt it's been filed
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  271. # [14:14] <Ms2ger> And I sure hope you're following the mutation events thread, because I tuned out a while ago
  272. # [14:15] <annevk> Ms2ger, I am sort of following hoping someone comes up with something that everyone agrees to and then I'll write it down
  273. # [14:16] <Ms2ger> Or that
  274. # [14:21] <annevk> filed a bug on <progress>.max
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  279. # [14:38] <annevk> document.importNode(new DOMParser().parseFromString('<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Test</div>', 'text/xml').documentElement, true).tagName
  280. # [14:38] <annevk> hmm yeah we cover that
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  285. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> Should be DIV, I guess?
  286. # [14:48] <annevk> yup
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  289. # [14:53] <annevk> I wonder why there's no feedback from either WebKit or Gecko on <progress>.max
  290. # [14:53] <annevk> On setting to a "test" Gecko sets the content attribute to "NaN"; WebKit throws a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR
  291. # [14:53] <Rik`> annevk: I can summon volkmar if you want :)
  292. # [14:53] <annevk> a string*
  293. # [14:53] <annevk> Rik`, thanks, I added him to the bug
  294. # [14:54] <annevk> Rik`, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13139
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  296. # [14:54] <volkmar> gni ?
  297. # [14:55] <volkmar> annevk: i think there is a bug filed
  298. # [14:56] <Ms2ger> Is w3c-test.org failing to update again?
  299. # [14:56] <Ms2ger> volkmar, wasn't that just about meter?
  300. # [14:56] <volkmar> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11939
  301. # [14:56] <volkmar> but WONTFIX FTW :)
  302. # [14:56] <annevk> sweet
  303. # [14:57] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  304. # [14:57] <volkmar> annevk: but last I checked, Webkit was following the specs
  305. # [14:58] <annevk> are you supposed to throw a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR?
  306. # [14:58] <annevk> oh maybe you are
  307. # [14:59] <annevk> since it's NaN
  308. # [14:59] <annevk> however, for <progress max=0> WebKit returns 1
  309. # [14:59] <annevk> for .max
  310. # [15:01] <volkmar> annevk: on setting, Gecko is following the rules for reflecting a double attribute
  311. # [15:01] <volkmar> so we do not throw if the value isn't supported
  312. # [15:02] <annevk> "Except where otherwise specified, if an IDL attribute that is a floating point number type (double) is assigned an Infinity or Not-a-Number (NaN) value, a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR exception must be raised."
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  315. # [15:02] <volkmar> oups :)
  316. # [15:05] <volkmar> annevk: then that's a bug in Gecko
  317. # [15:05] <volkmar> and that's my fault :)
  318. # [15:06] <annevk> still not sure about WebKit's behavior
  319. # [15:07] <volkmar> though, Gecko isn't doing that for all double attributes
  320. # [15:07] <volkmar> it's not specific to progress.max
  321. # [15:07] * Ms2ger expects a patch to reflect.js :)
  322. # [15:08] <volkmar> Ms2ger: might be :)
  323. # [15:08] <annevk> maybe the IDL attribute should be limited to positive integers?
  324. # [15:10] <volkmar> annevk: you mean unsigned long limited to non-negative numbers greater than zero?
  325. # [15:11] <annevk> guess that does not work here
  326. # [15:12] <volkmar> it could if we change progress.max type
  327. # [15:13] <annevk> the problem reported against Opera was <progress max=0>.max returning 0 rather than 1
  328. # [15:14] <annevk> it returns 1 in both Gecko and WebKit
  329. # [15:14] <annevk> so neither Gecko or WebKit follows the spec
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  356. # [16:52] <AryehGregor> Ugh, why does Bugzilla have mid-air collisions for stupid stuff like someone adding a CC?
  357. # [16:53] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-45-7.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
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  359. # [16:55] <AryehGregor> smaug____, I'm not currently planning on speccing the details of how selecting various things work, at least not for a while to come. It's really complicated, and it doesn't affect interop nearly as much as some of the other things I'm doing.
  360. # [16:55] <AryehGregor> As far as things like execCommand() are concerned, selections are purely DOM-based and generated content is ignored.
  361. # [16:55] <AryehGregor> Stringification of the selection should perhaps take account of it, but that's a minefield that I looked into for a while and then abandoned.
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  363. # [16:57] <smaug____> AryehGregor: ok
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  365. # [16:57] <smaug____> I was just doing some testing and noticed that selecting generated content works in some cases but not in others
  366. # [16:57] <smaug____> both in Gecko and Webkit
  367. # [16:58] <smaug____> Opera behaved consistently
  368. # [16:58] <smaug____> didn't try IE
  369. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> There are cases where that works in Gecko?
  370. # [16:59] <smaug____> let me find the testcase....
  371. # [17:01] <smaug____> Ms2ger: https://bug552707.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=543790 press ctrl+a in Gecko
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  373. # [17:02] <smaug____> also try webkit
  374. # [17:02] <smaug____> webkit's behavior is even more broken
  375. # [17:02] <Ms2ger> Huh
  376. # [17:02] <Ms2ger> Oh
  377. # [17:02] <smaug____> :)
  378. # [17:03] <Ms2ger> Compare with http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1059 in WebKit
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  380. # [17:04] <AryehGregor> Why is my Aurora build at 6.0a2 even after repeated updates? Isn't the "2" supposed to increment sometimes?
  381. # [17:04] <Ms2ger> No
  382. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> a1 == Nightly, a2 == Aurora, b1 == Beta
  383. # [17:06] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  384. # [17:06] <AryehGregor> Confusing.
  385. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> (At least, I think so)
  386. # [17:06] <AryehGregor> But I guess you were stuck because "a" and "b" were already used, and there are no letters in between.
  387. # [17:07] <AryehGregor> You could call nightlies x.0a, Aurora x.0au, beta x.0b.
  388. # [17:07] <AryehGregor> I guess the real info is the date in parentheses after the version.
  389. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> Also, I think UA sniffers wouldn't be happy with other letters
  390. # [17:12] * danheberden_ is now known as danheberden
  391. # [17:13] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
  392. # [17:16] <annevk> teehee http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-xml/2011Jul/0000.html
  393. # [17:24] * Joins: linclark (~clark@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  394. # [17:26] <Ms2ger> Hah, XSL:FO
  395. # [17:27] <linclark> in microdata, if you use itemref to point to an item that has an itemid, should that item's itemid be attached as an attribute of that item wherever it is referenced?
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  398. # [17:30] <annevk> Ms2ger, CSS WG still takes it into consideration when naming properties and such
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  400. # [17:30] <annevk> Ms2ger, it's real sad
  401. # [17:31] <annevk> (and potentially harmful)
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  404. # [17:31] <Ms2ger> What direction do XSL:FO gradients go?
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  406. # [17:34] <annevk> dunno, don't care
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  408. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> Opera people: can I import from preferences from Opera to Opera Next?
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  412. # [17:44] <hasather> AryehGregor: I think you have to do it manually by copying the profile dir
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  414. # [17:44] <AryehGregor> hasather, k.
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  419. # [17:59] <linclark> is Philip` foolip?
  420. # [18:00] <linclark> oh no
  421. # [18:00] <foolip> linclark, no, I'm J├Ągenstedt, Philip` is Taylor
  422. # [18:00] <foolip> we're both awesome, though
  423. # [18:00] <linclark> foolip: ha, good to know
  424. # [18:00] <linclark> foolip: I have a question about your microdata parser, do you have a minute?
  425. # [18:00] <foolip> sure
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  427. # [18:01] <linclark> so when I use itemref to refer to an item and that item has an itemid, the itemid doesn't show up as an attribute for the item
  428. # [18:01] <linclark> foolip: is this part of the spec... or is it not necessarily part of the spec
  429. # [18:02] <foolip> are you trying to set itemid by itemref'ing another element that sets itemid?
  430. # [18:02] <linclark> yeah, basically
  431. # [18:02] <foolip> itemref is for adding properties only, it doesn't influence itemid or itemtype
  432. # [18:03] <foolip> of course, you can still have itemid and itemtype on the properties you add, if they are themselves items
  433. # [18:03] <foolip> but it doesn't mean "look here for all item* attributes"
  434. # [18:04] <linclark> foolip: ok cool, that does make sense... is it stated explicitly in the spec?
  435. # [18:04] <linclark> I wasn't able to find it if it is
  436. # [18:05] <foolip> linclark, yes, see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#attr-itemref
  437. # [18:05] <foolip> also http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#crawl-the-properties for the full details about exactly how itemref is used
  438. # [18:06] <foolip> (note that the last part is likely to change in some way because Opera implemented it differently and asked Hixie to change it)
  439. # [18:06] <foolip> Hixie, or, did you interpret the last email as a request to change the spec? there's a testsuite on the way too, that tests for that behavior, if that might work as bait.
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  443. # [18:08] <linclark> foolip: I would have read "add that element to pending" and then "Remove an element from pending and let current be that element." to mean that the itemref elements are parsed in the same way as the original item
  444. # [18:08] <linclark> but then, I've never written a parser ;)
  445. # [18:08] <linclark> but the attr-itemref does specify name-value pairs
  446. # [18:08] <linclark> so makes sense
  447. # [18:09] <foolip> linclark, they're crawled in the same way, but this crawling algorithm is only for finding properties, it doesnt' involve itemid etc
  448. # [18:09] <linclark> foolip: ah, cool, thanks for the help :)
  449. # [18:09] <foolip> np
  450. # [18:09] <foolip> doing anything fun with microdata?
  451. # [18:09] <foolip> marking up your cat collection just like in the examples, I presume?
  452. # [18:10] <linclark> foolip: haha, indeed... I did start work on http://drupal.org/project/microdata
  453. # [18:10] <foolip> linclark, ah, you're involved with drupal?
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  455. # [18:10] <linclark> but I'm holding off on going into API review until the task force stuff is more clear
  456. # [18:10] <foolip> ah yes, I even read so in your Twitter profile just a few days ago
  457. # [18:11] <foolip> I wouldn't recommend waiting for the TF to come down with an answer to all of our worries
  458. # [18:11] <linclark> foolip: yeah, it's a tough decision... basically, it's hard to try to make all of this understandable to the general community
  459. # [18:11] <foolip> Microdata isn't going to change substantially since it's already implemented and shipped
  460. # [18:12] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  461. # [18:12] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  462. # [18:12] <foolip> but, of course drupal could wait it out in case Microdata turns out to be a turd nobody wants to play with
  463. # [18:12] <foolip> I'm sure there's lots of fun community politics to be played there as well :)
  464. # [18:13] <linclark> foolip: it definitely wouldn't be integrated into core for a while just based on the release cycle... so free to develop freely in contrib
  465. # [18:13] <foolip> sounds like fun hacking
  466. # [18:13] <linclark> foolip: indeed, though fortunately the Drupal community is generally convivial in their disagreements
  467. # [18:13] <foolip> linclark, is this you? https://plus.google.com/100047679106364060080/about
  468. # [18:14] <linclark> foolip: I also want to figure out how to parse microdata for use in aggregating data with the Views module
  469. # [18:14] <foolip> linclark, is it being parsed server-side?
  470. # [18:14] <linclark> foolip: yes, it will be
  471. # [18:14] <foolip> python?
  472. # [18:14] <linclark> foolip: PHP
  473. # [18:14] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  474. # [18:15] <foolip> hmm, is there even a HTML5 parser written in PHP yet?
  475. # [18:15] <Ms2ger> Boo ;)
  476. # [18:15] <Ms2ger> I think there was a PHP port of html5lib
  477. # [18:15] <foolip> hey look: http://soyrex.com/php-microdata/
  478. # [18:15] <linclark> oh hey, look at that!
  479. # [18:15] <foolip> I'd be surprised if it's up to date with the spec though
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  485. # [18:21] <linclark> foolip: oh yeah, and that google account is mine, though I haven't yet dug into the Google+ stuff
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  496. # [18:33] <jwalden> random gripe for Opera people here: it is absolutely infuriating that Ctrl+PgUp and Ctrl+PgDn don't switch tabs like they do in every other browser; and while I'm whingeing, let's throw in Ctrl+K not meaning search-bar, too
  497. # [18:33] <jwalden> :-)
  498. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> Yes
  499. # [18:34] * Ms2ger rages
  500. # [18:36] * AryehGregor agrees
  501. # [18:37] <gsnedders> jwalden: Those shortcuts vary across platform, IIRC
  502. # [18:37] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~mikesmith@EM114-48-49-137.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  503. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> At least on Linux, I observe the same behavior as jwalden: every browser but Opera supports it.
  504. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> I think IE9 on Windows doesn't support it either.
  505. # [18:38] <jwalden> pretty sure it does, I don't remember that pain point
  506. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> Doesn't on my laptop, just checked.
  507. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> It may be a linuxism
  508. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> Very possible.
  509. # [18:39] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Unless you change the shortcuts :P
  510. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> That's a very Opera response. :P
  511. # [18:40] <gsnedders> (seemingly ctrl+page{up,down} have done scroll viewport left/right for a while in Opera by default, so probably changing it would get people bitching)
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  514. # [18:42] * Philip` has got used to using 1/2 to switch tabs in Opera
  515. # [18:42] <Philip`> (which is fewer keypresses and therefore vastly superior)
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  517. # [18:43] * gsnedders has got used to using ctrl+page{up,down} to switch tabs in Opera
  518. # [18:43] * David_Bradbury has gotten used to using the mouse to navigate the OS :(
  519. # [18:44] <jwalden> hum, indeed it doesn't in IE9; shows how much I do any browsing on Windows
  520. # [18:45] * jwalden actually doesn't use Firefox much, somewhat out of a sense of "I should be familiar with what's out there", so he uses lots of different things now
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  522. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> hmm, apparently mobile safari automatically creates hyperlinks for things that look like phone numbers
  523. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> I hear it does
  524. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> so if you go to, e.g., this part of the spec:
  525. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#sourcing-in-band-text-tracks
  526. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> is creates a hyperlink for "4.8.10.12.2"
  527. # [18:54] <AryehGregor> Haha.
  528. # [18:58] <foolip> jwalden, agreed on both accounts and filed two bugs on Opera Desktop
  529. # [18:58] <jwalden> thanks :-)
  530. # [18:59] <jwalden> historically I've probably used Opera the least of the non-Firefox browsers, but the last week or two I've been using it a little harder, so running against that more
  531. # [18:59] <foolip> let's hope the desktop overlords agree with us
  532. # [19:00] <jwalden> shortcut compatibility was one of the big things Phoenix (!) got right, back in the day
  533. # [19:01] <jwalden> Safari's shortcuts on Mac were also Think-Differenty, but I used it little enough to not quite feel the pain
  534. # [19:02] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  535. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> I wonder why is it that developers of Web-platform game engines seem to also like to develop their own languages
  536. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://www.playmycode.com/docs/quby
  537. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> "JavaScript is missing lots of common features, such as classes. Quby includes these making programming games more straight forward. Its syntax is based on Ruby, a language well known to be easy to learn."
  538. # [19:07] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@203.210.153.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
  539. # [19:08] <zewt> heh, somehow it's unsurprising that someone who would think it's a good idea to come up with another obscure language would also like ruby
  540. # [19:09] * Joins: varga (~varga@195.91.87.57)
  541. # [19:10] <zewt> Philip`: opera's numbers-to-switch-tabs thing is really, seriously obnoxious--it's intruding into keys that should really be standardized as owned by web pages
  542. # [19:11] <zewt> i try to use numbers as hotkeys in UI and I get opera users complaining that they collide
  543. # [19:15] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-119-240-253-187.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  544. # [19:17] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Developers of non-web game engines usually seem to like making up their own languages, too - I guess it's part of the general wheel-reinvention mindset, since they can focus on what matches a small team's personal preferences in the short term and it's not like they're going to have to bother supporting it 5 years later as they'll have started from scratch on a new engine or two
  545. # [19:18] <zewt> a small team would have to be crazy to make their own language, heh
  546. # [19:19] <zewt> it's ... not exactly a small time investment
  547. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> ...Switzerland's Anti-PowerPoint Party (APPP)...
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  549. # [19:21] <beverloo> hacking something together does not necessarily take a lot of time, maintainability often is an issue though
  550. # [19:22] <beverloo> companies like R* developed own internal languages (in their case, SCM), deployed it to a few (5-10) games and then switch to something different
  551. # [19:23] <beverloo> in their case Lua. Other companies use Pawn or Squirrel or something similar. It's just convenient for mission scripting
  552. # [19:24] <zewt> well, lua's the major reason hacking together a proprietary language is generally a bad idea :P
  553. # [19:24] <beverloo> lua's just another language which syntax you either like or dislike
  554. # [19:24] <beverloo> and mission scripting isn't a role for software engineers, apparently
  555. # [19:25] <zewt> there isn't much that competes with lua in its niche
  556. # [19:25] <Philip`> zewt: Toy languages are pretty easy to make
  557. # [19:26] <zewt> Philip`: but you don't want a toy language to develop production software
  558. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> Why not?
  559. # [19:27] <zewt> what?
  560. # [19:27] <Philip`> As long as you end up with a shippable product, who cares?
  561. # [19:27] <beverloo> zewt, Squirrel, Pawn, GameMonkey, Angelscript, just to name a few
  562. # [19:27] <zewt> beverloo: never heard of any of them
  563. # [19:27] <beverloo> Mozilla's David Anderson used to spent time working on Pawn
  564. # [19:28] <beverloo> they're used in various games, you just never see them
  565. # [19:28] <beverloo> fortunately, often :p
  566. # [19:28] <zewt> Philip`: because it's harder to end up with a shippable product with half-baked tools
  567. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I wonder how successful most game engines actually are. I mean, the Web-platform-based ones cropping up lately mostly seem like proofs of concept that just get used to develop demos
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  569. # [19:30] <beverloo> MikeSmith, that depends on the type of game. Engines like Unreal are great for first-person shooters, whereas Rockstar made their own engines (Renderware in the past, now RAGE) for sandbox-like games
  570. # [19:30] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-45-7.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  571. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> I see
  572. # [19:30] <beverloo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_Engine
  573. # [19:30] <Philip`> zewt: It's easier to write half-baked tools than fully-baked tools though, particularly since you can get a half-baked tool up and running pretty quickly and then your artists/designers learn all the quirks and learn which buttons not press because they crash and then there's no need to improve the tools any further
  574. # [19:31] <beverloo> that's a major difference between the web and games; you ship a game and you're done with it. Perhaps an extension later on, but that often gets made by the same team
  575. # [19:31] <zewt> it's much easier and quicker to use existing fully-baked tools, especially when the people using them already know how they work
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  577. # [19:34] <zewt> of course, for web games you're more limited--you really don't want to be layering another scripting language on top of JS, heh
  578. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> details about the Twitter backend at http://www.infoq.com/articles/twitter-java-use are interesting
  579. # [19:36] <zewt> ew
  580. # [19:36] <zewt> if my choices are ruby or java, I think I may choose jumping out the window
  581. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> heh
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  584. # [19:41] <Philip`> zewt: Environments change frequently enough that I imagine it's rare to have fully-baked tools that you can drop in with no integration effort - you might be developing for some unusual CPU architecture or relying on some custom memory management scheme or whatever, and trying to port an existing scripting engine is a more daunting task than starting from scratch
  585. # [19:42] <zewt> eh, that's a stretch
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  587. # [19:44] <zewt> maybe if you're developing for the SNES and you have 128K to work with, but I've used Lua on the PS2 without any difficulty
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  589. # [19:47] <Philip`> Lua seems rare in its suitability, compared to most other real languages (Python, JS, etc) that are a much bigger pain to embed
  590. # [19:48] <zewt> well, lua is designed for it, python isn't
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  592. # [19:54] <Philip`> Seems like choice is limited if you don't like Lua :-(
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  650. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> smaug____, did you ever get responses from IE or WebKit on insertNode()?
  651. # [22:47] <smaug____> not yet
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  653. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> k.
  654. # [22:48] <smaug____> well, some webkit developer just referred to Hixie's comment abou insertNode
  655. # [22:48] <smaug____> but nothing from IE yet
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  673. # [23:25] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@49.178.3.232)
  674. # [23:26] * Quits: robreact (~chatzilla@smtp1bos2.globalmediaxchange.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  675. # [23:29] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  676. # [23:32] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c)
  677. # [23:38] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  678. # [23:38] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  679. # [23:47] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  680. # [23:55] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.54) (Quit: charlvn)
  681. # [23:56] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  682. # [23:57] * Joins: nessy1 (~Adium@49.181.248.91)
  683. # Session Close: Wed Jul 06 00:00:00 2011

The end :)