/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-06 / end

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  125. # [06:30] <jamesr> anyone around? looking at a canvas patch for webkit and it looks like firefox does the wrong thing for (stroke|fill)Text when maxWidth is specified as 0
  126. # [06:30] <jamesr> it does the draw as if the value was not specified at all
  127. # [06:32] <jamesr> wondering if it's just an oversight or if it's difficult to distinguish between not-specified numbers and '0' in that idl implementation
  128. # [06:32] <roc> I think it's our bug
  129. # [06:32] <roc> if (aMaxWidth > 0 && totalWidth > aMaxWidth) {
  130. # [06:34] <jamesr> opera gets 0 right but not negative numbers
  131. # [06:34] <jamesr> roc: guessing aMaxWidth is already coerced to a numerical type at that point?
  132. # [06:39] <roc> yeah, but we can get around it
  133. # [06:39] <roc> you have to be able to, for drawImage anyway
  134. # [06:40] <jamesr> aight
  135. # [06:41] <jamesr> negative values throw a weird exception
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  137. # [06:49] <jamesr> Philip`: yt?
  138. # [06:51] <jamesr> Philip`: if you get a chance to see this i think you should add some canvas tests for negative maxWidth, NaN maxWidth, and for globalCompositeOperation + text drawing. opera fails on the first, the second seems unspecified (although i might have missed a step in the conversion routine that fixes it) and the last fails pretty hardcore in webkit
  139. # [06:51] <jamesr> or if i can figure out the harness maybe i could write some tests
  140. # [06:54] <jamesr> roc: or do you happen to know how a specified value of NaN is supposed to behave when passed in to a function specified as taking a double in IDL?
  141. # [06:55] <roc> That depends on the function
  142. # [06:55] <jcranmer> you throw an exception saying "double check your damn math"
  143. # [06:55] <roc> canvas generally just ignores the call
  144. # [06:55] <roc> we've had some debates about this inside and outside Mozilla
  145. # [06:55] <roc> I tend to favour ignoring the call, for a couple of reasons
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  147. # [06:56] <roc> 1) it's the bottom of the "this site 'works' in browser X, but not Firefox, you suck" slippery slope
  148. # [06:56] <jamesr> iirc olliej prefers that as well, his argument being that it's easy to get a NaN on an intermediate step of some complex calculation and it's harsh to throw an exception as that'll typically kill all draw calls that would happen afterwards
  149. # [06:56] <roc> that was my point #2 :-)
  150. # [06:57] <roc> that is especially true for coordinate and matrix parameters
  151. # [06:57] <jamesr> when you 'ignore the call' do you completely ignore it or still apply the globalCompositeOperation (i.e. do you clear out everything if the gCO was "copy")?
  152. # [06:57] <roc> we ignore it completely
  153. # [06:57] <roc> I could go either way on that
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  187. # [09:34] <annevk-cloud> dglazkov, what is the difference between a DOM element and DOM content?
  188. # [09:34] <annevk-cloud> dglazkov, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Component_Model_Behavior_Attachment could use some examples :)
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  213. # [10:35] <boblet> crazy q: is it possible to disable Moz’s HTML5 parser via JS for a site?
  214. # [10:37] <annevk> no
  215. # [10:38] <boblet> cool
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  220. # [10:48] <annevk> Ms2ger, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Jul/0003.html
  221. # [10:48] <annevk> ... and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Jul/0004.html
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  229. # [10:58] <boblet> annevk: the questions we get at H5D, itellya ;)
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  232. # [11:00] <annevk> I read a sitepoint discussion this morning where zcorpan was in discussion with a bunch of people believing HTML5 will fail soon
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  234. # [11:04] <Onderhond> What was their alternative?
  235. # [11:09] <annevk> Something would come along...
  236. # [11:10] <annevk> The mutation events thread be long, geez
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  262. # [11:46] <annevk> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-weber-iri-guidelines looks somewhat promising
  263. # [11:46] <annevk> though replacing the whole set of RFCs with a standard about URLs still makes more sense to me
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  265. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah, that doc looks good
  266. # [11:58] * MikeSmith is behind on reading the public-iri list
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  268. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: I added Cross-Origin Resource Embedding Exclusion to platform.html5.org
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  270. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> but I think that spec should just be renamed "The From-Origin header"
  271. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess I should also add CSP
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  274. # [12:09] <annevk> yeah I gues
  275. # [12:10] <annevk> s
  276. # [12:10] <annevk> The long term plan is to take "fetch" from HTML, CORS, and COREE; and merge them all into a single document about fetching resources
  277. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
  278. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> that would be good
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  288. # [12:58] <annevk> not sure if sylvia is here, but <? does not work in HTML
  289. # [12:59] <Ms2ger> How unfortunate.
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  298. # [14:14] <Ms2ger> "4. Pre-processing Arbitrary Unicode Strings"
  299. # [14:14] * Ms2ger wonders if that spec will ever manage to become a RFC
  300. # [14:15] <annevk> written by the chair of the group if I'm not mistaken
  301. # [14:15] <annevk> should have a chance
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  314. # [14:47] <annevk> Anyone used http://prizes.org/ for getting people to write specifications?
  315. # [14:49] <Onderhond> Long shot (and off-topic).
  316. # [14:49] <Onderhond> But I remember a news site that used the right site of the browser to give an indication of content below the fold.
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  318. # [14:49] <Onderhond> * right side
  319. # [14:49] <Onderhond> Any idea if this is a common pattern, what it's generally called and where to find it? :)
  320. # [14:50] <annevk> NY Times has/had such an overlay on the bottom right, not sure what it was for anymore
  321. # [14:53] <Onderhond> Shame they change their site a lot, I'll check archive.org :)
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  357. # [16:15] <Onderhond> Is it feasible to use input[type=range] for a fixed set of values? (radius around a point of a map: 1km, 5km, 15km, 25km, 50km, 75km)
  358. # [16:16] <annevk> input type=radio and select are for that
  359. # [16:17] <Onderhond> Currently there's no way to define a fixed set on values.
  360. # [16:17] <Onderhond> Myeah, figured so.
  361. # [16:18] <Onderhond> Sadly "those in power" prefer a fancier (and screen estate-reducing) input type.
  362. # [16:18] <annevk> need shadow DOM
  363. # [16:18] <annevk> or XBL
  364. # [16:19] <annevk> or whatever will solve that
  365. # [16:19] <bga_> but http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#the-datalist
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  367. # [16:20] <wilhelm> Your use case makes sense, but you'll need a bit of additional logic. <input type='range' min='0' max='5' step='1'> plus a script that converts indexed values of 0-5 to 1-75km.
  368. # [16:22] <Onderhond> Hmmm, sounds reasonable too.
  369. # [16:25] <annevk> bga_, that's suggestions, you cannot limit the control to those values
  370. # [16:26] <bga_> ah
  371. # [16:26] <Onderhond> data-fixedVals="1,5,15,25,50,75" and use js to snap to those values ... I guess that would be an option ?
  372. # [16:27] <annevk> data-fixed-vals
  373. # [16:27] <annevk> becomes dataset.fixedVals
  374. # [16:27] <annevk> and that could work, bit hacky
  375. # [16:28] <Onderhond> kay, thanks for the input :)
  376. # [16:28] <Onderhond> (hah pun!)
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  441. # [19:19] <karlcow> http://www.innoq.com/blog/st/2010/03/uddi_rip.html
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  445. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> I think I just need to write off everyone with "Leif" in their name as bad.
  446. # [19:35] <othermaciej> you probably shouldn't judge a person as "bad" based on their participation in a standards group in any case...
  447. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> I've only needed to do that with one
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  449. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> Or I didn't realize there were different people
  450. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: I'm not. I'm judging them by their name.
  451. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> And I'm doing it to *all* people with "Leif" in their name.
  452. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> 'cause I'm racist.
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  454. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> namist.
  455. # [19:37] * Ms2ger fires TabAtkins
  456. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> YOU CAN'T FIRE ME, I QUIT MOZILLA
  457. # [19:38] * TabAtkins thinks he remembers that Ms2ger is Moz.
  458. # [19:38] <annevk> Is that actually just for W3C purposes or are you meaningfully employed?
  459. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> Just W3C red tape
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  466. # [19:44] <miketaylr> aww TabAtkins not all Leif's are bad
  467. # [19:45] <miketaylr> s/Leif's/Leifs/
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  469. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> leiftaylr?
  470. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> HE'S A CRYPTO-LEIF
  471. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> GET HIM
  472. # [19:46] <miketaylr> indeed leif taylor http://www.flickr.com/photos/11691204@N00/5701898006/in/photostream
  473. # [19:46] * Ms2ger was never really fond of the name "Tab" either
  474. # [19:46] * miketaylr hides his babby from tab
  475. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> I challenge you to find Tabs that are worth vilifying.
  476. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> Besides my dad.
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  478. # [19:50] <Hixie> right, what's next
  479. # [19:50] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.170)
  480. # [19:51] <Hixie> microdata, the command api thing, rtc, and dialogs are on my list
  481. # [19:51] <Hixie> am i missing anything?
  482. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> Meh, dialogs can wait
  483. # [19:52] <Hixie> let's start with microdata
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  494. # [20:04] <Hixie> you have to love the way the w3c on the one hand cries about how forks are bad and that's why we shouldn't use a free license, and then on the flip side they seem to have no problem making forks.
  495. # [20:04] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@173.243.46.194) (Quit: davidb)
  496. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> I thought we discussed. Forks of W3C specs are what's bad, regardless of whether the W3C spec happened to come first or second.
  497. # [20:05] * Joins: timeless_ (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless)
  498. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> s/discussed/discussed this/
  499. # [20:05] <Hixie> clearly
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  503. # [20:06] <Hixie> and if all the forks occur within w3.org, it's fine too
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  506. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> Yes, because then they (the good guys) control all of them, so it's okay.
  507. # [20:06] <Hixie> so tired of dealing with people who put process ahead of the web
  508. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> The only problem is when untrusted evil people make forks of W3C specs.
  509. # [20:06] <Ms2ger> Also, generalizations
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  512. # [20:10] <Hixie> actually i should rephrase that. it's not so much that people put process ahead of the web. It's that they think the process helps the web, despite evidence to the contrary.
  513. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> I was going to say something like that, but I've argued with you enough already about the motives of people who disagree with us.
  514. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Lots of people think procedures are good and anarchy is bad, in web standards as in many other things.
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  518. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> Given that people do care about the process, I'm not sure saying "whatever, publish it as a rec, svg got away with it" is helpful
  519. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> It comes up a lot in politics too. And the administration of large organizations.
  520. # [20:14] <Hixie> Ms2ger: the process as a whole isn't being helpful
  521. # [20:15] <Hixie> Ms2ger: the right answer is to change it or drop it, but nobody at w3c that i've spoken to seems interested in even discussing considering it
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  524. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Because to change the process so massively would be incredibly hard, because of the process.
  525. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Since you'd have to go through the process to change the process.
  526. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> So they only tolerate superficial patches that don't really solve the problems.
  527. # [20:18] <Hixie> not doing something because it would be hard is possibly the _worst_ reason not to do it
  528. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Hey, you're preaching to the choir here.
  529. # [20:19] <Hixie> sorry, just frustrated :-)
  530. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> But realistically, the AC is reactionary and will never vote to upturn all the things we need to upturn unless they have a gun held to their head.
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  532. # [20:19] <Hixie> ok, i'm done reading my e-mail, frustration will now dissipate
  533. # [20:19] <Hixie> foolip: you around?
  534. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> (which I wouldn't recommend)
  535. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Which wouldn't you recommend, holding a gun to their head?
  536. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  537. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Even then they might not be willing to accept all the changes we need, because many of them run directly against their interests as organizations. E.g., letting implementers run everything.
  538. # [20:20] <Hixie> what would you recommend? (personally i've stopped caring enough to even consider finding something to convince them to change, so there's no risk of my doing what AryehGregor suggests)
  539. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> As I've said, I don't think they'll ever change, I think the only way out is to abandon ship. Strikingly similar to TBL's account of how he split from the IETF.
  540. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> That was in large part because they spent ages arguing about stupid procedural issues.
  541. # [20:21] <Ms2ger> You can't publish specs from a prison, so I'd rather you didn't end up there
  542. # [20:22] <Hixie> i meant what would Ms2ger recommend :-)
  543. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> I'm fine with convincing MS to join the cabal myself
  544. # [20:22] <Philip`> I thought people often wrote books in prison, so why not specs?
  545. # [20:23] <Hixie> Philip`: no internet access
  546. # [20:23] <annevk> Wait, WebApps is going to patch Ian's drafts and move them ahead independently of the WHATWG drafts?
  547. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Philip`, publish, not write
  548. # [20:23] <annevk> That is going to be interesting
  549. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> Hixie, who says? I bet prisoners in low-security prisons get Internet access for good behavior.
  550. # [20:23] <Hixie> annevk: "interesting" isn't the word i would pick :-P
  551. # [20:23] <annevk> Been on vacation btw?
  552. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> Actually, I bet they'd love it if you could work productively from prison and make a decent salary. You'd think so, right? Must be better than stamping out license plates or whatever.
  553. # [20:23] <Philip`> http://www.ehow.com/how_6629174_write-book-prison-published.html has a handy step-by-step guide
  554. # [20:24] <Hixie> annevk: four day weekend in the US
  555. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, sorry, that wouldn't get through the prison's process
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  557. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> Okay, so are implementers going to come out and say they'll ignore the W3C specs if they patch them independently of Hixie? That's really what needs to happen to force the W3C to act sane, implementers need to take a stand.
  558. # [20:25] <annevk> Hixie, aah, nice
  559. # [20:25] <annevk> I'm gonna have one of those starting somewhere tomorrow, in Berlin :)
  560. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, browsers will match the W3C spec more closely than the WHATWG one, no?
  561. # [20:25] <Hixie> AryehGregor: in this particular case, the implementations are already doing what the patch is intended to do
  562. # [20:25] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i just haven't gotten around to implementing that fix because it's of trivial importance
  563. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see.
  564. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Well, I wouldn't say it's trivial, the spec doesn't match reality. It's just not blocking anything important.
  565. # [20:26] <Hixie> the whatwg spec will eventually follow suit; in the meantime, god knows what'll happen if i fix actually important bugs
  566. # [20:26] <Hixie> AryehGregor: right
  567. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Well, whatever.
  568. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> So, how much time would have been saved if you just did that a couple of weeks ago instead of complaining about the W3C?
  569. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> I'd like to see them try that in the HTMLWG.
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  571. # [20:27] * AryehGregor concurs with Ms2ger that it would be simpler if you had just prioritized this stuff from the beginning to shut people up, since it's a legitimate request
  572. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> You prioritize chairs' requests in the HTMLWG, why not WebApps too?
  573. # [20:27] <Hixie> i'm not going to start prioritising things in the order that people complain about them
  574. # [20:27] <Hixie> that way lies madness
  575. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> This way, too
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  577. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> Well, it might be madness, but it would save people a lot of trouble.
  578. # [20:29] <Hixie> what would save people trouble is just not worrying about the process
  579. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> You only have to prioritize complaints by chairs and W3C administrative people, and only if they sound threatening.
  580. # [20:29] <Hixie> this entire issue only matters because Art has suddenly decided it should be in LC
  581. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Well, yes, but given that we aren't going to get that, no point in worrying about it.
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  588. # [20:49] <annevk> smaug____, you could allow it only to be called from a top level browsing context
  589. # [20:50] <smaug____> annevk: rph ?
  590. # [20:50] <smaug____> yeah, that could be one, ugly, solution
  591. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> If someone posts a bug asserting something is missing, and it's not missing, is that WORKSFORME or INVALID?
  592. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy-v2.html#bug-resolutions
  593. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> WORKSFORME in the HTMLWG.
  594. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> INVALID is only for total garbage, or if the filer withdraws it.
  595. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> Done, thanks.
  596. # [20:57] <annevk> smaug____, doesn't seem so ugly to me
  597. # [20:58] <smaug____> annevk: at least it is not backwards compatible, if currently there isn't such limitation
  598. # [21:00] <annevk> I doubt you'd even want iframe content to be allowed to ask for such permissions
  599. # [21:00] <annevk> E.g. when that happens for geolocation you want to present special UI as well
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  605. # [21:15] <dbaron> Hixie, fyi, it's a three day weekend in the US, and a 4 day weekend in Google-land
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  625. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Hixie, should I resolve WF3 stuff LATER, move it to HTML.next, what?
  626. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Stuff in the "we want this, but not until there's better WF2 support" category.
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  628. # [22:14] * Ms2ger thinks that's what target milestones should be for
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  630. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> The latest target milestone is "Rec". Also, I don't know who's supposed to set those.
  631. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> Yeah, they're broken, IMO
  632. # [22:16] * Joins: richardschwerdtf (~RichS@99-39-114-91.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
  633. # [22:17] <timeless> AryehGregor: generally i find RESOLVED LATER = disaster
  634. # [22:17] <timeless> it's better to just use a TM to get things off your plate
  635. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> TM?
  636. # [22:17] * Joins: Twitter (~Kingdutch@188.200.149.217)
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  639. # [22:18] <Ms2ger> Target milestone
  640. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> Oh. Well, it all depends on how Hixie's workflow operates here.
  641. # [22:18] * Quits: Twitter (~Kingdutch@188.200.149.217) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  642. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> But anyway, we don't have a suitable milestone.
  643. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> We'd have to move it to HTML.next.
  644. # [22:19] * Joins: Kingdutch (~Kingdutch@188.200.149.217)
  645. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> That's an even bigger disaster, but oh well :)
  646. # [22:19] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces0200.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  647. # [22:20] <jamesr> AryehGregor: can you just leave the bugs open?
  648. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> jamesr, that's what I'm asking Hixie. I'll do whatever he wants.
  649. # [22:20] <Ms2ger> That is what you're being paid for after all, no? :)
  650. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure that HTMLWG procedure requires they be resolved at some point, though, or the component is changed.
  651. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> No, I'm not being paid for this, alas.
  652. # [22:21] <jamesr> AryehGregor: leaving it open for now != leaving it open forever
  653. # [22:21] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@178.74.10.250)
  654. # [22:22] <AryehGregor> The thing here is that we don't know when exactly we'll want to do it. It depends when browsers have good WF2 support.
  655. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Never
  656. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> :)
  657. # [22:33] <Hixie> AryehGregor: either mark them WF3 but otherwise leave them, or mark them WF3 and move them to LATER if you think there's no chance browser vendors would want to work on them soon
  658. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> Hixie, okay.
  659. # [22:33] <Hixie> if they're _really_ pie in the sky and things that we shouldn't even consider soon, I guess move them to HTML.next
  660. # [22:34] <Hixie> but let's not move things into that bucket if there's a chance we might have to solve them sooner rather than later
  661. # [22:35] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.52.104) (Quit: nn)
  662. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> Okay.
  663. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> I'll leave it open.
  664. # [22:40] <zewt> "If the applications you are completing require electronic signature you may be asked to download or update Java version 1.4.2 or higher after you sign in." fffff
  665. # [22:42] <moo-_-> "may be"
  666. # [22:42] <moo-_-> zewt: you still have your chances!
  667. # [22:42] <moo-_-> zewt: run for it
  668. # [22:42] <zewt> there will be no survivors
  669. # [22:43] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  670. # [22:43] <moo-_-> zewt: I so love Crockford's Javascript presentation where he dissed Java
  671. # [22:44] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  672. # [22:45] <zewt> at least if it required Flash i already have that installed ... but almost nobody uses Java on webpages anymore so I don't
  673. # [22:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
  674. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> zewt: It's a very bad idea to turn on Java in your browser anyway, due to the attack vectors it opens.
  675. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> (I only have Java on my comp at all for Minecraft.)
  676. # [22:52] <zewt> that's what VMware is for
  677. # [22:52] <moo-_-> TabAtkins: I really don't care about attack vectors as Linux user
  678. # [22:52] <moo-_-> TabAtkins: but I care when my browser freezes for 60 seconds
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  681. # [22:56] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  683. # [22:59] * Joins: estes (~estes@2620:149:4:401:d69a:20ff:fed0:8cd2)
  684. # [22:59] <Hixie> moo-_-: you don't care if your machine gets owned? :-)
  685. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> Java attack vectors are not windows-specific. What do you once you exploit the vector is platform-specific, but the actual holes opened up by Java are often cross-platform.
  686. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> s/are not/are often not/
  687. # [23:00] <jamesr> write once, owned everywhere
  688. # [23:00] <Hixie> write once, debug everywhere
  689. # [23:01] <jamesr> actually a number of java sploits are windows-specific, but that's a factor of where the targets are, not where the exploits are
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  695. # [23:07] <Hixie> anyone know if schema.org implementations support itemref=""?
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  699. # [23:09] <annevk> AryehGregor, when mutations are sorted out that'll be sorted out
  700. # [23:10] <Hixie> looks like google's richsnippet testing tool does, at least
  701. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> annevk, which part?
  702. # [23:10] <Hixie> though it exposes it in the data model for some reason
  703. # [23:10] <annevk> AryehGregor, but basically we don't have to define the methods in terms of each other to add the mutation stuff
  704. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> No, but it makes things simpler.
  705. # [23:10] <annevk> Hixie, from what I read on schema.org they have proprietary extensions to e.g. the <time> element
  706. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> That way there's only one point where we need to define these things.
  707. # [23:11] <annevk> AryehGregor, if they all use a single callback you have that too
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  709. # [23:11] <Hixie> annevk: i think those were mistakes, dunno if they fixed them or not
  710. # [23:11] <annevk> Hixie, and they use some kind of extension model that is incompatible with the API
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  712. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> annevk, that'd be good enough for me.
  713. # [23:11] <Hixie> annevk: that, there was discussion of on whatwg
  714. # [23:11] <annevk> yeah
  715. # [23:11] * Hixie is still thinking of whether to just replace <time> with something else for "computer representation"
  716. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> But it would still be more complicated AFAICT.
  717. # [23:11] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  718. # [23:11] <Hixie> btw speaking of the mutation stuff, what's the status on that? are we close to a solution everyone likes?
  719. # [23:12] <annevk> Hixie, no consensus whatsoever it seems
  720. # [23:12] <Hixie> k
  721. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I end up wanting to use <time> with a unix timestamp anyway, because it's easier to work with that than an rfc timestamp.
  722. # [23:12] <annevk> Hixie, there's like very simple mutation listeners versus complex ones that keep some kind of diff-state around
  723. # [23:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah
  724. # [23:13] <Hixie> annevk: i've no opinion on the matter, i'm just waiting for someone to make a decision :-)
  725. # [23:13] <annevk> AryehGregor, I don't really like defining one method in terms of another
  726. # [23:13] <annevk> Hixie, me too
  727. # [23:13] <annevk> Hixie, my plan is to put them in DOM Core, whatever "them" is
  728. # [23:13] <Hixie> cool
  729. # [23:14] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  730. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> annevk, then define some abstract steps like "alter the data" that accept the same arguments as replaceData().
  731. # [23:14] <annevk> AryehGregor, yeah, could do that I suppose
  732. # [23:14] * Joins: jer|afk (~jernoble@17.203.12.89)
  733. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I do suspect it's useful to have a generic "machine representation". I'd be afraid of it being misused to embed arbitrary data a la RDFa's @content attribute, but shrug.
  734. # [23:15] <annevk> AryehGregor, I haven't looked at that section in a long time, other than minor cleanup
  735. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> That's probably not a bad enough fear to really care.
  736. # [23:15] <Hixie> TabAtkins: well we already have <meta> for that
  737. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> Hixie: For the former or the latter?
  738. # [23:15] <Hixie> TabAtkins: but people want to do <span itemprop=a content=b>x</span> instead of <meta itemprop=a content=b>c for some reason
  739. # [23:16] <Hixie> (wish i understood why)
  740. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I dunno.
  741. # [23:16] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@78.149.171.55) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  742. # [23:16] <Hixie> (i meant for the latter)
  743. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: However, I still kinda like <time> for its application to the atom extraction algo. ^_^
  744. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Also, would a generic machine-representation element have some way of indicating the datatype? <time> was useful in that it indicated the data was definitely a datetime, not an arbitrary string.
  745. # [23:19] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@178.74.10.250) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  746. # [23:19] <Hixie> dunno, depends on what hte use cases are
  747. # [23:20] <Hixie> for things like microformats or microdata, you don't need the type, since the prop name gives you the type
  748. # [23:20] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.22.21)
  749. # [23:20] <annevk> only if you know the propname, no?
  750. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> I was thinking probably the same thing.
  751. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> annevk: If you don't know the propname, what are you doing with the data?
  752. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> (Besides just archiving it, where you don't need the datatype.)
  753. # [23:21] <annevk> hmm
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  755. # [23:21] <annevk> not having generic processing supposedly was a problem with microformats
  756. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> That's generic *parsing*.
  757. # [23:22] <Hixie> what would you do with the type?
  758. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Which was a problem.
  759. # [23:22] <annevk> Hixie, store things in different ways
  760. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> (In that you couldn't even *extract* microformats without knowing the format.)
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  762. # [23:22] <Hixie> annevk: well so long as there's a 1:1 mapping from the value to the storage mechanism, you can still do that
  763. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> annevk: Possibly good point. datetimes can be stored much more efficiently than a string timestamp.
  764. # [23:22] <annevk> you could do some queries solely based on type, not sure how much meaning you can extract from it
  765. # [23:23] <Hixie> annevk: anyway, if there's a concrete use case, i'm open to it
  766. # [23:23] <Hixie> i don't know of one
  767. # [23:23] <annevk> export to Atom is/was one
  768. # [23:24] <Hixie> yeah, pubdate="" would be sacrificed if we did this
  769. # [23:24] * Quits: Necrathex (~nectop@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  770. # [23:24] <Hixie> not sure that's a huge problem
  771. # [23:24] <Hixie> we can always redefine the mapping to atom using microdata again
  772. # [23:24] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl)
  773. # [23:24] <Hixie> btw, at the risk of errecting a bike shed and stepping in a can of paint, the main reason i haven't done this change is that i've no idea what the replacement element would be called
  774. # [23:24] <Hixie> <data>?
  775. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Given that I'm already annotating my blogposts with microformats...
  776. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> <machine>
  777. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> <itemdata>
  778. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> <meta>
  779. # [23:25] <Hixie> it's not microdata specific, so i'd rather avoid <item*>
  780. # [23:25] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-jubmqklbgeuwfduu)
  781. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> It's not?
  782. # [23:25] <Hixie> <meta> is void
  783. # [23:25] <Hixie> nah, it could at least be used with microformats as well
  784. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Ah, right.
  785. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Microformats is stuck with html4 syntax anyway.
  786. # [23:25] <Hixie> they don't have to be
  787. # [23:25] <annevk> I'm not sure what the replacement element would look like
  788. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> If they break away, might as well just use microdata syntax entirely.
  789. # [23:26] <annevk> If it is solely defined by its attributes maybe just use <span> and <div>
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  792. # [23:27] <annevk> gives you a reason to like them again ;)
  793. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> Having an inline-default and block-default version would be nice.
  794. # [23:27] <Hixie> i'd rather not overload them with semantic meaning, it's messy
  795. # [23:28] <Hixie> also it complicates the microdata algorithm if now <span> has three ways of having a value
  796. # [23:28] <Hixie> bad enough having two
  797. # [23:28] <Hixie> (itemscope and textContents)
  798. # [23:29] <annevk> Just an idea. Again, I've no idea what this thing would look like
  799. # [23:30] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@84.38.144.96) (Quit: annevk)
  800. # [23:31] <Hixie> it would replace <p><time itemprop=start datetime="2005-01-05">Yesterday</time> it was <meta itemprop="weight" value="5">three weight-units</p> with:
  801. # [23:31] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-149-186.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  802. # [23:32] <Hixie> <p><data itemprop=start value="2005-01-05">Yesterday</data> it was <data itemprop="weight" value="5">three weight-units</data></p>
  803. # [23:32] <Hixie> (and would drop pubdate="")
  804. # [23:33] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  805. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> I like the consistency somewhat.
  806. # [23:34] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  807. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> But still think it's basically just for Microdata, and so should have "item" in its name.
  808. # [23:35] <Philip`> <annotate itemprop=start ...>
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  810. # [23:37] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  811. # [23:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it doesn't have to just be for microdata. e.g. someone could use it to include machine-readable data in the page for their own purposes, much like data-*
  812. # [23:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: in fact this is very similar to data-*
  813. # [23:37] <Hixie> *ponders*
  814. # [23:38] <Hixie> i guess people could just use data-* if they want their own thing
  815. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Indeed.
  816. # [23:38] <Hixie> maybe microdata is the only compelling use case for this
  817. # [23:38] <Hixie> hmm
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  819. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> I guess <itemdata> (or whatever) shouldn't be able to accept @itemscope, though, right?
  820. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Since it, by definition, can't represent further microdata items?
  821. # [23:40] <Hixie> interesting point
  822. # [23:40] <Hixie> this leads me to the thing i wanted to speak to hsivonen about, which came up in the discussion of the command api
  823. # [23:40] <Hixie> namely, the global attributes: should we make them less global?
  824. # [23:40] <Hixie> it doesn't make much sense to allow tabindex="" or accesskey="" or contenteditable="" on, say, <track>
  825. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Yeah, true.
  826. # [23:44] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.109)
  827. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, <style contenteditable>head, style { display: block }</style> is awesome.
  828. # [23:51] <jamesr> heycam: (or anyone else) what's the difference in w3 issue tracker land between RAISED and OPEN?
  829. # [23:51] <heycam> jamesr, it's whatever you want it to be :)
  830. # [23:51] <jamesr> is OPEN sort of like an accepted state (we think we need to do something but haven't yet)?
  831. # [23:51] <heycam> that's how I tend to use it, yeah
  832. # [23:52] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah, there are some things for which it makes sense even though it's dubious.
  833. # [23:52] <heycam> it's probably not that important though; the other specs in the WG haven't been using tracker for their issues
  834. # [23:52] <AryehGregor> contenteditable probably should be allowed on any non-void element.
  835. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> The way I'm defining it, editing hosts themselves aren't modifiable, only their descendants are, so on a void element it makes no sense.
  836. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: <video contenteditable>?
  837. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> Well, that would be a totally different feature.
  838. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
  839. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> You mean that should be invalid too.
  840. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Possibly, yeah.
  841. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> Yeah, things whose children have no visible effect should also logically not be allowed to be contenteditable.
  842. # [23:55] <nlogax> when using drag and drop, how do you prevent a drop at drop time? if you decide that was not a good place (e.g when sorting stuff by dragging, and you didn't drag it far enough)
  843. # [23:55] <jamesr> heycam: aight, i won't worry about it then
  844. # [23:55] <nlogax> so that it glides back to whence it came, like when you drop it somewhere non-droppable
  845. # [23:55] <jamesr> it seems if i close an issue via the web ui it doesn't generate an email
  846. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> nlogax: On dragenter, don't preventDefault?
  847. # [23:55] <jamesr> hmm. i suppose that's ok
  848. # [23:55] <nlogax> TabAtkins: hmm. but i don't know where it will be dropped when that fires
  849. # [23:56] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@178.74.10.250)
  850. # [23:57] <jamesr> heycam: i also think that email about psychology experiments + knowing the vblank time is important
  851. # [23:57] <jamesr> heycam: but before addressing that i really want to propose a time interval API for everything that doesn't suck
  852. # [23:57] <heycam> jamesr, I haven't read that mail yet
  853. # [23:58] <jamesr> it's good stuff
  854. # [23:59] <jamesr> but i want to talk about time intervals on the whatwg list
  855. # [23:59] <jamesr> to make sure it gets a broad audience since it's important for the whole platform
  856. # [23:59] <heycam> what do you mean by time intervals here?
  857. # [23:59] <heycam> jamesr, I saw this recently, also related: http://blog.fishsoup.net/2011/06/30/frame-timing-the-simple-way/
  858. # [23:59] <jamesr> you can't tell how much time has elapsed between two callbacks using, f'instance, Date.now()
  859. # [23:59] <zewt> timedelta
  860. # Session Close: Thu Jul 07 00:00:00 2011

The end :)