/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 11 00:00:00 2011
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  55. # [09:52] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  56. # [09:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the relevant bit is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#change-the-encoding
  57. # [09:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: however, it seems that the way the steps are now ordered, the parser shouldn't get as far as step 3
  58. # [09:54] <hsivonen> I wonder if the steps were always in that order...
  59. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> yeah, may well have changed
  60. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/#changing
  61. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> step number 1: If the new encoding is UTF-16, change it to UTF-8.
  62. # [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: good to see that my initial reading comprehension has worked even if I've failed to keep up with spec changes
  63. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> yeah:)
  64. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> and incidentally, I guess there's at least one thing that TR drafts can occasionally useful for
  65. # [10:02] <hsivonen> we have a use case for TR! :-)
  66. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  67. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> fwiw, looks like it changed some time between 2009-02-12 and 2009-04-23
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  72. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: actually, it looks like this was the exact revision:
  73. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=3203&to=3204
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  82. # [12:28] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  91. # [12:43] <annevk> hmm, I have no notes from last week for the WHATWG Weekly
  92. # [12:45] <annevk> foolip, the Microdata change means you can now express graph data?
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  95. # [12:52] <tjaytje> hi guys :)
  96. # [12:53] <annevk> hey
  97. # [12:54] <tjaytje> this is the official whatwg channel, so if i have any questions what so ever about HTML i can ask them here right ?
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  101. # [12:58] <annevk> yeah
  102. # [12:58] <annevk> also about ponies
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  108. # [13:08] <tjaytje> Whahaha oke let's talks about ponnies :P
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  114. # [15:13] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  115. # [15:13] <annevk> <aside> is for non-critical content
  116. # [15:13] <tjay_> so replace the aside with a section element ?
  117. # [15:14] <annevk> actually, that content does look like <aside> would fit
  118. # [15:15] <volkmar> i think there were a discussion about <input type='email|url'> that needs to be submitted in ASCII, someone has a link to it by any change?
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  120. # [15:16] <annevk> volkmar, http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-May/031519.html
  121. # [15:17] <tjay_> so everything that is directly related to the content can be coded in a <aside> tag ?
  122. # [15:17] <Onderhond> Or in this case, related to the site as a whole.
  123. # [15:17] <annevk> it's not directly related
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  125. # [15:17] <annevk> the content is the text, categories of your blog are not related to that
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  127. # [15:18] <annevk> only tangentially
  128. # [15:18] <Onderhond> It shouldn't be nested inside the content wrap, I believe that's the main difference.
  129. # [15:18] <annevk> which fits <aside>
  130. # [15:18] <annevk> kind of funny that the same journalists that talk about tablets as post-PC also refer to them as tablet PCs
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  133. # [15:23] * danheberden_ is now known as danheberden
  134. # [15:23] <annevk> quiz: is there a difference between XML's Name and XML Names' QName?
  135. # [15:24] <annevk> it appears the answer is no
  136. # [15:24] <annevk> I win ten thousand dollar and can continue playing for a fridge
  137. # [15:24] <tjay_> En we gaan door voor het gouden pols horloge !
  138. # [15:24] <tjay_> :P
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  143. # [15:38] <annevk> btw
  144. # [15:38] <annevk> about those ponies
  145. # [15:38] <annevk> https://plus.google.com/112284435661490019880/posts/Qv2bUFsSMR3
  146. # [15:39] <annevk> totally related according to Google+
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  149. # [15:45] <timeless> Ms2ger: ping
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  151. # [15:47] <timeless> hi smaug____
  152. # [15:47] <smaug____> timeless: hi
  153. # [15:47] * timeless is reading webidl-3.3.4.4. Named properties
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  158. # [17:49] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  161. # [17:55] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like I'm being nominated to a Task Force: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jul/0011.html
  162. # [17:56] <hsivonen> manu-db: btw, I am not a Mozilla employee. I'm a contractor.
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  165. # [17:56] <hsivonen> Looks like I need to catch up with Microdata/RDFa email that got sent while I was on vacation
  166. # [17:56] <timeless> manu-db: fwiw: you probably should favor 'iiuc' over
  167. # [17:57] <timeless> 'iirc' for such cases
  168. # [17:57] <manu-db> hsivonen: Thanks for the clarification, but I don't think it matters - you've had good input on RDFa and Microdata in the past, I think you'd be a good person to be in that group.
  169. # [17:57] <timeless> (understand v. recall)
  170. # [17:57] <timeless> hsivonen: how / what was your vacation? :)
  171. # [17:57] <timeless> And have you been g+'d? :)
  172. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> annevk++
  173. # [17:58] <hsivonen> timeless: yeah, the Google+ thing seems to have happened while I was away. Not sure what to think of it, but this time I didn't resist it like Facebook
  174. # [17:59] <timeless> I'm now in 4 social networks
  175. # [17:59] <timeless> Orkut, Facebook, g+, g+
  176. # [17:59] <hsivonen> timeless: the vacation was nice. in Saxon Switzerland, Königstein, Dresden and Leipzig
  177. # [17:59] <timeless> cool
  178. # [17:59] <timeless> places i haven't been
  179. # [17:59] * timeless needs to find a WG interested in hosting a meeting near one of those :)
  180. # [18:00] <hsivonen> timeless: I'm temporarily staying in Brunswick, so it was easy to travel by train
  181. # [18:02] * timeless has issues convincing google-maps to explain where that is
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  184. # [18:03] <timeless> Braunschweig ?
  185. # [18:03] <hsivonen> manu-db: I didn't mean to imply the distinction mattered for the TF.
  186. # [18:03] <hsivonen> timeless: yes
  187. # [18:04] <timeless> and did you see /msg?
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  200. # [18:18] <boblet> anyone know of HTML5 outline support in anything (apart from Firefox and Chrome default styles)?
  201. # [18:19] <boblet> afaik nothing on the AT side, but wondering if any browser makers are working on exposing it…
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  208. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Regarding http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13176 roc stated my opinions well.
  209. # [18:26] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-106f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  210. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, where?
  211. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> In the scrollback
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  213. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> Hmm, okay.
  214. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, annevk, zcorpan-who-is-never-here-when-I-want-to-ask-him-something, do any of you want to resolve <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13176>? I don't feel I understand the issue well enough to actually resolve it. If none of you do either, then I'll raise it to P1 so that they can start writing a Change Proposal if they don't get a response.
  215. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> In thirty days.
  216. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> (since a lot of the point of Editorial Assistants is to start things moving earlier so there aren't multi-month delays added to the already-long escalation process)
  217. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> I see Aaron Leventhal is at RIM now too
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  223. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> timeless: did you move?
  224. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> I mean, move the place where you are living
  225. # [18:56] <timeless> yes, i'm in Toronto
  226. # [18:57] <timeless> eh, Aaron L joined us?
  227. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> I think he's probably been there for a while
  228. # [18:58] <timeless> oh, so i joined him?
  229. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> heh
  230. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> yeah I guess so
  231. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> please host some WG meeting so I can go and say Hi to you guys
  232. # [18:59] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-mykvpnteblgrvpio) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  233. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> I never been to Toronto
  234. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I assume you're welcome in Mozilla's Toronto office as well ;)
  235. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> I hope so :)
  236. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> but yeah, that's where mozlabs is headquartered, right?
  237. # [19:01] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-agifpfvwlwtfprof) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  238. # [19:01] * Parts: Jorrit (~jorritv@pat.se.opera.com)
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  243. # [21:02] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  244. # [21:02] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  245. # [21:09] * Joins: linclark (~clark@089-101-090180.ntlworld.ie)
  246. # [21:10] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.9)
  247. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> If you write two billion lines, you will likely get kicked more than twenty times, assuming the network has automatic flood protection.
  248. # [21:11] * Joins: MikeSmith (~mikesmith@EM1-112-139-22.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  249. # [21:11] <timeless> it does, see killer and the kicks i got
  250. # [21:12] <timeless> 2*1e9/(10*365*24*60*60)
  251. # [21:12] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  252. # [21:12] <timeless> is 6.3
  253. # [21:12] * Joins: boaz- (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  254. # [21:12] * boaz- is now known as boaz
  255. # [21:12] <timeless> i can't remember what the threshold is for getting kicked, but i think it means that at .2billion lines, i wouldn't
  256. # [21:12] <timeless> assuming even distribution
  257. # [21:13] <jcranmer> so 6.3 lines per second?
  258. # [21:13] <timeless> anyway, the point is that the algorithm for determining whether you've been kicked a lot really needs to consider activity
  259. # [21:13] <timeless> jcranmer: yeah
  260. # [21:13] <timeless> assuming i didn't mess up any of the math
  261. # [21:14] <zewt> for all the times people get kicked from here?
  262. # [21:14] <timeless> zewt: well, the calculation is 2billion lines / 10 years
  263. # [21:14] <timeless> pick a network of your choice
  264. # [21:14] <timeless> i was comparing it to killer on moznet
  265. # [21:15] <timeless> where i think the threshold is something like 6 lines in 10-15s or something
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  268. # [21:15] * tomasf_ is now known as tomasf
  269. # [21:16] <zewt> irc throttles to one line every two seconds anyway, typically
  270. # [21:16] <zewt> (with token bucket throttling to 5-6 lines)
  271. # [21:16] * timeless likes how 2 billion lines (a random number pulled out of thin air) is only off by one order of magnitude
  272. # [21:16] <zewt> (bursting, rather)
  273. # [21:20] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.65)
  274. # [21:34] <zewt> why does everyone @microsoft posting to webapps post in gigantofont
  275. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> It's Outlook's fault.
  276. # [21:34] <zewt> obnoxious as hell
  277. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Steve Faulkner has the same problems.
  278. # [21:35] <timeless> use thunderbird
  279. # [21:35] <zewt> also Travis Leithead
  280. # [21:35] <timeless> speaking of which, i need to try thunderbird again now that i found a solution to exchange server
  281. # [21:36] <zewt> haha great, it looks like the history api firefox bug is affecting gmail now
  282. # [21:36] <zewt> judging from the fact that back/forward are now randomly not working
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  291. # [23:45] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  292. # [23:45] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  293. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> jamesr: Oh yeah, also, bikesheddy, "stableTime"?
  294. # [23:45] <jamesr> yeah, currentTime() was an idea boris had. i don't have particularly strong feelings about name currently
  295. # [23:46] <timeless> heycam: so...
  296. # [23:46] <jamesr> was planning to nail down what it does before deciding what it's called :)
  297. # [23:46] <timeless> i'm probably missing something obvious
  298. # [23:46] <timeless> in ExtendedAttributeList
  299. # [23:46] <jamesr> Hixie: it could be. i dunno. implementation wise, this will be consistent across the OS on every system i'm aware of
  300. # [23:46] <timeless> what provides for the "Constructor" part of "[Constructor(in float x, in float y)]" ?
  301. # [23:47] <Hixie> jamesr: if it's just the same value across the entire platform, then why would it be tied to a window?
  302. # [23:47] <timeless> oh
  303. # [23:47] <timeless> you allow (Foo)Bar(Baz)
  304. # [23:47] <jamesr> doesn't have to be
  305. # [23:47] <Hixie> jamesr: just require it to be a random number in a particular range at the start
  306. # [23:47] <timeless> ok, strange
  307. # [23:47] <jamesr> yeah
  308. # [23:47] <heycam> timeless, in fact the Appendix A grammar allows almost anything inside the square brackets
  309. # [23:47] <jamesr> Hixie: what is "the start"?
  310. # [23:47] <heycam> timeless, as long as it has balanced brackets/parens
  311. # [23:47] <jamesr> Hixie: the first access?
  312. # [23:47] <Hixie> jamesr: if it's random, doesn't much matter
  313. # [23:47] <jamesr> depending on the range :P
  314. # [23:47] <timeless> heycam: yeah, there was a note saying you allowed just about everything
  315. # [23:47] <heycam> timeless, and then in the #idl-extended-attributes section it defines some more restricted cases
  316. # [23:47] <heycam> yeah
  317. # [23:48] <timeless> and that the grammar was ambigusous etc
  318. # [23:48] <jamesr> if the allowed range is big enough then yeah, it doesn't matter
  319. # [23:48] <Hixie> jamesr: make it random within a range that is equivalent to a few billion years or whatever :-P
  320. # [23:48] <timeless> heycam, i'm in http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-extended-attributes
  321. # [23:48] * riven` is now known as riven
  322. # [23:48] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
  323. # [23:48] * Joins: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  324. # [23:48] <timeless> it's just that (foo)bar(baz) is kind strange
  325. # [23:48] <zewt> hmm
  326. # [23:48] <timeless> and i wonder if it's really useful to allow it
  327. # [23:49] <jamesr> Hixie: you've just invented the Yfewbillion disaster!
  328. # [23:49] * Joins: Rik`_ (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net)
  329. # [23:49] <heycam> timeless, I wanted to allow anything in there just so that people using their own extended attributes weren't restricted too much
  330. # [23:49] <timeless> heycam: alright
  331. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> JS integers are 53 bits wide, which should be plenty enough for anyone.
  332. # [23:50] <jamesr> TabAtkins: these aren't necessarily integral
  333. # [23:50] <jamesr> (and in fact probably shouldn't be)
  334. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> Because of sub-millisecond timing, right?
  335. # [23:50] <jamesr> yeah
  336. # [23:52] <zewt> if the seconds value is in the billions, you can't represent nanoseconds with a double, i'm sure someone some day would curse that
  337. # [23:52] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  338. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> A gigasecond is only 30 years, after all.
  339. # [23:53] <zewt> (realistically I hope microseconds is enough)
  340. # [23:53] <erlehmann> i am “// check out
  341. # [23:53] <erlehmann> i am waiting for comments like „// check out my doubles“ in source code. haven't seen *that* yet.
  342. # [23:53] <timeless> ??
  343. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> ?? indeed
  344. # [23:54] * Philip` wants a high-res timer so he can do lots of timing attacks and break security
  345. # [23:54] <zewt> and then people can blame the timer
  346. # [23:55] <erlehmann> timeless, a meme on imageboards. posts are numbered sequentially. it is common to end with double digits, so called “doubles” (every 11th number does). so people make a thread “check out my doubles” with a “doubles guy” pointing towards the post number. if they succeed, hate.
  347. # [23:55] * Philip` wonders if anyone has done anything about the canvas image alpha-channel leakage yet
  348. # [23:55] <jamesr> quads ftw
  349. # [23:56] <jamesr> Philip`: pulling alpha channel alone isn't super interesting
  350. # [23:56] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  351. # [23:56] <erlehmann> Philip`, the one with the timing attack?
  352. # [23:57] <zewt> which one?
  353. # [23:57] <jamesr> Philip`: or rather, not the alpha channel by the high-order bit
  354. # [23:57] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
  355. # [23:58] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
  356. # [23:59] <Philip`> zewt: http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/img-timing-1.html or http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/img-timing-2.html
  357. # [23:59] <Philip`> (Relatedly also http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/font-timing.html)
  358. # [23:59] <Philip`> (All somewhat browser/OS-dependent)
  359. # Session Close: Tue Jul 12 00:00:00 2011

The end :)