/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 18 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  58. # [03:42] <rektide_> are cross site <script type="text/javascript" src="..."></script>'s no longer allowed?
  59. # [03:42] <rektide_> i'm not seeing my dev channel chrome attempting the request
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  62. # [03:43] <rektide_> i thought jsonp was a still used workaround? is it still possible? if so, how? or is there something amiss with my chrome not attempting the above <script> request
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  64. # [03:45] <rektide_> sorry error elsewhere in my html; my mistake
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  130. # Session Close: Mon Jul 18 09:03:08 2011
  131. #
  132. # Session Start: Mon Jul 18 09:03:08 2011
  133. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  137. # 03[09:04] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  138. # 03[09:04] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  157. # [11:11] <annevk> The RTC-Web effort (Real Time Collaboration on the World Wide Web) ... http://rtc-web.alvestrand.com/
  158. # [11:11] <annevk> The Real Time Communication on the Web (RTC-Web) ... http://rtc-web.alvestrand.com/home
  159. # [11:12] <annevk> what is it?
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  168. # [11:29] <hsivonen> annevk: "What is it?" in what sense?
  169. # [11:32] <annevk> Communication or Collaboration
  170. # [11:32] <hsivonen> annevk: oh
  171. # [11:32] <jgraham> Hmm, I wonder if smaug wrote a testharness.js-to-mochitest adapter. Someone has to do that eventually
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  173. # [11:33] <hsivonen> annevk: the sites fail to provide a quick elevator pitch like "Chatroulette without Flash"
  174. # [11:33] <hsivonen> (Or G+ hangouts without Flash, to give a less creepy usecase)
  175. # [11:35] <espadrine`> annevk: I guess it is more about communication, collaboration seems like a particular use case rather than the whole thing
  176. # [11:35] <hsivonen> BTW, what's the business case for Adobe for having videoconferencing enablement in Flash Player? Is it only about making Flash Player more sticky so that they can leverage it for other business or does Adobe monetize videoconferencing directly?
  177. # [11:36] <hsivonen> espadrine`: seems to me to be more about realtime audio and videa than about either communication or collaboration on a general level
  178. # [11:36] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I did :)
  179. # [11:37] <hsivonen> Ms2ger++
  180. # [11:37] <Ms2ger> Now I just need someone to review it
  181. # [11:37] <espadrine`> hsivonen: oh well.
  182. # [11:37] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You rock
  183. # [11:37] <Ms2ger> Thanks :)
  184. # [11:38] <hsivonen> annevk: maybe the C is like X in XBL :-)
  185. # [11:38] <espadrine`> "realtime audio/video" is not enterprisy enough
  186. # 06[11:38] * Ms2ger wonders if he could land it with r=jgraham...
  187. # 06[11:39] * espadrine` agrees with jgraham
  188. # [11:39] <annevk> Ms2ger, you should probably tell smaug
  189. # [11:39] <annevk> Ms2ger, before he rewrites all those tests
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  191. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> CCd him
  192. # [11:43] <annevk> Ms2ger, btw
  193. # [11:44] <annevk> Ms2ger, <ol type=TEST> ol[type=test] { background:lime } will style the <ol>
  194. # [11:44] <annevk> Ms2ger, in every browser
  195. # [11:44] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  196. # [11:44] <annevk> which is wrong per HTML at the moment
  197. # [11:44] <Ms2ger> Is it really?
  198. # [11:45] <annevk> "The exception to the list above is the type attribute on ol elements, which must be treated as case-sensitive."
  199. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> Where's that?
  200. # [11:46] <annevk> first subsection of "Matching HTML elements using selectors"
  201. # [11:47] <Ms2ger> Huh
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  210. # [12:03] <hsivonen> espadrine`: what kind of enterpriseyness do you perceive there to be about WebRTC and what enterpriseyness do you think it should have?
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  220. # [12:28] <annevk> it's still window.URL right?
  221. # [12:28] <annevk> http://html5-mediasource-api.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/draft-spec/mediasource-draft-spec.html has some confusing URI.createObjectURL() in it...
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  225. # [12:30] <Ms2ger> Yes
  226. # [12:33] <annevk> I wonder if I should bother filing a bug on Mozilla about attribute values and selectors
  227. # [12:33] <annevk> Or just file a bug on HTML5 to remove the exception for <ol type>
  228. # [12:34] <annevk> Guess I'm going to do the former. The behavior is magical and ugly...
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  234. # [12:41] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-rtc-download
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  239. # [12:59] <AnselmBradford> For the area element, what is meant by a "dead area on an image map" (in reference to one form the element can take)?
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  241. # [12:59] <Ms2ger> One that doesn't link anywhere?
  242. # [13:00] <Ms2ger> Like <area coords=0,0,100,100 href=foo><area coords=25,25,75,75>
  243. # [13:02] <AnselmBradford> Ms2ger: gotcha thanks... so corresponds to this text in the spec "If the area element has no href attribute, then the area represented by the element cannot be selected, and the alt attribute must be omitted."
  244. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> Sounds right
  245. # [13:03] <AnselmBradford> What's a use case for an area without an href?
  246. # [13:06] <Ms2ger> Making parts of an image unclickable, I suppose... This was long before my time
  247. # [13:07] <annevk> AnselmBradford, you can add a title attribute for instance
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  249. # [13:08] <AnselmBradford> annevk: ah, I see... so on hover the title shows, but it wouldn't be a hyperlink to anywhere?
  250. # [13:08] <annevk> not sure how <area> is layered but I can imagine you have a large clickable layer and then some parts of that should not be clickable maybe
  251. # [13:08] <annevk> AnselmBradford, right
  252. # [13:10] <smaug____> annevk: would it be possible to have some text in your test that they are Public Domain (or whatever license they use)
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  254. # [13:16] <annevk> I rather not put that stuff in each test
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  256. # [13:17] <annevk> last time I contributed tests to Mozilla I just said so in a bug report
  257. # 06[13:19] * jgraham wonders why these tests can't go via W3C
  258. # [13:19] <jgraham> Which should solve Mozilla's licensing issue and make them avaliable for everyone
  259. # [13:20] <annevk> I think I was waiting for comments before putting them in even more repositories
  260. # [13:20] <annevk> Potentially also for the W3C to agree on testharness.js or something else
  261. # [13:22] <jgraham> Seems like it might be time to move them then :)
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  263. # [13:24] <annevk> Still waiting for comments
  264. # [13:26] <hsivonen> the enclosure thread shows why you need to bikeshed early and forcefully
  265. # [13:26] <hsivonen> who'd have thought that Dave Winer's pick for an RSS element could threaten to leak into HTML rel values one day
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  267. # [13:31] <jgraham> annevk: My comment is you should move them to some W3C venue before I comment further :)
  268. # [13:31] <smaug____> heycam|away: what should happen if some method takes an dictionary, but the object which implements the dictionary has wrong types. Are those properties automatically converted to right type or something?
  269. # [13:32] <Ms2ger> smaug____, yes, afaict
  270. # [13:33] <Ms2ger> But maybe not if that method is overloaded
  271. # [13:36] <annevk> jgraham, not falling for that one :p
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  282. # [14:00] <annevk> Extra arguments added to methods are ignored right?
  283. # [14:01] <annevk> looks like it
  284. # [14:01] <annevk> am I glad entityReferenceExpansion is the last argument
  285. # [14:02] <annevk> we can just remove it without hassle
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  301. # [14:32] <hsivonen> I wonder what would happen if an Editorial Assistant WONTFIXed a bug Hixie filed.
  302. # [14:32] <annevk> try it!
  303. # [14:33] <annevk> although maybe wait for a bit, so I can have some popcorn with that
  304. # [14:35] <hsivonen> Another thing I've been wondering about today: Should I write email to Bob Leif expressing that using XSD 1.1 isn't a use case.
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  307. # [14:37] <annevk> I am hoping the chair will handle it
  308. # [14:37] <hsivonen> yeah, maybe I should wait for Norm to deal
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  314. # [14:50] <annevk> I wonder why the DOM specifications are so verbose
  315. # [14:50] <annevk> Well, the pre-DOM Core stuff
  316. # [14:51] <annevk> Looking at DOM Traversal it is mostly complicated language for a few simple concepts
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  318. # [14:56] <hsivonen> annevk: I thought the old DOM specs weren't verbose enough
  319. # [14:56] <hsivonen> annevk: maybe they spend words on the wrong things, though
  320. # [14:57] <annevk> well yeah, they are not exactly clear
  321. # [14:57] <annevk> they explain models by examples rather than well, defining them
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  327. # [15:07] <annevk> smaug____, why can't withCredentials be a simple attribute on EventSource just as it is with XHR?
  328. # [15:08] <annevk> if we need withCredentials at all
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  331. # [15:22] <smaug____> annevk: EvenSource opens the connections when ctor is called
  332. # [15:24] <annevk> no
  333. # [15:24] <annevk> it queues a task to do that
  334. # [15:25] <smaug____> ah, that is true
  335. # 06[15:25] * smaug____ hates the API inconsistency in XHR vs EventSource
  336. # [15:25] <smaug____> so, yeah, perhaps withCredentials attribute could work
  337. # [15:26] <smaug____> that would give some consistency
  338. # [15:28] <smaug____> annevk: I haven't seen any good reason to not have withCredentials
  339. # [15:28] <annevk> still think it wasn't the best idea to add it to XHR
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  341. # [15:30] <smaug____> but to do what?
  342. # [15:30] <smaug____> never send credentials?
  343. # [15:34] <annevk> always send credentials
  344. # [15:36] <smaug____> why
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  348. # [15:37] <annevk> because that is how cross-origin requests worked already
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  390. # [17:31] <annevk> Hmm, Traversal depends on mutation quite a bit
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  410. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> annevk: Hm, I guess that bit about <ol=type> needs to be reworded, then, so that it specifically references the known type values but lets everything else be case-insensitive.
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  416. # [18:07] <smaug____> Interesting. Per spec calling command.click() ends up firing click event twice
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  420. # [18:10] <annevk> TabAtkins, that would be even worse
  421. # [18:10] <annevk> TabAtkins, also does not match impls afaik
  422. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> annevk: Man, really? so <ol type="A"> is matched by ol[type='a']?
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  426. # [18:17] <annevk> TabAtkins, always has been
  427. # [18:17] <annevk> TabAtkins, the change I am hoping we can make is to treat attribute values as case-sensitive, always
  428. # [18:17] <annevk> TabAtkins, I think that would be better than having a magic list of attributes
  429. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> annevk: I'm wondering how impls actually apply list styling, then. I assumed it was done via ua stylesheet.
  430. # [18:19] <annevk> UA style sheet has to be special anyway because of XHTML
  431. # [18:19] <annevk> e.g. input[type=button] would not work well in XHTML
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  435. # [18:23] <annevk> smaug____, prolly a bug
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  451. # [18:56] <annevk> TabAtkins, and it seems browsers have bugs because of their UA style sheet
  452. # [18:56] <annevk> e.g. compare data:text/xml,<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><input type="BUTTON"/><input type="button"/></html> between Gecko / WebKit / Opera
  453. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> Yay!
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  459. # [19:17] <rillian> hey all
  460. # [19:17] <rillian> I'm having trouble understanding http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/webappapis.html#provide-a-stable-state
  461. # [19:18] <rillian> I understand the idea is to wait for any (asynchronously running?) synchronous sections to complete
  462. # [19:18] <rillian> so the attributes available to javascript are coherent
  463. # [19:18] <rillian> but isn't that at odds with "A synchronous section never mutates the DOM ... or has any other side-effects."?
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  465. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> Why do you think it's at odds?
  466. # [19:20] <rillian> I suppose because firebug shows global js objects in the DOM tab
  467. # [19:20] <rillian> so I don't see how you could update object state without mutating the DOM
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  470. # [19:26] <annevk> I recommend a) looking at a version of the draft that is not multipage so you can see where the terms are referenced from and b) not using TR/
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  472. # [19:29] <annevk> rillian, fwiw, mutates the DOM means mutating the Document tree
  473. # [19:29] <annevk> rillian, it is not about changing IDL attributes
  474. # [19:30] <rillian> so "DOM" there is different from the view in javascript's namespace?
  475. # [19:32] <annevk> not sure what you mean by that
  476. # [19:32] <rillian> annevk: sorry, by not using 'TR' do you mean http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#provide-a-stable-state ?
  477. # [19:32] <annevk> for instance
  478. # [19:33] <annevk> TR/ is always out of date
  479. # [19:33] <rillian> 'k thanks
  480. # [19:34] <annevk> DOM mutation is generally understood to mean things like removeChild()
  481. # [19:34] <rillian> so things that affect the document object from javascript's point of view?
  482. # [19:34] <annevk> things that fire mutation events
  483. # [19:35] <annevk> you could ask for that to be made clearer though
  484. # [19:35] <rillian> sorry, by "DOM" I pretty much meant "What firebug shows in its DOM tab"
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  486. # [19:35] <rillian> I'm trying to understand what's spec, what's current implementation, and so on, with the event loop
  487. # [19:36] <annevk> as currently phrased you could think setting e.g. <link>.disabled would be such a thing
  488. # [19:36] <rillian> *nod*
  489. # [19:37] <rillian> I think the spec would also be improved with some less-normative language about what stable-state was for
  490. # [19:37] <rillian> right now it feels a bit circular
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  504. # [20:11] <Xeon06_> How legal is it to create our own attributes on existing elements in HTML5?
  505. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> You can use the data-* attributes for whatever you want that's private to the page. Otherwise, it's invalid.
  506. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Xeon06_, you can make up your own attributes as long as they start with "data-".
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  508. # [20:12] <Xeon06_> Okay, thanks guys1
  509. # [20:12] <Xeon06_> !*
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  511. # [20:14] <Xeon06_> Wow, this is what jQuery's .data does!
  512. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Yes.
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  518. # [20:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: if you wontfix a bug i filed i won't notice. but i would be interested in hearing about it if you ever find a bug i filed be something you might consider wontfixing :-)
  519. # [20:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: especially since they're generally editorial things :-)
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  523. # [20:32] <janv_> Hixie: hi, could you take a look at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=617528#c109 ?
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  526. # [20:35] <janv_> Hixie: thanks
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  528. # [20:38] <Hixie> just got their in my bugmail :-)
  529. # [20:39] <janv_> :)
  530. # [20:39] <janv_> this is the last issue
  531. # [20:39] <Hixie> er, there
  532. # 03[20:39] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  533. # [20:39] <Hixie> not their
  534. # [20:39] <janv_> I see
  535. # [20:40] <janv_> I hope we land the patch soon
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  569. # [22:22] <annevk> Hixie, why does ev = new EV("url"); ev.withCredentials = true; not work?
  570. # [22:22] <annevk> new EV; queues a task
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  572. # [22:23] <annevk> when the task queue is spinned and that task gets done you get the value from withCredentials and all should be fine
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  588. # [22:56] <Hixie> annevk: workers
  589. # [22:57] <annevk> EventSource is defined differently for workers?
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  591. # [22:58] <annevk> how does onopen get registered on time in workers?
  592. # [22:59] <Hixie> workers don't spin the event loop often
  593. # [22:59] <Hixie> or, they don't have to spin the event loop often, rather
  594. # [22:59] <Hixie> since their scripts can run forever
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  597. # [23:00] <annevk> either way you need to wait for the next task
  598. # [23:00] <annevk> and new ev(); ev.wC is a single operation
  599. # [23:00] <Hixie> the EventSource constructor doesn't wait for the event loop to start the connection
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  603. # [23:05] <annevk> oh I see
  604. # [23:05] <annevk> it doesn't queue a task at all
  605. # [23:05] <annevk> it does some magic
  606. # [23:06] <annevk> should XHR use similar magic?
  607. # [23:06] <annevk> hmm
  608. # [23:06] <Hixie> not magic, just async
  609. # [23:07] <annevk> i thought queue was our async
  610. # [23:07] <annevk> not return and do both set of things
  611. # [23:08] <Hixie> there's all kinds of different models depending on what the needs are
  612. # [23:09] <annevk> i had no idea
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  614. # [23:09] <Hixie> working on a background thread like this, queuing work on an event loop, using "stable states", hooking in other parts of the event loop, etc
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  617. # [23:13] <annevk> guess XHR could use this too
  618. # [23:13] <annevk> hmm
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  620. # [23:18] <Hixie> if you use 'fetch' then you already use this
  621. # [23:18] <Hixie> since 'fetch' only makes sense on a background thread, not in a task
  622. # [23:18] <Hixie> (unless you're doign sync xhr, of course)
  623. # [23:18] <annevk> i think it queues a task to fetch atm
  624. # [23:19] <annevk> bit sad that nobody actually reviews the spec in detail
  625. # [23:19] <annevk> or maybe next to nobody understands those parts
  626. # [23:19] <jamesr> the implications can be very subtle
  627. # [23:19] <annevk> yeah, way hard
  628. # [23:20] <annevk> anyway, got to go
  629. # [23:21] <rillian> at least I'm not the only one confused on these points :/
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  634. # 02[23:32] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  635. # 03[23:33] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
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  639. # 02[23:41] * Quits: Frozen_ (~Frozen@2a01:e35:8a2f:2a60:21f:d0ff:fe53:75b2) (Remote host closed the connection)
  640. # 02[23:42] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  641. # 03[23:42] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  642. # Session Close: Mon Jul 18 23:45:30 2011
  643. #
  644. # Session Start: Mon Jul 18 23:45:30 2011
  645. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  646. # 02[23:45] * Disconnected
  647. # 02[23:46] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  648. # 03[23:46] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  649. # 03[23:46] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  650. # 03[23:46] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  651. # 02[23:47] * Quits: krijnh (KtK@ip9135ee9d.speed.planet.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  652. # 03[23:51] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-100-197.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  653. # 03[23:54] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
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  656. # Session Close: Tue Jul 19 00:00:00 2011

The end :)