/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-21 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:05] <Hixie> heycam: what happens if an object marked NoInterfaceObject inherits from another and is instantiated?
  5. # [00:05] <jwalden> huh, ie9 doesn't support wav in its audio element?
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  7. # [00:05] <heycam> Hixie, it works just as if it didn't have NoInterfaceObject -- the only thing NoInterfaceObject affects is whether the global.InterfaceName property exists
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  10. # [00:07] <Hixie> heycam: k
  11. # [00:08] <Hixie> heycam: mail sent
  12. # [00:08] <heycam> thanks
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  56. # 04[00:19] * jwalden marks http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20110720#l-1335 appropriately
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  72. # [00:43] <annevk> did Google Maps get a new UI?
  73. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  74. # [00:43] <annevk> let me the be the first to point it is inconsistent with Calendar and Google+
  75. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Vaguely related: I wish we used a distance-preserving projection on Maps.
  76. # [00:44] <annevk> David Bloom refers to this as first world problems
  77. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Canada looks too damn big.
  78. # [00:44] <annevk> I say ugly
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  81. # [00:45] <jcranmer> lol
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  83. # [00:45] <jcranmer> zoom out to the second notch
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  85. # [00:45] <jcranmer> hover somewhere on the left
  86. # [00:45] <jcranmer> and then zoom in
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  118. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> Augh, I need to move off of Aurora. twice-a-day restarts are killing me.
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  186. # [03:45] <jwalden> TabAtkins: I thought we only updated once a day
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  226. # [05:15] <Hixie> there's no shipped way to save a canvas across page loads and sessions, right?
  227. # [05:15] <Hixie> since nobody saves imagedata to web storage?
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  231. # [05:18] <beverloo> could get an image from the canvas and store that, I suppose
  232. # [05:19] <Hixie> like the data: URL?
  233. # [05:19] <Hixie> i guess
  234. # [05:19] <beverloo> Yes
  235. # [05:19] <Hixie> that's pretty messed up
  236. # [05:19] <Hixie> but i guess it would work
  237. # [05:19] <Hixie> i wonder what the perf implications would be
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  250. # [05:43] <Hixie> if i have two <div>s with similar but not identical content that overlap
  251. # [05:44] <Hixie> and i want to fade from one to the other
  252. # [05:44] <Hixie> is there a way to do it that doesn't involve the areas that are the same changing coloru at all?
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  272. # [06:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: layer one over the other, transition opacity of the top one from 100% to 0%
  273. # [06:20] <zewt> only works for opaque images
  274. # [06:23] <othermaciej> zewt: I assume from Hixie's example that both divs in question have or can be given an opaque background
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  276. # [06:24] <zewt> i assumed the more complex case since i figured he knew how to use opacity :)
  277. # [06:25] <othermaciej> hmm, maybe they overlap but not 100%
  278. # [06:25] <othermaciej> and he wants to change which is "on top"
  279. # [06:25] <othermaciej> that would be less obvious
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  289. # [06:56] <annevk> oh yes
  290. # [06:56] <annevk> make works again
  291. # [06:57] <annevk> macports however is still broken
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  294. # [07:04] <Hixie> man some of these lion changes are quite buggy
  295. # [07:05] <Hixie> e.g. the flickering when you switch from one terminal to another if you have different settings for blur for active vs inactive windows
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  299. # [07:08] <Hixie> or this crazy sheering effect in the screen saver prefs "shuffle photos" sheet
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  307. # [07:22] <annevk> http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/TreeWalker.cpp#L139 how does the "sibling = sibling->previousSibling();" line matter?
  308. # [07:23] <annevk> look like sibling will be set by the for loop right after
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  312. # [08:08] <annevk> http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/TreeWalker.cpp#L139 how does the "sibling = sibling->previousSibling();" line matter?
  313. # [08:08] <annevk> look like sibling will be set by the for loop right after
  314. # [08:08] <annevk> othermaciej, ^^
  315. # [08:09] <othermaciej> annevk: which "sibling = sibling->previousSibling()" line?
  316. # [08:10] <annevk> 163
  317. # [08:10] <othermaciej> (I see at least two lines that say that)
  318. # [08:11] <othermaciej> that loop is a little mysterious to me
  319. # [08:11] <annevk> glad I am not the only one
  320. # [08:11] <othermaciej> in the "NodeFilter::FILTER_REJECT", nothing updates node
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  322. # [08:12] <othermaciej> so it seems like that would cause an infinite loop
  323. # [08:13] <othermaciej> likewise for NodeFilter::FILTER_SKIP in the case where sibling has no children
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  325. # [08:13] <othermaciej> maybe break actually breaks out of the loop instead of the switch statement
  326. # [08:13] <othermaciej> or is intended to
  327. # [08:13] <othermaciej> or something
  328. # [08:13] <annevk> in both of those cases you want the previousSibling
  329. # [08:14] <othermaciej> annevk: oh, nevermind
  330. # [08:14] <othermaciej> RefPtr<Node> sibling = node->previousSibling() is the initializer
  331. # [08:14] <othermaciej> the for loop has no increment step
  332. # [08:14] <othermaciej> and the loop condition is sibling not being null
  333. # [08:14] <othermaciej> so it totally makes sense
  334. # [08:14] <annevk> but how does line 163 make sense?
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  336. # [08:15] <annevk> the for loop overwrites that, no?
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  345. # [08:27] <othermaciej> annevk: no
  346. # [08:27] <othermaciej> annevk: the for loop's assignment to sibling is the initializer, not the increment
  347. # [08:27] <othermaciej> annevk: so it only sets sibling the first time before entering the loop
  348. # [08:28] <annevk> ah thanks
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  393. # [10:42] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-treewalker-parentnode
  394. # [10:42] <annevk> Would be nice to auto feed concept-node-filter with whatToShow and filter somehow
  395. # [10:43] <annevk> Maybe besides "active flag" I should just define whatToShow and filter as concepts and then say that the attributes on the objects map to those concepts?
  396. # [10:44] <annevk> It has to be something like that; the current way is way verbose
  397. # [10:44] <Ms2ger> wfm
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  399. # [10:54] <annevk> not sure when I'll get to it btw
  400. # [10:55] <annevk> got up a little too early and am now gonna relax for a while :)
  401. # [10:55] <annevk> but feedback welcome
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  405. # [10:58] <ivan`> any ideas why Access-Control-Allow-Origin doesn't have subdomain wildcards?
  406. # [10:58] <ivan`> hmm, maybe I can just convince the server to send the right header for whichever subdomain
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  421. # [11:43] <hsivonen> ivan`: the design of CORS assumes that it is applied to dynamic content, so it's OK to require the headers to vary, too. By not allowing wild-carding, the programmer is forced to think more and is assumed to be less likely to declare bad policies
  422. # [11:43] <hsivonen> ivan`: the result is, though, that CORS really sucks for static resources like images or fonts
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  424. # [11:43] <hsivonen> if you want anything more granular than the blanket anything-goes wildcard * that is
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  427. # [11:44] <hsivonen> this would become a lot less painful if Apache shipped with a mod_cors
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  438. # [12:14] <ivan`> hsivonen: thank you
  439. # [12:15] <ivan`> I was worried about that header getting cached
  440. # [12:15] <ivan`> and then later I learned I could also just look at Origin
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  443. # [12:18] <ivan`> anyway, now I see that it doesn't get cached, obviously
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  534. # [16:46] <dpy> hi guys
  535. # [16:47] <jgraham> hej
  536. # 03[16:47] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  537. # [16:47] <dpy> Where would I post bug reports about this (i.e. which bugzilla component): http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fjsbin.com%2Fetabil%2F3
  538. # [16:50] <hsivonen> dpy: do you mean the spelling bug "Namspaces"?
  539. # [16:50] <dpy> no, data-[ is a valid data-attribute name
  540. # [16:50] <dpy> and so are data-$, data-%, etc.
  541. # [16:51] <jgraham> Oh, I thought you meant that the line numbers were wrong :)
  542. # [16:51] <dpy> basically anything that is a non-space character in available unicode that is not a control character and not [\0"'/=]
  543. # [16:51] <hsivonen> dpy: that's not what the spec said last time I looked
  544. # 06[16:52] * hsivonen looks again
  545. # [16:52] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#embedding-custom-non-visible-data-with-the-data-*-attributes
  546. # [16:52] <dpy> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/syntax.html#attributes-0 <-- ?
  547. # [16:52] <Philip`> "▶ A custom data attribute is an attribute in no namespace whose name starts with the string "data-", has at least one character after the hyphen, is XML-compatible, and contains no characters in the range U+0041 to U+005A (LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A to LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z)."
  548. # [16:53] <Philip`> "Attribute names are said to be XML-compatible if they match the Name production defined in XML, they contain no U+003A COLON characters (:), and their first three characters are not an ASCII case-insensitive match for the string "xml"."
  549. # [16:53] <hsivonen> dpy: what Philip` said
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  551. # [16:53] <dpy> What source are you quoting?
  552. # [16:53] <dpy> that link?
  553. # [16:53] <hsivonen> dpy: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#embedding-custom-non-visible-data-with-the-data-*-attributes
  554. # [16:53] <hsivonen> and http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#xml-compatible
  555. # [16:54] <dpy> So the stuff on w3.org is outdated?
  556. # [16:54] <jgraham> Well yes, but more to the point it's the wrong part of the spec
  557. # [16:55] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/elements.html#embedding-custom-non-visible-data-with-the-data-attributes is the relevant part
  558. # [16:55] <jgraham> In general anything on TR/ is outdated
  559. # [16:55] <Philip`> which hasn't changed since the obsolete TR/
  560. # [16:55] <jgraham> And, increasingly, it seems that anything on the W3C site will be outdated
  561. # [16:55] <dpy> What does TR stand for if I may ask?
  562. # [16:55] <hsivonen> dpy: Technical Reports officially
  563. # [16:55] <jgraham> Temporally Retarded
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  565. # [16:55] <dpy> lol
  566. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> TRash
  567. # [16:57] <dpy> Still, I think it is strange that two parts of the spec (at one point) seems to be ambiguous
  568. # [16:57] <dpy> but I probably misread
  569. # [16:58] <dpy> oh wait
  570. # [16:58] <hsivonen> dpy: you quoted a part about attributes in general. data-* attributes have more specific rules on top of the general stuff
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  572. # [16:58] <dpy> yeah, the part I read was about the syntax
  573. # [16:58] <Philip`> The "Writing HTML documents" section says the form that attributes take, but you're only allowed to use attributes that are explicitly defined in the semantics
  574. # [16:58] <dpy> ok, I understand
  575. # [16:59] <dpy> too bad, would've been nice to be able to write things like: data-$foo= or data-foo[0]=
  576. # [16:59] <Philip`> which is a finite set of attributes plus a particular infinite subset of the ones start with "data-"
  577. # [17:00] <Philip`> so the attribute "data-$" is no different to the attribute "$$$"
  578. # [17:00] <Philip`> (in terms of conformance, at least)
  579. # [17:00] <Philip`> (unless I'm mistaken)
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  581. # [17:03] <hsivonen> I fixed the typo in version control. Will deploy at some point but not now.
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  596. # [17:17] <dpy> okay.. show set [:ANY:] on unicode.org was not a good idea
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  604. # [17:30] <TabAtkins> dpy: Hah, indeed.
  605. # [17:30] <TabAtkins> "Please show me 10000 characters."
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  609. # [17:34] <dpy> Why is data-a:0 not a valid attribute name?
  610. # [17:34] <TabAtkins> Because : makes the name not xml-compatible.
  611. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> (Philip` gave the description of "xml-compatiable" from the spec about 45min ago.)
  612. # [17:35] <dpy> Well, the html specs send me to the #NT-Name anchor of XML
  613. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> Just do data-a_0
  614. # [17:35] <dpy> and a:0 is a valid name according to that production
  615. # [17:36] <TabAtkins> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#xml-compatible
  616. # [17:36] <dpy> it even explicitly states in text: "author should not use the colon in XML names except for namespace purposes, but XML processors must accept the colon as a name character"
  617. # [17:36] <Philip`> "... they contain no U+003A COLON characters (:)"
  618. # [17:36] <Philip`> (from #xml-compatible)
  619. # [17:37] <dpy> I stand corrected
  620. # [17:37] <dpy> I overlooked that by clicking through
  621. # [17:37] <dpy> seems that some people are trying very hard to not try to put indexed values in a data-attribute name
  622. # [17:38] <dpy> and that's exactly what I would like to be able to do
  623. # [17:38] <TabAtkins> No, it's an incidental consequence of making the attribute xml-compatible.
  624. # [17:38] <Philip`> What's the situation where you're trying to do that?
  625. # [17:38] <TabAtkins> Use an underscore.
  626. # [17:39] <dpy> the problem with the underscore is that it's typically also allowed in names where I don't expected indexed values
  627. # [17:39] <dpy> my software would not be able to distinguish between them
  628. # [17:39] <Philip`> I think the usual assumption for structured data is that you can do it with JSON, like data-whatever="[1,2,3]" instead of data-whatever[0]="1" ...
  629. # [17:39] <TabAtkins> Make those names use - instead.
  630. # [17:39] <dpy> Philip`: yes, but that get's hairy when we're not simply talking 1, 2 3
  631. # 03[17:40] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
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  634. # 06[17:40] * jgraham wonders what is not hairy munging text from an attibute name but is hairy parsing its value
  635. # [17:42] <dpy> I have three independent pieces of JSON, which are much easier to read when stored in three attributes than as a single JSON list crammed into a single attribute
  636. # [17:42] <annevk> * Microsoft will be submitting tests for SCA (Structured Cloning Algorithm, Forms, Async Script, Drag & Drop and Sandbox).
  637. # [17:42] <annevk> better set aside some reviewing time
  638. # [17:42] <jgraham> Really [[1,2,3], [2,,5,6], [7,8,9]] doesn't seem that hard to read
  639. # [17:43] <jgraham> And it is even easy to parse
  640. # [17:43] <dpy> jgraham: now replace each of the characters by a nested JSON structure
  641. # [17:43] <jgraham> dpy: If you have nested structures anyway, having an array of three of them doesn't seem at all bad compared to having three seperately
  642. # [17:44] <dpy> like: [{"foo":["X","Y","Z"],"bar":[...]"},{"foo":["X","Y","Z"],"bar":[...]"},{"foo":["X","Y","Z"],"bar":[...]"},{"foo":["X","Y","Z"],"bar":[...]"},{"foo":["X","Y","Z"],"bar":[...]"}]
  643. # [17:44] <dpy> and compare this with:
  644. # [17:44] <dpy> foo[0]={"foo":["X","Y","Z"],"bar":[...]"}
  645. # [17:44] <dpy> foo[1]={"foo":["X","Y","Z"],"bar":[...]"}
  646. # [17:44] <dpy> + ' '
  647. # 02[17:44] * Quits: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: simplicity-)
  648. # [17:45] <dpy> jgraham: well, it is if you keep in mind that it is likely for one of these to change and you need to resolve conflicts
  649. # [17:45] <jgraham> Well if you really care you can write {0:{"foo":["X","Y","Z"],"bar":[...]"},\n1:{"foo":["X","Y","Z"],"bar":[...]"}}
  650. # [17:46] <dpy> If your users aren't experiences programmers, I'd rather have them solve 2 attributes that are in conflict, than bore them with the details of JSON
  651. # [17:46] <jgraham> I am having great difficulty in seeing how having three attributes containing JSON is easier than having one attribute contaning JSON
  652. # [17:47] <dpy> I expect my users to understand html5, not JSON
  653. # [17:47] <dpy> now they are required to understand JSON
  654. # [17:47] <dpy> to solve a merge conflict
  655. # [17:48] <jgraham> I totally don't understand how they could not need to understand JSON if the data they are merging is in JSON
  656. # [17:48] <dpy> plus I liked the idea: one data-attribute = one property
  657. # [17:48] <dpy> not: some data attributes define multiple properties
  658. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> dpy: What happens if your data structure ends up nesting more deeply?
  659. # [17:49] <jgraham> Well you can do it your way if you like. But you have to use syntax that doesn't conflict with XML
  660. # [17:49] <dpy> jgraham: you don't need to understand the details of a syntax to point out which line you want to keep and which you don't
  661. # [17:49] <dpy> like: it's easier to read something, than it is to write it
  662. # [17:50] <dpy> TabAtkins: they are always singly lined, and should not get too complicated (otherwise something else is probably smelly)
  663. # 06[17:50] * jgraham hopes you are not planning to use this for anything important
  664. # [17:50] <jgraham> Because expecting people to edit data in a format they don't understand
  665. # [17:50] <jgraham> That's not gonna work
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  668. # [17:51] <dpy> jgraham: I'm obviously not able to do much about the status quo... I'm clearly not allowed to do it the way I like...
  669. # 02[17:51] * Quits: tbassetto (~tbassetto@LRouen-151-71-49-64.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  670. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> So anyway, point is, you're free to embed things however you like if you use xml-compatible names (which happens to exclude some of the more natural ways to write what you want). It may be a better idea to just embed json, but whatever.
  671. # [17:51] <dpy> TabAtkins: I agree with you
  672. # 03[17:52] * Joins: tbassetto (~tbassetto@LRouen-151-71-49-64.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  673. # [17:52] <dpy> Though I don't like it, it seems the only viable alternative, given the great lengths the specification has gone to prevent what I want to do
  674. # [17:53] <TabAtkins> dpy: You're making it sound like the spec went out of its way to prevent you from making it easy to solve your case. It didn't. It just said that custom attributes have to obey the same syntax rules as every other attribute in the language.
  675. # 03[17:53] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.73)
  676. # [17:53] <dpy> I would have rather seen a more liberal approach: You can use anything, except these...
  677. # [17:53] <dpy> Rather then: you can't use anything except these...
  678. # [17:53] <dpy> then=than
  679. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> If you get an identical set of allowed characters either way, it seems irrelevant whether the set is specified additively rather than subtractively.
  680. # [17:54] <dpy> TabAtkins: I don't take it personal. I'm feeling it as though it was a partical design choice. I may not agree with it, but it's fact now, so I might just as wel accept the situation
  681. # [17:55] <dpy> TabAtkins: " It just said that custom attributes have to obey the same syntax rules as every other attribute in the language." <-- this is not true. non-data HTML5 attributes are much less restricted
  682. # [17:56] <TabAtkins> Huh? How so?
  683. # [17:56] <Philip`> Non-data attributes are entirely restricted because you can't use any of them at all (except the finite set listed in the spec)
  684. # [17:56] <dpy> So any future attribute can still be written like: foo[2]= and current parsers need to accept it
  685. # [17:56] <TabAtkins> That's only possible in the case that the spec changes the rules and allows a non-XML-compatible attribute name.
  686. # [17:56] <dpy> Philip`: I'm talking about restrictions toward the future
  687. # 02[17:57] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  688. # [17:57] <dpy> TabAtkins: Where do you read that a non-data attribute must be xml compatible
  689. # 03[17:57] * Joins: boaz- (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  690. # [17:57] <dpy> ?
  691. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> It wouldn't make much sense for the spec to impose restrictions on itself, given that it's the spec and can just change those restrictions later.
  692. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> dpy: Every attribute is XML-compatible.
  693. # 03[17:57] * boaz- is now known as boaz
  694. # [17:58] <TabAtkins> dpy: Also, informally, keeping the language such that it generates the same DOM in HTML and XHTML as much as possible has been a strong goal.
  695. # [17:58] <Philip`> Parsers accept data-foo[2]="..." exactly the same way as foo[2]="...", and expose it as e.dataset["foo[2]"] etc - the only restrictions are for conformance (to discourage dangerous or XML-incompatible syntax))
  696. # [17:58] <Philip`> s/)//
  697. # 02[17:59] * Quits: shetech (~shetech@12.234.36.130) (Quit: Leaving.)
  698. # [18:00] <dpy> Philip`: I should I read that? That I can use it safely, or that I can't?
  699. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> You, as an author, are required to not do it.
  700. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> Browsers are required to accept to it.
  701. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> s/to it/it/
  702. # [18:01] <dpy> I don't want to have a broken app, if something in the spec changes and the browsers no longer accept my data-attributes
  703. # [18:01] <zewt-> the usual contradiction. heh
  704. # 03[18:01] * zewt- is now known as zewt
  705. # 03[18:01] * Joins: oal (~olav@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net)
  706. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> (Because every possible sequence of bits is an HTML document, though possibly an invalid one, and must have rules on how to process it.)
  707. # [18:02] <dpy> Okay, this is the old: be strict in what you produce, be unstrict in what you accept
  708. # [18:02] <oal> Is it possible to insert a link <a href="something">..</a> with css? When I do it with :after {content: 'somehtml'} it displays as text
  709. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> Basically, yeah.
  710. # [18:02] <Ms2ger> oal, only in Opera
  711. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> oal: No. Linking is an HTML behavior that can't be controlled with CSS.
  712. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> And Prince, I think
  713. # [18:03] <oal> Ok :/
  714. # [18:05] <Philip`> If it was argued sufficiently convincingly that allowing non-XML-compatible characters in attribute names would be the best solution to some use cases, and if people were in a fed-up-with-XML mood and didn't mind abandoning the pretence of supporting it as an equal to text/html, then the conformance requirements could be relaxed and nothing else would change
  715. # [18:05] <dpy> Hurray!
  716. # [18:05] <Philip`> (since browsers will already parse it in the expected way)
  717. # [18:05] <dpy> Middle dot to the rescue:
  718. # [18:05] <dpy> data-foo·0="bar"
  719. # [18:05] <dpy> is allowed
  720. # [18:05] <Philip`> That's disgusting :-p
  721. # [18:05] <zewt> gross
  722. # [18:05] <dpy> now don't you guys dare take this away from me!
  723. # [18:05] <dpy> :P
  724. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> It seems bad to use non-ascii characters in an attribute, since you can't type them on your keyboard without an OS escape sequence, but whatever. ^_^
  725. # [18:06] <TabAtkins> Also, retrieving the attribute will be more difficult.
  726. # [18:06] <Ms2ger> Mm, can you use entities in attribute names?
  727. # [18:06] <dpy> TabAtkins: they aren't really meant to be typed, so people can't accidentally type them.. which may even be a good thing
  728. # [18:06] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Don't think so.
  729. # [18:07] <Philip`> dpy: I thought you wanted inexperienced people to edit these things by hand
  730. # [18:07] <dpy> Philip: read: delete stuff
  731. # 02[18:07] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  732. # [18:07] <dpy> Philip`: but it may be a bad idea tomorrow morning
  733. # 03[18:07] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  737. # [18:08] <Philip`> Ms2ger: No but you could always write <script>document.write('<div data-foo\xb7')</script>="...data..."></div> if you want to avoid non-ASCII source
  738. # 06[18:09] * Ms2ger glares at Philip`
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  741. # [18:10] <Philip`> Oops, I forgot the 0 in there
  742. # [18:10] <annevk> jgraham, congrats on the labs release!
  743. # 03[18:12] * Joins: shetech (~shetech@12.234.36.130)
  744. # 02[18:15] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.89) (Quit: Ich habe dieses Lotterleben satt.)
  745. # [18:16] <annevk> https://plus.google.com/112095156983892490612/posts/EMADdvHSRbH
  746. # [18:16] <annevk> gotta love the rhetoric in the comments
  747. # 03[18:18] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.198)
  748. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> I'm surprised. Julian's suggestion seems reasonable.
  749. # [18:18] <dpy> Okay, maybe it's just best to go with data-foo_0, foo.bar_0, foo.bar.xyz_0 and just prohibit my users to use the underscore _ (they'll just have to use the full stop as a delimiter)
  750. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> dpy: Or the dash.
  751. # [18:19] <dpy> TabAtkins: the dash is interpreted
  752. # [18:19] <annevk> His suggestion is basically what is being done, no?
  753. # [18:19] <annevk> Bunch of new features do not appear in the W3C draft
  754. # [18:19] <dpy> data-foo-0 becomes foo0, right?
  755. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> Only if you use the dataSet accessor.
  756. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> dataset.foo0
  757. # [18:19] <dpy> just as data-foo-bar becomes fooBar
  758. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> But if you're using dataSet, you can't access anything with a period in it.
  759. # [18:20] <dpy> huh?
  760. # 06[18:20] * dpy checks
  761. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> Or rather, you'd need to access it like an array. dataSet['foo.bar']
  762. # 03[18:20] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  763. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> Though, actually... let me check the spec real quick about data-foo_0
  764. # [18:21] <Philip`> (dataset, not dataSet)
  765. # 03[18:21] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  766. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> dpy: No, data-foo-0 is not changed.
  767. # [18:21] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  768. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> it's still dataset['foo-0']
  769. # 06[18:22] * Hixie nods to dglazkov
  770. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> Or rather, data-foo_0 is still dataset['foo_0']
  771. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> Well, both.
  772. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> ANYWAY, you only drop the dash if the following character is a lowercase letter (and then you uppercase that letter)
  773. # [18:23] <dpy> ok
  774. # [18:23] <dpy> I'll report that back to my team
  775. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> annevk: Not really. The HTMLWG hasn't branched properly, it's forced Hixie to branch and then keep the branch in line with trunk.
  776. # [18:24] <dpy> TabAtkins: tnx
  777. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> If we did a proper branch, a lot would be easier (and the HTMLWG branch would be immediately obsolete).
  778. # 02[18:25] * Quits: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71-213-92-61.slkc.qwest.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  779. # [18:25] <annevk> and keep maintaining it as Julian suggests?
  780. # 03[18:25] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  781. # [18:25] <annevk> sounds like a bad idea
  782. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> annevk: If the HTMLWG is maintaining a frozen branch, it's not really important.
  783. # [18:26] <annevk> I don't see how it would be better
  784. # 02[18:26] * Quits: danj (~danj@s15372200.onlinehome-server.info) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  785. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> Less work for Hixie, more time to do something useful?
  786. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> I was just typing that.
  787. # 03[18:29] * Joins: cying_ (~cying@c-71-202-136-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  788. # 06[18:29] * Ms2ger finally beat TabAtkins to something
  789. # [18:30] <hsivonen> annevk: regarding rhetoric, Leigh Klotz is an XForms guy, right?
  790. # [18:30] <annevk> think so, yes
  791. # 02[18:31] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-71-202-136-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  792. # 03[18:31] * cying_ is now known as cying
  793. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> In other words, "someone who's bitter about the fact that browsers are the only relevant user of HTML".
  794. # 06[18:31] * Philip` guesses one significant danger is more time being wasted by people who read and/or implement the W3C version of the spec without realising it's obsolete
  795. # [18:32] <annevk> yeah, it does not seem like a smart thing
  796. # [18:32] <annevk> to let that run wild
  797. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> The alternative is dealing with the HTMLWG continually trying to an LC.
  798. # [18:33] <annevk> if the W3C wants to move on they should focus more on tests and less on process
  799. # [18:33] <annevk> or change the process
  800. # [18:33] <annevk> tests and implementations are the bottleneck to move HTML5 forward there, nothing else
  801. # 02[18:33] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-71-202-136-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  802. # [18:33] <annevk> they are always the bottleneck
  803. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> Weren't they going to hire people to write tests from the HTML5 T-shirt sales?
  804. # 03[18:34] * Joins: tjay_ (~tjay_@ip51ccc57d.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl)
  805. # [18:35] <jgraham> Well they said they would use them to fund testsuite development
  806. # [18:35] <jgraham> Not exactly how
  807. # [18:35] <Philip`> Maybe nobody has bought them since they're waiting for the Living Standard T-shirts
  808. # [18:35] <jgraham> So maybe they are saving it all for a big testsuite-development party
  809. # [18:35] <jgraham> With champagne and caviar
  810. # [18:36] <annevk> damnit
  811. # [18:36] <annevk> this stuff requires subsubsteps
  812. # [18:36] <annevk> jgraham is gonna kill me
  813. # [18:36] <jgraham> You should do it like ES
  814. # 02[18:36] * Quits: dpy (~Marcel@2001:1af8:fe9b:0:221:70ff:fea7:aa9d) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  815. # [18:36] <jgraham> It's really better :)
  816. # [18:37] <annevk> how do they do break?
  817. # [18:37] <jgraham> I don't recall. But usually you can avoid it if you structure the loop correctly
  818. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> jgraham, when we go to PR?
  819. # [18:38] <annevk> example:
  820. # [18:38] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Any earlier and we wouldn't be able to afford real champagne
  821. # [18:38] <annevk> while node is not null
  822. # [18:38] <annevk> sibling = node nextSibling/previousSibling
  823. # [18:38] <annevk> if sibling
  824. # [18:38] <annevk> node = sibling
  825. # [18:38] <annevk> break (back to outer loop)
  826. # [18:38] <Philip`> Split it into a separate function and do a 'return'?
  827. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> while node is not null and (random boolean) is true
  828. # 03[18:38] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  829. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> ... (random boolean) = false
  830. # [18:39] <annevk> eww
  831. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> :)
  832. # [18:39] <jgraham> Well anything is better than "and terminate these sub sub steps"
  833. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> goto
  834. # [18:39] <hsivonen> break;
  835. # [18:39] <jgraham> Well annevk uses goto as well
  836. # [18:39] <hsivonen> well, break with label
  837. # [18:40] <hsivonen> it's annoying that C++ lack break with label
  838. # [18:40] <hsivonen> but spec English doesn't have to lack break with label
  839. # 06[18:40] * Philip` has occasionally done "for (i = 0; i < 100; ++i) { for (j = 0; j < 100; ++j) { ... if (whatever) i = 100; /* break out of outer loop */ } }"
  840. # [18:40] <Philip`> (but then felt unbearably dirty)
  841. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> And you should
  842. # [18:41] <Philip`> (and usually rewrote it as function with 'return' since that's the least nasty unstructured control flow statement)
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  848. # [18:44] <annevk> separate algorithms work I guess, but it seems so pointless
  849. # [18:45] <annevk> or maybe I should go the Ms2ger route
  850. # [18:45] <annevk> with a silly variable
  851. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> Silly? That's me :)
  852. # [18:45] <annevk> oh wait, that does not work
  853. # [18:46] <annevk> well i would have to check it in several other places too, that would suck
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  855. # [18:49] <annevk> man this sucks
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  871. # [19:18] <annevk> because I can http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-treewalker-firstchild
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  886. # [19:37] <nmadzharov> hi
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  888. # [19:40] <nmadzharov> is handleEvent( Event evt) { if(evt.isMouseEvent()) MouseEvent me = (MouseEvent) evt; } a common way to implement the function?
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  892. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> I presume you're talking about something other than JS.
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  897. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> http://trevorparscal.com/stuff/msiejs/msiejs-diagram.png
  898. # [19:59] <TabAtkins> My favorite part is the "Murderer".
  899. # [19:59] <nmadzharov> lol
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  907. # [20:15] <versatiletech> HTML5 job in close to Boston,MA? Relocation expenses paid. Very high pay. Opportunity to work on networking web app. PM me if you're interested.
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  923. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> Ooh, got a coons patch working!
  924. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/etc/scaling-algorithms.html
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  928. # [20:35] <smaug____> annevk: seems like http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-document-caretpositionfrompoint mentions still caretRange which is already removed from the interface
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  933. # [20:39] <annevk> smaug____, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0604.html
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  936. # [20:46] <smaug____> ah
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  974. # [21:33] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: did I capture this right? http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Component_Model_Use_Cases#Rendering_Form_Controls_with_SVG
  975. # 03[21:35] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  976. # [21:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you know the css in html is normative, right? :-)
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  978. # [21:44] <annevk> dglazkov, looks good to me!
  979. # [21:45] <dglazkov> cool
  980. # 03[21:45] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  981. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> Hixie: If I did, I wouldn't've said the opposite.
  982. # [21:46] <smaug____> XForms extensions supports svg styled form controls :p
  983. # [21:47] <othermaciej> dglazkov: those use cases look much better than the old use cases document
  984. # [21:47] <smaug____> s/extensions/extension/
  985. # [21:47] <othermaciej> though it is hard to see how the "Desirable Properties" follow from the use cases
  986. # [21:50] <othermaciej> dglazkov: it would be nice if the "Desirable Properties" section said which use case requires which property and why, or better yet, list under each use case what this specific use case implies about desirable properties for a solution
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  1004. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> Hmm. Is it possible to add a function to Number that operates on the value?
  1005. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> Number.prototype.add(that) { return this+that; } doesn't work.
  1006. # [22:43] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: this is a Number object in that situation
  1007. # [22:44] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: this.valueOf() gives you the Number primitive
  1008. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> Hmm, I'm getting a screwy result here that's probably unrelated...
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  1010. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Oh jeez, I see what I did wrong. Never mind.
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  1012. # [22:53] <metron> hi
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  1014. # [22:55] <metron> Iam still reading webdev books but I can't any discussion about integration concepts of HTML5 standards, where I can find that stuff? thx
  1015. # [22:55] <metron> +find
  1016. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> What do you mean?
  1017. # [22:56] <metron> Tab: information integration from old websites maybe
  1018. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> I still don't understand what you mean. Could you rephrase in different words?
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  1021. # [22:59] <annevk> hmm
  1022. # [22:59] <annevk> with Lion my connection is dropped way more often
  1023. # [22:59] <annevk> bah
  1024. # [22:59] <annevk> IRC connection at least
  1025. # [23:00] <metron> Tab: I use to work with html5 but Iam not so experienced with it, still reading books, now friends ask me how those old html4 / xhtml sites will be integrated to the new html5 type of website.
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  1028. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> metron, you can just add features incrementally. HTML5 features work in HTML4 pages and vice versa.
  1029. # [23:02] <metron> Tab: just by doing all changes manually? just renaming elements and stuff like that?
  1030. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> It's all totally compatible.
  1031. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> Use whatever features are useful to you, you don't have to rewrite your pages if you don't want to.
  1032. # 03[23:02] * jer|afk is now known as jernoble|afk
  1033. # [23:03] <metron> Aryeh: ok, hmm
  1034. # [23:03] <D^mien> see metron html5 aims to be backwards compatible with existing content
  1035. # [23:04] <D^mien> html5 acknoledges previously existing elements even when those elements are no longer in html5
  1036. # [23:04] <D^mien> With HTML5, anything goes. Uppercase, lowercase, quoted, unquoted, self-closing or not; it’s entirely up to you.
  1037. # 02[23:05] * Quits: cygri (~cygri@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: cygri)
  1038. # [23:05] <D^mien> i'm just getting started with it, but so far it sure is a beauty to work with :D
  1039. # [23:06] <D^mien> the easisest way to start switching to html5, change doctype to <!DOCTYPE HTML5>
  1040. # [23:06] <metron> D^mien: k
  1041. # [23:06] <D^mien> :)
  1042. # [23:06] <D^mien> A good book that got me started was HTML5 for webdesigners by Jeremy Keith
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  1044. # [23:07] <jamesr> and find a good validator/linter
  1045. # [23:08] <metron> I think I'll use netbeans, it was very useful for me with php5.3
  1046. # [23:09] <annevk> euh D^mien
  1047. # [23:09] <annevk> doctype is <!DOCTYPE HTML>
  1048. # [23:09] <metron> D^mien: good to know about, thx
  1049. # [23:09] <annevk> no 5
  1050. # [23:09] <D^mien> haha ya
  1051. # [23:09] <D^mien> duh
  1052. # [23:09] <D^mien> sorry
  1053. # [23:09] <metron> ^^
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  1055. # [23:09] <D^mien> thanks for clearing that up, forgot no5
  1056. # [23:09] <D^mien> lol
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  1058. # [23:11] <annevk> Is it just me or is Daring Fireball reading like Fox News when it comes to Google?
  1059. # [23:12] <metron> D^mien: Maybe I should read that book you suggested
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  1067. # [23:19] <annevk> shit
  1068. # [23:19] <annevk> flamed on G+
  1069. # [23:19] <annevk> never did that on Facebook
  1070. # 02[23:20] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1071. # 03[23:20] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@208-90-212-189.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  1072. # 02[23:22] * Quits: MrDoublesite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1073. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> You can edit your posts, right?
  1074. # 03[23:23] * Joins: David_Bradbury (~chatzilla@75-147-178-254-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  1075. # [23:24] <Hixie> annevk: d'oh!
  1076. # 03[23:24] * Joins: MrDoublesite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  1077. # [23:24] <Hixie> annevk: url!
  1078. # 06[23:24] * Hixie grabs popcorn
  1079. # [23:25] <dglazkov> othermaciej: sounds good!
  1080. # 03[23:26] * jernoble|afk is now known as jer|afk
  1081. # 02[23:27] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  1082. # 03[23:29] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  1083. # 02[23:29] * Quits: oknoway (~oknoway@72.11.82.226) (Quit: oknoway)
  1084. # [23:30] <annevk> not that bad
  1085. # [23:30] <annevk> https://plus.google.com/112095156983892490612/posts/EMADdvHSRbH
  1086. # [23:30] <annevk> Julian brought his splitting argument up again, I sneered about HTTP going so fast
  1087. # [23:31] <annevk> (HTTP is now split into 7-10 drafts or so)
  1088. # [23:31] <annevk> (a giant mess if you ask me, I can never find what I'm looking for)
  1089. # [23:31] <Hixie> HTTP is a disaster
  1090. # [23:33] <annevk> I like how that RDF thread goes on again about how the toolchain will save you
  1091. # [23:34] <Hixie> RDF equally a disaster
  1092. # [23:34] <Hixie> RDF might even be worse
  1093. # [23:34] <annevk> Web developers hardly use tools
  1094. # [23:34] <annevk> And pretty much requiring them to use tools will just mean less people develop, which seems bad
  1095. # [23:34] <Hixie> what i like about the rdf tool thing is the way the dude was like "write a script? hello no, you'd write sparql instead!"
  1096. # [23:34] <Hixie> how is that not a script!
  1097. # 03[23:34] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  1098. # [23:35] <The_8472> that's because the standards are so bad that you have to implement a whole browser before you can start making tools.
  1099. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> Most web authors use tools of some kind, like CMSes.
  1100. # [23:35] <Hixie> people totally use tools all the time
  1101. # [23:35] <The_8472> it's like your server-side code IDE has to integrate the whole client side too
  1102. # [23:35] <Hixie> but you cannot rely on a tool to save a technology that is too complicated to hang-author
  1103. # [23:35] <Hixie> hand
  1104. # [23:35] <zewt> web developers hardly use tools because largely the tools suck, heh
  1105. # [23:35] <The_8472> works with xml
  1106. # [23:36] <zewt> been getting better lately but at a snail's pace and still far from a mature environment
  1107. # [23:36] <The_8472> nobody touches multi-megabyte XML files by hand
  1108. # [23:36] <Hixie> and XML has been a failure on the web :-)
  1109. # [23:36] <zewt> you could have stopped at "failure"
  1110. # [23:36] <The_8472> but not a failure as technology in general
  1111. # [23:36] <gsnedders> RDF is certainly successful, though, even if it's not successful on the public web.
  1112. # [23:36] <annevk> zewt, there are perfectly fine XML parsers and yet people seem to do it with regexp every now and then
  1113. # 02[23:36] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 257 seconds)
  1114. # [23:36] <The_8472> crazy people
  1115. # [23:36] <zewt> annevk: unfortunately, you can't spec away incompetence
  1116. # [23:37] <annevk> no
  1117. # [23:37] <annevk> you just have to take that into account
  1118. # [23:37] <The_8472> you can. but that means your spec has to include fail-fast, fail-hard provisions. which may be good for quality, but usually not for adoption.
  1119. # [23:38] <Hixie> no it doesn't
  1120. # [23:38] <Hixie> CSS is a great example
  1121. # [23:38] <Hixie> it handles typos fine, without hard-failure
  1122. # [23:39] <Hixie> only local failure
  1123. # [23:39] <The_8472> which leads/has lead to different browser behavior depending on how it dealt with your typo
  1124. # [23:39] <hober> I've been trying to get people to call this 'argumentum ad adminiculum'
  1125. # [23:40] <hober> because it's a fallacy that comes up over and over and over again
  1126. # [23:40] <hober> "it's ok that it's crazy-complex, because people don't author things, tools do"
  1127. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> The_8472: CSS's typo recovery is very well-defined. Differing behavior is bugs.
  1128. # [23:40] <The_8472> TabAtkins, tell that to those years of browser hacks relying on inconsistent handling.
  1129. # [23:41] <annevk> cool, Norm Walsh shows QR codes on printed pages
  1130. # [23:41] <Hixie> hober: i usually reply "and who authors the tools?"
  1131. # [23:41] <hober> Hixie: exactly. it's turtles all the way down
  1132. # [23:41] <zewt> hober: of course, even for formats which are always output by tools (binary formats), you still have people writing tools that do it wrong, heh
  1133. # [23:41] <annevk> not sure if QR codes are still cool, but it's definitely better than URLs users have to type over
  1134. # [23:41] <Hixie> The_8472: that's the cause of a bad spec, not a necessary feature of error recovery
  1135. # [23:41] <Dashiva> QR is totally last year
  1136. # [23:41] <hober> annevk: were qr codes ever cool?
  1137. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> The_8472: Um, they're still bugs. I don't see what point you're trying to make.
  1138. # [23:41] <zewt> (parsing AVIs in the wild? good luck)
  1139. # [23:41] <hober> zewt: true, true
  1140. # [23:42] <zewt> of course, that was never really a well-specified format to begin with
  1141. # [23:42] <The_8472> TabAtkins, the point? that browser hacks wouldn't have existed if browsers were fail-hard and we might have seen actual feature-detecting emerging much earlier.
  1142. # [23:43] <gsnedders> The_8472: People would've just done browser hacks based upon other nbugs.
  1143. # [23:43] <gsnedders> *bugs
  1144. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Dude, you kidding? Fail-hard CSS would have frozen the technology very early on. Local-fail is a necessary part of how CSS allows new tech.
  1145. # [23:43] <The_8472> i think java is a good example for tools alleviating *some* complexity. you can write java without IDEs. but having one to back you up is a huge boon if you have to work with other people's code. it being very computer-friendly (static typing allowing lots of analysis) helps of course
  1146. # [23:44] <The_8472> TabAtkins, i'm talking about syntax. not about permitted values.
  1147. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> They're one and the same. An unknown property is the same as a syntax error.
  1148. # [23:44] <The_8472> permitted values is just a matter of well-defined forwards-compatibility
  1149. # [23:44] <zewt> writing java without an IDE is a fast path to migraines
  1150. # 02[23:45] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@178.74.10.250) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
  1151. # [23:45] <zewt> (but only because java code tends to be split into 10x as many files as necessary, often in directory structures ten levels deep)
  1152. # [23:45] <Hixie> well-defined forwards-compatibility is basically the same as fail-local
  1153. # [23:46] <Hixie> you can have well-defined forwards-compatibility in syntax, in values, in semantics, etc
  1154. # [23:46] <The_8472> xml has forwards-compatibility with namespaces and yet is fail-hard on its core syntax (preventing tag-soup)
  1155. # [23:46] <Hixie> but in each case, it's a matter of handling a current failure in a graceful and predictable but non-fatal way
  1156. # 02[23:46] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  1157. # [23:46] <Hixie> The_8472: right, and that means it doesn't have well-defined forwards-compatibility for syntax changes
  1158. # [23:47] <The_8472> have there been any major syntax changes in html?
  1159. # [23:48] <gsnedders> The_8472: Adding more self-closing tags, adding foreign content… IE allowing ` as an attribute quote char, Opera allowing far more whitespace chars in tags.
  1160. # 03[23:48] * jer|afk is now known as jernoble
  1161. # [23:48] <Hixie> The_8472: yes
  1162. # [23:48] <Hixie> The_8472: e.g. we added inline svg/mathml
  1163. # [23:48] <The_8472> see, none of those things are essential features that really improve the language
  1164. # [23:49] <The_8472> namespaces could have done that in the case of xml. in fact, they do exactly that
  1165. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Um, really?
  1166. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Never being allowed to add more self-closing tags is a good thing?
  1167. # [23:49] <The_8472> yes
  1168. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Well, I'd have to disagree with that.
  1169. # [23:49] <The_8472> if by selfclosing you mean things like <p>
  1170. # [23:49] <Hixie> The_8472: the point is not that there are syntax changes that people want to add to xml but can't in a backwards-compatible way, the point is that if there were, it wouldn't matter, because it would be impossible to add them
  1171. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> I mean things like <source>.
  1172. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> Or <img>, for an older example.
  1173. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> Where there's no closing tag.
  1174. # [23:50] <gsnedders> The_8472: XML 1.0 Fifth Edition is a backwards incompatible change in XML, likewise XML 1.1
  1175. # [23:51] <The_8472> 1.1 -> goes into the header -> is an extension point
  1176. # [23:51] <Hixie> not a backwards-compatible one
  1177. # [23:51] <The_8472> obviously it would be nuts using a 1.0 parser on 1.1 code.
  1178. # [23:51] <Hixie> so much so that 1.1 was basically killed in favour of 1.0 5th ed
  1179. # [23:51] <Hixie> not "obviously" at all.
  1180. # [23:51] <gsnedders> The_8472: And 5th ed?
  1181. # [23:51] <Hixie> people use html4-era parsers on html5-era pages all the time
  1182. # [23:52] <Hixie> that's what backwards-compatibility enables
  1183. # 03[23:53] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  1184. # [23:53] <The_8472> except that svg doesn't work. so it fails in unpredictable ways, depending on how complete the environment is in which you run it
  1185. # [23:54] <Hixie> that's because html4 didn't define parsing
  1186. # [23:54] <Hixie> when we add new syntax in a future revision, we'll be able to exactly predict the failure modes
  1187. # [23:55] <The_8472> the thing is you can't assume anything will work at all. user might have javascript off. or it might be an old parser. or it might not support a random feature. so you have to test with all browser versions
  1188. # [23:55] <Hixie> i'm just saying that fail-hard prevents having well-defined forwards-compatibility
  1189. # [23:56] <Hixie> i'm not arguing that having well-defined forwards-compatibility makes everything bug-free
  1190. # [23:56] <Hixie> or that web development is easy because of having well-defined forwards-compatibility
  1191. # [23:57] <The_8472> well, ok. it does make moving forward easier. but it causes quite some headaches too. and imo in some places fail-hard is useful
  1192. # [23:57] <Hixie> there are times fail-hard is useful, but they're rare on the web
  1193. # [23:57] <Hixie> can't speak about headaches
  1194. # [23:57] <Hixie> q.v. the /topic
  1195. # 02[23:59] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1196. # Session Close: Fri Jul 22 00:00:00 2011

The end :)