/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-22 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Jul 22 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:01] <metron> Hixie: what you ment with "fail-hard"?
# [00:01] <annevk> almost done with DOM Traversal o_O
# [00:01] <Hixie> metron: handling an error by entirely refusing to process the resource
# [00:01] <annevk> well, except for like introductory text and stuff
# [00:01] <Hixie> metron: JS and XML are examples of fail-hard languages at the syntax level
# [00:02] <annevk> and a few more methods, and getting killed by jgraham for using hard-to-read-algorithms
# [00:02] <Hixie> well here's a shocker
# [00:02] <Hixie> the spec doesn't seem to require that browsers let users follow hyperlinks
# [00:03] <Hixie> or even encourage it
# [00:03] <Hixie> am i missing something i wrote somewhere?
# [00:03] <Hixie> it has text for <area> and <link>...
# [00:04] <annevk> implemented <a> with a table the other day
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# [00:09] <The_8472> mhh... replace capital punishment with the task to rewrite the spec to derive everything from tables.
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# [00:10] <annevk> it's actually a reference to an old joke; the claim was a table (an ordinary non-computer one) with quotation marks around it was a conforming HTML4 user agent
# [00:10] <Hixie> not just any able, dbaron's desk at harvard ;-)
# 06[00:11] * The_8472 is confused
# [00:11] <annevk> :)
# [00:13] <Hixie> The_8472: HTML4 includes only one testable requirement on browsers
# [00:13] <Hixie> The_8472: which is that <q> elements must be surrounded by quotation marks
# [00:13] <Hixie> The_8472: so an ordinary desk with a pair of quotation marks engraved in it is a compliant HTML4 browser
# [00:14] <The_8472> ah, semantic lawyering.
# [00:14] <Hixie> not just semantic lawyering. it has also made it near impossible to write test suites for html4.
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# [00:14] <Hixie> (fixing this is one of the greatest achievments of the new html spec)
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# [00:32] <dbaron> Hixie, The_8472, the other testable requirement was that it treat SGML-equivalent streams the same... but doing nothing all the time is treating them the same
# [00:33] <Hixie> ah yes
# [00:33] <Hixie> a requirement which, incidentally, no browser ever implemented
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# [00:45] <TabAtkins> Except for dbaron's desk.
# [00:46] <dbaron> not a browser
# [00:46] <TabAtkins> Okay, granted.
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# [00:47] <Dashiva> Dunno, did html4 define what a browser is?
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# [00:49] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#traversal
# [00:49] <annevk> still need TreeWalker previousNode/nextNode
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# [00:53] <metron> annevk: I thought XLink will do that for us?!
# 03[00:53] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
# [00:54] <annevk> if XLink is not out already it is on its way
# [00:54] <annevk> this is some legacy DOM API that ended up in Acid3 but was not really fully defined
# [00:54] <annevk> now it is, presumably with new bugs
# [00:55] <Hixie> hober: (fwiw, i filed a bug on that circle ordering thing. i have the same problem around the same number of circles.)
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# [01:03] <metron> annevk: k, so I'll change my mind with XLink
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# [01:04] <annevk> metron, rule of thumb: specs where the initial letter is an "X" are not really making it these days
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# [01:09] <metron> annevk: hmm, .oO(…she mean Xing too?) ;)
# [01:09] <TabAtkins> (Btw, annevk's a dude.)
# [01:09] <TabAtkins> (He's dutch, where "anne" is a common male name.)
# [01:10] <metron> ups
# [01:10] <metron> annevk: sry, wasn't know that
# [01:11] <TabAtkins> Don't worry, I'm pretty sure everyone makes that mistake once, unless they see him in person first or catch someone using a gendered pronoun on him.
# [01:12] <metron> its late, I think, I'll have to go off
# [01:12] <metron> thx for helping me out
# [01:12] <metron> cya guys
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# [01:16] <annevk> at the airports they typically look from me to my passport and back again etc.
# [01:17] <annevk> some of these people even ask, "is this really you?"
# [01:17] <annevk> wtf are passports for...
# [01:18] <Philip`> You could have mixed up your passport with your identical other-gendered twin
# [01:18] <zewt> (the Usual Internet Ratio just red-flagged it for me to begin with, so I checked, heh)
# [01:18] <Philip`> Presumably if they thought you were really trying to trick them, they'd have to interrogate you more thoroughly than asking "is this really you?"
# [01:24] <Dashiva> Nah
# [01:24] <Dashiva> They're just waiting for someone to answer "No" sarcastically, so they can arrest you
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# [08:31] <Hixie> can anyone think of anything that would make a browsing context navigation do something other than change the document, other than:
# [08:31] <Hixie> - content-disposition: attachment
# [08:31] <Hixie> - unrecognised content-type triggering a download
# [08:31] <Hixie> - http 204 or 205 response
# [08:32] <Hixie> - network error in a browser that displays a dialog instead of an inline page for network errors
# [08:32] <Hixie> - a scheme being one that triggers a helper app (e.g. mailto:)
# [08:32] <Hixie> ...?
# [08:32] <wirepair> security validation error (certs)
# [08:32] <Hixie> ooh, good call
# [08:33] <wirepair> other than that... hmm
# [08:34] <wirepair> maybe plugins taking over the context, like flash or something?
# [08:34] <Hixie> that changes the document
# [08:35] <Hixie> i can't think of others any either, fwiw
# [08:35] <Hixie> didn't even think of the crypto one :-)
# [08:35] <wirepair> right. then yeah that should be it hehe
# 06[08:43] * Hixie adds yet another reference
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# [08:46] <JennaBerry> Any W3C people around?
# [08:47] <JennaBerry> I have a question about CSS
# [08:47] <Hixie> you probably don't want w3c people then, more css people :-)
# [08:47] <smaug____> JennaBerry: just ask and someone may answer
# [08:48] <JennaBerry> I'd like to submit a section into CSS that deals with CSS-based image sprites and multiple backgrounds, so that you can reduce code and not work with extra images/libraries/scripts/styles
# [08:48] <Hixie> already exists and supported in several browsers
# [08:49] <JennaBerry> Oh?
# [08:49] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/
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# [08:52] <JennaBerry> Can't find the exact thing I'm looking for.
# [08:52] <JennaBerry> I'd like something that places images, repeats or stretches them and does all sorts of things, but not to the whole object, so that you can create a button-element with a single image, cut into three parts (left, middle, right) and positioned accordingly as the background
# [08:53] <JennaBerry> even with the current multiple backgrounds, repeat goes from one side to the other, instead of stopping at, say, 10px off the edge
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# [08:54] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#border-images
# [08:55] <JennaBerry> The elements should also have contents
# [08:56] <Hixie> the elements can have contents
# [08:57] <JennaBerry> Does the border image also allow for backgrounds?
# [08:57] <Hixie> the border image also allows for backgrounds
# [08:57] <JennaBerry> I mean, without using a second image
# [08:57] <Hixie> without using a second image
# [08:57] <Hixie> (or with, both work)
# [08:57] <JennaBerry> Interesting...
# [08:58] <Hixie> this is already implemented in at least chrome
# [08:58] <JennaBerry> Does it always stretch?
# [08:58] <Hixie> dude just read the spec :-)
# [08:58] <JennaBerry> Sorry... I've been working all night :P
# [08:58] <JennaBerry> It's easier to ask, but yeah... I will
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# [08:59] <Hixie> sorry, kinda busy here :-)
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# [08:59] <Hixie> there's probably some tutorials you can google for
# [08:59] <Hixie> the spec isn't the easiest thing to read
# [08:59] <JennaBerry> I can read spec :)
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# [08:59] <JennaBerry> I did that for SVG, yesterday
# [08:59] <JennaBerry> And then found out WebKit doesn't have effects :|
# [09:01] <smaug____> use gecko :p
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# [09:02] <JennaBerry> I'm building a Safari Extension's configuration page... so it's not really possible to use Gecko
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# [10:24] <jgraham> Hmm, isn't overloading functions based on number of arguments rather common in non-DOM js?
# [10:24] <jgraham> Like in jQuery?
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# [12:39] <annevk> holy shit
# [12:40] <annevk> ALT+left directional key works in Terminal.app
# [12:40] <annevk> *happy*
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# [12:41] <jgraham> Have they fixed it yet so you can enter characters not on your keyboard when you have the alt-sends-meta option selected?
# 06[12:41] * jgraham thinks not being able to type ä or whatever into terminals is a bit ridiculous
# [12:41] <smaug____> Does Terminal.app not hang anymore when using gdb?
# [12:42] <jgraham> In general is terminal.app no longer crappy? :)
# [12:42] <annevk> jgraham, smaug____, no idea
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# [12:42] <annevk> it does what I need :)
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# [12:58] <smaug____> AryehGregor: seems like the range draft doesn't handle ReplaceData nor AppendData cases
# [13:00] <jgraham> Firefox has disabled typing javascript: URIs into the address bar?
# [13:01] <smaug____> there is a pref to enable it
# [13:01] <smaug____> though, IIRC, even then it is run in a sandbox
# [13:01] <jgraham> Is there some announcement about the change?
# [13:03] <smaug____> looking...
# [13:03] <jgraham> (or a bug number)
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# [13:07] <annevk> we should really define following/preceding
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# [13:07] <smaug____> jgraham: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527530 is the meta bug
# [13:12] <jgraham> smaug____: Thanks
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# [13:47] <foolip_> Hixie, ping?
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# [14:14] <smaug____> AryehGregor: also, I wonder how you ended up with the splitText handling
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# [14:30] <Ms2ger>
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# [14:40] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Huh?
# [14:40] <Ms2ger> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/file/9a02cfae1bdb/Overview.src.html#l3873
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# [14:41] <jgraham> Oh. Clearly payman_ is insane
# [14:42] <jgraham> Sorry annevk
# [14:42] <jgraham> +,
# [14:43] <jgraham> Although payman_ is probably also insane
# [14:56] <bga_> <a download="foo.txt" href="data:...">Download generated data</a>
# [14:56] <bga_> new attr is very good idea
# [14:56] <jgraham> annevk: "Let sibling be the preceding sibling of node" doesn't account for node not having a preceding sibling. I assume sibling is supposed to be null or something there
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# [15:04] <jgraham> Also, I am missing simething about 3.2.3 in the previouNode algorithm
# [15:04] <jgraham> *something
# [15:04] <jgraham> Oh wait
# [15:06] <jgraham> It's fine
# [15:06] <jgraham> (I really wish you made "return" imply "and terminate these steps"
# [15:06] <jgraham> we don't have coroutines)
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# [15:28] <annevk> jgraham, it does not always mean that
# [15:28] <annevk> though maybe in DOM Core it does
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# [15:34] <jgraham> annevk: "return" meaning multiple differrnt thigns seems like a bug that should be fixed
# [15:36] <annevk> it does not mean multiple things
# [15:36] <annevk> but e.g. XMLHttpRequest.send() can return and still continue running
# [15:36] <linclark> so the HTML WG used a lot of data about how people were using classes to create the new semantic elements, right?
# [15:37] <linclark> if that is right, does anyone have a link to the data?
# [15:37] <linclark> I remember adactio talking about it I think, but can't find link
# [15:37] <annevk> the raw data is not available
# [15:37] <annevk> a summary is available here: http://code.google.com/webstats/
# [15:37] <linclark> ahhhhh, awesome
# [15:37] <linclark> thanks!
# [15:37] <annevk> it is from 2005 though, hopefully at some point a new study is done
# [15:38] <adactio> linclark: Note though, that the research was done *after* the new structural elements had already been named (if I recall correctly). So the data provided *justification* but wasn't necessarily the origin of the element names.
# [15:39] <linclark> oh, ok, didn't realize that. thanks for the clarifications
# [15:39] <adactio> John Allsopp also did some research 'round about the same time (2005), if I recall.
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# [15:40] <adactio> Here's John's study (a smaller sample than Google's, obviously): http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/real_world_sema.html
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# [15:49] <Hixie> foolip_: pong
# [15:49] <foolip_> Hixie, I filed two bugs instead
# [15:49] <Hixie> k thanks
# [15:49] <foolip_> was just going to ask if putting defaultMuted on HTMLMediaElement was intentional
# 06[15:49] * annevk wonders if Hixie is in California
# [15:50] <Hixie> btw the way that the IETF leaves obsolete specs on the web instead of replacing specs when they're updated makes the RFC space _even worse than the TR page_
# [15:50] <Hixie> it's like the W3C and the IETF compete for how badly they can do web standards
# [15:50] <Hixie> annevk: yes
# [15:50] <Hixie> foolip_: yes
# [15:50] <Hixie> foolip_: why would it not be?
# [15:50] <annevk> so is it morning for you or just late? :)
# [15:50] <foolip_> Hixie, like poster="", muted="" does nothing for <audio>
# [15:50] <Hixie> morning
# [15:51] <Hixie> foolip_: i thought i made muted="" do something on audio?
# [15:51] <foolip_> oh, wait a second
# [15:51] <foolip_> it says "When a media element is created, if it has a muted attribute specified, the user agent must set the muted IDL attribute to true, overriding any user preference."
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# [15:52] <foolip_> sloppy reading on my part, I'll close the bug as invalid and just implement the spec
# [15:52] <Hixie> k :-)
# [15:52] <Hixie> i don't really mind, we can make it video-only, but it seemed simpler to just make things the same everywhere where possible
# [15:53] <foolip_> this is what confused me: "The muted attribute on the video element controls"
# [15:53] <foolip_> but it's actually defined on both audio and video
# [15:54] <foolip_> do you want a bug on that?
# [15:55] <hsivonen> hmm. Microdata may get corrupted if someone does <script itemprop=foo> and a sanizer zaps scripts
# [15:55] <hsivonen> I guess I'll worry about that if it becomes a Real Problem
# [15:55] <foolip_> hsivonen, same thing for <object>, right?
# [15:55] <hsivonen> foolip_: oh, good point
# [15:55] <foolip_> and attribute whitelists...
# [15:55] <hsivonen> foolip_: I'm whitelisting Microdata
# [15:56] <foolip_> hsivonen, you're writing a sanitizer?
# [15:56] <hsivonen> foolip_: yes
# [15:56] <hsivonen> foolip_: well, it's mostly written. I'm just fixing the obvious problem that <link itemprop> and <meta itemprop> got dropped
# [15:56] <hsivonen> and now I see further problems
# [15:57] <foolip_> hsivonen, what would you expect <script itemprop> to do?
# [15:58] <hsivonen> foolip_: make the textContent of the element be the value of the property
# [15:58] <foolip_> <script src="foo" itemprop="prop"> isn't reflected by itemValue the way you might expect, though
# [15:58] <foolip_> that inconsistency would be a bit iffy, IMO
# [15:58] <Hixie> foolip_: sure
# 06[15:59] * Philip` thought the IETF deleting specs after 6 months was a worse problem than them keeping specs around for too long, since it forces you to look in less-official places to find archived copies
# [15:59] <Hixie> sanitizers corrupt pages, that's what they're for :-)
# [15:59] <hsivonen> dropping <object> worries me now more than dropping <script>
# [15:59] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah that's pretty messed up too
# [15:59] <annevk> that's fixed by just using tools.ietf.org
# [15:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: I could make non-whitelisted elements that have Microdata turn into spans
# [16:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: or <meta>
# [16:00] <jgraham> Oh, but that doesn't work I guess
# [16:00] <Philip`> tools.ietf.org links to updated versions of obsoleted drafts so I suppose it helps with both problems
# [16:00] <Philip`> ...as long as you find your way to an HTML version, not a text version
# [16:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: but I guess this patch has been in bz's review queue for long enough that I'll leave that kind of feature creep for another bug
# [16:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: what's the use case for round-tripping microdata through a sanitizer?
# [16:01] <Hixie> annevk: in case you're planning on replying to Takeshi, note that i've already said on public-webapps that i don't care if we force the extension on or off, so long as we force it one way or the other
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# [16:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: the same as round-tripping Content MathML: Not destroying invisible data that doesn't need to be destroyed when someone pastes it into contenteditable
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# [16:06] <Hixie> that doesn't seem like a realistic use case
# [16:06] <Hixie> it's just gonna cause the data to be corrupted when the user fiddles with the content
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# [16:09] <hsivonen> is switching the twitter avatar into a monkey face a new fad or a twitter bug? I think I've seen two people now use the same monkey face.
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# [16:16] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe it's just a coincidence that two people have chosen a face of a monkey as their avatars instead of their own face
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# [16:19] <heedly> What error does the video tag fire when it can't find the requested media?
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# [16:24] <manu`> Any Opera folks in Oslo, Norway? Everyone okay there?
# [16:26] <manu`> Reason I ask is because a bomb has just gone off there - targetting the PM's government office: https://plus.google.com/102122664946994504971/posts/HRjA3xr8wXy
# [16:27] <jgraham> That's not good…
# [16:29] <hsivonen> BBC is running the story, so I guess the tweets are for real
# [16:29] <Hixie> hsivonen, MikeSmith: apologies, i forgot to mark the download="" revision as affecting conformance checkers
# [16:30] <scor> http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2011-07-22.html#T13-45-08
# [16:30] <wilhelm> hsivonen: Yes, there was a blast: http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7722919
# [16:30] <Hixie> bbl
# [16:31] <wilhelm> Lots of glass, but little structural damage, it seems.
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# [16:32] <hsivonen> wilhelm: I saw a tweet saying than "An entire block has exploded"
# [16:32] <manu`> Opera HQ is 2km away from the bombing location
# [16:32] <hsivonen> *that
# [16:32] <manu`> Prime Minister's government HQ was attacked - PM is okay.
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# [16:36] <wilhelm> hsivonen: Well, this is where it hit: http://static01.vg.no/drfront/images/2011-07/22/88-0c8d07aa-11a997f9.jpeg
# [16:36] <wilhelm> There are windows blown out more than a kilometer away.
# [16:36] <wilhelm> Same building: http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174138/17413824/jpg/active/978x_13197743.jpg
# [16:37] <AryehGregor> smaug____ (who isn't here): the draft doesn't have to special-case replaceData/appendData because when it was written, those just called insertData/deleteData. Now annevk has rewritten that in DOM Core at my request, and I'll rewrite the Range stuff soon to work with the new wording. As for splitText, see the comments in the spec's HTML source. IIRC, I copied the behavior from WebKit, who made it up; it makes a lot of sense, and IIRC roc t
# [16:37] <AryehGregor> hought it was a good idea. Without that special-case I'd have to add a bunch of different execCommand() special-cases, so it's no simpler, and authors don't get the improved behavior.
# [16:40] <foolip_> heedly, that would be MEDIA_ERR_NETWORK
# [16:41] <foolip_> well, it doesn't "fire" MEDIA_ERR_NETWORK, it fires an error event and video.error.code is MEDIA_ERR_NETWORK
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# [16:48] <annevk> jgraham, defined next/previous sibling now and they include null; thanks!
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# [16:49] <annevk> jgraham, btw, it actually got worse from that bring it on comment
# [16:49] <annevk> jgraham, search for "innermost" o_O
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# [16:52] <jgraham> annevk: I saw that. You are insane
# [16:53] <foolip_> hsivonen, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13329
# [16:53] <annevk> I just try to get things done until I have a better way to say things
# [16:54] <foolip_> right now validator.nu is saying "Attribute muted not allowed on element audio at this point."
# [16:54] <foolip_> where should I file a bug?
# [16:54] <jgraham> Well I think it is good that you defined this stuff :)
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# [16:56] <hsivonen> foolip_: bugzilla.validator.nu is the place, but no need to file a bug, since I can just go ahead and fix it now
# [16:56] <foolip_> hsivonen, much appreciated
# [16:57] <foolip_> you might want to double-check the spec so that I'm not confused again
# [16:57] <foolip_> I'm not 100% sure what the normative part is, but the intention is fairly clear
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# [17:04] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/from-origin/ WD'd
# [17:06] <Ms2ger> annevk++
# [17:07] <hsivonen> ouch. looks like my ISP has changed my IP address so now my servers don't let me in
# [17:07] <hsivonen> good thing I have alternative permitted IP addresses to connect from
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# [17:10] <annevk> Ms2ger, back at you for fixing the date :)
# [17:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: That sounds like quite an odd security measure. Was it opt-in?
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# [17:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: it's self-configured
# [17:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: maybe my tin-foil hat is too thick
# [17:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: but seems potentially useful in case sshd has vulnerabilities
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# [17:15] <Ms2ger> annevk, so, when do we obsolete it for a fetching spec? :)
# [17:16] <AryehGregor> Hmm, so when you share a post on G+ it looks like it's designed so as to encourage people to comment on your share instead of the original post? That's not what I want.
# [17:17] <hsivonen> heh: "The problem is RDFa is horrifically badly designed for those use cases (either because it'd badly designed, or because it wasn't intended for those use cases — I've always thought the latter, but Manu insists it's the former), and has only been getting worse." (Hixie on G+)
# [17:17] <annevk> Ms2ger, when I forget why I hate working on networking specs
# [17:17] <Ms2ger> :)
# [17:18] <AryehGregor> Anyway, this is a potentially interesting discussion: https://plus.google.com/u/0/112095156983892490612/posts/EMADdvHSRbH
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# [17:18] <annevk> AryehGregor, yeah, people comment on your version of the share, but clicking on share, shares the original share
# [17:19] <annevk> I think that is really confusing, but whatever
# [17:19] <annevk> euh, shares what is shared
# [17:19] <AryehGregor> I'd like something that just copies the original discussion to everyone who's following me.
# [17:19] <AryehGregor> Without giving them any new place to leave comments.
# [17:19] <AryehGregor> Like "hey, look at this interesting discussion, go and comment there".
# [17:20] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: whoa. I thought the comments went onto the original
# [17:20] <annevk> just close comments on your share
# [17:20] <hsivonen> but now that I checked, it's not the case
# [17:20] <annevk> and mention that people should go to the original
# [17:20] <AryehGregor> Ah, you can close comments.
# [17:20] <hsivonen> for whatever reason, the RDFa discussion is happening on my share instead of Craig Kellog's original
# [17:20] <AryehGregor> Is there a link to the original post? I didn't actually see one.
# [17:21] <hsivonen> I don't see a link
# [17:22] <annevk> https://plus.google.com/u/0/112095156983892490612/posts/EMADdvHSRbH
# [17:22] <AryehGregor> Can I add links to comments somehow?
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# [17:22] <annevk> oh the RDFa one
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# [17:23] <dylangluck> Hey guys, I'm new to the group. My name is Dylan Gluck and I am a Front-End Developer at Mars Design in NYC. I am a big fan of what you guys are doing, and would like to support in any way I can
# [17:24] <annevk> be careful now ;)
# [17:24] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Specifications_TODO
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# [17:24] <annevk> dylangluck, there is also http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/What_you_can_do
# [17:25] <dylangluck> Awesome! thanks annevk. I will definitely look over everything
# [17:25] <foolip_> hsivonen, it's too bad that you can comment on a share at all, as opposed to commenting on the original...
# [17:25] <foolip_> they seem to have optimized for the edge case where you reshare to exclude some people from the original post
# [17:26] <annevk> hmm the wiki just went down? Hixie
# [17:26] <dylangluck> yes I am getting no response
# [17:26] <annevk> "Using an outdated version of a specification isn't comparable to using the old version of bash that ships with the enterprise Linux distro you use, it's more like planning your vacation using a decades-old globe that still has the USSR on it. You're using something that's known to be wrong, and your only hope is that the errors happen not to affect whatever part of the spec you're relying on."
# [17:27] <annevk> I like that one AryehGregor :)
# [17:27] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor++
# [17:27] <hsivonen> foolip_: having a "Share" function on non-Public posts is questionable in the first place
# [17:27] <foolip_> hsivonen, indeed, it's too pad it's not more like retweet on twitter
# [17:27] <dylangluck> back up after db error
# [17:27] <AryehGregor> Yeah, seems weird to me.
# [17:27] <foolip_> bad
# 06[17:28] * Philip` wonders if you could write an actual science fiction novel in the form of a specification
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# [17:28] <dylangluck> haha ^
# [17:28] <hsivonen> new-style retweets are also nicer, because they collapse
# [17:28] <dylangluck> Thanks for the info guys, I will definitely be back
# [17:28] <MacTed> encouraging background image watermarks that proclaim "obsolete" on relevant pages, and perhaps encouraging (creating?) <link @rel="obsoleted by"> and/or <link rel="obsoletes">, could go far with IETF, W3C, and others who want to preserve historical docs at their original URIs...
# [17:28] <MacTed> unfortunately, <link rel="canonical"> requires starting from the position that "this doc will change" and few standards are created with their evolution in mind.
# [17:28] <annevk> dylangluck, sorry about that; most people typically start out by giving feedback on specs
# [17:28] <hober> We MUST niuke it from orbit. It MAY be the only way to be sure.
# [17:28] <dylangluck> absolutely
# [17:29] <hsivonen> when 5 people reshare a post in my stream, I'd like their commentary to stack onto one item instead of having 5 items
# [17:29] <dylangluck> i am not a preogrammer
# [17:29] <annevk> dylangluck, but there's also writing tests (which involves giving feedback), and writing specs if you're up for it
# [17:29] <foolip_> Philip`, I'd read it!
# [17:29] <Ms2ger> Writing tests would be awesome
# [17:29] <annevk> hsivonen, you want RT
# [17:29] <Philip`> You could hint at lots of background through examples and references and implicit assumptions about what's implementable, so I imagine it wouldn't be impossible to tell a story
# [17:29] <Ms2ger> foolip_, more than a page of it? :)
# [17:30] <scor> AryehGregor, hsivonen: is that the url you are looking for (original post)? https://plus.google.com/u/0/115239936584020095918/posts/KPNTayJ3eNW but the fact remains, I had to go to Gregg's profile and look for his post (no link from Henri's profile)
# [17:30] <dylangluck> just a developer who loves the idea of expanding on what the WHATWG has done and giving some feedback
# [17:30] <Philip`> Also you can use deprecated features or weird quirks to indicate the history of your story world
# [17:30] <scor> in any case, this is where the conversation is happening, on hsivonen's profile: https://plus.google.com/u/0/115203359751471044302/posts/92VKitpppB4
# [17:30] <annevk> dylangluck, sounds good
# [17:31] <foolip_> Ms2ger, that depends on how well it manages to incorporate obscure references to spec discussions/wars that make me feel clever by recognizing them
# [17:31] <AryehGregor> scor, I was talking about the post on Jeni Tennison's profile.
# [17:31] <Ms2ger> Heh
# [17:31] <AryehGregor> I wound up posting a link in my share, and disabling comments.
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# [17:32] <foolip_> is it just me, or is it very difficult to get from a Google+ share to the original post?
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> It is.
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> We were just saying.
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> You have to go to the profile and scroll down until you find it.
# [17:32] <foolip_> yeah, that's what I'm doing
# [17:32] <Ms2ger> "Note: This requirement is not present in the Foo version of this specification due to a flame war in the 4th century"
# [17:32] <hsivonen> s/Craig/Gregg/
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> That's why I posted a link: https://plus.google.com/100662365103380396132/posts
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# [17:33] <annevk> the number of times I type "hg make"...
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# [17:41] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like Safari 5.1 isn't available for Leopard
# [17:41] <hsivonen> I guess that's going to slow down MathML and inline SVG adoption
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# [17:42] <AryehGregor> Safari 5.1 has MathML support? How good is it?
# [17:42] <AryehGregor> Does Chrome also have it?
# [17:42] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: based on hearsay, Chrome doesn't
# [17:42] <Rik`> hsivonen: I don't really think so, Apple users are quickly using the latest version
# [17:43] <hsivonen> Rik`: do you have Leopard vs. Snow Leopard stats?
# [17:43] <hsivonen> I assumed that some users hadn't bothered to update because of "no new features"
# [17:44] <hober> which is too bad, since SL is way better than leopard
# [17:44] <Rik`> hsivonen: I don't at the moment but I think Leopard users are quite irrelevant
# [17:44] <Rik`> maybe less than 1% of all web users
# [17:45] <Rik`> and mostly it's PPC users since Snow Leopard is not compatible
# [17:45] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportClients.htm
# [17:46] <hsivonen> Rik`: http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm suggests that the numbers for Intel Leopard are quite high relative to Intel Snow Leopard
# [17:46] <AryehGregor> If you want OS: http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm
# [17:46] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
# [17:46] <hsivonen> Rik`: also, Intel Leopard much higher than PPC Leopard
# [17:47] <AryehGregor> Leopard is at 1.78% of total OS market share, Snow Leopard is 5.04%, so Leopard is a really big chunk.
# [17:47] <Rik`> oh right
# [17:47] <AryehGregor> 10.4 is 0.31%.
# [17:47] <AryehGregor> Which is to say, apparently, Tiger.
# [17:47] <hsivonen> I wonder what the security patch situation for Leopard is now that Leopard + 2 is out
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# [17:49] <Rik`> there is no security update for Snow Leopard yet
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# [17:51] <hsivonen> Rik`: security update for what holes?
# [17:51] <Rik`> I don't know but it's usual to launch a security update for the n -1 version when you launch the n version
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# [17:52] <hsivonen> Rik`: they did release a point release of 10.6.x a bit earlier, though
# [17:52] <Rik`> oh ok, haven't seen it
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# [17:53] <hsivonen> anyway, StatCounter's stats suggest that Safari 5.0 users on Snow Leopard aren't applying the 5.1 update immediately
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# [17:54] <miketaylr> hsivonen: i just tried software update and 5.1 is available to snow leopard, it seems
# [17:54] <Rik`> hsivonen: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1222
# [17:54] <Rik`> looks like they launched Safari 5.0.6 for Leopard http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4808
# [17:56] <AryehGregor> Why is it not called Safari 6? Is there a full update of WebKit to something recentish?
# 06[17:56] * AryehGregor hopes there's a full WebKit update and they just didn't change enough UI to call it a major version bump
# [17:56] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: I think that shares are separated so that ACLs don't collide. But I agree that if you sent it to public, and other people reshare it to public, it would be niuce to collapse them.
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# [17:58] <hober> AryehGregor: http://svn.webkit.org/repository/webkit/branches/
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# [18:06] <annevk> emailed WebApps about Traversal
# [18:06] <annevk> first draft done
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# [18:07] <AryehGregor> Fun discovery: default link color in WebKit (at least Chrome) is -webkit-link, which appears to compute to rgb(0, 0, 238).
# [18:07] <AryehGregor> Not, um, blue?
# [18:07] <AryehGregor> Yay interop?
# [18:08] <AryehGregor> A.k.a. #00e, I guess.
# [18:09] <AryehGregor> This kind of thing does affect interop in some cases . . . grumble grumble.
# [18:09] <Ms2ger> Does anybody use actual blue?
# [18:10] <AryehGregor> HTML5 says to . . .
# 06[18:10] * AryehGregor tests
# [18:10] <hsivonen> foolip_: I deployed <audio muted> to validator.nu
# [18:10] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
# [18:10] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, good point, this looks like a spec bug.
# [18:10] <foolip_> hsivonen, confirmed working, thanks!
# [18:11] <AryehGregor> So Gecko and WebKit are #00e.
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> IE10PP2 is rgb(0, 102, 204), which is what? #06c. And Opera 11.50 is #00c.
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> No, it's fine, that's not visited.
# 06[18:14] * AryehGregor tests :visited, although Gecko will lie about it
# [18:14] <Philip`> (Can't you test it trivially with a screenshot and Gimp/etc's colour picker tool?)
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> Yes, if I wanted to do that much work. :)
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# [18:15] <AryehGregor> For visited, Gecko lies. Opera is #800080. IE10PP2 seems to be still reporting #06c, is it lying too?
# 06[18:15] * AryehGregor uses dev tools
# [18:15] <AryehGregor> I'd use dev tools for Firefox too, except you know, Firebug doesn't work on Aurora.
# [18:15] <AryehGregor> (or are there basic built-in DOM inspection things these days?)
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> #551A8B in Chrome, it looks like.
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# [18:17] <AryehGregor> There's an Inspect tool somewhere, but it doesn't seem to do anything very useful . . .
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# [18:18] <Philip`> Firefox's about:config says browser.visited_color = #551A8B
# [18:18] <Rik`> AryehGregor: I think Firebug 1.8 works
# [18:18] <AryehGregor> Rik`, not unless they updated it in the last few days.
# [18:18] <AryehGregor> It works with current beta, but not Aurora.
# [18:19] <AryehGregor> Ah, they did update it.
# 06[18:19] * AryehGregor tries
# [18:19] <AryehGregor> Yay, works again!
# 06[18:20] * AryehGregor makes a mental note never to upgrade Aurora again without checking Firebug compat
# [18:20] <AryehGregor> Firebug lies about visited link color too, though.
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# [18:20] <AryehGregor> So I'll rely on Philip` here.
# 06[18:20] * AryehGregor doesn't bother trying to figure out IE
# 06[18:20] * Rik` makes a mental note never to use Firebug until https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=669730 is fixed
# [18:20] <Philip`> I might be lying too, of course
# [18:21] <AryehGregor> Rik`, I don't use Firefox for anything other than testing, so it can leak all it wants.
# [18:21] <AryehGregor> Also, that's why my new laptop has 8G of RAM.
# [18:21] <Rik`> I do use Firefox so I do my debugging in other browsers
# [18:23] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13330
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> Links that are actually blue do look noticeably bright.
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# [18:53] <david_carlisle> AryehGregor: Chrome doesn't have MathML, presumably they could pick it up, as it's implemented in the webkit base
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# [19:01] <AryehGregor> :(
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# [19:11] <dglazkov|away> MathML --> splosion.
# 03[19:11] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
# [19:11] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg
# [19:11] <Ms2ger> Evening, dglazkov
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# [19:15] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: :)
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# [19:21] <annevk> used to be that dglazkov checked in in the afternoon
# [19:22] <annevk> :p
# [19:22] <dglazkov> had to run an errand this morning.
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# [19:38] <sicking> Hixie: would you mind updating the EventSource spec to add the {withCrededentials: true} syntax? So that we can avoid prefixing it
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# [19:41] <annevk> just adding it to the spec doesn't exactly make it a done deal
# [19:42] <annevk> do we know if WebKit agrees?
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# [19:45] <AryehGregor> sicking, isn't the theory that standard but experimental stuff is prefixed too? Or is that only CSS for some reason?
# [19:52] <TabAtkins> CSS has a firm policy that everyone voluntarily follows. JS is pretty loosy-goosy about it.
# [19:54] <dglazkov> JS is pretty loosy-goosy about _everything_.
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# [20:14] <AryehGregor> Wow, it's 102 degrees outside.
# [20:15] <AryehGregor> (For those of you who like sane temperature scales, that would be 312 K.)
# [20:15] <TabAtkins> Ah, thank you, I can never think in F.
# [20:15] <TabAtkins> Or C.
# [20:16] <Philip`> I prefer to think of it as 1.78 radians
# [20:16] <Ms2ger> Well played
# [20:17] <scor> AryehGregor: where is that?
# [20:17] <AryehGregor> scor, Manhattan.
# [20:18] <scor> only 4 degrees cooler up here in Boston
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# [20:54] <scor> was there ever a time where the content attribute was allowed in tags other than meta to override textContent in microdata? or has @content always been only allowed in <meta>?
# [20:55] <annevk> always
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# [20:57] <scor> annevk: thanks
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# [21:06] <Hixie> sicking: are other browsers in agreement?
# [21:09] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/07/21-minutes.html#item04 lol the task force conclusions are not in line with what i want, please do it again!
# [21:11] <Hixie> i don't even understand those minutes
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# [21:12] <annevk> armchair troublemakers
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# 06[21:24] * annevk replies to an email from November 2009
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# [21:45] <annevk> Would be pretty nifty if ij updates older specifications in this simple process manner
# [21:46] <annevk> HTML4 could use a note :)
# 06[21:48] * Ms2ger lacks context
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# [21:49] <annevk> public-webapps
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# [21:55] <annevk> where is mike?
# [21:55] <annevk> should remove DOM Traversal from http://platform.html5.org/
# [21:57] <Ms2ger> Could try...
# [21:57] <Ms2ger> Aww
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# [22:05] <annevk> Ms2ger, you mean the reply from ij?
# [22:05] <annevk> I guess I should not have gotten my hopes up
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# [22:11] <annevk> oh hey
# [22:11] <annevk> Opera invented INVALID_STATE_ERR for recursive traversal invocations
# [22:11] <annevk> and Gecko copied it
# [22:11] <annevk> you don't see that very often
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# [22:12] <annevk> thanks for the pointer sicking :)
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# [22:15] <jamesr> annevk: i thought opera invented everything
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# [22:16] <karlcow> http://elie.im/blog/security/tracking-users-that-block-cookies-with-a-http-redirect/
# [22:16] <karlcow> jamesr: this is a truism
# [22:16] <annevk> jamesr, I think that particular rhetoric typically only applies to UI stuff
# [22:17] <annevk> jamesr, assuming you are referring to the pointless debates on who did tabs / speed dial / mouse gestures / whatnot first
# [22:17] <karlcow> it applies to love, joy, tears, emotions, etc. I mean how could not feel anything at Carmen
# [22:18] <Ms2ger> Don't you know that we all use "Opera did it first" to laugh at you guys? :)
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# [22:19] <annevk> Ms2ger, heh, I didn't
# [22:19] <annevk> Ms2ger, but I can certainly see the fun in that :)
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# [23:16] <annevk> I wonder how Page Visibility went to Last Call
# [23:16] <annevk> prolly because all these new WGs have like zero oversight
# [23:18] <Ms2ger> The Process only applies to relevant WGs
# [23:18] <Yuhong> So, on https://plus.google.com/112095156983892490612/posts/EMADdvHSRbH, describe the "substantial changes" that would be needed in detail.
# 06[23:18] * Ms2ger yawns
# [23:19] <annevk> Ms2ger, curb your enthusiasm is back
# [23:19] <Yuhong> And won't the substantial changes be limited by compatibility with existing content and implementations?
# [23:20] <annevk> I searched for "substantial changes" in that link and it yielded nothing
# 06[23:20] * Ms2ger throws a PARSE_ERR at annevk
# [23:20] <annevk> Ms2ger, search for the first three words and watch it :)
# [23:20] <jamesr> i didn't know the w3 had a process to rescind a recommendation
# [23:20] <Yuhong> Sorry, look at the mailing list post linked.
# [23:21] <Ms2ger> I did! :)
# [23:21] <Ms2ger> I also know the history of boolean attributes
# [23:21] <Ms2ger> Both pieces of knowledge are equally useless
# [23:21] <Yuhong> Sorry, substantive changes .
# [23:22] <AryehGregor> Yuhong, Maciej's post starting the thread there is pretty clear about what qualifies as a substantive change.
# [23:22] <AryehGregor> It's very broad.
# [23:22] <AryehGregor> Basically, any change that anyone other than a bike-shedder has reason to care about.
# [23:22] <annevk> Ms2ger, for when your children ask you to tell them once more the story about boolean attributes
# [23:23] <Yuhong> BTW, I just recently learned the history of HTML 3.0 and Netscape too.
# [23:23] <Ms2ger> "Daddy, what's SGML"?
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# [23:23] <annevk> Ms2ger, zcorpan meanwhile tells his about SHORTTAG NET and how things were before he figured out legacy color parsing
# [23:23] <Ms2ger> Hah
# [23:24] <TabAtkins> I'm very glad I didn't have to figure out legacy color parsing myself.
# [23:24] <TabAtkins> That shit's crazy.
# [23:24] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, how about trying to figure out CSS parsing in quirks mode? :)
# [23:24] <TabAtkins> I'm gonna... I'm gonna not do that.
# [23:24] <annevk> Yuhong, you want to read the W3C Process document for a definition of that term
# [23:25] <annevk> Yuhong, if you are after "substantive changes"
# [23:28] <Ms2ger> Notes, notes, notes
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# [23:28] <Ms2ger> One for CSS2.1 too? :)
# [23:28] <TabAtkins> 2.1 is the most recent and accurate reference!
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# [23:28] <Ms2ger> Still a disaster :)
# [23:29] <TabAtkins> And we have a note on CSS2 along those lines.
# [23:29] <Ms2ger> But less of a disaster than the rest of CSS, I'll grant you that
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# [23:30] <TabAtkins> Relatively speaking, 2.1 is one of the best specs the W3C has produced. We actually have a large (though still not large enough) test suite.
# [23:31] <Yuhong> In fact, I learned that the history of CSS1 is related to the history of HTML 3.0.
# [23:31] <annevk> XSLT and XML are pretty watertight (and way simpler)
# [23:31] <Yuhong> More history: http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/exnr8/on_netscape_and_css_history_heres_the_history/
# [23:31] <annevk> CSS 2.1 has a lot of handwaving still :(
# [23:32] <TabAtkins> annevk: I said "relatively" ^_^
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# [23:38] <annevk> I wonder why you need a whole WG for something like page visiblity
# [23:38] <annevk> two new attributes on Document
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# [23:41] <Hixie> beats me
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# [23:47] <annevk> jgraham, you look sad on your G+ photo
# [23:47] <annevk> well, more disinterested, which might be accurate I suppose :p
# [23:48] <Yuhong> So what are examples of "substantive changes" that might be needed in the future?
# [23:49] <annevk> Yuhong, http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#substantive-change
# [23:50] <Yuhong> Sorry, there was no Glossary, making it hard to find.
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# [23:51] <annevk> glad you looked at least
# [23:51] <annevk> :)
# [23:52] <Ms2ger> annevk, want to tell them they need a reference to WebIDL as well?
# [23:52] <annevk> Ms2ger, can do
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# [23:53] <Yuhong> So what are examples of "substantive changes" that might be needed in the future, or the HTML5 spec quickly becomes inaccurate?
# [23:53] <Yuhong> I am looking for specific examples.
# [23:54] <Hixie> how can we know...?
# [23:54] <annevk> we might have to remove an attribute that's not implemented
# [23:54] <annevk> we might have to change an attribute because it's implemented incorrectly
# 06[23:54] * Ms2ger stays out of this
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# [23:55] <annevk> good idea
# [23:55] <annevk> if Ms2ger is still reading the logs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2011Jul/0080.html
# [23:55] <Yuhong> Candidate Recommendation is exactly the place to prove everything is implemented.
# [23:55] <Yuhong> If it is not, it will be removed.
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# [23:56] <annevk> hey man, if you already know, don't ask
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# [23:57] <Yuhong> My point is that it is an already solved problem.
# [23:58] <Yuhong> I mean, the W3C process already solves this problem.
# [23:59] <Yuhong> With Candidate Recommendation and the tests etc.
# [23:59] <annevk> yes, you have to revert to WD after a substantive change
# [23:59] <Yuhong> Yes, but why would it loop forever?
# Session Close: Sat Jul 23 00:00:00 2011

The end :)