/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jul 23 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # 03[00:00] * Joins: shetech (~shetech@12.234.36.130)
  4. # [00:01] <Yuhong> Yes, I am well aware of CSS 2.1, and how it looped several times.
  5. # [00:01] <annevk> because with a spec this size you are bound to find something
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  7. # [00:01] <annevk> CSS 2.1 would have looped way more if the WG fixed all outstanding issues
  8. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> 2.1 stopped looping because we made several things undefined.
  9. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Unrelated: This is ridiculously good - http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/supplementary/multi_comparison.html
  10. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> The "Ours" scaling algo
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  16. # [00:04] <Yuhong> Yep, I know. In contrast, CSS3 is modularized and so far it loops less I think.
  17. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Indeed, but that brings its own problems.
  18. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> The whole issue of looping is only because the W3C Process demands that specs progress as a unit.
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  20. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> WHATWG HTML has per-section annotations and it works fine.
  21. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> It would be really nice if we could get a usable subset spec that only includes things that are known to be followed more or less completely by at least two major browsers, though, or something like that.
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  24. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> Or at least leaving out the stuff that's really speculative or cutting-edge.
  25. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> (maybe leaving in the stuff that's implemented by everyone but not interoperably)
  26. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Hmm, Maciej never got back to me about innerText yet, did he?
  27. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> I'll have to poke him again.
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  30. # [00:08] <Yuhong> I think being implemented by at least two implementations interoperably is part of the W3C process already.
  31. # [00:09] <Hixie> css3 is older than css2.1 :-)
  32. # [00:09] <Hixie> so clearly it doesn't loop less :-)
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  34. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> I don't acknowledge the existince of pre-2.1 css3.
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  38. # [00:10] <Yuhong> The year-long gap in CSS3 working drafts that existed since 1999 I think is partly because there was no point in doing it when IE6 had a monopoly and did not implement much of CSS2.
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  40. # [00:11] <Yuhong> And remember that CSS2.1 did not exist when IE6 was released.
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  43. # [00:14] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: this page made we want to play Mario
  44. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> I know!
  45. # [00:15] <Hixie> Yuhong: from being in the wg, i assure you your assumptions are wrong
  46. # [00:15] <Hixie> Yuhong: it was more because we were focusing on css2.1 and had insufficient editors
  47. # [00:15] <Hixie> a problem the wg still has
  48. # [00:16] <Hixie> TabAtkins: amazing how some of those pictures scale amazingly well with their algorithm and others look really dumb
  49. # [00:16] <Hixie> TabAtkins: does seem to be almost always the best or second-best algo though
  50. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah. It looks like it does worst on the ones that had the most care given to them. Lost Vikings, frex.
  51. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Lesson: Don't make your sprites too pretty. Future higher-rez generations will appreciate your highly-contrasting colors.
  52. # [00:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah, or the icons that were meant to have hard edges, like the Setup icon which turns into a clay cartoon
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  54. # [00:18] <Hixie> kinda funny how bicubic is really just squinting for you
  55. # [00:18] <Hixie> i hadn't realised that before
  56. # [00:19] <Yuhong> That is why I say partly.
  57. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's very overtly a blur.
  58. # [00:20] <Hixie> Yuhong: it wasn't even partly. there was no relationship to IE.
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  60. # [00:20] <Hixie> hq4x seems to not actually work beyond 4x zoom?
  61. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> That would be the origin of the name, yes.
  62. # [00:21] <Hixie> aah
  63. # [00:21] <Hixie> ok
  64. # [00:21] <Hixie> seems unfair to show that one for the higher zooms then
  65. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> (There's an hq2x and 3x too.)
  66. # [00:21] <Hixie> for 4x it's better than theirs for some of them
  67. # [00:21] <Hixie> e.g. setup
  68. # [00:21] <Hixie> and control panel
  69. # [00:22] <Hixie> basically this algorithm does really well when the underlying graphic has curves, and not so well when it has straights
  70. # [00:23] <Hixie> makes sense that one algorithm wouldn't be able to distinguish the two cases, of course
  71. # [00:23] <Hixie> bbiab.
  72. # [00:24] <zewt> it looks identical to "EPX" (whatever that is), but with some kind of smoothing applied
  73. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Yeah, looks like the two make pretty similar coloring decisions.
  74. # [00:24] <zewt> and you can sort of intuitively see what EPX is doing, though i havn't squinted at it hard enough to know exactly
  75. # 03[00:24] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  76. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> It's a really easy algorithm. Wikipedia has details.
  77. # [00:26] <Yuhong> Fun fact: One of the modules dates back to a proposal from 1996: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/multi-column.html
  78. # [00:26] <Yuhong> Also see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/1996Jun/0234.html
  79. # [00:27] <Yuhong> And consider the fact it will be IE10 before that module will finally get implemented.
  80. # [00:30] <zewt> the scaling might not actually work well for animated sprites, though, since the interpolation would probably wobble around, lacking any cohesion across frames
  81. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> zewt: I wonder if I can find the algo and implement it myself.
  82. # [00:31] <zewt> it looks like it's using EPX in vertex form and just applying some standard smoothing algorithm
  83. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> zewt: I think you're right that it's identical to EPX except for the region-shaping algorithm.
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  85. # [00:33] <jamesr> there's a siggraph paper, i believe
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  89. # [00:39] <annevk> when are these hangouts coming without plugins?
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  95. # [00:42] <sephr> What's the reasoning behind limiting crypto.getRandomValues() to integers only? It introduces an extra unnecessary step when you want random floats: var nums = new Float64Array(10); crypto.getRandomValues(new Uint8Array(nums.buffer));
  96. # [00:43] <sephr> I don't see the point of having to do new Uint8Array(floats.buffer)
  97. # [00:43] <Hixie> annevk: at a minimum, browsers would have to support PeerConnection and getUserMedia() (or their equivalents in other proposals) before that can happen
  98. # [00:44] <sephr> and not to mention that it doesn't make sense to not allow crypto.getRandomValues() on an plain ArrayBuffer acting as a binary blob that you don't need indexes on
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  101. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> zewt: As for animation, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Fd-4NzB0w
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  105. # [01:07] <fishd> Hixie: i'm curious why you restricted a@download to require a user gesture
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  107. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> Me too, given that an iframe pointint to a C-D resource can be script-inserted.
  108. # [01:10] <fishd> this is reference to https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=64580#c51
  109. # [01:10] <fishd> TabAtkins: exactly
  110. # [01:11] <jamesr> sephr: floating point random numbers are really hard
  111. # [01:11] <jamesr> for one, the range isn't uniform the way developers will typically expect
  112. # [01:11] <sephr> so is randomizing the bytes not sufficiently cryptographically random?
  113. # [01:11] <jamesr> it doesn't have the distribution that people will normally expect
  114. # [01:12] <jamesr> frex random values in the range [0, 1) will be biased since the epsilon between representable values is non-uniform on that range
  115. # [01:12] <sephr> I understand that the distrobution may confuse some, but specifically excluding floats doesn't really help for people who honestly want random floats
  116. # [01:12] <sephr> ok thanks
  117. # [01:13] <jamesr> well when do you want cryptographically random floats?
  118. # [01:13] <jamesr> i don't know of any cryptographic routines that use floating point input values like this
  119. # [01:13] <sephr> I don't; I was just wondering
  120. # [01:13] <sephr> lol ok :p
  121. # [01:13] <sephr> thanks for the explanation
  122. # [01:13] <jamesr> not claiming that i know a lot of crypto stuff
  123. # [01:13] <jamesr> but i think it'll bite people who want secure numbers
  124. # [01:14] <sephr> btw, Hixie: on the whole text/html-sandboxed thing being insufficient: a "sandbox" directive was added to CSP
  125. # [01:14] <sephr> so you may or may not want to just remove the text/html-sandboxed registration
  126. # [01:14] <sephr> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/content-security-policy/raw-file/tip/csp-specification.dev.html#sandbox
  127. # [01:24] <zewt> including floats doesn't help people who honestly want random floats :)
  128. # [01:24] <jamesr> did you mean excluding?
  129. # [01:24] <zewt> no, including
  130. # [01:25] <zewt> he said excluding doesn't help; i say including doesn't help either
  131. # [01:27] <sephr> zewt: whar about plain arraybuffers btw?
  132. # [01:28] <sephr> surely there are times when you want a binary blob and you don't care about it being indexed into a uint8array
  133. # [01:28] <jamesr> you should only use the crypto API when you care about cryptographic properties of the values
  134. # [01:31] <sephr> jacobolus: think truecrypt's hidden volume impl
  135. # [01:31] <jacobolus> jamesr: ↑ ?
  136. # [01:31] <sephr> just writing a random blob, not actually using the values in a computation
  137. # [01:32] <zewt> that's using the data at an array of 8-bit ints
  138. # [01:32] <sephr> yeah but the file api doesn't take 8 bit int arrays
  139. # [01:33] <sephr> it takes arraybuffers
  140. # [01:33] <sephr> I get that getting .buffer is easy enough
  141. # [01:33] <zewt> which you can create an 8-bit int view for to create the data--the underlying algorithm is using an array of 8-bit ints
  142. # [01:34] <zewt> there's always a data type associated with data, for any algorithm
  143. # [01:34] <sephr> well most likely
  144. # [01:34] <sephr> might be a 7bit filesys though
  145. # [01:34] <sephr> even though it surely isn't
  146. # [01:35] <sephr> anyways I get you so ok end of discussion
  147. # [01:38] <zewt> that's not exactly how discussions work :)
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  160. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> heycam: How should I respond to issues in the SVG issue tracker?
  161. # [02:38] <heycam> TabAtkins, just send mail on www-svg and include the ISSUE-nnnn in the subject or body of the mail
  162. # [02:38] <heycam> subject is good, then repliers don't need to remember to reinclude it in the body
  163. # [02:38] <heycam> (so in fact I should have done that in my mail just now)
  164. # [02:39] <heycam> (anyway I put a link to the start of the stroke gradient thread in the initial text of the issue, so it doesn't matter too much of other mails in that thread don't get tagged correctly)
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  166. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> heycam: ...huh. I'm apparently not subscribed to enough of the SVG lists. I didn't get any of this thread.
  167. # [02:41] <heycam> TabAtkins, you're not on www-svg?
  168. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> Apparently not.
  169. # [02:41] <heycam> huh
  170. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> Anyway, just subscribed.
  171. # [02:42] <heycam> so from now on we're trying to do technical discussion on that list rather than public-svg-wg, so it's easier for non-WG members to contribute
  172. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> Is public-svg-wg not a public list?
  173. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> Or is it just easier to suscribe to for some reason?
  174. # [02:43] <heycam> you can read public archives of it, but non WG members can't subscribe to it
  175. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> Ah, gotcha. That's silly.
  176. # [02:43] <heycam> yeah, it's a weird half way compared to other WGs
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  193. # [03:55] <Hixie> anyone have any tests for this crazy filename* syntax the http guys are peddling?
  194. # [03:55] <Hixie> julian says everyone implements it
  195. # [03:57] <TabAtkins> Link?
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  197. # [03:57] <Hixie> whatwg e-mail
  198. # [03:57] <TabAtkins> Oh, that encoding stuff?
  199. # [03:59] <Hixie> 6266
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  201. # [04:03] <TabAtkins> What is this number supposed to refer to?
  202. # [04:04] <TabAtkins> Do you mean RFC 2231/5987?
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  222. # [05:02] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i meant RFC 6266
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  271. # [09:15] <annevk> Hixie, I think Julian made tests
  272. # [09:15] <annevk> Hixie, http://greenbytes.de/tech/tc2231/
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  290. # [11:18] <nessy> is anyone else enjoying the discussion at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13333 ? :-)
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  318. # [12:42] <doublec> that looks like a good bug to avoid reading
  319. # [12:43] <Ms2ger> annevk5, thanks
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  365. # [16:02] <Stevezau> Using html5lib i keep getting this error " File "/usr/lib/pymodules/python2.7/html5lib/inputstream.py", line 50, in seek" " assert pos < self._bufferedBytes()" "AssertionError"
  366. # [16:02] <Stevezau> it's strange as it works on ubuntu 11.04 but not 11.10
  367. # [16:03] <Stevezau> same code..
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  369. # [16:07] <Stevezau> any ideas?
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  380. # [16:52] <jgraham> Stevezau: Got some sample input?
  381. # [16:53] <jgraham> I don't have 11.04 handy so I'm not quite sure how I will track it down.
  382. # 06[16:53] * jgraham is actually trying to make some fixes to html5lib for the first time in a while
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  388. # [17:00] <smaug____> AryehGregor: ping
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  392. # [17:13] <foolip> hsivonen, I'm having trouble checking out the validator source because the w3.org DTDs are timing out, is it possible to skip those if I'm just interested in HTML5?
  393. # [17:27] <Stevezau> jgraham nevermind, i tracked it to urllib2
  394. # [17:27] <Stevezau> issue with python 2.7.2 latest release
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  396. # [17:44] <jgraham> Stevezau: OK
  397. # [17:52] <jgraham> So this sems like a spec bug, but maybe I am not thinking straight
  398. # [17:54] <jgraham> <html><table><math><mi>foo</mi>
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  400. # [17:55] <jgraham> AFAICT the foo causes the treebuilder to go into the in table text insertion mode
  401. # [17:55] <jgraham> Which buffers the character tokens
  402. # [17:55] <jgraham> But the </mi> is processed in foreign content which doesn't flush the buffer
  403. # [17:56] <jgraham> so the foo ends up outside the <mi>
  404. # [17:56] <jgraham> Did I miss something?
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  411. # [18:12] <Jack9> How do you apply a css class to a strokeRect? (not using the strokestyle, which can only be a css color,canvasgradient,canvaspattern)
  412. # [18:13] <Ms2ger> You don't
  413. # [18:15] <Jack9> is there a standard way to do animated strokeStyles other than looping through drawImage?
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  437. # [20:41] <foolip> WTF? http://whattf.org/
  438. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> Yes, WhatTF
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  475. # [23:30] <annevk> adding domintro boxes sucks
  476. # [23:34] <Hixie> yes
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  478. # [23:37] <annevk> a lot of it is just duplicate information phrased slightly differently
  479. # [23:37] <annevk> i added a few extra to DOM Core though and I guess I will try to complete it
  480. # [23:52] <abarth> Hixie: i think you enjoy trolling the RDFa folks too much
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  483. # Session Close: Sun Jul 24 00:00:00 2011

The end :)