/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 25 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  32. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> Hixie, redirects from fragments like <http://www.whatwg.org/C#the-video-element> seem to be broken.
  33. # [01:49] <Hixie> Philip`: ^ the js file you're sending me has some sort of syntax error
  34. # [01:50] <Hixie> oh it's incomplete
  35. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> I love open-source software: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JulSep/0453.html
  36. # [01:50] <Hixie> i guess i'll try regenning it
  37. # [01:51] <annevk> AryehGregor, I thought that was pretty funny
  38. # [01:52] <Hixie> i don't understand that e-mail
  39. # [01:52] <Hixie> did you link to the right line?
  40. # [01:52] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Yes, it was pointing out the recursion check.
  41. # [01:52] <TabAtkins_> (Which was written by Jonas, who was claiming they don't have one.)
  42. # [01:52] <Hixie> the NS_ENSURE_TRUE line?
  43. # [01:52] <Hixie> that doesn't get compiled in release builds
  44. # [01:53] <annevk> it certainly throws a INVALID_STATE_ERR
  45. # [01:53] <annevk> an*
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  47. # [01:53] <Hixie> oh i guess just the warning doesn't get compiled
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  49. # [01:54] <Hixie> the actual check is compiled
  50. # [01:54] <Hixie> nevermind me
  51. # [01:56] <Hixie> my god i hate sites that log me out automatically
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  53. # [01:58] <zewt> like google? heh
  54. # [01:58] <Hixie> when does google do that?
  55. # [01:58] <zewt> gmail/greader randomly logging me out drives me nuts
  56. # [01:58] <Hixie> sounds like a bug
  57. # [01:58] <zewt> seems periodic, like once a week or something
  58. # [01:58] <Hixie> you may have checked a checkbox asking for it
  59. # [01:58] <TabAtkins_> zewt: Your cookie expires eventually, but it should be longer than a week.
  60. # [01:58] <zewt> greader does it the most
  61. # [01:59] <TabAtkins_> (Like, with 2factor auth, you can make it remember for 30 days)
  62. # [01:59] <zewt> heh, for some reason now, after the google apps transition, youtube feels the need to tell me every single time i log in "this account is managed by zewt.org"
  63. # [02:00] <zewt> (yeah, i know, i set it up, thanks again youtube)
  64. # [02:00] <annevk> WebKit is going to share the HTML and XML tokenizer: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65000
  65. # [02:00] <annevk> That is kind of interesting...
  66. # [02:05] <Hixie> o_O
  67. # [02:05] <Hixie> that sounds like a world of pain...
  68. # [02:06] <Hixie> wait, it's not going to share the tokeniser
  69. # [02:06] <Hixie> it's just using the same interfaces
  70. # [02:11] <annevk> oh
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  216. # 03[15:35] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  263. # [17:27] <jgraham> So… afaict Web DOM Core is wrong about hwo createElement works
  264. # [17:28] <jgraham> In particular if I createElement an element from a script in frame A in the context of a different frame B, the element seems to get the namespace of A or null
  265. # [17:28] <jgraham> Even if the ownerDocument is the document in B
  266. # [17:29] <annevk> createElement always uses the HTML namespace
  267. # [17:30] <jgraham> Either that isn't true or I am going crazy
  268. # [17:31] <jgraham> In particular I have a script running in a SVG document that tries to createElement some elements in the parent HTML document
  269. # [17:31] <jgraham> and they don't seem to end up in the right namespace
  270. # 03[17:33] * Joins: llrcombs (~llrcombs@64.130.210.214)
  271. # [17:33] <jgraham> and doing s/createElement/createElementNS(xhtml_ns, / fixed the problem
  272. # [17:33] <jgraham> Although I had to look up the xhtml ns
  273. # [17:34] <annevk> well it's not implemented everywhere yet
  274. # [17:35] <jgraham> s/everywhere/anywhere/?
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  281. # 04[17:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: BTW did you see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20110723#l-397 ?
  282. # 06[17:52] * Philip` learns that PHP 5.3 added "goto" statements
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  284. # [17:52] <Philip`> (which incidentally happens to break old code that has a function named "goto")
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  290. # [18:09] <annevk> jgraham, could be
  291. # [18:10] <annevk> this is what we decided upon years ago
  292. # 03[18:10] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@72-254-88-61.client.stsn.net)
  293. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> Yo, I'd like to apologize for last night. I was not fair to you or your arguments, which had a lot more merit than I allowed at the time. I'm sorry that we had to part somewhat angry at each other.
  294. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> ...
  295. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> goddammit
  296. # [18:12] <annevk> someone had a fight last night
  297. # [18:12] <annevk> teehee
  298. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> I'd like to apologize to the room for two minutes ago. I was not fair to your eyes, which were a lot cuter than I allowed at the time. I'm sorry that we couldn't have met somewhere more private, whatwg room.
  299. # 06[18:13] * TabAtkins_ hugs whatwg.
  300. # 06[18:14] * jgraham assumes "Yo" is short for "Yo! Sushi"
  301. # 02[18:15] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@209.119.65.162) (Quit: chriseppstein)
  302. # 06[18:16] * jgraham realises that might have been a somewhat UK-centric reference
  303. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> Yes, yes it was.
  304. # [18:18] <Philip`> When I first saw a YO! Sushi, it looked startlingly Japanese
  305. # [18:18] <Philip`> particularly with all the walls seemingly covered in giant anime characters
  306. # 06[18:19] * Philip` guesses that was the intended effect
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  311. # [18:31] <jgraham> Were the eyes more or less cute than those of the WHATWG room?
  312. # [18:31] <jgraham> +of the anime characters
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  317. # [18:33] <jgraham> Argh
  318. # [18:33] <jgraham> Silly cache
  319. # 02[18:34] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.97.215) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  320. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> Nobody has eyes cuter than you guys. Especially you, jgraham.
  321. # [18:37] <jgraham> And nobody needs glasses more than you, TabAtkins_ :)
  322. # [18:37] <zewt> (´▽｀)
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  329. # 06[18:49] * hober feels the love in #whatwg this morning
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  345. # [19:21] <sicking> annevk: ping
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  347. # [19:22] <annevk> hey sicking
  348. # [19:22] <annevk> i'm in your timezone
  349. # [19:22] <annevk> o_O
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  351. # [19:24] <sicking> annevk: and you're up this early !?!
  352. # [19:25] <sicking> annevk: is there a reason we're forbidding doctypes from getting adopted. It's a very odd exception
  353. # 02[19:25] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  354. # [19:26] <annevk> I think it was because doctypes don't have an associated document
  355. # [19:26] <annevk> but I am happy to change that
  356. # [19:26] <annevk> I wish Acid3 had not tested DOCTYPEs so we could have dropped them on the floor
  357. # [19:26] <sicking> annevk: worst, reason, ever
  358. # [19:27] <annevk> Acid3 even has
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  361. # [19:27] <annevk> assertEquals(doctype.ownerDocument, null, "doctype's ownerDocument was wrong after creation");
  362. # [19:27] <annevk> omg
  363. # [19:27] <annevk> I hate Acid3
  364. # [19:27] <sicking> get hixie to fix it
  365. # [19:27] <sicking> if it's holding back the web platform, it is counter to its purpose
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  367. # [19:28] <annevk> so what do we want? keep doctypes but let them have an ownerdocument?
  368. # [19:29] <annevk> and let them be adopted
  369. # [19:29] <sicking> i was just wanting to let them be adopted for now
  370. # [19:29] <sicking> they do have an owner document generally
  371. # [19:30] <sicking> it's just that when they're created they don't have one
  372. # [19:30] <sicking> i'm not sure how we'd deprecated doctype nodes
  373. # [19:30] <sicking> aren't browsers inserting them in the DOM now? during normal parsing
  374. # [19:30] <annevk> yeah they are
  375. # [19:30] <annevk> so I guess that's not really feasible anymore
  376. # [19:31] <sicking> i think it'd be hard yeah
  377. # [19:31] <sicking> my concern is that removing them would break sites that do document.childNodes[1] to get the document element
  378. # [19:32] <annevk> so adoptNode for doctype would nullify its ownerDocument right?
  379. # [19:32] <sicking> no, it would do the same as for other nodes
  380. # [19:32] <annevk> okay
  381. # [19:32] <sicking> set ownerDocument to the new document
  382. # [19:33] <annevk> so then I just need to remove doctype from the adoptNode line
  383. # [19:33] <annevk> let me do that right now
  384. # [19:33] <sicking> doctypes have a owner document as soon as they are inserted in a doc
  385. # [19:35] <annevk> oh and http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-ensure-samedoc is affected as well
  386. # [19:35] <annevk> the implicit adoption
  387. # [19:37] <sicking> right
  388. # [19:37] <sicking> we've supported implicit adoption forever for doctypes, just not explicit adoption
  389. # 02[19:38] * Quits: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  390. # [19:38] <sicking> annevk: oh, and i'd be thrilled to say that doctypes always have an owner document, just like all other nodes
  391. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> Yes, please. Also allow cloning them.
  392. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> Down with magic!
  393. # [19:38] <sicking> annevk: i'll just be a bit tricky to define what that that ownerdoc is
  394. # [19:38] <annevk> getting Acid3 changed is a real pain though, Hixie?
  395. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> Has it made SVG fonts optional yet?
  396. # [19:39] <annevk> sicking, why is it harder than for an element?
  397. # 03[19:40] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  398. # [19:40] <sicking> annevk: because you don't create them from a document, but rather from a implementation
  399. # [19:40] <sicking> AryehGregor: nope
  400. # [19:41] <sicking> Acid3 is the IE6 of conformance test suites :)
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  402. # [19:41] <annevk> sicking, not funny :)
  403. # [19:42] <annevk> sicking, fixed for adoptNode()
  404. # [19:43] <sicking> yay
  405. # [19:43] <annevk> still throws for documents
  406. # [19:43] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-document-adoptnode
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  408. # [19:46] <sicking> annevk: awesome, thanks!
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  414. # [19:50] <annevk> AryehGregor, so yes
  415. # [19:50] <annevk> cloning of doctypes and documents should be allowed?
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  417. # [19:58] <annevk> per email debate I just reread that already works
  418. # [19:59] <annevk> but importNode should block documents
  419. # [19:59] <annevk> oh because a document cannot own another one
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  426. # [20:24] <annevk> notes:
  427. # [20:24] <annevk> * make deep argument optional
  428. # [20:24] <annevk> * make clone dfn concept-node-clone
  429. # [20:24] <zewt> for feature parity with the rest of the internet
  430. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> What are some examples of where people have reported bugs against a WD that are fixed in ED, or implementers have implemented something based on an obsolete WD?
  431. # [20:26] <TabAtkins_> annevk has several examples, I believe.
  432. # [20:26] <annevk> it happens often, but usually in internal bug reports
  433. # [20:29] <Hixie> wow, if ever there was an argument for amalgamting specs rather than splitting them, it has to be the graph on http://greenbytes.de/tech/tc2231/
  434. # [20:30] <annevk> so importNode and cloneNode are pretty much identical
  435. # [20:30] <annevk> but one throws for document in implementations and the other doesn't
  436. # [20:30] <annevk> weird
  437. # [20:37] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: I suspect it would be slightly less horrible if they had real names, not RFC numbers.
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  439. # [20:37] <Hixie> the whole http layer should just be one spec
  440. # [20:37] <Hixie> having all this stuff split all over the place is ludicrous
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  442. # [20:38] <annevk> HTTP itself is becoming 8 or so specs
  443. # [20:38] <zewt> rfcs having no xrefs at all doesn't help
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  445. # [20:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: no, I did not see that. (I was away in the countryside as a wedding guest over the weekend and missed just about everything that went on online)
  446. # [20:38] <annevk> I don't really want to fork HTTP though
  447. # [20:38] <annevk> too much effort
  448. # [20:39] <TabAtkins_> zewt: Indeed. RFCs in general are nearly the worst possible format to have split specs among.
  449. # [20:39] <zewt> seems like just publishing rfcs in a format other than fixed-width 80-column with hard page breaks as if people still print on 66-line printers is a hard enough battle
  450. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> They have HTML versions, which are significantly less horrible.
  451. # [20:39] <zewt> (and as if anyone actually prints specs)
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  453. # 06[20:40] * Philip` wonders if anyone has printed HTML5 recently
  454. # [20:40] <zewt> one copy, one rainforest
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  459. # [20:44] <hsivonen> Philip`: based on tweets, it looked like Jirka printed it recently
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  461. # [20:44] <hsivonen> I probably should have started a "why RDFa sucks" wiki page 3 years ago so that I wouldn't need to write the same stuff over and over again
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  465. # [20:55] <annevk> never too late
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  467. # [21:01] <annevk> applied notes to draft
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  475. # [21:16] <kangax> Does anyone remember offhand if form's submit event should fire when form fails validation? I see Opera 11.50 fires it; FF, Chrome don't.
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  479. # [21:17] <annevk> looks like a bug in Opera per the specification
  480. # [21:18] <annevk> are you submitting it manually?
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  483. # [21:18] <annevk> because if you submit it through submit() Opera is correct
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  485. # [21:18] <sicking> annevk: do you know if opera is doing the HTML5 undomanager?
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  489. # [21:19] <annevk> i know we don't
  490. # [21:19] <jgraham> sicking: So far we looked at the spec and got confused I think
  491. # [21:19] <sicking> jgraham: cool, i have an alternative proposal that i'm pitching
  492. # [21:20] <sicking> but i don't want to start implementing if other browsers have already set down the HTML5 path
  493. # [21:20] <smaug____> annevk: why you made /deep/ optional?
  494. # [21:20] <jgraham> sicking: Sounds good
  495. # [21:20] <Hixie> sicking: there's been several alternative proposals, i hope we can find something to replace it
  496. # [21:20] <sicking> Hixie: do you know if anyone's implemented what's in the spec?
  497. # [21:21] <sicking> Hixie: if people already have, then it'll be a lot harder to do something else
  498. # [21:21] <jgraham> Hixie: Can you pull it from the spec if it is unimplemented and should not be implemented?
  499. # [21:21] <Hixie> sicking: to my knowledge no. I removed it from the w3c copy to try to prevent it from getting implemented.
  500. # [21:21] <kangax> annevk: no, submitting by pressing submit button
  501. # [21:21] <Hixie> jgraham: well it's not that it shouldn't be implemented, it should get implementation feedback. which it is getting. :-)
  502. # [21:22] <sicking> Hixie: is "we don't like it and don't think it should be implemented" enough feedback :)
  503. # [21:22] <Hixie> sicking: no :-)
  504. # [21:22] <Hixie> sicking: we need _something_
  505. # [21:22] <sicking> Hixie: second proposal in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=617532#c12
  506. # [21:22] <Hixie> sicking: (though it's not urgent, certainly)
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  508. # [21:22] <kangax> annevk: oh well. i guess will work around for now with `checkValidity` in submit handler.
  509. # [21:23] <annevk> sicking, there's also http://rniwa.com/editing/undomanager.html and http://rniwa.com/editing/undomanager-usecases.html
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  511. # [21:23] <Hixie> sicking: what anne said
  512. # [21:23] <Hixie> sicking: please coordinate with other browser vendors on what proposal to implement :-) (feel free to use the whatwg list for this purpose)
  513. # [21:24] <annevk> smaug____, it's optional in some implementations already
  514. # [21:24] <annevk> smaug____, and it makes sense in the same way as making the last argument of addEventListener optional makes sense, I think
  515. # [21:24] <sicking> smaug____: it seems like an argument that would be useful to make optional
  516. # [21:24] <smaug____> it is just not backwards compatible change
  517. # [21:25] <smaug____> it should be optional, but if sites start to rely on it being optional...
  518. # [21:26] <annevk> if sites rely on <input type=datetime> people need to update their browsers too
  519. # [21:26] <annevk> sort of how things work...
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  521. # [21:27] <smaug____> calling importNode without the last parameter will throw in some browsers
  522. # [21:27] <annevk> sure
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  524. # [21:27] <smaug____> ok, so we don't care about backwards compatibility
  525. # [21:27] <annevk> not with browsers
  526. # [21:27] <annevk> we care about compatibility with content
  527. # [21:28] <smaug____> that is new
  528. # [21:28] <annevk> not really
  529. # [21:28] <smaug____> "not with browsers"
  530. # [21:28] <smaug____> but I'm all for it
  531. # [21:28] <smaug____> we can simplify for example command handling significantly
  532. # [21:29] <annevk> sounds good to me :)
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  536. # [21:34] <smaug____> command and menu handling... no need to care about the strange <select> and <input> handling in menu
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  568. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> The proposals to remove various link relations are harmless, right?
  569. # 03[22:45] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@72-254-87-122.client.stsn.net)
  570. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> Another question: if a proposal has security issues, who are some good people to CC, like maybe from Mozilla or Opera? I'm CCing abarth on this, but if I could get input from another implementer or two that would be nice.
  571. # [22:45] <abarth> AryehGregor: there are a bunch of moz folks who might be good to CC
  572. # [22:45] <abarth> maybe starting with bz or sid stamm might be good
  573. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> Okay.
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  577. # [22:53] <abarth> AryehGregor: some variation of that idea could work
  578. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Like what?
  579. # [22:54] <abarth> AryehGregor: if you think of it like a popup window that's constrained to the parent page's extent
  580. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> But whose position and focus you can't control?
  581. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> Does that actually satisfy the use-cases (not that I'm totally clear on what those are)?
  582. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> I guess the use-case is something like "let me embed stuff without the site being able to break out and take away my revenue from the banner ad I'm plastering on top of other people's sites".
  583. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> I mean, okay, it could be more innocuous, like Google Translate.
  584. # [22:55] <abarth> there are a couple interesting use cases
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  586. # [22:55] <abarth> one tricky one is something like facebook connect
  587. # [22:56] <abarth> let's assume you're already signed into facebook, so you don't need to type your password
  588. # [22:56] <abarth> but you need to approve the connection between the site and facebook
  589. # [22:56] <abarth> facebook wants that UI to be displayed "on top" so that it can't be clickjacked
  590. # [22:56] <abarth> today, they'd need to use a popup window to get that sort of display
  591. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> What's wrong with that?
  592. # [22:56] <abarth> but they don't because popup windows are ugly, hard to use, and have trouble with popup blockers
  593. # [22:57] <abarth> they want the drawing model of a popup
  594. # [22:57] <abarth> but the interaction model of a lightbox
  595. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> Hmm, okay.
  596. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> Seems reasonable.
  597. # [22:57] <abarth> the harder case is when you need to type your facebook password
  598. # [22:57] <abarth> because you're not authenticated to facebook yet
  599. # [22:58] <abarth> then you need an address bar to tell you which site you're interacting with
  600. # [22:58] <abarth> which isn't possible using this mechanism
  601. # [22:58] <karlcow> In which spec atob has been moved?
  602. # [22:59] <annevk> karlcow, HTML, no?
  603. # [22:59] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/C#windowbase64
  604. # [23:01] <karlcow> hmmm
  605. # [23:01] <karlcow> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/
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  607. # [23:02] <gsnedders> karlcow: There was an objection to it being included as it was a new feature after LC
  608. # [23:03] <gsnedders> (Despite it having been implemented for almost two decades…)
  609. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> It was added before LC.
  610. # [23:03] <karlcow> in fact I was looking where the data uris were defined. I wanted to know if there is a requirement for base64 on the specification.
  611. # [23:04] <karlcow> but could not find it
  612. # [23:04] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Before? Then my memory must be wrong… Why was it removed then?
  613. # 06[23:04] * gsnedders has found the commit now, but it gives no justification
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  615. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> Because Sam filed a bug, so Hixie removed it, then I complained, the chairs clarified they didn't technically ask him to remove it, and Hixie re-added it.
  616. # [23:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: sharing the HTML tokenizer with the XML code path is not completely nuts. I've been pondering something similar.
  617. # [23:05] <gsnedders> karlcow: base64 for data URIs appears to be completely undefined.
  618. # [23:05] <Hixie> anyone know anything about RFC 4733? I'm trying to work out if you need a separate audio channel or if it can share the audio channel somehow but i'm not able to work it out
  619. # [23:05] <Hixie> hsivonen: really? seems like a world of pain
  620. # [23:05] <karlcow> gsnedders: ah interesting
  621. # [23:05] <karlcow> I was testing a few things about it
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  623. # [23:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: the HTML tokenizer is *very* close to what one would want a non-recursive XML tokenizer to look like
  624. # [23:06] <karlcow> gsnedders: http://www.la-grange.net/2011/07/25/data-uri-base-test
  625. # [23:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: except the XML tokenizer needs to be able to deal with the internal subset to be compliant
  626. # [23:06] <hsivonen> hooray for the internal subset
  627. # [23:06] <Hixie> half the rfc seems to say that there's just one audio channel that's the same as the main one, and the other half seems to suggest you need to negotiate a telephone-events channels separately. *confused*
  628. # [23:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'd be worried about edge cases like NULLs and so on, but if you say so
  629. # [23:07] <abarth> hsivonen: you're aware that we're starting down that path in webkit, right?
  630. # [23:07] <Hixie> abarth: that's why we're discussing it
  631. # [23:07] <hsivonen> abarth: I just saw a mention in the IRC log
  632. # [23:07] <abarth> its somewhat experimental work
  633. # [23:08] <annevk> we have our own HTML and XML parser but have not done that
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  635. # [23:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: I already added PI tokenization in order to be able to use the HTML tokenizer for syntax highlighting XML for View Source
  636. # [23:08] <annevk> maybe now WebKit implements their own XML parser they can implement XML5!
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  638. # [23:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: it mishighlights the internal subset, though
  639. # [23:08] <hober> annevk: :)
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  641. # [23:09] <othermaciej> our XML parser isn't yet ready to handle XML1
  642. # [23:09] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, if the HTML tokenizer is reused, XML5 is very close
  643. # [23:09] <annevk> XML5 is easier :)
  644. # [23:10] <annevk> no need to check Name productions and such
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  646. # [23:11] <othermaciej> our new XML tokenizer is similar to our HTML5 tokenizer and reuses some code, but it's not the same piece of code
  647. # [23:12] <abarth> its mostly the data structures / architecture that's shared
  648. # [23:12] <abarth> its going to have its own state machine, for example
  649. # [23:13] <Hixie> that makes more sense to me
  650. # [23:13] <hsivonen> I've been thinking of forking the tokenizer slightly for XML
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  652. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, have you remembered about providing innerText feedback? I've had feedback from Microsoft, Mozilla, and Opera since July 14, and am just waiting for WebKit.
  653. # [23:13] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: can you ping hober about it?
  654. # [23:13] <hsivonen> the main need to fork, AFAICT, is to perform qname splitting on colon in the tokenizer for efficiency
  655. # [23:13] <hsivonen> but on the HTML side, you don't want the tokenizer to do that
  656. # [23:13] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I think the short version is that we won't remove it but I dunno our relative feelings about the other alternatives
  657. # [23:14] <hsivonen> but the states could be shared
  658. # [23:14] <hsivonen> some states like the script stuff would be unused on the XML side
  659. # [23:15] <hsivonen> while PI and internal subset states are needed on top of the HTML states
  660. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, okay.
  661. # 02[23:17] * Quits: pdr (~pdr@nat/google/x-alilzwpjclwitcvf) (Quit: pdr)
  662. # [23:17] <hober> AryehGregor: consider me pinged :)
  663. # 02[23:18] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
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  665. # 06[23:23] * jgraham occasionally hears complaints that the XML parser in Opera is lighting fast but it never appears in benchmarks
  666. # [23:23] <jgraham> s/it/XML parsing/
  667. # [23:23] <jgraham> So I guess I ought to be promoting XML on the web :)
  668. # 02[23:23] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  669. # 06[23:24] * jgraham hasn't actually tested this though
  670. # 02[23:27] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  671. # [23:27] <shepazu> AryehGregor: no, but in SVG 2, I expect SVG fonts will be optional
  672. # 03[23:29] * Joins: uf0 (Noahlias@2001:4d88:ffff:ffff:2:b320:d90a:b)
  673. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> jgraham, make an XHR microbenchmark that involves downloading a gigantic XML file and then retrieving one trivial piece of data from it.
  674. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> Where the download is cached.
  675. # [23:29] <gsnedders> From the end of the document.
  676. # [23:32] <jgraham> AryehGregor: And give it a catchy name like "MoonArachnid" and tell people it represents browser performance :)
  677. # [23:35] <jamesr> XML parsing should matter for parsing pages served up as XML/XHTML
  678. # [23:35] <jgraham> All three of them
  679. # 02[23:35] * Quits: jonatasnona (~jonatas@lba.inpa.gov.br) (Quit: Saindo)
  680. # [23:35] <jamesr> guess the lesson is "don't optimize codepaths that nobody uses", then :D
  681. # 03[23:36] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  682. # [23:36] <gsnedders> jamesr: Until you have a customer who wants a [insane number here] MB SVG file to load quickly on something like a 200 MHz MIPS device, and will pay you for it. :P
  683. # [23:37] <jamesr> heh, true
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  693. # Session Close: Tue Jul 26 00:00:00 2011

The end :)