/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-09 / end

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  84. # [05:31] <Hixie> fantastic. i have a pile of code a mile high and it finds one obscure canvas performance bug in webkit and one obscure canvas clearRect(?) bug in gecko.
  85. # [05:31] <Hixie> and i basically have no way to make minimised test cases for them.
  86. # [05:31] <Hixie> sigh.
  87. # [05:32] <shetech> gotta love obscure finds.
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  105. # [06:53] <Hixie> nice. webkit has a huge slowdown bug with clip() _and_ doesn't support the last argument to fillText().
  106. # [06:54] <Hixie> so basically there's no easy way to clip user-provided text in webkit
  107. # [06:54] <Hixie> meanwhile, gecko has some crazy bug with clearRect() where it's not actually clearing the whole rect, unless i first call fillRect() on the whole canvas, then it works fine...
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  116. # [07:43] <Hixie> i'm all for experimental implementations of css features getting prefixes
  117. # [07:43] <Hixie> but when EVERYONE implements the feature, can we move on already?
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  120. # [07:43] <Hixie> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/-moz-linear-gradient#Cross-browser_gradients is just ridiculous.
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  122. # [07:44] <zewt> on the other hand, everyone's probably afraid of being That Guy that releases something unprefixed and ends up preventing some fix or another...
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  126. # [08:10] <Hixie> zewt: imho, the experimental prefixes should only be used with experimental features, not specced things.
  127. # [08:10] <Hixie> zewt: the problem is the csswg iterate for far too long instead of freezing fast like we do with the html spec
  128. # [08:11] <Hixie> they probably end up with more well-thought-out APIs eventually
  129. # [08:11] <Hixie> but in the meantime, we have to suffer through years of silliness :-)
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  131. # [08:12] <Hixie> in other news, webkit has much prettier 'inset' and 'outset' border colours than firefox and opera
  132. # [08:12] <zewt> well, i've seen plenty of complaining on the lists about releasing APIs unprefixed too soon
  133. # [08:14] <zewt> with the way specs are developed these days, it might be worth clarifying somehow when the editor considers a spec stable enough for unprefixed implementations
  134. # [08:14] <zewt> seems like that's very fuzzy currently
  135. # [08:15] <zewt> the websocket thread a week ago comes to mind
  136. # [08:15] <Hixie> websocket had the worst of both worlds
  137. # [08:15] <Hixie> it didn't have prefixes, _and_ it wasn't fast-freeze
  138. # [08:15] <Hixie> the ietf really screwed that one over
  139. # [08:16] <zewt> i remember grumbling about blobs during the blob.slice thread, though to me the blob api seemed stable enough by then that it's hard to blame people for not prefixing it
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  146. # [09:17] <janv_> hixie: I think textContent should be changed to text in "4.11.5.4 Using the option element to define a command"
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  192. # [12:59] <jgraham> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1098 <-- anyone want to explain the behaviour of that in Gecko/WebKit to me?
  193. # [13:01] <zcorpan> jgraham: the "2" script is async?
  194. # [13:02] <jgraham> Hmm was this the big thread a while ago?
  195. # [13:03] * jgraham concludes that hsivonen should not be allowed to take vacation :)
  196. # [13:03] <zcorpan> the thread with LABjs?
  197. # [13:04] <jgraham> Yeah
  198. # [13:05] <zcorpan> i think gecko had the same behavior for this case before that thread, that appendChilded scripts with src are async
  199. # [13:05] <jgraham> I thought it was the other way around, that WebKit had this behaviour first and gecko copied it. But maybe I am wrong
  200. # [13:05] <zcorpan> could be
  201. # [13:06] <jgraham> Either way it doesn't seem to match the spec afaict
  202. # [13:06] <jgraham> But I could easilly be missing something
  203. # [13:07] <jgraham> Hmm, maybe the force-async flag is relevant
  204. # [13:09] <Ms2ger> Yes, it would be
  205. # [13:13] <jgraham> So it would fall into the 5th clause of step 15 of the "prepare a script" algorithm. It's not really clear to me why there would be a big difference between the 4th and 5th clauses here though
  206. # [13:15] <jgraham> (the difference seems to be that the 4th clause ensures the relative order of appendChild inserted scripts, but the 5th does not)
  207. # [13:15] <jgraham> +external
  208. # [13:16] <Ms2ger> That's what @async means, no
  209. # [13:16] <Ms2ger> ?
  210. # [13:17] <zcorpan> it wouldn't make any difference for this case since there's only one appendChilded script, right?
  211. # [13:17] <jgraham> Right. But if one didn't have force-async set in this case, you might expect the appendChilded script to execute before the following parser-inserted script
  212. # [13:18] <Ms2ger> Expect based on what?
  213. # [13:18] <Ms2ger> Locig? See the topic :)
  214. # [13:18] <Ms2ger> Locig, really?
  215. # [13:19] * Ms2ger blames his keyboard
  216. # [13:19] <jgraham> Expect based on the idea that people want a way to control the order of script execution
  217. # [13:20] <matjas> .async = false
  218. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> And not block the parser
  219. # [13:20] <jgraham> Well you can have one or the other
  220. # [13:21] <jgraham> Setting .async to false doesn't seem to have an effect
  221. # [13:21] <jgraham> Similarly clearing the force-async flag doesn't seem to have an effect in this case
  222. # [13:21] <jgraham> (it appears that setting and unsetting the async content attribute will do that)
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  231. # [14:14] <matjas> jgraham: IIRC setting .async = false on a dynamically inserted script makes sure that the source order is respected as far as dynamically inserted scripts go
  232. # [14:15] <jgraham> matjas: Possibly. If that is the case I am missing the spec text that ensures it
  233. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> But not relative to parser-inserted scripts
  234. # [14:16] <matjas> Ms2ger: exactly
  235. # [14:16] <matjas> jgraham: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/script-execution/
  236. # [14:17] <jgraham> Oh, yeah, sorry I misread you
  237. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> cool to see janv_ working on the HTML5 context-menu feature
  238. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/561821863607
  239. # [14:22] <jgraham> matjas: Yeah, I have read that blog entry before, but this kind of thing is easy to not fully understand until you actually need to solve a problem
  240. # [14:22] <jgraham> At least for me
  241. # [14:22] <matjas> MikeSmith: what’s with the `data://www.mozilla.org/favicon.ico`?
  242. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> hmm
  243. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> matjas: no idea
  244. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> Just something invalid to test error handling?
  245. # [14:25] <matjas> Ms2ger: ah, duh
  246. # [14:31] * matjas would’ve used data:lolwut
  247. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> heh
  248. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> lolwut
  249. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> so I wonder how well Google Swiffy works
  250. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> http://swiffy.googlelabs.com/faq.html says "Swiffy supports most of the features in Flash 5" but does that mean you can take most Flash 5 content and generate usable output from it?
  251. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> being able to author with Flash dev tools and generate Web-platform output is a pretty powerful thing, if it actually works
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  254. # [14:37] <robman> wouldn't being able to author using the Web-platform to generate Web-platform be even betterer MikeSmith? 8)
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  256. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> robman: no, not necessarily
  257. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> not at all, really
  258. # [14:39] <robman> really...i hate having to run windows/macosx to run adobe tools
  259. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> I hate using windows/macosx to do anything
  260. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> linux too
  261. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> OSes suck
  262. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> all of them
  263. # [14:40] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Presumably the flash tools will produce output that is no better than flash in many ways
  264. # [14:40] <robman> 8)
  265. # [14:40] <robman> MikeSmith - well you got me there
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  268. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> jgraham: well, the point is the tools make things much easier for devs, they are very good tools in terms of the usability, user-friendliness, ease-of-use or however you want to term it
  269. # [14:42] <jgraham> Having nice tools is of course good
  270. # [14:42] <jgraham> But I imagine it will be easy to produce content that is inaccessible to search engines, screenreaders, etc. and hard to do the reverse
  271. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> in comparison as far as similar tools for producing Web-platform output natively, we are at the level of caveman rubbing sticks together to make fire
  272. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, point taken
  273. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> the platform is full of tradeoffs
  274. # [14:43] * robman like fire
  275. # [14:43] * robman grunts
  276. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> heh
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  278. # [14:44] * MikeSmith is reminded of the "Fire bad!" scene in Young Frankenstein
  279. # [14:44] <robman> 8)
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  281. # [14:45] * JanV is now known as janv_
  282. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your platform frightens and confuses me"
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  316. # [17:15] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: you read www-archive?
  317. # [17:15] <Ms2ger> I skim it sometimes
  318. # [17:15] <zcorpan> i saw an email from björn with tests for XMLSerializer/DOMParser
  319. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> Saw those
  320. # [17:18] <Ms2ger> Those are somewhere near the bottom of my todo list
  321. # [17:18] <zcorpan> k
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  334. # [17:58] <cryptopsy> is there a printable reference for html5 on whatwg.org ?
  335. # [17:58] * Quits: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: simplicity-)
  336. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> cryptopsy, whatwg.org/html has a link hidden in the header, IIRC
  337. # [18:00] <cryptopsy> news, specs, demo, charter ...
  338. # [18:01] <Ms2ger> Did you miss the /html?
  339. # [18:02] <Ms2ger> PDF print versions:
  340. # [18:02] <Ms2ger> A4: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/html-a4.pdf
  341. # [18:02] <Ms2ger> Letter: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/html-letter.pdf
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  343. # [18:03] <cryptopsy> how did you find that?
  344. # [18:04] <Philip`> By going to http://whatwg.org/html then reading it, I expect :-)
  345. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> And knowing where it was
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  347. # [18:04] <Philip`> I suppose that helps too
  348. # [18:07] <jgraham> cryptopsy: Basically there are three stages: 1) Become a Hixie fanboi and hang on his every edit b) Get asked question about the spec c) Use knowledge gained from a) to answer b) and so impress girls/boys (depending on preference)
  349. # [18:07] <cryptopsy> i looked at the header for whatwg.org
  350. # [18:08] <cryptopsy> jgraham: i'm new to webdev, don't the html people publish a reference or spec for people to base on?
  351. # [18:08] <cryptopsy> thanks
  352. # [18:08] <cryptopsy> Ms2ger: ^
  353. # [18:08] <jgraham> cryptopsy: Base what on?
  354. # [18:09] <Ms2ger> whatwg.org/html
  355. # [18:09] <cryptopsy> some sort of document that lists all the possible tags and their usage, like how LaTeX has?
  356. # [18:09] <jgraham> The spec is big and complex and user unfriendly because browsers are big and complex and their codebases are unfriendly
  357. # [18:09] <cryptopsy> jgraham: where is this spec? i need those additional details
  358. # [18:09] <zewt> friendly enough to me
  359. # [18:09] <cryptopsy> zewt: now you're just teasing me ..
  360. # [18:09] <zewt> perhaps in part due to years of reading specs from ietf and friends
  361. # [18:09] <jgraham> And the spec is designed to allow different big unfriendly browsers to get on without having an all out war and destroying all the little people
  362. # [18:10] <jgraham> cryptopsy: But for authors all the complexity isn't usually needed
  363. # [18:10] <zewt> jgraham: depends heavily on what part of the system you're looking at, though
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  365. # [18:10] <zewt> some parts are easier to understand clearly from the spec than other docs
  366. # [18:10] <jgraham> There is a stylesheet you can apply that will remove implementation requirments from the spec
  367. # [18:11] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  368. # [18:11] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  369. # [18:11] <jgraham> Or you can look at http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/
  370. # [18:11] <zewt> in one limited slice of the planet, i suppose
  371. # [18:12] <cryptopsy> jgraham: true
  372. # [18:12] <jgraham> zewt: "i'm new to webdev" does suggest that the finer points of how to schedule scripts might be a few orders of magnitude too complex at this stage
  373. # [18:13] <cryptopsy> not new to browsers and encoding though
  374. # [18:13] <zewt> someone new to web development probably wants any 101 documentation and some code to squint at, anyway
  375. # [18:13] <cryptopsy> im not using this to make a blog or post pictures of cats and my 95 year old grandmother
  376. # [18:13] <zewt> poor cats/grandmothers
  377. # [18:14] <cryptopsy> so where's this super detailed doc at?
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  379. # [18:15] <zewt> i'm not sure we know what you're asking for
  380. # [18:16] <zewt> if you want a list of tags, jgraham's link gives that
  381. # [18:19] <zewt> the actual spec for html elements is at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/#auto-toc-4
  382. # [18:21] <zewt> the stuff in there is really not all that scary, IMO
  383. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> zewt, that section does include many of the finer points of script timing ;)
  384. # [18:22] <zewt> as with any detailed documentation, you do have to recognize when to skip a section you don't care about :)
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  399. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> telnet towel.blinkenlights.nl
  400. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> do it now
  401. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> NOW
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  415. # [19:45] <hober> classic
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  448. # [21:20] <Hixie> janv_: agreed; can you file a bug or send e-mail? (filing a bug is really easy; just use the little text field in the bottom right of the spec)
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  456. # [21:35] <jarek> Hi
  457. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> Evening
  458. # [21:36] <jarek> Let's say there is an iframe that is 1000px wide and that was scaled down with CSS3 transforms by half with '-webkit-transform: scale(0.5)'
  459. # [21:36] <jarek> should the media queries inside the iframe assume that its width is 1000px or 500px?
  460. # [21:37] <jarek> on Safari they assume that the width is 500px, on Chrome they assume 500px
  461. # [21:37] <jarek> no, I mean the opposite
  462. # [21:38] <jarek> On Chrome scalling an iframe does not change the behavior of media queries
  463. # [21:38] <jarek> is this a bug?
  464. # [21:39] <jarek> s/ on Safari they assume that the width is 500px, on Chrome they assume 500px/ on Safari they assume that the width is 500px, on Chrome they assume 1000px
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  466. # [21:40] <espadrine> The spec states that in a <script> with a src="", the content of <script>...</script> can only be comments.
  467. # [21:40] <espadrine> Is this implemented in major browsers?
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  469. # [21:40] <Philip`> espadrine: That is purely an authoring conformance requirement, it doesn't affect browsers
  470. # [21:41] * Quits: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  471. # [21:41] <Philip`> (Browsers don't run the content of the script element at all, regardless of what's in there, if it has a src attribute)
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  473. # [21:42] <espadrine> Philip`: ok. Makes sense.
  474. # [21:42] <Philip`> (The requirement is there as a way of warning authors when they think they've written script code that will get executed but won't)
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  476. # [21:42] <espadrine> Do you still get it through script.text though?
  477. # [21:42] <Philip`> (without making loads of existing pages that put comments inside scripts non-conforming)
  478. # [21:42] <Ms2ger> Yep
  479. # [21:43] <smaug____> hmm, probably too late to change message channels :(
  480. # [21:44] <espadrine> ok
  481. # [21:44] <smaug____> though, they are not yet implemented everywhere, so web doesn't really depend on them
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  504. # [22:14] <zcorpan> smaug____: what would you want to change with message channels?
  505. # [22:16] <smaug____> still reviewing all the stuff, but I think I'd like to remove MessageChannel :)
  506. # [22:17] <smaug____> I guess it would be quite hard to convince others to do that.
  507. # [22:18] <zcorpan> why remove?
  508. # [22:18] <smaug____> there is no real use for it
  509. # [22:20] <zcorpan> hmm
  510. # [22:20] <smaug____> I'd rather do something like var newPort = otherWindow.createPort("portName"); newPort.postMessage("foobardata");
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  514. # [22:26] <smaug____> the whole port transfer is quite awkward
  515. # [22:26] <zcorpan> yeah i must say i get confused by the ports thingies
  516. # [22:27] <zcorpan> but i don't know what a better api would be
  517. # [22:27] <zcorpan> i look forward to your conclusions and proposals
  518. # [22:27] <smaug____> well, just create a new port and the other end could get "connect" event which had .port as a property
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  522. # [22:39] <smaug____> Hixie: ping
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  529. # [23:02] <Hixie> smaug____: pong
  530. # [23:03] <smaug____> Hixie: what is the use case for MessageChannel?
  531. # [23:03] * Joins: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  532. # [23:03] <smaug____> why not just create ports on both sides
  533. # [23:03] <Hixie> both sides of what?
  534. # [23:03] <Hixie> the use case is the capabilities model. bascially the ability to send someone an API endpoint.
  535. # [23:03] <smaug____> but why?
  536. # [23:04] <Hixie> why what?
  537. # [23:04] <smaug____> why you need the ability to send API endpoint
  538. # [23:04] <smaug____> why couldn't you just create end point on both sides
  539. # [23:04] <Hixie> both sides of what??
  540. # [23:04] <smaug____> say, you have two windows...
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  542. # [23:05] <smaug____> var port = otherWindow.createPort("name-of-the-port"); // this would cause "connect" event in the otherWindow
  543. # [23:05] <smaug____> similar could work with workers
  544. # [23:05] <Hixie> you don't know how you've got on the other end, that's the whole point
  545. # [23:05] <Hixie> say you are providing an API to, I dunno, add someone to a contact list
  546. # [23:06] <Hixie> say you're a webmail app
  547. # [23:06] <Hixie> and you have a contact list
  548. # [23:06] <Hixie> and the contact list has an API, and one of the operations is "add someone to the contact list"
  549. # [23:06] <smaug____> and?
  550. # [23:06] <Hixie> if another part of the app wants to add someone to the contact list, they could get the local contacts API object, and then ask it to add to the contac tlist
  551. # [23:07] <Hixie> but what if the contact list wants to be implemented in another thread?
  552. # [23:07] <Hixie> now the contact API has to proxy everything though
  553. # [23:07] <Hixie> what if it's in another domain? now you have to proxy through to an iframe and then from there to the worker, etc
  554. # [23:08] <Hixie> now say that the contact list wants to grant the original user of this API the right to delete the user they added, but no other
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  556. # [23:08] <Hixie> how would you do it?
  557. # [23:08] <Hixie> with message channels, you can do all this trivially.
  558. # [23:08] <Hixie> there's no need to proxy anything -- the messages just end up at the right end point
  559. # [23:08] <smaug____> ah, you want to move the port first via window level postMessage and then post it to a worker?
  560. # [23:09] <Hixie> there's no need to worry about permissions, you just give back a port and then whoever has that port can just delete that one contact.
  561. # [23:09] <Hixie> etc.
  562. # [23:09] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  563. # [23:09] <Hixie> for example, yeah
  564. # [23:09] <Hixie> this is just a specific example of the capabilities programming model
  565. # [23:09] <Hixie> it's like functional programming, it's just a style
  566. # [23:09] <Hixie> i mean it's like saying "what's the use case for functions being first-class objects"
  567. # [23:09] <Hixie> or "what's the use case for object-orientated programming"
  568. # [23:10] <smaug____> it is just quite awkward
  569. # [23:10] <Hixie> it's just another tool
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  571. # [23:11] <Hixie> (a very powerful one, much like oop and lambdas)
  572. # [23:11] <Hixie> how is it awkward?
  573. # [23:11] <smaug____> when for common cases creating ports could be enough
  574. # [23:11] <smaug____> no need to transfer anything
  575. # [23:11] <Hixie> ?
  576. # [23:11] <smaug____> but ok, what you explained is something which isn't clear when reading the drafts
  577. # [23:12] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.189)
  578. # [23:12] <Hixie> yeah the drafts assume you know this programming style and that you'll recognise it :-)
  579. # [23:12] <Hixie> i should probably have an intro section that explains it or something
  580. # [23:12] <Hixie> but i'm not good at explaining it
  581. # [23:12] <smaug____> Also, "objects listed in transfer have already been transfered once before, then throw a DATA_CLONE_ERR exception and abort these steps" is easy to misread
  582. # [23:13] <smaug____> since I wasn't sure whether one can re-transfer a port
  583. # [23:13] <Hixie> that refers to the objects, not the underlying port, but yeah, i see what you mean
  584. # [23:14] <smaug____> I still don't see the need to MessageChannel
  585. # [23:14] <smaug____> for
  586. # [23:14] * Joins: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  587. # [23:14] <smaug____> If one could create ports using createPort or such
  588. # [23:14] <Hixie> createPort === MessageChannel
  589. # [23:14] <smaug____> very much so
  590. # [23:14] <Hixie> MessageChannel is nothing but a port constructor
  591. # [23:15] <smaug____> and a bit strange one
  592. # [23:15] <smaug____> since I the idea is that the other port is sent to somewhere
  593. # [23:15] <Hixie> are you familiar with unix socket programming?
  594. # [23:15] <smaug____> yes
  595. # [23:15] <Hixie> think of ports as pipes.
  596. # [23:15] <Hixie> or rather, sockets
  597. # [23:16] <Hixie> when you create a pipe (two sockets) you get both end points
  598. # [23:16] <smaug____> sure
  599. # [23:16] <Hixie> in exactly the way MessageChannel gives you two ports
  600. # [23:16] <Hixie> this is just trying to bring that programming model to JS authors
  601. # [23:16] <smaug____> but why do you need both ends
  602. # [23:16] <smaug____> when you're going to use one end in one context and the other some other context
  603. # [23:19] <Hixie> i don't understand the question
  604. # [23:19] <smaug____> MessageChannel creates two ports in the same context
  605. # [23:19] <smaug____> and then usually, I assume, the other port is sent to otherWindow or worker or whatever
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  607. # [23:19] <smaug____> right?
  608. # [23:19] <Hixie> it can be, doesn't have to be
  609. # [23:19] <smaug____> but that is the basic use case, right?
  610. # [23:19] <Hixie> just like when you create a pipe you often pass one socket to somewhere else
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  613. # [23:20] <smaug____> Why couldn't you just call otherWindow.createPort() which would create one end in the executing context and one port in otherWindow
  614. # [23:20] <smaug____> if you really want to, you could call window.createPort()
  615. # [23:20] <Hixie> so you'd have otherWindow.createPort, worker.createPort, port.createPort, etc?
  616. # [23:20] <smaug____> yes
  617. # [23:21] <Hixie> that would be like having Object.addFunction, Array.addFunction, String.addFunction, etc, instead of having a Function constructor
  618. # [23:21] <Hixie> i mean i guess it's fine, but it's certainly not what i would describe as neat orthogonal api design
  619. # [23:21] <smaug____> that would be like having addEventListener in all the EventTarget objects
  620. # [23:22] <Hixie> no, addEventListener() doesn't create anything
  621. # [23:23] <smaug____> actually, window, worker and port should all inherit, if possible, some comment base interface
  622. # [23:23] <smaug____> s/comment/common/
  623. # [23:23] <Hixie> well they all inherit from EventTarget now so that's not an option anymore
  624. # [23:23] <smaug____> you could add something between eventtarget and the current interface :)
  625. # [23:23] <Hixie> anyway sometimes you just want a standalone message channel because you're goign to be passing it to a callback
  626. # [23:24] <Hixie> the fact that you're going to send the port to someone else is not something you should need to care about when you're creating the port
  627. # [23:24] <Hixie> the port itself is just a capability endpoint
  628. # [23:24] <Hixie> you might keep it in your context, or you might not
  629. # [23:24] <Hixie> that's besides the point
  630. # [23:25] <zewt> passing them around with structured clone also means you're passing them around with an existing communications interface, rather than defining a separate event
  631. # [23:26] <smaug____> I thought the point is to create communication channels between different "contexts"
  632. # [23:26] <zewt> eg. so you can receive a message { type: "email", target: "user@example.com", portForThisInterface: aMessagePort }
  633. # [23:27] <Hixie> smaug____: no, the point is to create a capability token.
  634. # [23:27] <smaug____> huh
  635. # [23:27] <Hixie> smaug____: it just so happens that many times, this will be used in a different context, because in the same context you could get the same effect with a simple function reference
  636. # [23:27] <smaug____> anyway, as of now, I don't think we have plans to implement MessageChannels
  637. # [23:28] <Hixie> the capability programming people will be sad
  638. # [23:31] <smaug____> and, for the common case createPort would make more sense
  639. # [23:31] <Hixie> common case of what?
  640. # [23:31] <zewt> smaug: not really
  641. # [23:31] <smaug____> that you want to enable communication between two different contexts
  642. # [23:31] <Hixie> no
  643. # [23:31] <Hixie> capability tokens aren't about communicating between different contexts
  644. # [23:32] <zewt> it'd separate port creation from other messages, so if you want to create a port with other information attached to it (a description of the port so the other side knows what to do with it), you'd end up duplicating messaging functionality
  645. # [23:32] <Hixie> any more than object orientated programming is about, say, allocating memory. or function dispatch.
  646. # [23:32] <Hixie> they're related, but that's no the point of the feature.
  647. # [23:32] <smaug____> in practice port is all about communication, like sockets
  648. # [23:33] <Hixie> i would imagine that most people writing code that creates capability tokens have the code creating the token quite separate from the communication bootstrapping code
  649. # [23:37] * smaug____ disagrees, but knew that trying get rid of MessageChannel would be hard :)
  650. # [23:37] <Hixie> you didn't even know what capability tokens were an hour ago, i don't think you have much credibility in terms of opinions on how caps programming is done :-P
  651. # [23:38] <smaug____> that is not the point
  652. # [23:38] <smaug____> the point is to have easy to use APIs for web devs
  653. # [23:41] <Hixie> i'm sure we can all agree on that point
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  656. # [23:47] <Hixie> if anyone has opinions on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12306 it would be helpful if you could put them in the bug. Right now I'm leaning towards leaving the MUST in, which makes a lot of <canvas>-based apps non-conforming currently (especially games).
  657. # [23:49] <Hixie> hober: any chance we can get the csswg to use bugzilla?
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  660. # [23:51] <jgraham> Hixie: I think that bug is angels on the head os a pin stuff that will have no effect on any part of the real world. So I wouldn't spend any time on it
  661. # [23:51] <jgraham> I also agree that having to pass around message ports seems weirdly cumbersome, but it does sound quite powerful
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  664. # [23:54] <Hixie> unless you're using their power, you're really not going to need to send them over at all, as far as i can tell. for example workers create them implicitly.
  665. # [23:54] <jgraham> (it might alos be nice if the spec used the word "connected" rather than "entangled" since afaict that is the concept that you are expressing)
  666. # [23:54] <Hixie> i try to use different words so that you can more easily search for them
  667. # [23:54] <Hixie> "connect" is used for far too many concepts already
  668. # [23:55] <jgraham> In this case it sounds like you chose a difficult sounding word at random from a physcs textbook :)
  669. # [23:55] <jgraham> "Coupled" would have worked too
  670. # [23:55] <jgraham> Anyway it is not important
  671. # [23:56] <jgraham> There was already some big debate about the order of arguments in 3 argument postMessage wasn't there?
  672. # [23:57] <Hixie> well "entangled" in the quantum sense does rather describe what's going on here
  673. # [23:57] <jgraham> So it would be unwise of me to say that the current spec seems very strange
  674. # [23:57] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  675. # [23:57] <Hixie> i do not recall one way or the other
  676. # [23:57] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Client Quit)
  677. # [23:57] <Hixie> if it's implemented i don't intend to change it
  678. # [23:58] <jgraham> Sure.
  679. # [23:58] <jgraham> I have no idea if this is implemented
  680. # [23:58] <jgraham> Presumably it is webkit-only if it is
  681. # [23:59] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@bas4-kitchener06-1128762161.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb_)
  682. # [23:59] <Hixie> what's the order and what do you want it to do?
  683. # Session Close: Wed Aug 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)