/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 11 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:19] <Hixie> anyone know if the css rules define how to serialise rgba()'s alpha value?
  13. # [00:23] <tantek> as in how many decimal places?
  14. # [00:23] <nimbu> http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVG11-20030114/masking.html#SimpleAlphaBlending ?
  15. # [00:24] <nimbu> (from http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/REC-css3-color-20110607/#alpha )
  16. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Hixie: They do not.
  17. # [00:24] <Hixie> hmm
  18. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> In general, serialization is a big pile of undefined crap.
  19. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> ;_;
  20. # [00:25] <Hixie> i thought anne had largely fixed that using my proposal
  21. # [00:26] <tantek> Hixie, he did
  22. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> anne hasn't done anything with it, as far as I know. cssom still just has an issue for both <color> and <number>
  23. # [00:26] <tantek> but then we introduced new things into CSS
  24. # [00:26] <tantek> like rgba
  25. # [00:26] * tantek figures Anne will do something sensible.
  26. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Now that fantasai and I are co-editors on the Values & Units spec, we intend to try and define serialization there.
  27. # [00:27] * darin__ is now known as fishd
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  29. # [00:27] <Hixie> man i wish values & units would be implemented by browsers already
  30. # [00:27] <Hixie> i want vh and vw so bad
  31. # [00:28] <Hixie> "User agents must express the fractional part of the alpha value, if any, with the level of precision necessary for the value, when reparsed, to be interpreted as representing the same alpha value.
  32. # [00:28] <Hixie> "
  33. # [00:28] <Hixie> still doesn't quite define what the value should be
  34. # [00:29] <Hixie> e.g. if the underlying precision is a 2-bit precision (0%, 33%, 67%, 100%) it doesn't say whether to express 33% as 0.2, 0.3, or 0.4...
  35. # [00:30] <Hixie> and it doesn't disallow 0.33333333333333333333
  36. # [00:30] <Hixie> well i guess it does disallow it
  37. # [00:30] <Hixie> since that level of precision isn't necessary
  38. # [00:30] <Hixie> hmm
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  41. # [00:31] <Hixie> ok well we'll go with that for now
  42. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Hixie: IE implements the viewport-relative uits.
  43. # [00:32] <Hixie> wow, really?
  44. # [00:32] <Hixie> go IE
  45. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  46. # [00:32] <Hixie> how about calc()? anyone got that yet?
  47. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> (Half-unfortunately, they did so unprefixed, which makes it somewhat more painful to change vm to vmin (so we can allow vmax)).
  48. # [00:33] <Hixie> i specced that like half a decade ago already
  49. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Yes, Firefox and IE have it, Webkit is getting it.
  50. # [00:33] <Hixie> what's vm?
  51. # [00:33] <zewt> i wonder if the algorithm used by python for representing floats as strings is clearly specified
  52. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> vm = min(vh,vw)
  53. # [00:33] <Hixie> ah
  54. # [00:33] <Hixie> just add vb
  55. # [00:33] <Hixie> for "big"
  56. # [00:33] <Hixie> (if you really want it)
  57. # [00:33] <Hixie> (what's the use case for vb?)
  58. # [00:34] <Hixie> or just use min()!
  59. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Dunno yet. I suspect there's one there, but I wouldn't add it yet.
  60. # [00:34] <Hixie> calc(min(1vh,1vw))
  61. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Yes, just using min/max is fine too.
  62. # [00:34] <Philip`> Clearly max should be abbreviated to "vx"
  63. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> And remember, min/max dont' ahve to occur within calc() anymore!
  64. # [00:34] <Hixie> ah, cool
  65. # [00:34] <Hixie> well, cool once implemented
  66. # [00:35] <Hixie> i really wish there was just a single css spec i could keep up with instead of this mass of drafts
  67. # [00:35] <Hixie> anyway
  68. # [00:35] <Hixie> i should take a week to learn where browsers are with css
  69. # [00:36] <jamesr> some 2.1, some 3, and some 4
  70. # [00:36] <jamesr> of course
  71. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> You can just watch the yearly snapshots.
  72. # [00:37] <Hixie> when was the last one of those?
  73. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> That's by definition fairly behind, but still.
  74. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> last year. Fantasai's publihsing one per year now.
  75. # [00:37] <Hixie> link?
  76. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Or rather, intends to (she just started last year).
  77. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-2010/
  78. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> It's just the specs CR or later.
  79. # [00:38] <Hixie> oh
  80. # [00:38] <Hixie> well
  81. # [00:38] <Hixie> that's no good
  82. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Sure, not right now. css-2011 will be quite a bit bigger.
  83. # [00:38] * tantek entertains the idea of an automatically combined spec of latest less-than-year-old WDs + CRs + PRs + RECs of CSS3 modules
  84. # [00:38] <Hixie> what i want to know is what's implemented, and what's still fiction, and apparently what the prefixes are.
  85. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, that's something else. caniuse.com is a partial example
  86. # [00:39] <tantek> Hixie, putting things in one spec won't tell you "what's implemented, and what's still fiction", after all, HTML5 doesn't necessarily tell you what's implemented, and what's still fiction
  87. # [00:39] <Hixie> tantek: well we have hte little status boxes that try to tell you that
  88. # [00:39] <Hixie> tantek: but sure
  89. # [00:39] <tantek> Hixie, yeah, I like the status boxes
  90. # [00:39] <Hixie> tantek: it would, however, help me know what was out there
  91. # [00:40] <tantek> they're a definite improvement
  92. # [00:40] <tantek> I agree, to know "what was out there"
  93. # [00:41] <tantek> I think Eric Meyer complained rather vociferously on Twitter a few months ago about how hard it was for him to track down "all" the CSS3 specs and ascertain their relative levels of status (as opposed to claimed status in the document status section)
  94. # [00:41] <Hixie> yeah
  95. # [00:41] <jamesr> yeah i have no idea how to do that, and i'm pretty sure i've implemented some of it
  96. # [00:41] <tantek> I'm personally thinking of just starting to mark features as at risk or not based on implementation status
  97. # [00:41] <tantek> in the specs I edit
  98. # [00:41] <tantek> even before CR
  99. # [00:42] <Hixie> another way we could do this is by expanding the css section of platform.html5.org
  100. # [00:42] <tantek> I'm not sure centralized works
  101. # [00:42] <tantek> I think we have to upgrade what's expected of spec editors/authors
  102. # [00:42] <tantek> that scales better
  103. # [00:42] <Hixie> no argument from me there
  104. # [00:43] <tantek> is there a "how to" written up somewhere for how a spec editor could add the little status boxes?
  105. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> I'm happy to help out here. I don't think it's appropriate to add an "Implementation Status" section to the specs (it'll be outdated shortly after publication), but maintaining a wiki page or something like that is easy.
  106. # [00:43] * tantek is into writing-up how-to's for spec editors. e.g. http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/cvs
  107. # [00:44] <tantek> Tab - I'm suggestion per property notes, just like the status boxes
  108. # [00:44] * TabAtkins still references that regularly.
  109. # [00:44] * tantek does too.
  110. # [00:44] <Hixie> TabAtkins: in the case of the html spec the "how to" is "write a server-side CGI script that interfaces with a MySQL database, then write a JS front-end that interfaces with the CGI script"
  111. # [00:44] * tantek has run into CVS problems, and googled for the error and found that document. Scary.
  112. # [00:44] <Hixie> er
  113. # [00:44] <Hixie> tantek: ^
  114. # [00:44] <Hixie> tab-completion fail
  115. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> tantek: Yes, I understand. They just can't be part of the spec itself. Having a script that grabs from something external is fine.
  116. # [00:44] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  117. # [00:44] <Hixie> oh, a pun! Tab-completion fail!
  118. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Sigh.
  119. # [00:45] <tantek> lol
  120. # [00:45] <zewt> D:
  121. # [00:45] * TabAtkins thinks he should go ahead and write that.
  122. # [00:45] <tantek> TabAtkins - that would be great if you added support for status boxes to CSS specs
  123. # [00:45] <Hixie> how widespread is CORS support?
  124. # [00:45] * tantek would use it in his specs.
  125. # [00:45] <Hixie> i don't mind hosting the CGI side of this
  126. # [00:46] <Hixie> and then the scripts could just pull from that
  127. # [00:46] <Philip`> If there were status boxes in the CORS spec you'd be able to answer that yourself
  128. # [00:46] <Hixie> tis true
  129. # [00:46] <Hixie> we have a bootstrapping problem
  130. # [00:46] <tantek> I'll gladly test it. For now I've been putting in various notes into css3-ui. And yeah, it's ad hoc but I'm capturing it there because there is an expectation of imminent return to LCWD(2) and then CR (thus tracking "at risk" is important)
  131. # [00:47] * Hixie wonders where the code for the status cgi script is...
  132. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Hixie: No need for a cgi. Just a json file would work.
  133. # [00:48] <Hixie> ah, here we go
  134. # [00:48] <Hixie> TabAtkins: how would you update it?
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  137. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> ...by editting it?
  138. # [00:48] <Hixie> oh
  139. # [00:48] <Hixie> well that's lame
  140. # [00:49] <Hixie> the html spec can be edited by anyone who has sent feedback!
  141. # [00:49] <Hixie> crowd-sourcing
  142. # [00:49] <Hixie> it's fashionable
  143. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Bah.
  144. # [00:49] <Hixie> hah
  145. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> If we check it into dev.w3.org, then anyone with CVS access can update it.
  146. # [00:50] <Hixie> ok well in that case, no need for me to update the status.cgi script, excellent
  147. # [00:50] * TabAtkins is squeamish around SQL these days, anyway.
  148. # [00:51] <Hixie> hah
  149. # [00:51] <Hixie> did it bite you?
  150. # [00:51] <Philip`> How many people have made substantial updates to the HTML spec stat boxes?
  151. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I've been bitten by corruption before. Binary formats are the devil.
  152. # [00:51] <Hixie> ah well yeah
  153. # [00:51] <Hixie> i make daily text-form backups
  154. # [00:52] <Hixie> Philip`: please hold
  155. # [00:52] <Philip`> (If it's only like two people then a static file seems good enough)
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  158. # [00:54] <Hixie> Philip`: how many changes is "substantial"
  159. # [00:55] <Peter`> ideally we'd have one central place to track implementation status of web platform features
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  161. # [00:55] <Peter`> combining the stability of the specification (or rather, chapter in the specification) with the various rendering engines and associated browsers
  162. # [00:55] <Peter`> some kind of (semi-)official caniuse.com
  163. # [00:56] <Philip`> Hixie: Probably the shape of the distribution is more important than the numbers
  164. # [00:58] <Hixie> the answer seems to be "4". http://junkyard.damowmow.com/493
  165. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> 4 besides you? I'd rate zcorpan as substantial.
  166. # [00:59] <Hixie> 4 including me
  167. # [00:59] <Hixie> zcorpan == simonp
  168. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  169. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait, didn't realize he was further down the list as well.
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  171. # [01:00] <Hixie> (the database stores every change so i can nuke a griefer pretty easily by just deleting their changes and the status just reverts to the previous state)
  172. # [01:02] <Philip`> Looks like the long tail of contributors is actually a pretty small tail, so the crowdsourcing probably isn't hugely useful
  173. # [01:03] * tantek likes wikis for crowd sourcing that kind of thing.
  174. # [01:04] <hober> indeed
  175. # [01:04] <Hixie> in this particular instance i think the real trouble is discoverability
  176. # [01:04] <Hixie> first you have to send feedback, then you have to log in, then you have to magically guess that you have to alt-double-click
  177. # [01:04] <Hixie> it's pretty obscure
  178. # [01:04] <Hixie> i've had several people ask me about it
  179. # [01:05] <Hixie> including a number of people trying to update the values by submitting bugs
  180. # [01:05] <Hixie> i think we could massively improve matters just by making it easier to update values
  181. # [01:05] <Philip`> Alt-double-click doesn't even work in my browser (since the window manager interprets it as the start of drag-moving a window), though I think shift-alt-double-click worked okay
  182. # [01:06] <Hixie> yeah i worked pretty hard to find a test that worked everywhere with some combination or other
  183. # [01:06] <Hixie> but anyway, we could e.g. have non-logged-in be able to submit values that displayed their IP instead of them having to log in first
  184. # [01:06] <Hixie> and we could put an "edit" link in the boxes
  185. # [01:08] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona) (Quit: cgcardona)
  186. # [01:15] <jamesr> Philip`: qq - do you have any canvas 2d tests for globalCompositeOperation=copy and fillText()?
  187. # [01:15] <jamesr> in the suite?
  188. # [01:15] <jamesr> we fail on that currently in WebKit
  189. # [01:16] <jamesr> and implementations might use different logic for their text drawing routines than for other draw calls
  190. # [01:16] <Hixie> oh hey it turns out anyone can get an account, not just those who have sent feedback
  191. # [01:16] <Hixie> wonder when i changed that
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  193. # [01:18] <Philip`> jamesr: I don't think so, though I have a note in my write-only todo list about that
  194. # [01:21] <Hixie> ok i've updated the status boxes to have an edit link
  195. # [01:21] <Hixie> also slightly tweaked them
  196. # [01:23] <Hixie> any transition experts in the house? how do i transition from height:0 to height:auto?
  197. # [01:23] <jamesr> lawl
  198. # [01:23] <jamesr> :(
  199. # [01:23] <jamesr> you don't
  200. # [01:23] <hober> heh
  201. # [01:23] <jamesr> you can measure what height:auto would resolve to and then transition from 0 to that value
  202. # [01:24] <hober> Hixie: transitions to or from auto don't work
  203. # [01:24] <Hixie> ok. that's lame.
  204. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Transition max-height from 0 to a mild overestimate of the height.
  205. # [01:24] <Hixie> someone fix that.
  206. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Yes, it is totally fucking lame.
  207. # [01:24] <Hixie> TabAtkins: hmm, good idea.
  208. # [01:25] <Hixie> ok i hid the ID in the status boxes, it now appears on hover
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  230. # [02:14] <TabAtkins> Cross-origin XHR is completely disallowed, right? Even just sending the request, not just receiving the response?
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  233. # [02:17] <jamesr> sicking: you there?
  234. # [02:18] <sicking> jamesr: yo
  235. # [02:18] <sicking> TabAtkins: how do you mean?
  236. # [02:18] <sicking> TabAtkins: you can do cross-origin XHR using CORS
  237. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> Right, but outside of that it's disallowed.
  238. # [02:18] <sicking> TabAtkins: which means that you can make the request in many cases without the server opting in
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  240. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> sicking: What do you mean? What I'm asking about is using XHR to send data from client->server only, not caring about the response back.
  241. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> (Actually asking about a different API that effectively accomplishes that.)
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  243. # [02:20] <sicking> TabAtkins: yup, you can basically do that, as long as you use POST with a limited set of Content-Types
  244. # [02:20] <TabAtkins> Without having to invoke CORS?
  245. # [02:20] <sicking> well, it invokes CORS
  246. # [02:20] <sicking> but CORS doesn't do anything until it start receiving a response
  247. # [02:21] <sicking> since CORS is response-header based
  248. # [02:21] <sicking> note, that you can only do this if your POST is fairly "plain"
  249. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> That's what I thought. So the actual message from client->server gets through regardless.
  250. # [02:21] <sicking> i.e. you can't set any custom headers
  251. # [02:21] <sicking> TabAtkins: yup
  252. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> kk.
  253. # [02:21] <sicking> TabAtkins: just like with <form>
  254. # [02:22] <TabAtkins> All right, cool.
  255. # [02:23] <TabAtkins> (Context is someone pinging me about the feasibility of a built-in bugreporting function, that lets you specify a url to post to, some custom data to send, and a list of UA-provided data that you'd like, so the browser can let the user decide what to send and then post for you.)
  256. # [02:23] <jamesr> sicking: for XHR 'text' can be considered a parsed format
  257. # [02:24] <jamesr> sicking: what happens if the text is encoded in utf-8 and only part of the codepoint sequence (or whatever unicode calls it) is in the most recently received packet?
  258. # [02:24] <sicking> jamesr: then you don't return that character until in the next progress notification
  259. # [02:24] <jamesr> but the idea is the browser could ditch most of the response?
  260. # [02:24] <sicking> jamesr: yup
  261. # [02:25] <sicking> all but the last few bytes
  262. # [02:26] <jamesr> would be nice
  263. # [02:26] <sicking> TabAtkins: just make sure to not even return a error code indicating if the submission succeeded or not
  264. # [02:26] <TabAtkins> Ah, good point.
  265. # [02:27] <jamesr> what happens if you try to set .responseType after receiving a few progress events? it throws an error?
  266. # [02:27] <sicking> yes, that's already the case
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  379. # [08:36] <zcorpan> ooooh http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#attribute-case
  380. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I don't understand http://html5.org/r/6413
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  382. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> the spec already states that maxlength on input@type=number is not valid
  383. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> so validator.nu currently emits an error for it
  384. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> this change would cause it to emit a warning in addition to an error
  385. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> unless I'm misunderstanding something
  386. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> but http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/number-state.html#number-state lists maxlength under "The following content attributes must not be specified and do not apply to the element"
  387. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> and http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-input-element.html#input-type-attr-summary also indicates that maxlength is now allowed on input@type=number
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  389. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> if the intent is to actually make it conforming but obsolete, it seems like those parts of the spec should be changed as well
  390. # [08:49] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: "should not" means it's allowed if you have a good reason
  391. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> OK
  392. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> but if so, those two parts of the spec should be changed
  393. # [08:50] <zcorpan> yeah
  394. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> I don't see how otherwise we can make any changes to the validation behavior
  395. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> I'm post a comment to the bug
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  457. # [11:00] <zcorpan> so if i'm reading the spec right it allows <link rel="help shortcut icon" ...>
  458. # [11:01] <zcorpan> does that work in ie?
  459. # [11:02] <zcorpan> i guess it does since hsivonen tested it
  460. # [11:03] <GlitchMr> I will check :P
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  462. # [11:05] <GlitchMr> http://glitchmr.pl/private/favtest.php
  463. # [11:05] <GlitchMr> It seems to work under IE9
  464. # [11:06] <GlitchMr> It also seems to work under Quirks Mode...
  465. # [11:06] <GlitchMr> validator.nu seems to accept such structure and it seems to not cause issues with IE
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  467. # [11:08] <GlitchMr> But then, semantically it doesn't make sense
  468. # [11:08] <GlitchMr> How can be shortcut icon helpful?
  469. # [11:09] * abarth|gardener is now known as abarth|zZz
  470. # [11:11] <zcorpan> heh
  471. # [11:12] <zcorpan> well it must be helpful for something else you wouldn't include it in the first place
  472. # [11:12] <GlitchMr> You can use <link rel="help" href="..."> for help pages for examples
  473. # [11:13] <GlitchMr> example*
  474. # [11:13] <GlitchMr> Many browsers show their help on "About"->"Help" or something like this. Some might have reason to insert help into webpage :P
  475. # [11:14] <GlitchMr> But favicon.ico is helpful by itself (in visual browsers), but it's not help page...
  476. # [11:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: can you make the status boxes increase z-index on hover so you can access ones that are overlapped by other status boxes?
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  480. # [11:34] <Ms2ger> Oh hey, I'm below zcorpan in status annotation edits...
  481. # [11:34] * Ms2ger goes off to fix that
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  602. # [17:43] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  608. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> Alan Gresley just said my head might be filled with crack. ;_;
  609. # [17:50] <jgraham> Is this from the "chocolate teapot orbiting the sun" school of "might"?
  610. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> Not sure. Alan's kinda crazy himself.
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  612. # [17:53] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Sounds like you could make a fortune by selling your head
  613. # [17:54] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, what probability are we talking about here? I mean, not to put too fine a point on it, but that would m -- drat, Philip` beat me to it.
  614. # [17:54] <AryehGregor> I mean, what would that be, a few pounds of crack? What's the street value of that?
  615. # [17:55] <dglazkov> I somehow doubt it's crack.
  616. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> I like my head. If there's crack in there, evidence says that I'm using it to think.
  617. # [17:55] <dglazkov> ah. that's where the old "get cracking" saying comes from.
  618. # [17:55] <Philip`> Heads are nice, but money is nice too, so you have to balance both sides of the argument
  619. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> I mean, half a head would be about as useful, no?
  620. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> I use more than half of my head.
  621. # [17:58] <gsnedders> int a = 5; int *ptr = &a; size_t foo = ptr; <- foo is now the memory address that ptr points to, right?
  622. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> How much of that is just for waste-ink?
  623. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, surely that would warn
  624. # [17:58] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Ooh, good point.
  625. # [17:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: I think so, though I'm not sure size_t is guaranteed to be pointer-sized
  626. # [17:59] * Ms2ger liked that name
  627. # [17:59] <Philip`> intptr_t is better if you want a pointer-sized int
  628. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> I think gsnedders actually wants = *ptr
  629. # [17:59] <Philip`> That would give foo = 5
  630. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> Right
  631. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> I knew that! ;)
  632. # [18:00] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I don't want foo = 5; I want the address that ptr points to.
  633. # [18:00] * Philip` has no idea what gsnedders actually wants
  634. # [18:00] <Philip`> Ah
  635. # [18:00] <gsnedders> The memory address of a, effectively.
  636. # [18:00] * jgraham doesn't like to think about what gsnedders wants
  637. # [18:01] <Philip`> ptr is already the memory address
  638. # [18:01] <Ms2ger> Why the hell are you trying to stick that into a size_t?
  639. # [18:01] <Philip`> so if you copy it into another variable then it's still that memory address (modulo 2^something)
  640. # [18:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: Okay, that's what I thought.
  641. # [18:02] <Ms2ger> But you do want intptr_t or uintptr_t
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  643. # [18:03] <jgraham> Gotta love C and all the million sometime-interchangable, but not safely, types
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  645. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> Don't you like C++ more? It has namespaces!
  646. # [18:05] <Philip`> If you want to be like the cool kids you could store the pointer in the NaN space of a double
  647. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> Philip`, ... do you do that?
  648. # [18:05] <Philip`> I'm not cool enough :-(
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  650. # [18:09] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: JS engines do, on 32-bit arches
  651. # [18:09] <Philip`> At least SpiderMonkey on 64-bit too
  652. # [18:10] <Ms2ger> JS engines are a mess of their own
  653. # [18:10] * Philip` thinks nanboxing and nunboxing would be interesting new Olympic sports
  654. # [18:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: How? Assuming no pointer will be over 53-bits?
  655. # [18:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: 47 bits, I think
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  657. # [18:12] <gsnedders> Then what about the other six? Obviously they have to reserve one NaN value as NaN, and it can't be zero (because then it's not NaN but Inf)
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  660. # [18:13] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: (The reason why I was using size_t above was because that's what Cython does… although I know it isn't guaranteed to work…)
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  662. # [18:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: amd64 only has 48-bit virtual address space, and I think the 48th bit is magic and is always 0 in interesting OSes
  663. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah.
  664. # [18:18] <Philip`> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Canonical_form_addresses etc)
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  692. # [19:21] <Hixie> zcorpan: done (the z-index thing)
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  697. # [19:26] <Ms2ger`> People might be somewhat interested in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2011JulSep/0007.html (MO)
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  729. # [20:01] <espadrine> Ms2ger`: There is no locked-up equivalent to that mailing-list, is there?
  730. # [20:02] <Ms2ger`> Hmm?
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  739. # [20:27] <espadrine> Ms2ger`: We can't access http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2011JulSep/0007.html
  740. # [20:27] <Ms2ger`> Right
  741. # [20:28] <espadrine> without W3C names
  742. # [20:28] <Ms2ger`> Would've linked to a public copy if there was one
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  744. # [20:29] <espadrine> too bad there isn't one
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  746. # [20:32] <gnarf> seems to be an error in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/urls.html#url-decomposition-idl-attributes regarding the "port" attribute
  747. # [20:33] <gnarf> ooo wait
  748. # [20:33] <gnarf> nvm
  749. # [20:33] <gnarf> read a column header wrong
  750. # [20:34] <gnarf> cancel the alarm!!!
  751. # [20:34] * gnarf hides
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  799. # [22:37] * AryehGregor discovers another person who spells his name Areyeh -- interesting
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  804. # [22:54] <KevinMarks> there's now a .ss TLD coming. Who's going to get c.ss ?
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  820. # [23:19] <karlcow> http://highscalability.com/blog/2011/8/10/leveldb-fast-and-lightweight-keyvalue-database-from-the-auth.html
  821. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> Ooh, that sounds fun.
  822. # [23:20] <karlcow> wondering if it will show up in Google line of products
  823. # [23:20] <karlcow> ah it's already
  824. # [23:20] <karlcow> "LevelDB is being used as the back-end for IndexedDB in Chrome. For designing how to map secondary indices into LevelDB key/values, look at how the IndexedDB support within Chrome is implemented."
  825. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Yeah, sqlite has corruption issues when it runs for a long time (not really its fault - its from occasional misplaced writes in other processes).
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  827. # [23:22] <Hixie> "misplaced writes"?
  828. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> You know, writes to a dangling pointer or something. Otherwise known as "security vulnerabilities".
  829. # [23:23] <Hixie> how can you cause corruption in another _process_?
  830. # [23:23] <Hixie> don't modern OSes pretty much make that impossible?
  831. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> Dont' ask me. I'm recalling lunchtime conversation.
  832. # [23:24] <Hixie> if the problem is other code in the _same_ process randomly stomping on the space used by the sqlite library, it seems any library would suffer the same problem
  833. # [23:24] <AryehGregor> Hixie, maybe when two processes have the same database file open and one writes to it in a way that's not coordinated with the other, so the other winds up reading garbage somehow?
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  835. # [23:25] <Hixie> that'd be a bug in sqlite's locking
  836. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> I thought only one process can open an SQLite database at a time, though.
  837. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I dunno.
  838. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: It wasn't sqlite's problem directly; it was definitely memory corruption coming from elsewhere.
  839. # [23:26] <zewt> so it's very wrong to say "sqlite has corruption issues"
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  841. # [23:26] <Hixie> yeah i don't see why sqlite would be any more at risk than leveldb
  842. # [23:27] <Hixie> but what do i know :-)
  843. # [23:27] <zewt> which I doubt anyone would accept anyway; sqlite should be high on any competent programmer's top-five list of most reliable libraries in the world
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  845. # [23:28] <karlcow> the storage library the highest on my list is definitely… my fridge!
  846. # [23:28] <karlcow> every day, a few times a day.
  847. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> zewt: From the conversation I had with a guy working on indexeddb, sqlite made some not-strictly-required architectural decisions that mean that it holds its memory for too long, making it more subject to this kind of corruption.
  848. # [23:30] <zewt> sounds like a very contrived argument
  849. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> I may be misstating things.
  850. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> zewt: I'm not sure what you're trying to imply. We used sqlite. We had regular db corruption. We traced it to a problem with the design of sqlite.
  851. # [23:31] <jgraham> It seems to me that "it's not designed to be a k-v store" might be a god enough reason on its own to think about other solutions for indexeddb
  852. # [23:31] <jgraham> *good
  853. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> I'm not saying sqlite is horrible. I'm saying it didn't suit our needs, so we designed a new one.
  854. # [23:31] <jamesr> i don't think the primary motivation for leveldb was sqlite db corruption bugs
  855. # [23:31] <jamesr> although it may have been one
  856. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Indeed, that too.
  857. # [23:31] <jamesr> jgraham: exactly
  858. # [23:31] <zewt> ... if library X writes to random memory locations and corrupts memory owned by library Y, it is not in any conceivable sense library Y's fault for "holding that memory for too long"
  859. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> jamesr: It was the reason that FileSystem is switching from sqlite to leveldb, at least.
  860. # [23:31] <zewt> "i shot some bullets down the street and someone got hit, it's hit fault for standing there for so long"
  861. # [23:31] <Philip`> Most databases have a separate server process, so only bugs in that process could scribble over the database, whereas SQLite runs in the address space of the host application so it's vulnerable to bugs in any applications that touch the database
  862. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> zewt: Robustness. If Y can avoid a lot of those problems, but it doesn't, then that's a problem.
  863. # [23:32] <Philip`> though LevelDB seems to be embedded in applications too so it'd be just as vulnerable
  864. # [23:32] <zewt> avoid problems caused by unrelated code smashing memory? sorry, that's utter nonsense
  865. # [23:32] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Why have there not been issues with corruptions with the insane number of other people using SqLite3?
  866. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> zewt: I'm not blaming anybody, so don't treat it as a personal attack. I'm saying that we needed something that didn't stand in the street quite so long.
  867. # [23:32] <zewt> problems caused by code smashing random memory (or whatever) is the fault of that code and that code alone
  868. # [23:32] <karlcow> http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2011/07/leveldb-fast-persistent-key-value-store.html
  869. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: No clue. Again, I'm relaying lunchtime conversation.
  870. # [23:33] <zewt> i'm not treating anything as a personal attack; i have nothing to do with sqlite development
  871. # [23:33] <karlcow> http://leveldb.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/benchmark.html
  872. # [23:33] <zewt> i'm saying it's a ridiculous, nonsensical reason to change libraries.
  873. # [23:33] <Hixie> either it's a bug in sqlite that should be fixed, or it's a bug in the surrounding code and leveldb would be equally vulnerable, as far as i can tell
  874. # [23:33] <jamesr> no, there were others
  875. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> zewt: If you're shooting bullets into the street, it's your fault when you hit somebody. But if you're relying on something that needs to cross the street, it's better to rely on one that won't spend as long in the crossfire.
  876. # [23:34] * Joins: walbert (~Walt@ip55-26-15-186.ct.co.cr)
  877. # [23:34] <jgraham> Quick to the car metaphors!
  878. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> Car metaphors explains EVERYTHING.
  879. # [23:34] <jgraham> +,
  880. # [23:34] <zewt> changing libraries means whoever's firing the bullets is going to be hitting other things, and it'll be some other random piece of code being broken
  881. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> zewt: ...yes? And with luck, it'll be something that doesn't lose long-term data when it errors out.
  882. # [23:35] <Hixie> luck seems like a rather crappy design philosophy :-)
  883. # [23:35] <zewt> it's just nonsense FUD that'll lead less experienced developers to believe that "leveldb" (whatever that is) is more reliable than sqlite, which is bogus
  884. # [23:35] <jamesr> i'm pretty sure that leveldb is no safer to memory corruption in your process than anything else
  885. # [23:36] <Hixie> yeah i don't see how it could be
  886. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> zewt: Argh, I'm saying, very specifically, that one of *our* teams is running into this problem with sqlite, and is switching to leveldb because it fixes the architectural issue.
  887. # [23:36] <zewt> if you really want to protect from corruption, move your sqlite access into a helper process and proxy SQL commands to it
  888. # [23:36] * jgraham thinks that having arguments based on half-remembered lunch conversations using metaphors involving violent death is probably not the road to enlightenment
  889. # [23:36] <zewt> which seems like a much simpler engineering task than changing backends
  890. # [23:36] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3) (Quit: hij1nx)
  891. # [23:37] <zewt> and much more effective
  892. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> zewt: I'm not talking about general engineering advice to the world at large.
  893. # [23:37] <Philip`> The road to enlightenment is strewn with randomly-shot bullets that luckily missed all the databases
  894. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> How true.
  895. # [23:38] <jamesr> since it's a piece of software
  896. # [23:38] * jamesr agrees with jgraham and goes back to work
  897. # [23:38] <jgraham> Ah, well in that case I will know to take that one rather than the one paved with good intentions
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The end :)