/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 12 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> http://html5.org/r/6419 ++
  19. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> Way too many people get that wrong.
  20. # [00:20] <Hixie> srsly
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  173. # [09:39] <zcorpan> <http://www.w3.org/mid/D0BC8E77E79D9846B61A2432D1BA4EAE0341573B@TK5EX14MBXC287.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> - wonder if i should object
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  195. # [11:12] <jgraham> zcorpan: I swear DOM3 events is happening in some alternate reality
  196. # [11:17] <Ms2ger> And it only connects to our reality every few months?
  197. # [11:23] <Ms2ger> Do browsers support object.contentWindow?
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  200. # [11:27] <Ms2ger> Ah, looks like Opera does
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  228. # [13:48] <zcorpan> oh hey, the splitter ids have been updated! yay
  229. # [13:49] <zcorpan> or not? complete/ has video in the-iframe-element.html but multipage/ has video in the-video-element.html
  230. # [13:49] <zcorpan> Philip`: ^
  231. # [13:51] <Philip`> I think my instance of the splitter is only used for multipage/
  232. # [13:51] <Philip`> (and is the latest code from SVN)
  233. # [13:52] <Philip`> I don't know where complete/ is generated
  234. # [13:52] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
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  276. # [15:57] <karlcow> http://norman.walsh.name/2011/08/12/styleThis
  277. # [15:57] <karlcow> Styling list numerations with CSS
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  300. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> Oops! Google Chrome could not connect to software.hixie.ch
  301. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> Try reloading: software.­hixie.­ch/­utilities/­js/­live-­dom-­viewer/­
  302. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> Nooooooooooo
  303. # [17:10] <Ms2ger> And Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at junkyard.damowmow.com either
  304. # [17:11] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@12.46.213.219) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  305. # [17:11] <AryehGregor> But whatwg.org is up. I thought they were on the same Dreamhost account?
  306. # [17:13] <smaug____> Hixie: you were writing down some ideas for <dialog>. I wonder where that page is
  307. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> wiki.whatwg.org somewher
  308. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> +e
  309. # [17:13] <smaug____> (since I wonder why we need dialog when we have showModalDialog)
  310. # [17:14] <smaug____> browsers could just implement showModalDialog in a bit different way
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  313. # [17:36] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  314. # [17:36] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  315. # [17:38] <Ms2ger> Evening
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  319. # [17:39] <manu-db> Suggestion that the W3C TAG shut down the RDFa/Microdata Task Force initiative: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Aug/0050.html
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  324. # [17:50] <jgraham> Does anyone other than Opera support DOM 3 Load and Save?
  325. # [17:51] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-69-148.dynamic.qsc.de)
  326. # [17:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: No
  327. # [17:53] <karlcow> jgraham: yes. Let me search, because I do not remember where
  328. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> We don't
  329. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> Except for some stuff on XHRProgressEvent
  330. # [17:54] <karlcow> Xerces-C++
  331. # [17:55] <karlcow> http://xerces.apache.org/xerces-c/program-dom-3.html
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  334. # [17:56] <karlcow> Xerces is incomplete though
  335. # [17:56] <karlcow> there is also http://www.doxdesk.com/software/py/pxdom.html
  336. # [17:57] <karlcow> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2003OctDec/0064.html
  337. # [17:57] <karlcow> and X-Hive, incomplete too
  338. # [17:57] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/2003/10/DOM-Level-3-LS-implementations.html
  339. # [17:57] <jgraham> karlcow: That was a long way of saying "no"
  340. # [17:58] <jgraham> No one that needs to interoperate with web browsers
  341. # [17:58] <karlcow> heh, you didn't ask that question ;)
  342. # [17:58] <jgraham> This is #whatwg, it is implied :p
  343. # [17:59] <karlcow> haaa if you changed the rules
  344. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> There are no rules ;)
  345. # [17:59] <karlcow> sense of logic on #whatwg
  346. # [17:59] <karlcow> ;)
  347. # [17:59] <jgraham> Well it would be logical that there was never a sense of logic. Having one sometimes is only illogical
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  351. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: http://nooooooooooooooo.com/
  352. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> for i in `seq 50`; do echo -n "$i: "; dig +short n`yes o | tr -d "\n" | head -c $i`.com; done
  353. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> Quite interesting, actually.
  354. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> (for i in `seq 62`; do dig +short n`yes o | tr -d "\n" | head -c $i`.com | tr "\n" " "; echo -e "\t$i"; done) | sort
  355. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> (for i in `seq 62`; do dig +short n`yes o | tr -d "\n" | head -c $i`.com; done) | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr
  356. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> Most of these point to 72.3.199.7.
  357. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> The one with 15 o's is the only one that points to 74.208.14.77.
  358. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> Actually, there are only six IPs that have more than one variant pointing to them.
  359. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> Hahaha, now I see what you're doing.
  360. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> Okay, I really need to do work instead of wasting time.
  361. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> Did you run the commands?
  362. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  363. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> And I was confused by the list of ips.
  364. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> It only goes up to 62, apparently no part of the domain name can be longer than 63 bytes.
  365. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> Then I man'd some of the commands and figured it out.
  366. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> That command is a test of your Unix command line knowledge.
  367. # [18:24] * AryehGregor doesn't know if there's any easier way to repeat a string than yes piped to tr and head
  368. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> python "print i*\"o"
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  371. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> Doesn't appear to be on my machine, but "string" has the ability to do that easily.
  372. # [18:35] <swarren08> Which browser right now has the most support for HTML5?
  373. # [18:35] <swarren08> everything i see is chrome beta 13 and 14
  374. # [18:36] <smaug____> swarren08: define HTML5 ;)
  375. # [18:36] <swarren08> lol
  376. # [18:36] <swarren08> good point
  377. # [18:36] <smaug____> and define "support"
  378. # [18:36] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:401:b0fb:30d8:3d1c:4d98)
  379. # [18:37] <smaug____> is support something that browser report to web page, or is it something actually usable
  380. # [18:37] <swarren08> Support= me using html5 and the browser showing it
  381. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> But the answer is obviously Firefox
  382. # [18:37] <smaug____> :p
  383. # [18:37] <swarren08> i use firefox nightly
  384. # [18:37] <swarren08> and chrome b13
  385. # [18:38] <swarren08> i have not tried internet explorer since ie7
  386. # [18:38] * KittyGirl is now known as desirednick
  387. # [18:38] <gnarf> b13? isnt 13 stable now?
  388. # [18:38] * desirednick is now known as KittyGirl
  389. # [18:38] <smaug____> I would guess Firefox,Chrome and Opera are pretty much in the same level
  390. # [18:38] <smaug____> they just happen to "support" different things
  391. # [18:38] <swarren08> not to my knowledge
  392. # [18:39] <swarren08> i just download the beta via google
  393. # [18:39] <swarren08> 12.0.725.0 beta-m
  394. # [18:39] <swarren08> and got that
  395. # [18:39] <gnarf> chrome stable: http://cl.ly/1N261S430A403g172M0g
  396. # [18:39] <gesa> http://caniuse.com
  397. # [18:40] <swarren08> ah
  398. # [18:40] <swarren08> correct it is stable
  399. # [18:40] <swarren08> i just restarted chrome again
  400. # [18:40] <swarren08> and am currently sitting at 14.0.835.35 beta-m
  401. # [18:40] * swarren08 wishes he could use cloudapp
  402. # [18:41] <timeless> karlcow: the list numeration thing is impressively depressing
  403. # [18:42] <timeless> i think the way to do start right for the other case is probably: <ol><li class="hidden"><li class="hidden"><li class="hidden"><li class="hidden"><li class="hidden"><li class="hidden"><li class="hidden"><li class="hidden"><li class="hidden"><li>This is a continued list
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  406. # [18:45] <swarren08> this version of chrome doesnt support Microdata
  407. # [18:45] <timeless> fwiw, ie10preview-whatever is pretty good
  408. # [18:45] <timeless> if you have windows, you really should grab it
  409. # [18:45] <timeless> they're actually implementing various proposals and giving constructive feedback
  410. # [18:45] <timeless> (they really aren't the enemy you remember)
  411. # [18:46] <swarren08> i remember, i just never liked ie
  412. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> Just wait until Windows 8. I'm betting on the enemy I remember returning.
  413. # [18:46] <swarren08> to be honest, i forgot why...
  414. # [18:46] <timeless> what do you remember the enemy doing?
  415. # [18:46] <timeless> fwiw, ie has gotten a bunch of things right
  416. # [18:47] <timeless> among other things, their developer tools (js debugger/profiler) are better than many others
  417. # [18:47] <timeless> they also automatically profile addons and tell end users when there are slow ones
  418. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> Embracing a platform, extending it with proprietary extensions, releasing dev tools that make it really easy to use said extensions, then taking the platform the way they want now that they ahve a captive audience.
  419. # [18:47] <timeless> and ie doesn't automatically enable addons anymore
  420. # [18:47] * eric_carlson is now known as ericc|away
  421. # [18:47] <timeless> you're told when new addons are added and you get to *choose* to enable them
  422. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> Basically I'm not afraid of IE. I'm afraid of Windows.
  423. # [18:47] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@65.42.208.134)
  424. # [18:47] <timeless> so far i haven't seen any addons violent/evil enough to violate that
  425. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> swarren08, Firefox/Chrome/Opera are all pretty comparable in standards support. Firefox/Chrome somewhat more, maybe. Safari is like Chrome except it lags behind due to release schedule. IE is worse, but it's rapidly closing the gap with IE9 and now IE10.
  426. # [18:48] <timeless> (my bet is microsoft would crack down on such things)
  427. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> Yeah, IE9's addon handling is awesome.
  428. # [18:48] * timeless nods
  429. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> "Do you want to enable Piece-of-Garbage Add-On by Some Random Company You've Heard of But Never Authorized to Install Add-Ons, Inc.?" "No"
  430. # [18:48] <timeless> "and thanks for asking me"
  431. # [18:49] <timeless> which reminds me, i need to file a bug, our internal addon doesn't list a vendor
  432. # [18:49] <gesa> Or "This add-on created by M$ is doubling launch time. Do you want to disable it?"
  433. # [18:49] <swarren08> Like i said, i havent tried ie since ie7... and now that we are on ie9 (and beta 10) i figure ill give it a shot
  434. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> "Did you realize that all these stupid add-ons that have enabled themselves are causing the browser to take an extra 4.75 s to start up?" "Good grief, no, disable them all"
  435. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> Firefox should get with the picture on that score.
  436. # [18:49] <swarren08> yea
  437. # [18:50] <timeless> oh, right, they also have a genuine "disable all" button
  438. # [18:50] <timeless> Multiple add-ons are selected
  439. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> Add-ons are a huge performance drain in some cases. Which is why when I used Firefox, I eventually wound up with a grand total of like three extensions, and I was suspicious of those.
  440. # [18:50] <timeless> You have selected multiple add-ons in the list above. You can enable or disable all selected add-ons by clicking the appropriate button below.
  441. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> Firebug definitely killed performance in some cases, although it's probably gotten better.
  442. # [18:51] <timeless> i'm using 8, i don't have firebug
  443. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> At one point I actually saw a notification in Gmail saying "Hey, we noticed you're using Firebug, and our statistics show this murders page responsiveness. Disable it when you're not using it."
  444. # [18:51] <swarren08> Firefox use to be pretty fast
  445. # [18:51] <timeless> AryehGregor: yeah, i remember that
  446. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> Sadly, Firebug is still essential for me on Firefox.
  447. # [18:51] <timeless> +1 to gmail team for doing that
  448. # [18:51] <swarren08> thats pretty cool
  449. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> I think Firebug has gotten better, though, like not enabling the network tab unless you're viewing it.
  450. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I had like 30 FF extensions. I just didn't shut it down often, and when I did took it as an opportunity to make myself a snack.
  451. # [18:51] <timeless> heh
  452. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, they can also slow down page load.
  453. # [18:51] * timeless should get lunch
  454. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> And new tab creation time.
  455. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Apparently not enough for me to have cared at the time.
  456. # [18:52] <smaug____> swarren08: Firefox is a lot faster than ever ;)
  457. # [18:52] <timeless> AryehGregor: note that IE actually tells you if an add-on slows down start up or page load
  458. # [18:52] <timeless> w/ timings!
  459. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, or you just didn't realize how much slower it was making your browsing.
  460. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> Maybe that's part of why Chrome seemed so much faster when you tried it. :)
  461. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> timeless, yes, it's absolutely awesome.
  462. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> Firefox needs to just clone the whole feature.
  463. # [18:52] <smaug____> AryehGregor: Btw, Skype extension has been the worst extension ever, I think
  464. # [18:52] <smaug____> perf-vise
  465. # [18:52] <smaug____> it slowed down some DOM operations like 300x
  466. # [18:52] <swarren08> yes
  467. # [18:52] <timeless> smaug____: well, scanning the entire page for phone numbers...
  468. # [18:52] <timeless> constantly
  469. # [18:53] <swarren08> thank you to chrome
  470. # [18:53] <swarren08> it automatically shuts off my skype extension
  471. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> FWIW, I did notice a huge responsiveness difference between Firefox 3.6 (with *no* extensions) and Chrome on Linux when I tried them. It got a lot better with Firefox 4.
  472. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I switched to Chrome for the UI, not the speed.
  473. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> But you really can't beat Chrome's "nothing ever freezes the UI even briefly".
  474. # [18:53] <swarren08> The UI is very impressive
  475. # [18:53] <timeless> AryehGregor: have you had the chrome in IE freeze?
  476. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> That's not 100% true, but yeah, it's nice.
  477. # [18:53] * Quits: benjoffe (~benjoffe@r49-2-10-185.cpe.vividwireless.net.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
  478. # [18:53] <smaug____> AryehGregor: have you tried printing with Chrome ;)
  479. # [18:53] <timeless> i don't think i've seen it freeze in ie9/10 except when they crash
  480. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> Versus Firefox's "mostly the UI is responsive but the whole browser can hang sometimes due to long-running script etc.".
  481. # [18:53] <smaug____> that is the way to freeze Chrome
  482. # [18:53] <timeless> which doesn't count (and yes, i've crashed chrome)
  483. # [18:54] <swarren08> i dont think ive creshed chrome
  484. # [18:54] <AryehGregor> smaug____, I don't have a printer. Do people still use paper these days? I haven't noticed.
  485. # [18:54] <swarren08> i crash firefox and nightly constantly
  486. # [18:54] * timeless prints
  487. # [18:54] <AryehGregor> (actually, I just use my parents' printer if I need one, and Chrome prints fine in my experience)
  488. # [18:54] <smaug____> printing has been the way to hang and crash chrome
  489. # [18:54] <timeless> swarren08: have you used about:crashes and ensured there are bugs filed?
  490. # [18:54] <swarren08> yep
  491. # [18:54] <AryehGregor> I haven't seen a whole-browser crash in Chrome for at least a year or two.
  492. # [18:54] <swarren08> i always do
  493. # [18:54] <swarren08> and i always put my email in
  494. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> I've seen plenty of individual tab crashes.
  495. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> Sometimes reproducible.
  496. # [18:55] <dglazkov> oh cool, a browser bash
  497. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> But they're really no big deal, just refresh.
  498. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> I suppose I havent' seen a full renderer crash since the %: or whatever bug.
  499. # [18:55] <dglazkov> I like curl myself
  500. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> (I especially get crashes in Web Inspector)
  501. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: I use a shell script that uses curl and smtp so I can read the web in pine.
  502. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> dglazkov, curl doesn't give you enough control. I think telnet is the only tenable option.
  503. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, wget, dammit
  504. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> Although it's tricky to use for HTTPS.
  505. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> You have to be really good at mental arithmetic.
  506. # [18:56] <dglazkov> AryehGregor: what's HTTPS?
  507. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> dglazkov, that thing that adds extra round-trips to the first page load in exchange for people not being able to play devastating practical jokes on you with Firesheep.
  508. # [18:57] <dglazkov> seems like a lot of pain to avoid being pranked.
  509. # [18:57] <Philip`> It's the thing that triggers all those warnings about invalid certficates that you click "accept" on
  510. # [18:57] <swarren08> sometimes id rather be rick roll'd
  511. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> I know, right? But some people like it.
  512. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> Philip`, or that you click through four different menus that try to confuse and dissuade you before the thing will actually let you view the site, in Firefox's case.
  513. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> But in Chrome I've seen it not give any option to continue at all.
  514. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> That is absolutely unacceptable.
  515. # [18:59] <timeless> oh, sob
  516. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> It was some MS site that had a revoked cert for some reason, but I didn't care in the slightest because the most an attacker could steal was my MS login, which I don't care about.
  517. # [18:59] <timeless> our IE toolbar hasn't been updated since 2008
  518. # [18:59] * AryehGregor stabs "security" zealots
  519. # [19:00] <swarren08> wow 2008?
  520. # [19:00] <timeless> swarren08: i presume it "just works" and doesn't really need maintenance
  521. # [19:00] <zewt> yeah chrome's https handling is beyond unacceptably broken
  522. # [19:00] <timeless> it's an internal tool
  523. # [19:00] <zewt> last i saw, anyway
  524. # [19:00] <swarren08> sounds like a bunch of people i know
  525. # [19:01] <timeless> yeah, the webkit client i use here uses curl
  526. # [19:01] <zewt> firefox's is also unacceptably broken, but not to the degree of actually preventing you from doing things you need to do
  527. # [19:01] <timeless> and the errors i get for web sites are terrible
  528. # [19:01] <zewt> firefox only goes to the point of ensuring every firefox user is trained to click through every security dialog without reading it
  529. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Argh, worst is the OMGWTFBBQ about self-signed certs. Not even a whisper of complaint when you visit a page that does login over HTTP POST, but if you *dare* to try to secure the connection without going through the registrar mafia? RED PAGE.
  530. # [19:01] <timeless> AryehGregor: there's sconnect or something for ssl
  531. # [19:02] <timeless> i've used that as a telnet replacement for https
  532. # [19:02] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@p2020-ipbf4910marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
  533. # [19:02] <zewt> tab: yeah, i've been ranting for a while about the ridiculousness of browsers training people to think of unsigned encryption as *less* secure than plaintext
  534. # [19:02] <zewt> i understand the rationale, but the end result is no less absurd for it
  535. # [19:02] <timeless> zewt: well
  536. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> I don't even understand the rationale.
  537. # [19:03] <timeless> the rationale is:
  538. # [19:03] <timeless> if you normally don't get an error
  539. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> You don't trust the endpoint, but you trust the connection.
  540. # [19:03] <timeless> then when you do get an error, you're probably being attacked
  541. # [19:03] <zewt> the rationale is that you don't want people loading their https://bank.com and having an attacker present the site with a self-signed cert
  542. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> That's better than trusting neither.
  543. # [19:03] <timeless> whereas if you are visiting a site that never pretends to be secure
  544. # [19:03] <timeless> then you're supposed to know that it isn't necessarily trustworthy
  545. # [19:03] <timeless> but you also know that there's no reason to consider today any more or less different from yesterday
  546. # [19:04] <timeless> the big problem is...
  547. # [19:04] <timeless> banks offer http://bank.com
  548. # [19:04] <timeless> and often have login pages on that page
  549. # [19:04] <zewt> the solution, IMO, is/was/should have been to have an shttp:// protocol, which is exactly identical to https but without the certificate check, so loading https URLs can't be compromised in that way, while still allowing people to use encryption without a cert
  550. # [19:04] <timeless> which teach users to enter their credentials *there*!
  551. # [19:05] <timeless> zewt: for what purpose?
  552. # [19:05] <zewt> i've never seen a bank with a login not on https (of course I only use my bank), but my electric or gas company (forget which) has a login on http (with some dumb flash hack to handle the actual encryption)
  553. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, https:// with self-signed cert is, in general, worse than http://.
  554. # [19:05] <zewt> timeless: huh? for the purpose of encrypting :)
  555. # [19:05] <timeless> zewt: try http://www.discovercard.com/
  556. # [19:05] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.252.157) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  557. # [19:05] * AryehGregor digs up rationale
  558. # [19:05] <timeless> there's a login form on that page
  559. # [19:05] <timeless> i've actually done surveys of banks
  560. # [19:05] <timeless> and it varies by size and region
  561. # [19:05] <timeless> but there are definitely plenty of banks w/ login forms on their front page (which is http)
  562. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, http://lwn.net/Articles/413600/
  563. # [19:06] <timeless> and please note that having a phone number or hours/addresses on http is also bad
  564. # [19:06] <zewt> if there was an http* protocol meant for encryption-without-certs, every webserver in the world would ship with a default configuration allowing encryption, and the level of security in the world would be a notch higher
  565. # [19:06] <swarren08> wow... people will do anything to hack you
  566. # [19:06] <timeless> if i'm using an internet cafe in a foreign country
  567. # [19:06] <timeless> i can easily be tricked into going to a fake bank or fake atm
  568. # [19:06] <timeless> i wouldn't know the difference..
  569. # [19:06] * AryehGregor <3 Google for giving his post as the first result for "lwn.net Simetrical self-signed"
  570. # [19:06] <zewt> it would not be a *lot* higher, since it obviously wouldn't protect against MITM, but the world would be substantially less susceptible to passive sniffing
  571. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yes, the confusion angle is the only thing. Presenting the same UI for a self-signed and an EV-signed would be bad.
  572. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> zewt, tcpcrypt.org is a very neat technology.
  573. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> I hope it takes off.
  574. # [19:07] <timeless> passive sniffing is kinda useless as risks go
  575. # [19:07] <timeless> if i'm in an internet cafe
  576. # [19:07] <swarren08> A good example of what you are talking about is Steam
  577. # [19:07] <zewt> spdy is also always encrypted, signed or no
  578. # [19:07] <zewt> iirc
  579. # [19:07] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-jgrrjnckhkruxeym)
  580. # [19:07] <timeless> there's really no way to protect me from a MITM
  581. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> tcpcrypt covers all TCP, though.
  582. # [19:07] <timeless> and that MITM becomes equivalent to passive snooping
  583. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> SPDY is always encrypted because it has to tunnel through HTTP proxies that try to meddle with regular HTTP.
  584. # [19:07] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.252.157)
  585. # [19:07] <zewt> mitm is ... the opposite of passive
  586. # [19:08] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@65.42.208.134) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  587. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> No, MITM can include passive as well as active.
  588. # [19:08] <timeless> you might as well get people to do the right thing and have good certs
  589. # [19:08] <swarren08> People go thru and do a web site dump of the Official site
  590. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> Generally any time you can do passive you can do active, but active is often harder to pull off and/or carries more risk of detection.
  591. # [19:08] <swarren08> and adjust it to the site they own, make own certs and send the links to people
  592. # [19:08] * timeless notes that there are deployed attacks which actually do this
  593. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Thanks for reminding me about tcpcrypt. I meant to install it last time I saw it.
  594. # [19:09] <timeless> they've even been described on krebsonsecurity.com
  595. # [19:09] <swarren08> they are able to take over what they want and also capture the accounts of people
  596. # [19:09] <zewt> active is by nature riskier, which is a deterrant by itself
  597. # [19:09] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@65.42.208.134)
  598. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> tcpcrypt is clever that way: you don't know whether there will be authentication until the encryption is finished. So a MITM has to decide whether to intercept the connection before knowing if they'll be detected. If you have auth layered on top of tcpcrypt or similar, the attacker will intercept it fine, but then the authentication will fail and the attacker will be detected.
  599. # [19:09] * Quits: danj (~danj@s15372200.onlinehome-server.info) (Remote host closed the connection)
  600. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> In principle, if tcpcrypt were deployed, you could do things like expose the client's session id to JavaScript, say.
  601. # [19:10] <timeless> err
  602. # [19:10] <timeless> can't the server expose that already?
  603. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> So the server could send some code with the server's session id somewhere and check it against the client id. The attacker could theoretically rewrite the code to prevent that, but not in general -- it's the halting problem.
  604. # [19:10] <timeless> oh
  605. # [19:10] <timeless> well
  606. # [19:10] <timeless> no
  607. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> So the attacker could have special hacks to rewrite the checks for known apps, but some random webpage that does it in some slightly different way would still be able to throw up a scary error.
  608. # [19:11] <timeless> MITM could pretty trivially include code which tries to capture access to a property
  609. # [19:11] <zewt> AryehGregor: don't know how you mean that MITM can be done passively; the definition of MITM is active, sending packets to one or both parties
  610. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> timeless, you could make the property a non-replaceable global so that nothing can capture access to it.
  611. # [19:11] <zewt> (most often both, hence the term)
  612. # [19:11] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@65.42.208.134) (Client Quit)
  613. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> zewt, it can include interception as well, AFAIK. MITMs can merely eavesdrop.
  614. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I see.
  615. # [19:12] <zewt> eavesdropping isn't MITM, it's sniffing
  616. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> Well, an MITM is perhaps always active to some extent, but not necessarily in a noticeable fashion.
  617. # [19:12] <timeless> AryehGregor: at that point, the attacker will just rewrite all streams looking for the keyword, replace `eval`, and rewrite any instance of `window` to an object which does shadowing
  618. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> A compromised router is a MITM.
  619. # [19:12] <zewt> depends on the particular attack
  620. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> But it might just be sniffing traffic, not doing anything discernibly wrong.
  621. # [19:12] <timeless> i wonder if someone has a toolkit that does that
  622. # [19:12] <zewt> a compromised router is a MITM if you're using it to sit between and manipulate the two endpoints
  623. # [19:13] <zewt> ngrep on a compromised router is not MITM
  624. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> timeless, hmm, I guess. You could make it a magic keyword, but then they could sniff for a keyword.
  625. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> Anyway, it would be a way to catch attackers who aren't careful.
  626. # [19:13] <timeless> yep
  627. # [19:13] <timeless> AryehGregor: the problem is...
  628. # [19:13] <timeless> attackers will share toolkits
  629. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> zewt, definitionally, I disagree, but it's semantics, so whatever.
  630. # [19:13] <timeless> which means the X months it takes to deploy a security feature
  631. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> timeless, sophisticated ones will. Script kiddies will use whatever they happen to get off the shelf, which may or may not be competently written depending on their connections and price range.
  632. # [19:13] <zewt> mitm is a specific term referring to a specific class of attacks
  633. # [19:14] <timeless> will be defeated in X/12 months and then shared
  634. # [19:14] <timeless> it will appear in the script kiddy toolkits in 3/7 * X months
  635. # [19:14] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it's just a speed bump. But it will catch some attacks.
  636. # [19:14] <timeless> it really isn't a useful speed bump
  637. # [19:14] <timeless> and it's somewhat expensive to implement
  638. # [19:14] <AryehGregor> It's basically free to implement, given that tcpcrypt is already being used.
  639. # [19:14] <timeless> cost benefit there is terrible
  640. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> Which is a good idea anyway to stop sniffers.
  641. # [19:16] <timeless> what protects tcpcrypt from a mitm that always claims not to support tcpcrypt?
  642. # [19:16] <timeless> (standard downgrade attack)
  643. # [19:17] * Joins: miketayl_r (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  644. # [19:17] * timeless hunts lunch
  645. # [19:17] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Disconnected by services)
  646. # [19:17] * miketayl_r is now known as miketaylr
  647. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> timeless, such a MITM could also just intercept the connection directly. So there's no added threat surface.
  648. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Either way, it forces them to become an active attacker -- they can't just sniff.
  649. # [19:19] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5e0129ee.bb.sky.com)
  650. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Also, tcpcrypt exposes a very nice, useful primitive (session id) that you can trivially layer authentication on top of.
  651. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> So it would allow a lot of code to be unified that currently has to be redone for every different application-level protocol.
  652. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> Oh hey, go Microsoft
  653. # [19:20] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  654. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> ?
  655. # [19:21] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  656. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> They like DOM Views
  657. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> So that was sarcastic?
  658. # [19:22] * Quits: payman (~payman@pat.se.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  659. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Apologies
  660. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> </sarcasm>
  661. # [19:23] * AryehGregor is never quite sure without context, since MS does occasionally do things surprisingly right
  662. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> They're okay with a notice, though, so I think that's fine.
  663. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> Actually rescinding is going to be a waste of time, and it won't happen if the replacement isn't also a REC.
  664. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> I just notice how much they talked about "stability" in that email, and not "correctness".
  665. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> Well duh
  666. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> Yes, because that's what their corporate customers care about.
  667. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> Standards compliance is an item on a checklist, not something they directly care about for any practical reason.
  668. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> MS cares about the practical reasons, but most of their customers don't.
  669. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> They're the only major browser vendor to actually deal with large corporations to any meaningful extent, remember.
  670. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> (as users of their browsers, that is)
  671. # [19:28] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@109.231.193.164) (Quit: micheil)
  672. # [19:45] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Well, we ship to customers who care about these sorts of things
  673. # [19:45] <swarren08> Who is Mr. Lastweek?
  674. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, yeah, okay, but you clearly aren't as concerned with them as MS.
  675. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith
  676. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> Or so I hear
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  678. # [19:46] <gsnedders> swarren08: That was a big question a few years back. Still unknown, AFIAK.
  679. # [19:46] <swarren08> ah
  680. # [19:46] <swarren08> im reading a book
  681. # [19:46] <swarren08> and its in here
  682. # [19:46] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Well, yeah. Most of our customers care more about CE-HTML and the like than HTML.
  683. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> Which book?
  684. # [19:47] <swarren08> Addison Wesley HTML5 Guidelines for Web Developers
  685. # [19:47] <swarren08> An imaginary character,
  686. # [19:47] <swarren08> Mr. LastWeek, comments on the events with sometimes hefty blog entries at
  687. # [19:47] <swarren08> http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com in reaction to the publicly accessible IRC
  688. # [19:47] <swarren08> protocols at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs
  689. # [19:48] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: And from a more sane POV, things like HbbTV.
  690. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> The IRC protocols?
  691. # [19:48] <swarren08> lol thats what the book says
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  693. # [19:50] <swarren08> Apparently im oblivious to everything... or just didnt know but they are actually working on xhtml2?
  694. # [19:51] <gsnedders> swarren08: They were. It never had much interest from browser vendors, and totally stopped a couple of years back.
  695. # [19:51] <swarren08> ah
  696. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> Well, the WG was disbanded
  697. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> And then continued to publish specs for another year
  698. # [19:51] <swarren08> i looked up the guy who was doing it and it had info on his site about xhtml
  699. # [19:51] <swarren08> xhtml2*
  700. # [19:52] <gesa> xhtml made us all write cleaner code. rip.
  701. # [19:53] <swarren08> did you not like to write cleaner code?
  702. # [19:53] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  703. # [19:53] <gesa> i LOVED writing cleaner code. I'll always write cleaner code because xhtml existed.
  704. # [19:54] <swarren08> i make my coding look nice
  705. # [19:54] <gesa> none of this non-quoted attribute values, unclosed tags nonsense
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  707. # [19:54] <swarren08> i always close my tags
  708. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> Unquoted attributes are the major reason I write my SVG in HTML. ^_^
  709. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> Ugh
  710. # [19:55] <gesa> me too. but future web developers have no reason to anymore.
  711. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> Next you're going to claim you write <br/>
  712. # [19:55] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@207.239.83.130)
  713. # [19:55] <swarren08> i do actually
  714. # [19:55] <gesa> ... me too.
  715. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> And <script/> as well?
  716. # [19:56] <gesa> Though I find I don't use <br /> very often anymore
  717. # [19:56] <gesa> no way.
  718. # [19:56] <gesa> <script></script>
  719. # [19:56] <gesa> <script/> breaks some (most? all?) browsers.
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  721. # [19:56] <Ms2ger> All
  722. # [19:56] <swarren08> lol
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  724. # [19:56] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Surely not <br/>, it has to be <br /> for compatibility
  725. # [19:57] * Ms2ger throws a cake at Philip`
  726. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> And tell me my test updates are correct
  727. # [19:57] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: But don't you care about NN! You insensitive sod!
  728. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> gesa, <script/> breaks all browsers, it's parsed the same as <script>.
  729. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Except if served as XML.
  730. # [19:57] <Philip`> (Also, never forget to comment out your script contents)
  731. # [19:58] <gesa> Yeah. Learned that the hard way in a night of obsessive over the top code cleanup
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  734. # [19:59] <GlitchMr> Browsers don't understand /> in SGML mode. Only while parsing documents as XML. Otherwise, they consider that / is just some random character to ignore.
  735. # [19:59] <TabAtkins> s/SGML/HTML/
  736. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> Nah
  737. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> In SGML mode, the / closes the tag, and the > is part of the text content. Luckily, no one's been an SGML browser for some time.
  738. # [20:00] <GlitchMr> Oh, right. Browsers fail at SHML. They don't know that <br/> in actually <br> and after that &gt; character...
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  740. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> They acknowledge the trailing solidus
  741. # [20:02] <Philip`> TabAtkins: No one except the W3C validator, which will happily parse your document completely differently to any real browser before validating the result
  742. # [20:02] <GlitchMr> I remember <!-- -- >The comment is closed :). Browsers implemented it for some time just because of ACID2...
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  744. # [20:03] <GlitchMr> W3C Validator is lame for me anyways. It doesn't take into account real problems and it blatantly accepts markup like <h1><ins><h2><del><h3></h3></del></h2></ins></h1>.
  745. # [20:04] <GlitchMr> And it's not error in validator :P. HTML shouldn't be parsed using DTD.
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  755. # [20:30] <Hixie> Philip`: in case it comes up again, anne's he one running the splitter for complete.html
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  760. # [20:48] <swarren08> hmmm i apparently could buy an HTML5 tshirt....
  761. # [20:49] <swarren08> How much does the css we use today differ from CSS3
  762. # [20:50] * gsnedders facepalms at the sizes of the HTML5 t-shirts — the XL "body width" is the same size as my entire waist. Woops.
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  764. # [20:53] <swarren08> im glad im not the only one gsnedders
  765. # [20:53] <gsnedders> "Profits from the sale of every HTML5 shirt go directly to the development of HTML5 test suite." — uh, who?
  766. # [20:53] <gsnedders> (And to those worried, don't worry. I've eaten almost 250g of chocolate this afternoon)
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  768. # [20:54] <gesa> gsnedders: Women's XL width is way larger than my entire waist. Humans are varied, that's all.
  769. # [20:54] <swarren08> it goes to W3C
  770. # [20:55] <gsnedders> swarren08: No W3C employee has submitted a single test to the testsuite…
  771. # [20:55] <swarren08> lol
  772. # [20:55] <swarren08> it was a joke
  773. # [20:55] <swarren08> relax
  774. # [20:56] <gsnedders> gesa: And I thought my flatmate was thin…
  775. # [20:58] <gesa> gsnedders: Not thin. Just petite.
  776. # [20:58] <annevk> I wonder, did anyone miss the WHATWG Weekly?
  777. # [20:58] * swarren08 slowly raises hand
  778. # [20:58] <swarren08> ive been stuck in the hospital since last sat for a family member, so ive missed a bunch
  779. # [20:59] <annevk> heh
  780. # [20:59] <gsnedders> gesa: Well, you can still be thin in generic terms while being petite, and hence not thin relative to the rest of you.
  781. # [20:59] <annevk> I mean missed as in "omg why was it not written and published last Monday"
  782. # [20:59] <gesa> annevk: in that case, yes.
  783. # [20:59] <annevk> swarren08, my best to your family member
  784. # [21:00] <gesa> thought i was missing a bigger picture
  785. # [21:00] <swarren08> thanks, we hope she will awake soon
  786. # [21:00] * gsnedders concludes a girls small HTML5 t-shirt would fit him in terms of width, though not be at all long enough
  787. # [21:01] * Philip` guesses the measurements must be in inches, since if they were cm the XL wouldn't quite be wide enough for him
  788. # [21:01] <swarren08> i must agree with that one philip
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  790. # [21:07] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/rev/1a50586be65c
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  792. # [21:07] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Oh, my bad.
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  795. # [21:07] <Ms2ger> That makes one :)
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  818. # [22:44] <Hixie> is there really no spec out there that describes how to parse application/x-www-form-urlencoded data?
  819. # [22:45] <Hixie> hey we didn't register application/x-www-form-urlencoded either
  820. # [22:45] <Hixie> i guess we should do that huh
  821. # [22:46] <gsnedders> Hixie: Not that I could find.
  822. # [22:46] <Hixie> we suck
  823. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> Holy crap.
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  825. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> I can't believe that these things go undefined like that.
  826. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> For decades.
  827. # [22:47] <gsnedders> How many impls are there, though, really?
  828. # [22:47] <Hixie> like six bazillion?
  829. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Every HTTP server?
  830. # [22:48] <Hixie> and every cgi library
  831. # [22:48] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: That's still not a huge number.
  832. # [22:48] <Hixie> and every custom cgi script not based on a library
  833. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Hixie: Does each CGI library implement its own?
  834. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> More impls than there are browsers, by an order of magnitude or two.
  835. # [22:48] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Well, yes.
  836. # [22:48] <Hixie> gsnedders: all the ones i've seen do
  837. # [22:48] <Hixie> i mean it's trivial to implement
  838. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Hixie: Heh.
  839. # [22:48] <Hixie> you just cut on &s and then cut on =s and then expand the %xxs
  840. # [22:48] <gsnedders> PHP does it all internally.
  841. # [22:48] <Hixie> and replace the +s
  842. # [22:49] <Hixie> and guess the encoding somehow
  843. # [22:49] <Hixie> by MAGIC
  844. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Hixie: We managed to do it wrong in one of our systems, which is why I realized there was no spec.
  845. # [22:49] <Hixie> heh
  846. # [22:49] * gsnedders forgets what exactly the bug was
  847. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> We can just define the encoding, hopefully, and shut down one more place where the encoding wars hurt everyone.
  848. # [22:50] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: We can't. No way.
  849. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Damn.
  850. # [22:50] <Hixie> yeah that's a lost battle
  851. # [22:50] <Hixie> _charset_ is the only way out of that one
  852. # [22:50] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: What encoding you want to use depends upon what you expect it will be, which is related to the encoding of the page it is sent frm.
  853. # [22:50] <gsnedders> *from
  854. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> ;_;
  855. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: IIRC we were doing something like map(lambda x: x.split("=", 1), foo.split("&")) and then decoding
  856. # [22:52] <gsnedders> OH, no!
  857. # [22:52] <Hixie> that should work except for +s, no?
  858. # [22:52] <gsnedders> We did the decoding too soon.
  859. # [22:52] <gsnedders> That's what.
  860. # [22:52] <Hixie> ah, yeah
  861. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Oh, heh.
  862. # [22:52] <Hixie> rookie mistake :-P
  863. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> Argh, figuring out what to do in mathematically degenerate cases is annoying.
  864. # [22:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: Sadly not in the code that was originally yours, so I can't blame you :P
  865. # [22:53] <Hixie> woot!
  866. # [22:54] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12819 look right to you?
  867. # [22:54] <Hixie> wow i just mistook a chrome version number for an ip address
  868. # [22:54] <Hixie> that was confusing
  869. # [22:55] <hober> heh
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  871. # [22:57] <Hixie> bbiab
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  873. # [23:00] <gsnedders> Hixie: isindex just gets a single item?
  874. # [23:00] <gsnedders> Just the value?
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  877. # [23:04] <Ms2ger> Hixie, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A...%3Cscript%3E%0Aw%28%22width%22%20in%20document.createElement%28%22input%22%29%29%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
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  881. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> Does Gecko not fire keyup/keydown for things like Ctrl+B, or what?
  882. # [23:08] * AryehGregor can't seem to get it to work
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  884. # [23:09] <smaug____> works fine here
  885. # [23:09] * AryehGregor tries again
  886. # [23:12] <Hixie> gsnedders: isindex is you skip the &-split step and the =-split step and just assign the whole thing to one 'value'
  887. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> I get a keydown for the ctrl, but not the b.
  888. # [23:13] <Hixie> Ms2ger: oh you mean the IDL attributes, ok
  889. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah, that's what I thought.
  890. # [23:13] <Hixie> Ms2ger: interesting
  891. # [23:13] <Hixie> Ms2ger: (your bug was too terse!)
  892. # [23:13] <Ms2ger> Oh, yes, should have said that
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  894. # [23:14] <Hixie> gsnedders: what do you mean about non-ASCII bytes?
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  896. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: If I have a FF byte, what do I do? What happens when I decode?
  897. # [23:15] <gsnedders> (pretend we're UTF-8 here)
  898. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Per HTML5 what is sent should be ASCII. What if it's not?
  899. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see.
  900. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> I was just getting confused.
  901. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Oh, it's sending a capital B for keyCode instead of lowercase.
  902. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Fun.
  903. # [23:16] <Philip`> Some libraries (e.g. CGI in Perl) split on ';' as well as '&' - should specs require/allow that?
  904. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> Don't you love interop?
  905. # [23:17] * AryehGregor grumbles
  906. # [23:17] <smaug____> AryehGregor: what should it do then?
  907. # [23:18] <smaug____> other browsers give the same keyCode
  908. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> Philip`: That's part of the original definition of the encoding. Several libraries expose it as an option.
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  911. # [23:18] <smaug____> er, charcode
  912. # [23:19] * AryehGregor scratches head
  913. # [23:19] <AryehGregor> Now I'm confused.
  914. # [23:19] <smaug____> keypress gives charcode, keydown/up give keycode
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  916. # [23:19] <smaug____> Opera seems to have some strange handling
  917. # [23:19] <AryehGregor> Because I could swear WebKit was giving the keycode for lowercase B before (97?), not uppercase.
  918. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> But my eyes must have been deceiving me.
  919. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  920. # [23:20] <smaug____> keycode 66 for down/up
  921. # [23:20] <smaug____> and charcode 98 for press
  922. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> Right, I'm looking only at down/up.
  923. # [23:21] <Ms2ger> Hixie, should I reopen or will you?
  924. # [23:23] <Hixie> Ms2ger: please do
  925. # [23:23] <Hixie> gsnedders: ah, error handling
  926. # [23:23] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah
  927. # [23:23] <Hixie> gsnedders: dunno
  928. # [23:24] <Hixie> gsnedders: interop isn't a big deal on that matter so maybe i just don't spec it
  929. # [23:25] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  930. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Hixie: Probably good enough to just leave it undefined, on the whole
  931. # [23:26] * Joins: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70)
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  937. # [23:37] * jer|afk is now known as jernoble
  938. # [23:39] * Quits: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: shepazu)
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  941. # [23:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: Pff, r6434! I mean, there's already a SHOULD requirement to solve the halting problem!
  942. # [23:53] * Joins: bckenny (~bckenny@nat/google/x-skusxhjhuiigjcry)
  943. # [23:53] * Quits: bckenny (~bckenny@nat/google/x-skusxhjhuiigjcry) (Remote host closed the connection)
  944. # [23:55] <Hixie> yeah but that one only applies to validators :-P
  945. # [23:55] <Hixie> heycam|away: dude, stop changing the terms you use in webidl :-P
  946. # [23:57] * Joins: thebestsophist (~bernardy@cpe-173-89-41-181.wi.res.rr.com)
  947. # [23:58] <Hixie> is there some list i can subscribe to that e-mails me all changes to webidl?
  948. # [23:58] <Hixie> and dom core for that matter?
  949. # Session Close: Sat Aug 13 00:00:00 2011

The end :)