/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 15 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  21. # [01:14] <AryehGregor> Hixie, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13551 was filed by an implementer -- you really want it assigned to contributor@whatwg.org?
  22. # [01:15] <Hixie> assigning to contributor@whatwg.org just means i think that it would be productive for the "editorial assistants" to look at it first
  23. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> k.
  24. # [01:16] <Hixie> i'll go through them all eventually too
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  27. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, it's *possible* to play a game based on WASD+mouselook without a mouse lock, if the mouse sensitivity isn't really low. You just have to do some 360s every time the mouse gets too close to the edge of the screen.
  28. # [01:23] <zewt> it's ... really not, heh
  29. # [01:23] <zewt> like, sure, you can drive a car that only turns left, but ... not really
  30. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> I didn't say it would be *fun*.
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  32. # [01:30] <Philip`> If you don't want it to be fun, just use the arrow keys for turning (and alt+arrows for strafe) then you don't need mouselook at all
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  115. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> question about the Do Not Track feature/spec, for anybody who knows
  116. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> if I send a DNT: 1 opt-out header to "first-party" site, does that mean it also can't do any "collection, retention, and use of all data related to the request and response"?
  117. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> or does it mean only any third-party sites with embedded content on that page can't do collection, retention, and use of all data related to the request and response?
  118. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> it's not clear from the spec
  119. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mayer-do-not-track-00
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  122. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> the spec says, "In processing a request that includes an OPT-OUT header, a server MUST NOT perform THIRD-PARTY TRACKING"
  123. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> but it doesn't say the first-party site can't do "tracking" (= collection, retention, and use of all data related to the request and response)
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  125. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> and given a request with a DNT: 1 header, how does a site know whether it's a third-party site or a first-party site?
  126. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> or does the UA only send the DNT: 1 header to third-party sites but not not first-party sites?
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  134. # [09:55] <zcorpan> Hixie: you recall why websocket has sec-websocket-origin rather than just origin?
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  138. # [10:04] <jgraham> zcorpan: Didn't it have something to do with XHR originally
  139. # [10:04] <jgraham> Then I have a feeling that the real reason got removed by some other change and the sec-websocket- bit got cargo culted in
  140. # [10:04] <jgraham> Or stayed in for cargo-cult reasons
  141. # [10:06] <zcorpan> maybe websocket's origin header predated the other origin header
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  150. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: do you know if Alex Fowler is around on IRC much?
  151. # [10:23] <Ms2ger> Who's that?
  152. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> he's involved with the Do Not Track feature
  153. # [10:24] <jgraham> Ms2ger: What code did you want to share between the testsuites?
  154. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, not following that
  155. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> ok
  156. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> jgraham, the DOMTokenList reflection stuff
  157. # [10:26] <jgraham> I guess the idea is that one could implement one feature without the other
  158. # [10:27] <jgraham> (I am not really opposed to sharing code, but can imagine more fun things to spend time on)
  159. # [10:27] <Ms2ger> I just want to have a shared testDOMTokenListReflectionStuff(element, attribute) somewhere
  160. # [10:31] <annevk> https://rniwa.com/2011-08-14/apple-style-span-is-gone/ is nice
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  162. # [10:50] <annevk> making sense of bugs Leif files is hard
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  167. # [10:59] <zcorpan> heh, the "IDL" labels look different in opera, firefox and chrome
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  171. # [11:04] <annevk> I'm trying to come up with something to write for the WHATWG Weekly but nothing really comes to mind
  172. # [11:04] <annevk> end of Last Call, over a hundred mostly editorial and minor technical fixes were made to HTML, and some attempt at getting input on HTML.next
  173. # [11:04] <annevk> that's one sentence...
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  177. # [11:10] <zcorpan> if nothing much has happened, that's ok to write in a weekly report :)
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  179. # [11:15] <Ms2ger> Some discussion about the organization of DOM specs
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  182. # [11:18] <annevk> I wouldn't really call that discussion :(
  183. # [11:19] <annevk> Microsoft does not participate and objects when publishing; sucks
  184. # [11:21] <webben> annevk: what did they object to publishing?
  185. # [11:21] <annevk> DOM Core
  186. # [11:22] <annevk> and then when I make a suggestion they do not answer
  187. # [11:22] <annevk> further slowing progress
  188. # [11:27] <annevk> put that on the record: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JulSep/0869.html
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  190. # [11:35] <annevk> smaug____, I was wondering, do you agree with all the DOM 3 Events stuff?
  191. # [11:35] <annevk> smaug____, because some of those replies to Last Call comments are rather, well, odd
  192. # [11:35] <smaug____> which one in particularly
  193. # [11:35] <annevk> e.g. on DOM features
  194. # [11:36] <smaug____> "odd" replies are the norm in standardization, apparently :)
  195. # [11:36] <annevk> or changing scroll to a UIEvent
  196. # [11:36] <annevk> which contradicts e.g. CSSOM View
  197. # [11:36] <annevk> and implementations
  198. # [11:38] <annevk> smaug____, so you support the decisions?
  199. # [11:38] <smaug____> Let's say so that I'm ok with the decisions
  200. # [11:39] <annevk> wow
  201. # [11:39] <smaug____> how does changing scroll to UIEvent contradicts with CSSOM ?
  202. # [11:41] <annevk> it says to use Event
  203. # [11:41] <annevk> but that event overview is meaningless anyway
  204. # [11:41] <annevk> what matters is what interface is used when dispatching
  205. # [11:42] <annevk> the way events are defined in DOM Level 3 Events is rather laughable compared to how dispatching events is defined in other specifications
  206. # [11:42] <smaug____> (of topic, HTML spec and Web DOM code contradict with implementations quite often )
  207. # [11:42] <annevk> usually with good reason
  208. # [11:43] <annevk> not "to make this table look pretty"
  209. # [11:43] <smaug____> not very often with good reason
  210. # [11:43] <smaug____> but I'm ok change scroll back to event
  211. # [11:43] <smaug____> I just don't really care whether it is UIEvent or Event
  212. # [11:43] <annevk> well you disagree with the reason sometimes
  213. # [11:44] <annevk> but making it UIEvent because the spec's organization is cleaner then is nonsense
  214. # [11:44] <annevk> than*
  215. # [11:45] <smaug____> that wasn't shepazu's reason to make scroll UIEvent
  216. # [11:48] <smaug____> I might even like if most of the event in browsing context were UIEvents
  217. # [11:49] <smaug____> since those give easy access to window
  218. # [11:49] <smaug____> s/event/events/
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  221. # [11:59] <annevk> smaug____, where does DOM Core contradict specifications btw without good reason?
  222. # [11:59] <annevk> smaug____, euh, implementations
  223. # [11:59] <jgraham> annevk: (I assume that depends what you mean by "good reasons" e.g. removing attr nodes might not be considered "good reasons")
  224. # [11:59] <annevk> smaug____, cause I thought people were on board with Node : EventTarget, Attr no longer being a node, etc.
  225. # [12:00] <smaug____> those are ok.
  226. # [12:01] <smaug____> ÍMO
  227. # [12:01] <smaug____> CDATA removal probably isn't
  228. # [12:02] <smaug____> at least there hasn't been any good proposal how to fix the problems removing CDATA causes
  229. # [12:02] <smaug____> (related to serialization )
  230. # [12:04] <smaug____> oh, hmm, normalize() is removed
  231. # [12:04] <smaug____> why
  232. # [12:04] <annevk> sicking has a proposal and there's a patch implementing CDATA removal in Gecko
  233. # [12:05] <smaug____> I know Ms2ger has the patch to remove CDATA from Gecko
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  236. # [12:10] <annevk> smaug____, presumably normalize() is either not implemented widely or lacks good use cases
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  238. # [12:23] <annevk> wait
  239. # [12:23] <annevk> if CR LF is always normalized on submitting
  240. # [12:23] <annevk> text/plain can be parsed reliably
  241. # [12:23] <annevk> with respect to form submission
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  244. # [12:36] <zcorpan> foolip: yt? you have any opinion about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12405 ?
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  253. # [13:27] <rabbi1> Can you help? i am trying to achieve this http://imagebin.org/167884 in a <ul> the data in green background appear when the user logs in. All is part of a <ul>. <li> has contents for user logged in and user logged out......
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  259. # [14:07] <annevk> MikeSmith, it seems that "amir arsalan <m_a_s_7@yahoo.com>" is spamming Bugzilla somehow
  260. # [14:07] <annevk> MikeSmith, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Aug/1706.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Aug/1707.html
  261. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> thanks
  262. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> trying to delete his account now
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  264. # [14:12] <annevk> Google acquires hardware part of Motorola: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/supercharging-android-google-to-acquire.html
  265. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> annevk: disabled his account
  266. # [14:21] <foolip> zcorpan, it seems that if we want people to mix native controls with custom subtitles, etc, then we need to expose events for them showing/hiding together with the size
  267. # [14:22] <foolip> or we could abuse the multitrack stuff to "sync" a src-less <video controls> with the <video> elements that have the actual video streams
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  269. # [14:23] <zcorpan> events could work
  270. # [14:24] <zcorpan> i don't follow what you mean with the multitrack stuff
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  289. # [15:07] <annevk> after publishing I realize I should have mentioned the UndoManager stuff
  290. # [15:07] <annevk> noted for next week
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  312. # [15:42] <jarek> Hi
  313. # [15:43] <jarek> what's the definition of "visual", "tactile" and "bitmap" media type as used in http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/ ?
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  316. # [15:44] <jarek> does "visual" include "tty"? Or does "bitmap" include print?
  317. # [15:45] <annevk> no
  318. # [15:45] <annevk> types are exclusive
  319. # [15:45] <annevk> see CSS 2.1
  320. # [15:45] <jarek> ahh... right...
  321. # [15:46] <jarek> I just googled the terms and found CSS2.1 specs: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/media.html
  322. # [15:46] <annevk> media queries 3.1 will prolly fix this
  323. # [15:46] <annevk> well fix in the sense that it will define both media types and media features and not defer to CSS 2.1 for the former
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  325. # [15:48] <jarek> why "resolution" property accepts only dpi and dpcm units?
  326. # [15:48] <jarek> why not ppi?
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  328. # [15:48] <annevk> what's the difference with dpi?
  329. # [15:48] <jarek> so for screen media type, dpi is treated like ppi?
  330. # [15:49] <jarek> I thought that DPI should be only used for printed media, where you have actual dots
  331. # [15:50] <annevk> I think so
  332. # [15:50] <annevk> maybe suggest on www-style that it is clarified
  333. # [15:50] <annevk> although I'm the editor I don't really know much about these units
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  336. # [15:58] <jarek> CSS3 media queries specification says that resolution may accept only dpi and dpcm units and that resolution property applies to bitmap media types
  337. # [15:58] <jarek> now CSS2 specs defines bitmap media types as:
  338. # [15:59] <jarek> print, projection, screen and tv
  339. # [15:59] <jarek> I guess this means that DPI should be treated as PPI
  340. # [16:00] <jarek> at least on screen
  341. # [16:00] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dots_per_inch#Computer_monitor_DPI_standards
  342. # [16:02] <annevk> yay, WHATWG Blog has >6000 subscribers per Google Reader
  343. # [16:02] <jarek> now I'm confused, how windows can <<set default display "DPI" to 96 PPI>>? Isn't this value depended on monitor size and resolution?
  344. # [16:02] <benjoffe_> hmm didn't know there's a blog, make that 6001
  345. # [16:03] <benjoffe_> well, >6001
  346. # [16:05] <Philip`> jarek: They're independent of physical inches
  347. # [16:06] <benjoffe_> jarek: I'm pretty sure that's due to a lack of monitor dpi api's
  348. # [16:06] <annevk> AryehGregor, there were several comments on your blog post that did not get approved thus far
  349. # [16:06] <annevk> AryehGregor, I approved them
  350. # [16:06] <jarek> so there are actually three units: DPI, logical PPI and physical PPI?
  351. # [16:07] <jarek> nevermind, this thing makes no sense
  352. # [16:08] <jarek> I will just hard-code in my code that PPI equals DPI, hopefully no one will notice :P
  353. # [16:09] <Philip`> There's the number of RGB cells per inch on your LCD screen, and the number of pixels of data that the computer sends to the display per cell (hence per inch), and the number of pixels of data that the computer uses to represent objects measured in inches (or in fractions of inches, e.g. points)
  354. # [16:10] <Philip`> plus any scaling factors the software wants to add
  355. # [16:11] <Philip`> Also, the length of an inch will change if you travel at relativistic speeds
  356. # [16:11] <Philip`> So it's quite hard to be consistent about measurements
  357. # [16:12] <jarek> Philip`: if iPad's specification says that it has 132 PPI screen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_displays_by_pixel_density), how do I target this or any higher resolution with media queries?
  358. # [16:13] <jarek> will this work?
  359. # [16:13] <jarek> "@media screen and (min-resolution: 132dpi)"
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  362. # [16:13] <Philip`> Haven't got a clue
  363. # [16:13] <benjoffe_> jarek: why don't you just test against it? Do you have an ipad?
  364. # [16:14] <jarek> benjoffe_: no, it's overpriced
  365. # [16:14] <jgraham> (only the length of an inch in a different frame of reference. So not really a problem if you are looking at your computer in a spaceship travelling at 0.98c, but perhaps worth thinking about if you are building an intergalactic Oxford Circus and want the adverts to work for passers by)
  366. # [16:14] <Philip`> Seems complex enough that the only reliable method is to test it (or copy from someone who's tested it)
  367. # [16:14] <zewt> vmware + osx + ios emulator
  368. # [16:14] <jarek> but I guess that this will be the only reliable way to verify it
  369. # [16:14] <benjoffe_> jarek: do you have xcode? the ipad simulator is available for $5, or free if you have lion
  370. # [16:14] <benjoffe_> (requires osx)
  371. # [16:15] <zewt> haha what, it was free when i downloaded it
  372. # [16:15] <Philip`> jgraham: Might still be a problem if your spaceship is falling into a small black hole at 0.98c
  373. # [16:15] <Philip`> since your monitor may accelerate faster than you
  374. # [16:16] <benjoffe_> zewt: it's free if you have a dev lincese which costs $99 per year
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  377. # [16:16] <jarek> great, I have the developer license
  378. # [16:16] <jgraham> Yes, I was only really thinking of special relativity. It's always easier to pretend gravity doesn't exist
  379. # [16:16] <zewt> i don't, and i'm pretty sure i just downloaded it from apple
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  382. # [16:16] <jarek> but I can't find it in dev section, do I need to participate in iPhone developer program? I'm currently signed up for Mac dev program
  383. # [16:17] <benjoffe_> it's available for me as an ipohne dev, not sure about the mac dev program
  384. # [16:17] * Joins: xtoph (~xtoph@213.47.185.206)
  385. # [16:17] <benjoffe_> i thought it would have been, considering xcode is used for mac dev too
  386. # [16:19] <Philip`> Running an iPad simulator on a desktop PC doesn't sound ideal if you're trying to figure out whether the real physical display resolution has an effect on the browser
  387. # [16:19] <zewt> it should be the same
  388. # [16:20] <benjoffe_> yes I would be quite surprised if there was a difference there
  389. # [16:20] <Philip`> Either the browser ignores the system, or the system lies to the browser, and the latter case wouldn't inspire much confidence that things aren't lying in other ways too
  390. # [16:21] <benjoffe_> heck, i have an ipad simulator, maybe i'll go check
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  392. # [16:21] <zewt> what?
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  394. # [16:23] <benjoffe_> hmm it keeps crashing, shouldn't have installed the beta.. :/
  395. # [16:23] <zewt> better than even odds it just lies about dpi in the same way as every other browser...
  396. # [16:24] <jarek> will I get iPhone and iPad emulator if I buy XCode from App Store?
  397. # [16:25] <benjoffe_> jarek: yes, it's part of the bundle
  398. # [16:25] <zewt> there's just one with a menu option to change modes
  399. # [16:25] <jarek> the version of XCode that I downloaded from Mac Dev Program does not ship with any emulators
  400. # [16:25] <benjoffe_> jarek: better off just buying lion imo though, $25 more
  401. # [16:25] <benjoffe_> jarek: are you sure? it's not easy to find
  402. # [16:26] <jarek> benjoffe_: I already have lion, it did not ship with XCode
  403. # [16:26] <benjoffe_> jarek: oh, if you have lion you can download xcode from the mac app store for free
  404. # [16:27] * Philip` wonders what's the point of charging $5 for development tools, since surely it can't provide any non-trivial amount of revenue
  405. # [16:28] <benjoffe_> Philip`: I think it's more about getting people to attach their credit card to the store in the hope they buy other items
  406. # [16:29] <jarek> ahh... I have already iOS simulator installed, I just had to create new iOS project
  407. # [16:30] <benjoffe_> jarek: you can also launch the simulator directly if you only want to test websites, just make a shortcut, it's in a silly location like /Developer/Platforms/... (instead of the sane location of ~/Applications)
  408. # [16:30] <jgraham> Oh, I thought it was so that the platform wasn't tainted with poor users
  409. # [16:32] * Joins: timeless (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless)
  410. # [16:33] <timeless> :(, my g+ account was suspended
  411. # [16:33] <timeless> it seems that the fact that i've been using `timeless` as my name for more than half my life (and my entire professional carrer) including IRL wasn't expected behavior
  412. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> Myself, I didn't try
  413. # [16:34] <zewt> it's pretty ironic that google said that privacy is a priorty on g+, then immediately violates people's privacy by trying to force them to reveal their name
  414. # [16:34] <zewt> "well that was quick"
  415. # [16:34] <timeless> they said privacy was a priority?
  416. # [16:35] <zewt> everyone says that
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  420. # [16:41] <jarek> it looks like iPad does not support resolution media query at all
  421. # [16:41] <timeless> those are silly anyway :)
  422. # [16:42] <Ms2ger> iPads?
  423. # [16:42] <jarek> but there is "-webkit-device-pixel-ratio" media query, is it the same thing?
  424. # [16:43] <benjoffe_> jarek: no, that's the number of physical pixels per css pixel
  425. # [16:43] <benjoffe_> which for ipad/iphone3 is 1, for iphone4 is 2
  426. # [16:45] <timeless> jarek: what would you do w/ a resolution media query
  427. # [16:46] <timeless> other than poorly support every device you've never met
  428. # [16:46] * timeless has only recently found one site which didn't suck wrt discrimination
  429. # [16:46] <zewt> cheers to misapplication of the word "discrimination"
  430. # [16:47] <timeless> (it was Fandango fwiw, they let me choose Mobile, BB app, or Normal)
  431. # [16:47] <timeless> zewt: you don't think that a service which forces users to get subpar content just because it thinks they want it is discriminating against those users?
  432. # [16:47] <jarek> timeless: well, I expect resolution media query to be widely supported in the near future, that's why I would like to implement it in my app sooner than later
  433. # [16:48] <zewt> no, i think that's using a loaded word to make something sound worse than it is
  434. # [16:48] <timeless> it's pretty bad
  435. # [16:48] <timeless> if i'm not allowed to participate in something
  436. # [16:48] <timeless> then how is that not discrimination?
  437. # [16:49] <Philip`> It seems like the usual attitude is "I want my page to do something special on iPhones, how do I write a media query to target iPhones?", which is effectively an obfuscated form of browser sniffing
  438. # [16:49] <timeless> further, segregated busing in some cases still allowed you to ride the same buses
  439. # [16:49] <timeless> you just got stuck in the back
  440. # [16:49] <timeless> getting second or third class service on a bus was still service
  441. # [16:49] <zewt> jarek: does anything in media queries account for the fact that the font and layout size you want depends on the device, and not soley the dpi?
  442. # [16:49] <timeless> that's what we're getting on the internet
  443. # [16:50] <timeless> that sure sounds like discrimination to me
  444. # [16:50] <timeless> Philip`: indeed
  445. # [16:50] <zewt> eg. a phone is typically much higher resolution than a desktop monitor, much smaller, and viewed much closer
  446. # [16:50] <zewt> the resolution is only part of the story
  447. # [16:50] <timeless> anyway, as dbaron recently pointed out on www-style (?)
  448. # [16:50] <Philip`> (Have any browsers started lying to media queries yet, in order to receive iPhone-targeted content?)
  449. # [16:51] <timeless> it's easy to get media queries wrong when you reach boundary conditions
  450. # [16:51] <timeless> Philip`: not sure about media queries
  451. # [16:51] <timeless> but i know that browsers have lied to receive iPhone content in other cases/ways
  452. # [16:51] <timeless> and i certainly expect it to happen soon enough
  453. # [16:51] <timeless> ..
  454. # [16:52] <timeless> zewt: so, which part of my logic is flawed which makes my use of the word offensive to you?
  455. # [16:52] <zewt> <timeless> other than poorly support every device you've never met <- you called that discrimination, when it's the opposite of discrimination: behaving generically (even if not always usefully)
  456. # [16:53] <timeless> oh
  457. # [16:53] <timeless> they don't do that
  458. # [16:53] <timeless> they don't behave generically
  459. # [16:53] <zewt> that's what i was responding to
  460. # [16:53] <timeless> they either give out good content or crap
  461. # [16:53] <timeless> and you can only get good content if you pay the <iPhone-x> fee
  462. # [16:54] <timeless> `We only allow whites to sit in the front of buses, anyone who we've never met can since in the back`
  463. # [16:56] <Philip`> There must be a better of solving the browser-sniffing problem (since clearly people often want to do that rather than querying capabilities) - given N browser/device combinations, authors want to select some subset, then new browsers/devices developed afterwards want to insert themselves into some selection of subsets (while still being uniquely identifiable themselves by later authors)
  464. # [16:57] <Philip`> without needing identifiers that perpetually grow in length (like UA strings)
  465. # [16:57] <timeless> Philip`: generally speaking `let the user pick` works well for me
  466. # [16:57] <timeless> it certainly makes me happy
  467. # [16:57] <Philip`> There must be some kind of maths that would support that sort of subsetting
  468. # [16:57] <timeless> have you used any of the ClearType configurator?
  469. # [16:57] <timeless> s/tor/tors/
  470. # [16:57] <timeless> (subpixel-antialiasing)
  471. # [16:58] <timeless> you show the user a couple of pictures and let them choose the one they like
  472. # [16:58] <Philip`> The thing that asks "which of these three samples looks best"?
  473. # [16:58] <timeless> yeah
  474. # [16:58] <zewt> i don't want to undergo an eye exam every time i go to a new site, heh
  475. # [16:58] <timeless> i'm willing to do it
  476. # [16:58] <timeless> i'd certainly be happy to have a button at the bottom of each site which lets me undergo such an exam
  477. # [16:59] <zewt> "ask the user" is always a useful fallback but should always be a fallback
  478. # [16:59] <timeless> it's fine w/ me for sites to guess wrong as long as they let me choose
  479. # [16:59] <timeless> but most of the sites i see don't do that
  480. # [16:59] <timeless> my favorite is the *idiotic* news sites which when i am sent directly to an article
  481. # [16:59] <timeless> ... redirect me to the front of their mobile site
  482. # [16:59] <timeless> because *obviously* i didn't want to read the article i visited!
  483. # [17:01] <zewt> heh
  484. # [17:01] <zewt> generally if i click a link and it doesn't go to what i clicked, i just leave
  485. # [17:02] <zewt> most commonly sites that go "well, you clicked on something explicitly, but we're going to ignore you and show you an ad/ask you to sign up/ask you to do the raindance/whatever first"
  486. # [17:02] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  487. # [17:02] <timeless> i need to get google to let me say `don't ever show content from this service again`
  488. # [17:03] <timeless> i think it's actually possible these days
  489. # [17:03] <timeless> but ...
  490. # [17:03] <zewt> it often will show it in searches, but not always (seemingly at random)
  491. # [17:03] <timeless> yeah, sadly i use google news
  492. # [17:04] <timeless> i think for that i need to use the special configurator box or the impossible to use on my touch-based-device heisendropdown
  493. # [17:04] <zewt> i couldn't stand google news, because it seemed to refresh itself automatically all the time, so it always showed up highlighted in firefox as a "new tab"
  494. # [17:04] <timeless> (which insists on not being clickable)
  495. # [17:04] <timeless> hrm
  496. # [17:04] <timeless> it does refresh automatically
  497. # [17:04] <timeless> but you must be using some extension because firefox doesn't do that to me
  498. # [17:04] <zewt> i was
  499. # [17:04] <zewt> i'm not right now since i stopped using tabmixplus, but it's very useful
  500. # [17:05] <zewt> pages should never auto-refresh, that's just obnoxious
  501. # [17:05] <timeless> you don't want gmail to autorefresh?
  502. # [17:06] <timeless> hrm, you clearly don't use web-irc
  503. # [17:06] <zewt> that's ajax updating, it doesn't refresh the entire page
  504. # [17:06] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3)
  505. # [17:06] <timeless> tomato tomato?
  506. # [17:06] <zewt> which is what gnews seemed to do, at least at the time
  507. # [17:06] <zewt> ... no?
  508. # [17:07] <zewt> reloading the entire page is far different than a lightweight ajax update
  509. # [17:07] <timeless> how?
  510. # [17:07] <timeless> reloading the entire page could mean you could retrieve old versions from cache
  511. # [17:08] <timeless> (which can be useful)
  512. # [17:08] <zewt> how? it's sort of the ... point of ajax, heh
  513. # [17:08] <zewt> (only in part, of course)
  514. # [17:08] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-132-33.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  515. # [17:08] <timeless> if 99% of a page is content
  516. # [17:09] * Quits: rtuin (~rtuin@dsl-087-195-129-241.solcon.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  517. # [17:09] <timeless> then i'm not quite sure i'd buy that using ajax would actually mean much less load than a traditional page load
  518. # [17:09] <zewt> then you can update the content unintrusively
  519. # [17:09] <zewt> eg. greader
  520. # [17:12] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  521. # [17:14] <annevk> volkmar, if you specify trim on password, I don't really see why it shouldn't trim
  522. # [17:14] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: Leaving)
  523. # [17:15] <timeless> annevk: why would someone trim a password?
  524. # [17:18] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-76-122-148-63.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
  525. # [17:22] <annevk> to make copy and paste work better
  526. # [17:22] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-25-209-167.dynamic.hinet.net)
  527. # [17:22] <annevk> if you don't allow spaces anyway
  528. # [17:22] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3) (Quit: hij1nx)
  529. # [17:22] <volkmar> annevk: i don't think we should allow trimming passwords, that's really dangerous
  530. # [17:23] <annevk> dangerous?
  531. # [17:23] <benjoffe_> google strips whitespace from passwords
  532. # [17:25] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@109.231.193.164) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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  534. # [17:28] <volkmar> annevk: if I type " foobar " in a password field and they I want to login and I can't...
  535. # [17:28] * Quits: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  536. # [17:28] <volkmar> I'm afraid it could be used without really realizing some side effects
  537. # [17:29] <annevk> how could you register such a password to begin with if they trim consistently and do not allow whitespace?
  538. # [17:30] <zewt> would seem like a very arbitrary special case to not support it
  539. # [17:30] <annevk> <input trim> UI could just mean you cannot type spaces at the beginning and end of your input
  540. # [17:30] <jgraham> annevk: My concern might be the *if*
  541. # [17:31] <annevk> jgraham, then they would have problems with their JavaScript-based solution as well
  542. # [17:31] <annevk> or with any restrictions on password for that matter, which certainly are around
  543. # [17:31] <Philip`> If you want to support accidental whitespace included around passwords, it'd be just as easy to do the trimming on the server (and then you could check both the trimmed and untrimmed passwords, in case the spaces really are part of the password)
  544. # [17:31] <zewt> conversely (though this is all very contrived and I don't see either ever happening in reality) someone might have their site trim spaces when storing a password, and use <input trim> to trim when entering, and not realize the *lack* of side effects due to arbitrary special cases
  545. # [17:33] <volkmar> annevk: in general, altering the passwords value seems a wrong idea to me
  546. # [17:33] * Quits: hta (~hta@62-20-124-50.customer.telia.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  547. # [17:34] <timeless> yeah, any sanitization really needs to be enforced server side
  548. # [17:35] <timeless> not doing that is just plain stupid
  549. # [17:35] <timeless> zewt: fwiw...
  550. # [17:35] <timeless> i think it was canada post
  551. # [17:35] <timeless> but one of the sites was very anal about its login form `do not remember password`
  552. # [17:35] <zewt> well, doing trimming client-side can make it clearer that it's happening (though in practice it probably doesn't matter whether the user is aware of it or not, in the case of passwords)
  553. # [17:35] <timeless> the reset account password form was *not* anal
  554. # [17:35] <timeless> so you could remember the password there...
  555. # [17:36] <timeless> so... yes... it's trivially to be stupid and inconsistent!
  556. # [17:36] <timeless> s/ly//
  557. # [17:36] <timeless> yeah, it absolutely doesn't matter to users what you do to the password
  558. # [17:36] <zewt> quasirelatedly, we need a real password-storage API
  559. # [17:37] <timeless> they don't need to know that you're storing a sha256 hash instead of the actual password
  560. # [17:37] <zewt> annoying how so many sites break or semi-break browser password storage
  561. # [17:37] <timeless> how would a password-storage api help?
  562. # [17:37] <zewt> firefox insists on remembering my old bugzilla password
  563. # [17:37] <timeless> sites would just demand to disable it, or break it, or flood it with crap
  564. # [17:37] <zewt> well, there are two problems, i think: remembering passwords from login forms, and ajax logins
  565. # [17:38] <zewt> the former is what usually works, but sometimes does not; don't know why in the particular cases, but it'd be nice for that to be more reliable
  566. # [17:38] <zewt> the latter almost never works; it would be nice if it could
  567. # [17:38] <timeless> the former doesn't work when sites actively try to break it
  568. # [17:38] <timeless> the easiest way is to add the attribute that says `please break password manager`
  569. # [17:38] <zewt> i rarely see that, usually it's just unawareness of it
  570. # [17:39] <zewt> as far as i'm concerned sites should never have the ability to do that
  571. # [17:39] <timeless> the second easiest way is to not have a <form> containing the password field
  572. # [17:39] <timeless> (and then use js to shift it into the form/submission)
  573. # [17:39] <zewt> google passwords are regularly out of date for me, too
  574. # [17:39] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@cl-86-125-162-112.cablelink.mures.rdsnet.ro) (Remote host closed the connection)
  575. # [17:39] <timeless> odd, i've never hit that problem
  576. # [17:40] <zewt> it just never offers to store the newly-entered password
  577. # [17:40] <zewt> but google is weird and it doesn't happen everywhere
  578. # [17:40] <timeless> i'm pretty sure firefox has offered to update my password for google
  579. # [17:40] * timeless will have to check sometime
  580. # [17:41] <zewt> gmail fills in the password fine, for example, but if i open gapps management, that one's wrong
  581. # [17:42] <timeless> you know you can `easily` `fix` it by opening the password list and deleting the one for the gapps site
  582. # [17:42] <timeless> (ideally you'd be able to use Larry to fix it, but he never grew that feature)
  583. # [17:42] <zewt> anyway, it would be nice for ajaxy logins to have the ability to integrate with password management; right now they don't at all
  584. # [17:42] <timeless> well
  585. # [17:42] <timeless> all they have to do is use <form> <input> <input type=password>
  586. # [17:43] <timeless> as long as they have a handler on the <form> to trap onsubmit and send it where they need
  587. # [17:43] <timeless> they can absolutely integrate with password management
  588. # [17:43] <zewt> but if the form is never actually submitted as a form, firefox will never offer to store it
  589. # [17:43] <timeless> you sure?
  590. # [17:43] <zewt> how would it know?
  591. # [17:44] <zewt> ajax logins typically cancel form submission entirely (if form submit happens at all), so it can do it some other way
  592. # [17:44] <benjoffe_> reddit seems to do login async and has never had problems remembering my login details
  593. # [17:44] <benjoffe_> on chrome
  594. # [17:45] <zewt> don't know what reddit does
  595. # [17:45] <timeless> data:text/html,<form action="data:text/plain," onsubmit="alert(1); return false"><input id=name><input id=pass type=password><input type=submit>
  596. # [17:45] <timeless> isn't working 100%, but it's definitely asking to remember my password
  597. # [17:46] <zewt> alert(1) in an event handler is probably going to do weird things
  598. # [17:46] <timeless> although, perhaps noscript is suppressing js entirely :)
  599. # [17:46] <zewt> data:text/html,<form action="data:text/plain," onsubmit="console.log('xxx'); return false"><input id=name><input id=pass type=password><input type=submit>
  600. # [17:47] <zewt> doesn't prompt
  601. # [17:47] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@host86-133-11-23.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  602. # [17:47] <zewt> (for me, in ff6)
  603. # [17:47] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@host86-133-11-23.range86-133.btcentralplus.com) (Client Quit)
  604. # [17:47] <timeless> data:text/html,<form action="data:text/plain," onsubmit="return false"><input id=name><input id=pass type=password><input type=submit>
  605. # [17:47] <zewt> it shouldn't--the form submission was cancelled, after all, why would it?
  606. # [17:47] <timeless> prompts for me in Nightly (different profile, no noscript)
  607. # [17:47] * timeless shrugs
  608. # [17:47] <timeless> it is here
  609. # [17:48] <benjoffe_> why are you setting 'id' on the form inputs? Should be name
  610. # [17:48] <timeless> what version of firefox are you using?
  611. # [17:48] <timeless> benjoffe_: because i can :)
  612. # [17:48] <zewt> as far as firefox can tell the submission was aborted, it'd be strange for it to offer to remember the password at that point
  613. # [17:48] <timeless> fwiw i only have add-on compatibility reporter and https-everywhere
  614. # [17:48] <benjoffe_> timeless: forms remember and post the 'name' attribute, if you want to play nice with password managers use it
  615. # [17:48] <timeless> benjoffe_: my point is that even this contrived thing *does* play nicely with password managers
  616. # [17:49] <timeless> at least, it does w/ my Nighty
  617. # [17:49] <timeless> s/y$/ly/
  618. # [17:49] * timeless wants to know why it isn't w/ zewt 's
  619. # [17:49] <benjoffe_> that's surprising, they must be getting better
  620. # [17:49] <timeless> zewt: firefox --no-remote -P
  621. # [17:49] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  622. # [17:49] <zewt> i'm suggesting that offering to remember the password in the above code is wrong
  623. # [17:49] <timeless> well, it is remembering it
  624. # [17:49] <timeless> and remember, the offer isn't a modal dialog
  625. # [17:49] <timeless> so the user can safely ignore it
  626. # [17:50] <timeless> or say `why thank you for offering`
  627. # [17:50] <timeless> heh
  628. # [17:50] <timeless> Error: uncaught exception: [Exception... "'Can't add a login with a null or empty hostname.' when calling method: [nsILoginManager::addLogin]" nsresult: "0x8057001e (NS_ERROR_XPC_JS_THREW_STRING)" location: "JS frame :: resource:///components/nsLoginManagerPrompter.js :: <TOP_LEVEL> :: line 853" data: no]
  629. # [17:50] <zewt> heh i cringe every time i see a prompt that says "no thanks" "yes please"
  630. # [17:50] <timeless> ok, well, i should say `it mostly works`
  631. # [17:51] <zewt> software forcibly injecting politeness into the user
  632. # [17:51] <timeless> since apparently the password manager's store and the ui don't agree on when to make an offer
  633. # [17:51] <timeless> which is partially unfortunate
  634. # [17:51] <zewt> that just looks like it doesn't care for data:
  635. # [17:51] <timeless> that's right
  636. # [17:51] <zewt> which wouldn't be surprising
  637. # [17:52] <timeless> fwiw, it's the origin data and not the destination data
  638. # [17:52] <timeless> (changing the action to http didn't resolve it)
  639. # [17:52] * Quits: xtoph (~xtoph@213.47.185.206)
  640. # [17:53] <zewt> makes sense
  641. # [17:53] * timeless goes to watch a tech talk
  642. # [17:53] <timeless> anyway, the point is that ajax should work
  643. # [17:53] <timeless> unless you *try* to break password managers
  644. # [17:53] <timeless> which sites generally do
  645. # [17:53] <timeless> but that's because sites are evil
  646. # [17:53] <zewt> RIGHT CLICK IS NOT SUPPORTED
  647. # [17:53] <timeless> it isn't because it's hard to support
  648. # [17:53] * timeless chuckles
  649. # [17:53] <timeless> yeah, tell that to my one button mac mouse :)
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  654. # [18:05] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  655. # [18:05] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  661. # [18:16] * annevk thanks TabAtkins for making it easier to resolve a bunch of bugs
  662. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, so when are you publishing a Values LCWD? :)
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  672. # [18:34] <annevk> aah
  673. # [18:34] <annevk> gruber will be disappointed http://www.google.com/press/motorola/quotes/
  674. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Of course they're going to *say* they're happy with it, what choice do they have?
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  678. # [18:38] <annevk> not saying anything
  679. # [18:38] <annevk> which would be the usual course of action
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  709. # [20:03] <timeless> annevk / AryehGregor : what i like is that it sounds like someone sent those guys a PR draft and instructed them to repeat it
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  711. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> "Please tick the box next to the quote you like most"
  712. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Near future. A bit more review and clean-up is needed beforehand, but not more than a month or so.
  713. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I strive for continuity whenever possible and practical. Having rounding errors drastically affect rendering is bad if we can avoid it.
  714. # [20:06] <Ms2ger> Oh, and the Overview.html fantasai sent to www-archive had the second half of the spec nested in a <dd>, if you hadn't noticed yet
  715. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's already been fixed.
  716. # [20:06] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.21.8)
  717. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> (We'd left in a </ol> instead of a </dl>, or something like that.)
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  719. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> Sounds like something I'd do
  720. # [20:10] * AryehGregor sees ~value.indexOf("foo") used to mean value.indexOf("foo") != -1 -- freaky but sort of cool
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  724. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Is this too snarky? "This is an excellent opportunity for those who believe that the W3C is a good place to develop specs to show their willingness to improve the web. All it would take is a modest amount of effort to submit the spec for W3C publication, and of course in their view, this would be beneficial because the W3C is a good place to publish specs. I wait with interest for one of the many people who have expressed concern about the
  725. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> editing spec not being at the W3C to spend the necessary time themselves to fix the problem, rather than expecting others to do it."
  726. # [20:20] * AryehGregor thinks it probably is
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  728. # [20:21] * timeless doesn't see it as snarky
  729. # [20:21] <annevk> I would phrase it more direct
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  731. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Okay, I said it.
  732. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Let's see how people react.
  733. # [20:29] <timeless> i fully expect them to ignore you :)
  734. # [20:31] <hober> AryehGregor: :)
  735. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> Either no one will do it, or someone will try briefly and then it will stagnate and die.
  736. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> I'm betting on the first one.
  737. # [20:32] * timeless too
  738. # [20:32] <timeless> well
  739. # [20:32] <timeless> i suppose if you were placing money, i'd just do it and take your money :)
  740. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> It won't waste much of anyone's time if someone wants to escalate a FIXED resolution. I can spend twenty minutes to write a counter-CP if someone escalates.
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  747. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: not too snarky, IMHO
  748. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Okay, good.
  749. # [20:37] <timeless> MikeSmith: fwiw, the w3 gym bag came in handy
  750. # [20:37] <timeless> i unpacked it yesterday and started using it today :)
  751. # [20:38] <timeless> i also unpacked the w3 kitchen thing...
  752. # [20:38] <timeless> and put it in my kitchen..
  753. # [20:38] <timeless> s/thing/apron/
  754. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> ah
  755. # [20:38] <timeless> we'll see if it actually gets used
  756. # [20:38] <timeless> so far i have a newly purchased toaster-oven and 0 free counter space (and i haven't unpacked my kitchen items from my move)
  757. # [20:39] <timeless> cooking for me will be mostly toasting breakfast and baking dinners :)
  758. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> heh
  759. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> you can do a lot with a toaster oven man
  760. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> I do at least
  761. # [20:40] <MikeSmith> I don't have a real oven
  762. # [20:40] <MikeSmith> few people in Japan do
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  767. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, because there's too little space?
  768. # [20:48] <MikeSmith> yeah, in part at least
  769. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> but also because how often do you need to roast a whole turkey or whatever?
  770. # [20:50] <timeless> when you want to heat your house or just run up your electric, gas or oil bill?
  771. # [20:50] <timeless> iirc one of my friend's experiences was indeed the gas side of things
  772. # [20:50] <MikeSmith> big-oven cooking, you have to do the whole pre-heating thing, which is nuts
  773. # [20:50] <timeless> even toaster ovens need preheating
  774. # [20:51] <timeless> (if you're baking)
  775. # [20:51] <timeless> (not if you're toasting or broiling)
  776. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> yeah, but it takes a lot less time of course
  777. # [20:52] <timeless> yeah
  778. # [20:52] <timeless> and as i said, it heats your whole house
  779. # [20:52] <timeless> (and it's much easier to burn yourself that way)
  780. # [20:53] <timeless> otoh, things really are different if you're cooking for 4+ v. 1-2
  781. # [20:53] <timeless> in helsinki, i'd have gladly traded my Oven for a toaster-oven and an automatic dishwasher
  782. # [20:54] <timeless> (well, really traded the oven for the dishwasher and added a separate toaster-oven)
  783. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Hixie, there's no diff given at <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13024>.
  784. # [20:55] <timeless> '13024>' is not a valid bug number.
  785. # [20:55] <timeless> i think the diffs are supposedly generated by a bot later
  786. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Use a client that has better URL detection heuristics. > is not valid in URLs per RFC.
  787. # [20:55] <timeless> i've never actually seen them
  788. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Yes, but it involves some manual step that Hixie sometimes messes up.
  789. # [20:56] <zewt> it's not customary to <> urls on IRC
  790. # [20:56] <timeless> well, i seriously haven't ever seen those diffs appearing
  791. # [20:56] <timeless> and i do get the resolved mails
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  802. # [21:35] <Hixie> zcorpan: back when i was editing the spec, it had Origin: client-to-server, and Sec-WebSocket-Origin server-to-client
  803. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> This seems to be broken: http://aryeh.name/tests-root/tests/submission/AryehGregor/reflection/reflection-forms.html
  804. # [21:36] <Hixie> zcorpan: because Origin: is only defined for client-to-server, and because it was another way to prevent echo servers getting p0wned
  805. # [21:37] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah, no diff for css changes
  806. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  807. # [21:37] <Hixie> anyone interested in taking over the pdf generation?
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  813. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> So in Chrome 15, when I close all windows and reopen one, I no longer see a way to restore the tabs I had open in any window other than the last one closed.
  814. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Sigh?
  815. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> I was relying on that.
  816. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
  817. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> They moved it to the lower right corner.
  818. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> Works for me.
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  821. # [22:03] <timeless> heh
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  831. # [22:31] <jgraham> I assume the correct answer to "how often do you cook turkey" is "never, turkey is the blandest of meats and therefore not worth wasting your life on"
  832. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> jgraham: You have never had a correctly-cooked turkey, I see.
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  834. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> When done right, turkey is moist and flavorful and great.
  835. # [22:32] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I am rather confident that there is nothing you can do to turkey to get over the basic problem that it is exceptionally bland meat
  836. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> Look up Alton Brown's turkey recipes - the guy is a genius and his method has 100% success with everyone I know who's tried it.
  837. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> jgraham: You're confidently wrong, then.
  838. # [22:32] <Hixie> where do you stand on chicken?
  839. # [22:32] <Philip`> Standing on chickens is cruel
  840. # [22:32] <Hixie> (just trying to calibrate so i know how to respond)
  841. # [22:33] <jgraham> Chicken is OK if you find a decent one
  842. # [22:33] <Philip`> Oh, chicken, not chickens
  843. # [22:33] <jgraham> Standing on chickens is what happens in inensive farming :(
  844. # [22:33] <Hixie> ok i'm with tab then
  845. # [22:33] <jgraham> *intensive
  846. # [22:34] <jgraham> I remain skeptical that one could make turkey as nice as e.g. goose
  847. # [22:34] <jgraham> One simply has a better raw ingredient
  848. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> Never had goose, but I've had duck. Are they at all similar?
  849. # [22:35] <jgraham> Somewhat
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  851. # [22:35] <jgraham> It is certainly the closest comparison I can think of
  852. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> Then I have personally cooked turkey that is as good as duck in a high-quality restaurant (from a pure meat perspective).
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  854. # [22:39] <jgraham> Then I will withhold final judgement until I have tried this miracle recipe. But in the meantime I will continue to work under the hypothesis that the anglophone tradition of turkey for celebratory meals is a sad loss for gastronomy
  855. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Come to my house for Christmas.
  856. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> I'm not disagreeing with your hypothesis, though - most people cook *terrible* turkey.
  857. # [22:40] <jgraham> That would make it hard to cook Christmas dinner at my house. Unless Christmas is like pixar releases and happens earlier in the US than anywhere else in the world
  858. # [22:41] <jgraham> (I seriously recommend trying goose though. Properly cookd it can be delicious)
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  860. # [22:43] <timeless> jgraham: the reason for turkey is that it's bigger and cheaper and feeds more
  861. # [22:43] <timeless> geese are smaller, more expensive, take more effort and feed fewer
  862. # [22:43] <jgraham> timeless: I know
  863. # [22:44] <jgraham> Although the "take more effort" is wrong
  864. # [22:44] <timeless> i think i've had duck once or twice at most, it's nice, but kind of like fish, rather delicate
  865. # [22:44] <jgraham> Unless you are keeping them yourself, perhaps
  866. # [22:44] <timeless> jgraham: more effort is wrt total effort to prepare sufficient to feed the same number of people
  867. # [22:44] <jgraham> (although I understand geese are not that hard to keep)
  868. # [22:45] * Ms2ger wonders if he should read Hixie's latest commit message as "Pretty iffy"
  869. # [22:46] <jgraham> Possibly I am just so antisocial that I never need to feed more than about 8-10 people
  870. # [22:46] <Ms2ger> 8-10? You must be extremely social
  871. # [22:46] <timeless> how many geese?
  872. # [22:47] <jgraham> timeless: I'm pretty dure I have done 8 people with one largish goose
  873. # [22:47] <jgraham> *sure
  874. # [22:48] <jgraham> Yes, the FAQ at http://www.clerkesgeese.com/FAQs.html agrees with me there
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  876. # [22:49] <jgraham> Of course if US home portions are in the same ratio as US restaurant portions compared to european ones, you can probably divide by 1.5-2
  877. # [22:50] * jgraham assumes they are not
  878. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> I dunno, it's probably closer than not.
  879. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Though I've never eaten a euro home-cooked meal.
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  883. # [22:54] <jgraham> If you are ever in the same toen as me then we will have to change that
  884. # [22:54] <jgraham> *town
  885. # [22:54] <jgraham> sigh
  886. # [22:55] <Hixie> jgraham: dude if i ever have to feed more than like 5 people i order pizza
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  889. # [22:57] <timeless> heh
  890. # [22:57] <jgraham> Swedish pizza is... interesting. Kebab meat and bearnaise sauce is a popular topping
  891. # [22:59] * moo-_- in Sweden right now
  892. # [22:59] <moo-_-> jgraham: I prefer Kebab, bluecheese, pineapple and mayonase
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  895. # [23:08] <jgraham> ugh
  896. # [23:08] <jgraham> :)
  897. # [23:09] <Hixie> can you not animate box-shadow with -webkit-transition?
  898. # [23:09] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  899. # [23:09] <Hixie> can anyone come up with something you might animate based on details[open] ?
  900. # [23:13] * jernoble is now known as jer|afk
  901. # [23:13] <jgraham> I assume the height of the bit that appears isn't the answer you are looking for here
  902. # [23:13] * AryehGregor votes for height
  903. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You should be able to - <shadow> is a transitionable type.
  904. # [23:15] * eighty4 is now known as __eighty4__
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  906. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> jgraham: That pizza sounds pretty good, actually.
  907. # [23:15] <Hixie> am i doing it wrong? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1105
  908. # [23:15] * __eighty4__ is now known as ^^eighty4^^
  909. # [23:16] * ^^eighty4^^ is now known as ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ei
  910. # [23:16] * ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ei is now known as ^^^^^^^^^eighty4
  911. # [23:16] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: You're just wrong.
  912. # [23:16] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  913. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: About the pizza or the shadow?
  914. # [23:17] * MrDoublesite is now known as MrOpposite
  915. # [23:17] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: the pizza.
  916. # [23:17] <Hixie> about the shadow as well as far as i can tell :-P
  917. # [23:17] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Why would I care about vaguely on-topic discussion? :)
  918. # [23:17] * ^^^^^^^^^eighty4 is now known as eighty4
  919. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Ah, I see. While <shadow> is an animatable type, the spec currently only defines text-shadow as an animatable property. I assume that's because box-shadow was dropped for a little while.
  920. # [23:18] * TabAtkins could probably fix that.
  921. # [23:18] <Hixie> lame
  922. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> Ah, there's even a note that the list omits box-shadow.
  923. # [23:18] <Hixie> you got any other ideas of what to animate? 'height' like AryehGregor suggested seems reasonable but hard to do properly since we can't animate to/from 'auto' and since the whole point of <details> is to change the height so UAs are probably already doing it.
  924. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Rotate the marker.
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  927. # [23:20] <Hixie> isn't that something that UAs should do also?
  928. # [23:20] <Hixie> maybe i could animate the background or something
  929. # [23:20] <Hixie> fade in the details
  930. # [23:20] <Hixie> opacity, that might work
  931. # [23:20] <annevk> opacity:0 > 1
  932. # [23:20] <annevk> or the other way around
  933. # [23:21] <annevk> I always forget what is transparent
  934. # [23:21] <Hixie> i guess i have to animate a div inside it
  935. # [23:21] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  936. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> annevk: Fully opaque things aren't transparent.
  937. # [23:23] <jgraham> It can't be said too often: not being able to transition to auto height is lame
  938. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Yus.
  939. # [23:24] <jgraham> Also, so is pizza with bearnaise sauce
  940. # [23:25] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@mozilla.vlan426.asr1.sfo1.gblx.net)
  941. # [23:25] <eighty4> Sorry for the nick changes earlier
  942. # [23:27] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925211717.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb)
  943. # [23:33] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona) (Quit: cgcardona)
  944. # [23:38] * Quits: bga_ (~bga@95-55-15-7.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  945. # [23:38] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@95-55-15-7.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru)
  946. # [23:42] <Hixie> TabAtkins: dude this don't work neither! http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1106
  947. # [23:42] * jer|afk is now known as jernoble|afk
  948. # [23:42] * jernoble|afk is now known as jer|afk
  949. # [23:43] <jamesr> Hixie: that link tries to animate box-shadow
  950. # [23:43] <Hixie> no?
  951. # [23:44] <Hixie> details div { -webkit-transition: opacity 0.5s ease; opacity: 0; } details[open] div { box-shadow: black 0 0 1em; opacity: 1; }
  952. # [23:44] <Hixie> it has a shadow appear, sure
  953. # [23:44] <Hixie> but the opacity is what is changed dynamically
  954. # [23:44] <jamesr> ah, i see
  955. # [23:45] <annevk> prolly a bug?
  956. # [23:45] <Hixie> yeah i guess you just can't animate with <details> in webkit
  957. # [23:45] <Hixie> anyone else implement it?
  958. # [23:46] <annevk> don't think so
  959. # [23:47] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925211717.dsl.bell.ca)
  960. # [23:47] <Hixie> my opera build won't load live dom viewer, wtf
  961. # [23:47] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
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  963. # [23:49] * Quits: bga_ (~bga@95-55-15-7.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  964. # [23:49] * _bga is now known as bga_
  965. # [23:49] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  966. # [23:49] * Quits: bga_ (~bga@95-55-15-7.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  970. # [23:57] * Quits: MikeSmith_ (~mikesmith@EM111-188-31-205.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  971. # [23:58] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@74.125.56.18)
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  973. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Oh, actually, yeah, that's probably true. Our <details> impl is pretty hacky. I think we do some manual rendertree hacking, so it's not surprising if some things break.
  974. # Session Close: Tue Aug 16 00:00:00 2011

The end :)