/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-15 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Aug 15 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [01:14] <AryehGregor> Hixie, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13551 was filed by an implementer -- you really want it assigned to contributor@whatwg.org?
# [01:15] <Hixie> assigning to contributor@whatwg.org just means i think that it would be productive for the "editorial assistants" to look at it first
# [01:16] <AryehGregor> k.
# [01:16] <Hixie> i'll go through them all eventually too
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# [01:22] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, it's *possible* to play a game based on WASD+mouselook without a mouse lock, if the mouse sensitivity isn't really low. You just have to do some 360s every time the mouse gets too close to the edge of the screen.
# [01:23] <zewt> it's ... really not, heh
# [01:23] <zewt> like, sure, you can drive a car that only turns left, but ... not really
# [01:24] <AryehGregor> I didn't say it would be *fun*.
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# [01:30] <Philip`> If you don't want it to be fun, just use the arrow keys for turning (and alt+arrows for strafe) then you don't need mouselook at all
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# [09:14] <MikeSmith> question about the Do Not Track feature/spec, for anybody who knows
# [09:14] <MikeSmith> if I send a DNT: 1 opt-out header to "first-party" site, does that mean it also can't do any "collection, retention, and use of all data related to the request and response"?
# [09:15] <MikeSmith> or does it mean only any third-party sites with embedded content on that page can't do collection, retention, and use of all data related to the request and response?
# [09:15] <MikeSmith> it's not clear from the spec
# [09:15] <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mayer-do-not-track-00
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# [09:16] <MikeSmith> the spec says, "In processing a request that includes an OPT-OUT header, a server MUST NOT perform THIRD-PARTY TRACKING"
# [09:17] <MikeSmith> but it doesn't say the first-party site can't do "tracking" (= collection, retention, and use of all data related to the request and response)
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# [09:18] <MikeSmith> and given a request with a DNT: 1 header, how does a site know whether it's a third-party site or a first-party site?
# [09:22] <MikeSmith> or does the UA only send the DNT: 1 header to third-party sites but not not first-party sites?
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# [09:55] <zcorpan> Hixie: you recall why websocket has sec-websocket-origin rather than just origin?
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# [10:04] <jgraham> zcorpan: Didn't it have something to do with XHR originally
# [10:04] <jgraham> Then I have a feeling that the real reason got removed by some other change and the sec-websocket- bit got cargo culted in
# [10:04] <jgraham> Or stayed in for cargo-cult reasons
# [10:06] <zcorpan> maybe websocket's origin header predated the other origin header
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# [10:23] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: do you know if Alex Fowler is around on IRC much?
# [10:23] <Ms2ger> Who's that?
# [10:23] <MikeSmith> he's involved with the Do Not Track feature
# [10:24] <jgraham> Ms2ger: What code did you want to share between the testsuites?
# [10:24] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, not following that
# [10:24] <MikeSmith> ok
# [10:24] <Ms2ger> jgraham, the DOMTokenList reflection stuff
# [10:26] <jgraham> I guess the idea is that one could implement one feature without the other
# [10:27] <jgraham> (I am not really opposed to sharing code, but can imagine more fun things to spend time on)
# [10:27] <Ms2ger> I just want to have a shared testDOMTokenListReflectionStuff(element, attribute) somewhere
# [10:31] <annevk> https://rniwa.com/2011-08-14/apple-style-span-is-gone/ is nice
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# [10:50] <annevk> making sense of bugs Leif files is hard
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# [10:59] <zcorpan> heh, the "IDL" labels look different in opera, firefox and chrome
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# [11:04] <annevk> I'm trying to come up with something to write for the WHATWG Weekly but nothing really comes to mind
# [11:04] <annevk> end of Last Call, over a hundred mostly editorial and minor technical fixes were made to HTML, and some attempt at getting input on HTML.next
# [11:04] <annevk> that's one sentence...
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# [11:10] <zcorpan> if nothing much has happened, that's ok to write in a weekly report :)
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# [11:15] <Ms2ger> Some discussion about the organization of DOM specs
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# [11:18] <annevk> I wouldn't really call that discussion :(
# [11:19] <annevk> Microsoft does not participate and objects when publishing; sucks
# [11:21] <webben> annevk: what did they object to publishing?
# [11:21] <annevk> DOM Core
# [11:22] <annevk> and then when I make a suggestion they do not answer
# [11:22] <annevk> further slowing progress
# [11:27] <annevk> put that on the record: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JulSep/0869.html
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# [11:35] <annevk> smaug____, I was wondering, do you agree with all the DOM 3 Events stuff?
# [11:35] <annevk> smaug____, because some of those replies to Last Call comments are rather, well, odd
# [11:35] <smaug____> which one in particularly
# [11:35] <annevk> e.g. on DOM features
# [11:36] <smaug____> "odd" replies are the norm in standardization, apparently :)
# [11:36] <annevk> or changing scroll to a UIEvent
# [11:36] <annevk> which contradicts e.g. CSSOM View
# [11:36] <annevk> and implementations
# [11:38] <annevk> smaug____, so you support the decisions?
# [11:38] <smaug____> Let's say so that I'm ok with the decisions
# [11:39] <annevk> wow
# [11:39] <smaug____> how does changing scroll to UIEvent contradicts with CSSOM ?
# [11:41] <annevk> it says to use Event
# [11:41] <annevk> but that event overview is meaningless anyway
# [11:41] <annevk> what matters is what interface is used when dispatching
# [11:42] <annevk> the way events are defined in DOM Level 3 Events is rather laughable compared to how dispatching events is defined in other specifications
# [11:42] <smaug____> (of topic, HTML spec and Web DOM code contradict with implementations quite often )
# [11:42] <annevk> usually with good reason
# [11:43] <annevk> not "to make this table look pretty"
# [11:43] <smaug____> not very often with good reason
# [11:43] <smaug____> but I'm ok change scroll back to event
# [11:43] <smaug____> I just don't really care whether it is UIEvent or Event
# [11:43] <annevk> well you disagree with the reason sometimes
# [11:44] <annevk> but making it UIEvent because the spec's organization is cleaner then is nonsense
# [11:44] <annevk> than*
# [11:45] <smaug____> that wasn't shepazu's reason to make scroll UIEvent
# [11:48] <smaug____> I might even like if most of the event in browsing context were UIEvents
# [11:49] <smaug____> since those give easy access to window
# [11:49] <smaug____> s/event/events/
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# [11:59] <annevk> smaug____, where does DOM Core contradict specifications btw without good reason?
# [11:59] <annevk> smaug____, euh, implementations
# [11:59] <jgraham> annevk: (I assume that depends what you mean by "good reasons" e.g. removing attr nodes might not be considered "good reasons")
# [11:59] <annevk> smaug____, cause I thought people were on board with Node : EventTarget, Attr no longer being a node, etc.
# [12:00] <smaug____> those are ok.
# [12:01] <smaug____> ÍMO
# [12:01] <smaug____> CDATA removal probably isn't
# [12:02] <smaug____> at least there hasn't been any good proposal how to fix the problems removing CDATA causes
# [12:02] <smaug____> (related to serialization )
# [12:04] <smaug____> oh, hmm, normalize() is removed
# [12:04] <smaug____> why
# [12:04] <annevk> sicking has a proposal and there's a patch implementing CDATA removal in Gecko
# [12:05] <smaug____> I know Ms2ger has the patch to remove CDATA from Gecko
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# [12:10] <annevk> smaug____, presumably normalize() is either not implemented widely or lacks good use cases
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# [12:23] <annevk> wait
# [12:23] <annevk> if CR LF is always normalized on submitting
# [12:23] <annevk> text/plain can be parsed reliably
# [12:23] <annevk> with respect to form submission
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# [12:36] <zcorpan> foolip: yt? you have any opinion about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12405 ?
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# [13:27] <rabbi1> Can you help? i am trying to achieve this http://imagebin.org/167884 in a <ul> the data in green background appear when the user logs in. All is part of a <ul>. <li> has contents for user logged in and user logged out......
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# [14:07] <annevk> MikeSmith, it seems that "amir arsalan <m_a_s_7@yahoo.com>" is spamming Bugzilla somehow
# [14:07] <annevk> MikeSmith, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Aug/1706.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Aug/1707.html
# [14:07] <MikeSmith> thanks
# [14:08] <MikeSmith> trying to delete his account now
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# [14:12] <annevk> Google acquires hardware part of Motorola: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/supercharging-android-google-to-acquire.html
# [14:18] <MikeSmith> annevk: disabled his account
# [14:21] <foolip> zcorpan, it seems that if we want people to mix native controls with custom subtitles, etc, then we need to expose events for them showing/hiding together with the size
# [14:22] <foolip> or we could abuse the multitrack stuff to "sync" a src-less <video controls> with the <video> elements that have the actual video streams
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# [14:23] <zcorpan> events could work
# [14:24] <zcorpan> i don't follow what you mean with the multitrack stuff
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# [15:07] <annevk> after publishing I realize I should have mentioned the UndoManager stuff
# [15:07] <annevk> noted for next week
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# [15:42] <jarek> Hi
# [15:43] <jarek> what's the definition of "visual", "tactile" and "bitmap" media type as used in http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/ ?
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# [15:44] <jarek> does "visual" include "tty"? Or does "bitmap" include print?
# [15:45] <annevk> no
# [15:45] <annevk> types are exclusive
# [15:45] <annevk> see CSS 2.1
# [15:45] <jarek> ahh... right...
# [15:46] <jarek> I just googled the terms and found CSS2.1 specs: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/media.html
# [15:46] <annevk> media queries 3.1 will prolly fix this
# [15:46] <annevk> well fix in the sense that it will define both media types and media features and not defer to CSS 2.1 for the former
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# [15:48] <jarek> why "resolution" property accepts only dpi and dpcm units?
# [15:48] <jarek> why not ppi?
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# [15:48] <annevk> what's the difference with dpi?
# [15:48] <jarek> so for screen media type, dpi is treated like ppi?
# [15:49] <jarek> I thought that DPI should be only used for printed media, where you have actual dots
# [15:50] <annevk> I think so
# [15:50] <annevk> maybe suggest on www-style that it is clarified
# [15:50] <annevk> although I'm the editor I don't really know much about these units
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# [15:58] <jarek> CSS3 media queries specification says that resolution may accept only dpi and dpcm units and that resolution property applies to bitmap media types
# [15:58] <jarek> now CSS2 specs defines bitmap media types as:
# [15:59] <jarek> print, projection, screen and tv
# [15:59] <jarek> I guess this means that DPI should be treated as PPI
# [16:00] <jarek> at least on screen
# [16:00] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dots_per_inch#Computer_monitor_DPI_standards
# [16:02] <annevk> yay, WHATWG Blog has >6000 subscribers per Google Reader
# [16:02] <jarek> now I'm confused, how windows can <<set default display "DPI" to 96 PPI>>? Isn't this value depended on monitor size and resolution?
# [16:02] <benjoffe_> hmm didn't know there's a blog, make that 6001
# [16:03] <benjoffe_> well, >6001
# [16:05] <Philip`> jarek: They're independent of physical inches
# [16:06] <benjoffe_> jarek: I'm pretty sure that's due to a lack of monitor dpi api's
# [16:06] <annevk> AryehGregor, there were several comments on your blog post that did not get approved thus far
# [16:06] <annevk> AryehGregor, I approved them
# [16:06] <jarek> so there are actually three units: DPI, logical PPI and physical PPI?
# [16:07] <jarek> nevermind, this thing makes no sense
# [16:08] <jarek> I will just hard-code in my code that PPI equals DPI, hopefully no one will notice :P
# [16:09] <Philip`> There's the number of RGB cells per inch on your LCD screen, and the number of pixels of data that the computer sends to the display per cell (hence per inch), and the number of pixels of data that the computer uses to represent objects measured in inches (or in fractions of inches, e.g. points)
# [16:10] <Philip`> plus any scaling factors the software wants to add
# [16:11] <Philip`> Also, the length of an inch will change if you travel at relativistic speeds
# [16:11] <Philip`> So it's quite hard to be consistent about measurements
# [16:12] <jarek> Philip`: if iPad's specification says that it has 132 PPI screen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_displays_by_pixel_density), how do I target this or any higher resolution with media queries?
# [16:13] <jarek> will this work?
# [16:13] <jarek> "@media screen and (min-resolution: 132dpi)"
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# [16:13] <Philip`> Haven't got a clue
# [16:13] <benjoffe_> jarek: why don't you just test against it? Do you have an ipad?
# [16:14] <jarek> benjoffe_: no, it's overpriced
# [16:14] <jgraham> (only the length of an inch in a different frame of reference. So not really a problem if you are looking at your computer in a spaceship travelling at 0.98c, but perhaps worth thinking about if you are building an intergalactic Oxford Circus and want the adverts to work for passers by)
# [16:14] <Philip`> Seems complex enough that the only reliable method is to test it (or copy from someone who's tested it)
# [16:14] <zewt> vmware + osx + ios emulator
# [16:14] <jarek> but I guess that this will be the only reliable way to verify it
# [16:14] <benjoffe_> jarek: do you have xcode? the ipad simulator is available for $5, or free if you have lion
# [16:14] <benjoffe_> (requires osx)
# [16:15] <zewt> haha what, it was free when i downloaded it
# [16:15] <Philip`> jgraham: Might still be a problem if your spaceship is falling into a small black hole at 0.98c
# [16:15] <Philip`> since your monitor may accelerate faster than you
# [16:16] <benjoffe_> zewt: it's free if you have a dev lincese which costs $99 per year
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# [16:16] <jarek> great, I have the developer license
# [16:16] <jgraham> Yes, I was only really thinking of special relativity. It's always easier to pretend gravity doesn't exist
# [16:16] <zewt> i don't, and i'm pretty sure i just downloaded it from apple
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# [16:16] <jarek> but I can't find it in dev section, do I need to participate in iPhone developer program? I'm currently signed up for Mac dev program
# [16:17] <benjoffe_> it's available for me as an ipohne dev, not sure about the mac dev program
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# [16:17] <benjoffe_> i thought it would have been, considering xcode is used for mac dev too
# [16:19] <Philip`> Running an iPad simulator on a desktop PC doesn't sound ideal if you're trying to figure out whether the real physical display resolution has an effect on the browser
# [16:19] <zewt> it should be the same
# [16:20] <benjoffe_> yes I would be quite surprised if there was a difference there
# [16:20] <Philip`> Either the browser ignores the system, or the system lies to the browser, and the latter case wouldn't inspire much confidence that things aren't lying in other ways too
# [16:21] <benjoffe_> heck, i have an ipad simulator, maybe i'll go check
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# [16:21] <zewt> what?
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# [16:23] <benjoffe_> hmm it keeps crashing, shouldn't have installed the beta.. :/
# [16:23] <zewt> better than even odds it just lies about dpi in the same way as every other browser...
# [16:24] <jarek> will I get iPhone and iPad emulator if I buy XCode from App Store?
# [16:25] <benjoffe_> jarek: yes, it's part of the bundle
# [16:25] <zewt> there's just one with a menu option to change modes
# [16:25] <jarek> the version of XCode that I downloaded from Mac Dev Program does not ship with any emulators
# [16:25] <benjoffe_> jarek: better off just buying lion imo though, $25 more
# [16:25] <benjoffe_> jarek: are you sure? it's not easy to find
# [16:26] <jarek> benjoffe_: I already have lion, it did not ship with XCode
# [16:26] <benjoffe_> jarek: oh, if you have lion you can download xcode from the mac app store for free
# [16:27] * Philip` wonders what's the point of charging $5 for development tools, since surely it can't provide any non-trivial amount of revenue
# [16:28] <benjoffe_> Philip`: I think it's more about getting people to attach their credit card to the store in the hope they buy other items
# [16:29] <jarek> ahh... I have already iOS simulator installed, I just had to create new iOS project
# [16:30] <benjoffe_> jarek: you can also launch the simulator directly if you only want to test websites, just make a shortcut, it's in a silly location like /Developer/Platforms/... (instead of the sane location of ~/Applications)
# [16:30] <jgraham> Oh, I thought it was so that the platform wasn't tainted with poor users
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# [16:33] <timeless> :(, my g+ account was suspended
# [16:33] <timeless> it seems that the fact that i've been using `timeless` as my name for more than half my life (and my entire professional carrer) including IRL wasn't expected behavior
# [16:34] <Ms2ger> Myself, I didn't try
# [16:34] <zewt> it's pretty ironic that google said that privacy is a priorty on g+, then immediately violates people's privacy by trying to force them to reveal their name
# [16:34] <zewt> "well that was quick"
# [16:34] <timeless> they said privacy was a priority?
# [16:35] <zewt> everyone says that
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# [16:41] <jarek> it looks like iPad does not support resolution media query at all
# [16:41] <timeless> those are silly anyway :)
# [16:42] <Ms2ger> iPads?
# [16:42] <jarek> but there is "-webkit-device-pixel-ratio" media query, is it the same thing?
# [16:43] <benjoffe_> jarek: no, that's the number of physical pixels per css pixel
# [16:43] <benjoffe_> which for ipad/iphone3 is 1, for iphone4 is 2
# [16:45] <timeless> jarek: what would you do w/ a resolution media query
# [16:46] <timeless> other than poorly support every device you've never met
# [16:46] * timeless has only recently found one site which didn't suck wrt discrimination
# [16:46] <zewt> cheers to misapplication of the word "discrimination"
# [16:47] <timeless> (it was Fandango fwiw, they let me choose Mobile, BB app, or Normal)
# [16:47] <timeless> zewt: you don't think that a service which forces users to get subpar content just because it thinks they want it is discriminating against those users?
# [16:47] <jarek> timeless: well, I expect resolution media query to be widely supported in the near future, that's why I would like to implement it in my app sooner than later
# [16:48] <zewt> no, i think that's using a loaded word to make something sound worse than it is
# [16:48] <timeless> it's pretty bad
# [16:48] <timeless> if i'm not allowed to participate in something
# [16:48] <timeless> then how is that not discrimination?
# [16:49] <Philip`> It seems like the usual attitude is "I want my page to do something special on iPhones, how do I write a media query to target iPhones?", which is effectively an obfuscated form of browser sniffing
# [16:49] <timeless> further, segregated busing in some cases still allowed you to ride the same buses
# [16:49] <timeless> you just got stuck in the back
# [16:49] <timeless> getting second or third class service on a bus was still service
# [16:49] <zewt> jarek: does anything in media queries account for the fact that the font and layout size you want depends on the device, and not soley the dpi?
# [16:49] <timeless> that's what we're getting on the internet
# [16:50] <timeless> that sure sounds like discrimination to me
# [16:50] <timeless> Philip`: indeed
# [16:50] <zewt> eg. a phone is typically much higher resolution than a desktop monitor, much smaller, and viewed much closer
# [16:50] <zewt> the resolution is only part of the story
# [16:50] <timeless> anyway, as dbaron recently pointed out on www-style (?)
# [16:50] <Philip`> (Have any browsers started lying to media queries yet, in order to receive iPhone-targeted content?)
# [16:51] <timeless> it's easy to get media queries wrong when you reach boundary conditions
# [16:51] <timeless> Philip`: not sure about media queries
# [16:51] <timeless> but i know that browsers have lied to receive iPhone content in other cases/ways
# [16:51] <timeless> and i certainly expect it to happen soon enough
# [16:51] <timeless> ..
# [16:52] <timeless> zewt: so, which part of my logic is flawed which makes my use of the word offensive to you?
# [16:52] <zewt> <timeless> other than poorly support every device you've never met <- you called that discrimination, when it's the opposite of discrimination: behaving generically (even if not always usefully)
# [16:53] <timeless> oh
# [16:53] <timeless> they don't do that
# [16:53] <timeless> they don't behave generically
# [16:53] <zewt> that's what i was responding to
# [16:53] <timeless> they either give out good content or crap
# [16:53] <timeless> and you can only get good content if you pay the <iPhone-x> fee
# [16:54] <timeless> `We only allow whites to sit in the front of buses, anyone who we've never met can since in the back`
# [16:56] <Philip`> There must be a better of solving the browser-sniffing problem (since clearly people often want to do that rather than querying capabilities) - given N browser/device combinations, authors want to select some subset, then new browsers/devices developed afterwards want to insert themselves into some selection of subsets (while still being uniquely identifiable themselves by later authors)
# [16:57] <Philip`> without needing identifiers that perpetually grow in length (like UA strings)
# [16:57] <timeless> Philip`: generally speaking `let the user pick` works well for me
# [16:57] <timeless> it certainly makes me happy
# [16:57] <Philip`> There must be some kind of maths that would support that sort of subsetting
# [16:57] <timeless> have you used any of the ClearType configurator?
# [16:57] <timeless> s/tor/tors/
# [16:57] <timeless> (subpixel-antialiasing)
# [16:58] <timeless> you show the user a couple of pictures and let them choose the one they like
# [16:58] <Philip`> The thing that asks "which of these three samples looks best"?
# [16:58] <timeless> yeah
# [16:58] <zewt> i don't want to undergo an eye exam every time i go to a new site, heh
# [16:58] <timeless> i'm willing to do it
# [16:58] <timeless> i'd certainly be happy to have a button at the bottom of each site which lets me undergo such an exam
# [16:59] <zewt> "ask the user" is always a useful fallback but should always be a fallback
# [16:59] <timeless> it's fine w/ me for sites to guess wrong as long as they let me choose
# [16:59] <timeless> but most of the sites i see don't do that
# [16:59] <timeless> my favorite is the *idiotic* news sites which when i am sent directly to an article
# [16:59] <timeless> ... redirect me to the front of their mobile site
# [16:59] <timeless> because *obviously* i didn't want to read the article i visited!
# [17:01] <zewt> heh
# [17:01] <zewt> generally if i click a link and it doesn't go to what i clicked, i just leave
# [17:02] <zewt> most commonly sites that go "well, you clicked on something explicitly, but we're going to ignore you and show you an ad/ask you to sign up/ask you to do the raindance/whatever first"
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# [17:02] <timeless> i need to get google to let me say `don't ever show content from this service again`
# [17:03] <timeless> i think it's actually possible these days
# [17:03] <timeless> but ...
# [17:03] <zewt> it often will show it in searches, but not always (seemingly at random)
# [17:03] <timeless> yeah, sadly i use google news
# [17:04] <timeless> i think for that i need to use the special configurator box or the impossible to use on my touch-based-device heisendropdown
# [17:04] <zewt> i couldn't stand google news, because it seemed to refresh itself automatically all the time, so it always showed up highlighted in firefox as a "new tab"
# [17:04] <timeless> (which insists on not being clickable)
# [17:04] <timeless> hrm
# [17:04] <timeless> it does refresh automatically
# [17:04] <timeless> but you must be using some extension because firefox doesn't do that to me
# [17:04] <zewt> i was
# [17:04] <zewt> i'm not right now since i stopped using tabmixplus, but it's very useful
# [17:05] <zewt> pages should never auto-refresh, that's just obnoxious
# [17:05] <timeless> you don't want gmail to autorefresh?
# [17:06] <timeless> hrm, you clearly don't use web-irc
# [17:06] <zewt> that's ajax updating, it doesn't refresh the entire page
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# [17:06] <timeless> tomato tomato?
# [17:06] <zewt> which is what gnews seemed to do, at least at the time
# [17:06] <zewt> ... no?
# [17:07] <zewt> reloading the entire page is far different than a lightweight ajax update
# [17:07] <timeless> how?
# [17:07] <timeless> reloading the entire page could mean you could retrieve old versions from cache
# [17:08] <timeless> (which can be useful)
# [17:08] <zewt> how? it's sort of the ... point of ajax, heh
# [17:08] <zewt> (only in part, of course)
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# [17:08] <timeless> if 99% of a page is content
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# [17:09] <timeless> then i'm not quite sure i'd buy that using ajax would actually mean much less load than a traditional page load
# [17:09] <zewt> then you can update the content unintrusively
# [17:09] <zewt> eg. greader
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# [17:14] <annevk> volkmar, if you specify trim on password, I don't really see why it shouldn't trim
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# [17:15] <timeless> annevk: why would someone trim a password?
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# [17:22] <annevk> to make copy and paste work better
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# [17:22] <annevk> if you don't allow spaces anyway
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# [17:22] <volkmar> annevk: i don't think we should allow trimming passwords, that's really dangerous
# [17:23] <annevk> dangerous?
# [17:23] <benjoffe_> google strips whitespace from passwords
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# [17:28] <volkmar> annevk: if I type " foobar " in a password field and they I want to login and I can't...
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# [17:28] <volkmar> I'm afraid it could be used without really realizing some side effects
# [17:29] <annevk> how could you register such a password to begin with if they trim consistently and do not allow whitespace?
# [17:30] <zewt> would seem like a very arbitrary special case to not support it
# [17:30] <annevk> <input trim> UI could just mean you cannot type spaces at the beginning and end of your input
# [17:30] <jgraham> annevk: My concern might be the *if*
# [17:31] <annevk> jgraham, then they would have problems with their JavaScript-based solution as well
# [17:31] <annevk> or with any restrictions on password for that matter, which certainly are around
# [17:31] <Philip`> If you want to support accidental whitespace included around passwords, it'd be just as easy to do the trimming on the server (and then you could check both the trimmed and untrimmed passwords, in case the spaces really are part of the password)
# [17:31] <zewt> conversely (though this is all very contrived and I don't see either ever happening in reality) someone might have their site trim spaces when storing a password, and use <input trim> to trim when entering, and not realize the *lack* of side effects due to arbitrary special cases
# [17:33] <volkmar> annevk: in general, altering the passwords value seems a wrong idea to me
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# [17:34] <timeless> yeah, any sanitization really needs to be enforced server side
# [17:35] <timeless> not doing that is just plain stupid
# [17:35] <timeless> zewt: fwiw...
# [17:35] <timeless> i think it was canada post
# [17:35] <timeless> but one of the sites was very anal about its login form `do not remember password`
# [17:35] <zewt> well, doing trimming client-side can make it clearer that it's happening (though in practice it probably doesn't matter whether the user is aware of it or not, in the case of passwords)
# [17:35] <timeless> the reset account password form was *not* anal
# [17:35] <timeless> so you could remember the password there...
# [17:36] <timeless> so... yes... it's trivially to be stupid and inconsistent!
# [17:36] <timeless> s/ly//
# [17:36] <timeless> yeah, it absolutely doesn't matter to users what you do to the password
# [17:36] <zewt> quasirelatedly, we need a real password-storage API
# [17:37] <timeless> they don't need to know that you're storing a sha256 hash instead of the actual password
# [17:37] <zewt> annoying how so many sites break or semi-break browser password storage
# [17:37] <timeless> how would a password-storage api help?
# [17:37] <zewt> firefox insists on remembering my old bugzilla password
# [17:37] <timeless> sites would just demand to disable it, or break it, or flood it with crap
# [17:37] <zewt> well, there are two problems, i think: remembering passwords from login forms, and ajax logins
# [17:38] <zewt> the former is what usually works, but sometimes does not; don't know why in the particular cases, but it'd be nice for that to be more reliable
# [17:38] <zewt> the latter almost never works; it would be nice if it could
# [17:38] <timeless> the former doesn't work when sites actively try to break it
# [17:38] <timeless> the easiest way is to add the attribute that says `please break password manager`
# [17:38] <zewt> i rarely see that, usually it's just unawareness of it
# [17:39] <zewt> as far as i'm concerned sites should never have the ability to do that
# [17:39] <timeless> the second easiest way is to not have a <form> containing the password field
# [17:39] <timeless> (and then use js to shift it into the form/submission)
# [17:39] <zewt> google passwords are regularly out of date for me, too
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# [17:39] <timeless> odd, i've never hit that problem
# [17:40] <zewt> it just never offers to store the newly-entered password
# [17:40] <zewt> but google is weird and it doesn't happen everywhere
# [17:40] <timeless> i'm pretty sure firefox has offered to update my password for google
# [17:40] * timeless will have to check sometime
# [17:41] <zewt> gmail fills in the password fine, for example, but if i open gapps management, that one's wrong
# [17:42] <timeless> you know you can `easily` `fix` it by opening the password list and deleting the one for the gapps site
# [17:42] <timeless> (ideally you'd be able to use Larry to fix it, but he never grew that feature)
# [17:42] <zewt> anyway, it would be nice for ajaxy logins to have the ability to integrate with password management; right now they don't at all
# [17:42] <timeless> well
# [17:42] <timeless> all they have to do is use <form> <input> <input type=password>
# [17:43] <timeless> as long as they have a handler on the <form> to trap onsubmit and send it where they need
# [17:43] <timeless> they can absolutely integrate with password management
# [17:43] <zewt> but if the form is never actually submitted as a form, firefox will never offer to store it
# [17:43] <timeless> you sure?
# [17:43] <zewt> how would it know?
# [17:44] <zewt> ajax logins typically cancel form submission entirely (if form submit happens at all), so it can do it some other way
# [17:44] <benjoffe_> reddit seems to do login async and has never had problems remembering my login details
# [17:44] <benjoffe_> on chrome
# [17:45] <zewt> don't know what reddit does
# [17:45] <timeless> data:text/html,<form action="data:text/plain," onsubmit="alert(1); return false"><input id=name><input id=pass type=password><input type=submit>
# [17:45] <timeless> isn't working 100%, but it's definitely asking to remember my password
# [17:46] <zewt> alert(1) in an event handler is probably going to do weird things
# [17:46] <timeless> although, perhaps noscript is suppressing js entirely :)
# [17:46] <zewt> data:text/html,<form action="data:text/plain," onsubmit="console.log('xxx'); return false"><input id=name><input id=pass type=password><input type=submit>
# [17:47] <zewt> doesn't prompt
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# [17:47] <zewt> (for me, in ff6)
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# [17:47] <timeless> data:text/html,<form action="data:text/plain," onsubmit="return false"><input id=name><input id=pass type=password><input type=submit>
# [17:47] <zewt> it shouldn't--the form submission was cancelled, after all, why would it?
# [17:47] <timeless> prompts for me in Nightly (different profile, no noscript)
# [17:47] * timeless shrugs
# [17:47] <timeless> it is here
# [17:48] <benjoffe_> why are you setting 'id' on the form inputs? Should be name
# [17:48] <timeless> what version of firefox are you using?
# [17:48] <timeless> benjoffe_: because i can :)
# [17:48] <zewt> as far as firefox can tell the submission was aborted, it'd be strange for it to offer to remember the password at that point
# [17:48] <timeless> fwiw i only have add-on compatibility reporter and https-everywhere
# [17:48] <benjoffe_> timeless: forms remember and post the 'name' attribute, if you want to play nice with password managers use it
# [17:48] <timeless> benjoffe_: my point is that even this contrived thing *does* play nicely with password managers
# [17:49] <timeless> at least, it does w/ my Nighty
# [17:49] <timeless> s/y$/ly/
# [17:49] * timeless wants to know why it isn't w/ zewt 's
# [17:49] <benjoffe_> that's surprising, they must be getting better
# [17:49] <timeless> zewt: firefox --no-remote -P
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# [17:49] <zewt> i'm suggesting that offering to remember the password in the above code is wrong
# [17:49] <timeless> well, it is remembering it
# [17:49] <timeless> and remember, the offer isn't a modal dialog
# [17:49] <timeless> so the user can safely ignore it
# [17:50] <timeless> or say `why thank you for offering`
# [17:50] <timeless> heh
# [17:50] <timeless> Error: uncaught exception: [Exception... "'Can't add a login with a null or empty hostname.' when calling method: [nsILoginManager::addLogin]" nsresult: "0x8057001e (NS_ERROR_XPC_JS_THREW_STRING)" location: "JS frame :: resource:///components/nsLoginManagerPrompter.js :: <TOP_LEVEL> :: line 853" data: no]
# [17:50] <zewt> heh i cringe every time i see a prompt that says "no thanks" "yes please"
# [17:50] <timeless> ok, well, i should say `it mostly works`
# [17:51] <zewt> software forcibly injecting politeness into the user
# [17:51] <timeless> since apparently the password manager's store and the ui don't agree on when to make an offer
# [17:51] <timeless> which is partially unfortunate
# [17:51] <zewt> that just looks like it doesn't care for data:
# [17:51] <timeless> that's right
# [17:51] <zewt> which wouldn't be surprising
# [17:52] <timeless> fwiw, it's the origin data and not the destination data
# [17:52] <timeless> (changing the action to http didn't resolve it)
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# [17:53] <zewt> makes sense
# [17:53] * timeless goes to watch a tech talk
# [17:53] <timeless> anyway, the point is that ajax should work
# [17:53] <timeless> unless you *try* to break password managers
# [17:53] <timeless> which sites generally do
# [17:53] <timeless> but that's because sites are evil
# [17:53] <zewt> RIGHT CLICK IS NOT SUPPORTED
# [17:53] <timeless> it isn't because it's hard to support
# [17:53] * timeless chuckles
# [17:53] <timeless> yeah, tell that to my one button mac mouse :)
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# [18:05] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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# [18:16] * annevk thanks TabAtkins for making it easier to resolve a bunch of bugs
# [18:18] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, so when are you publishing a Values LCWD? :)
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# [18:34] <annevk> aah
# [18:34] <annevk> gruber will be disappointed http://www.google.com/press/motorola/quotes/
# [18:35] <AryehGregor> Of course they're going to *say* they're happy with it, what choice do they have?
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# [18:38] <annevk> not saying anything
# [18:38] <annevk> which would be the usual course of action
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# [20:03] <timeless> annevk / AryehGregor : what i like is that it sounds like someone sent those guys a PR draft and instructed them to repeat it
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# [20:04] <Ms2ger> "Please tick the box next to the quote you like most"
# [20:05] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Near future. A bit more review and clean-up is needed beforehand, but not more than a month or so.
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I strive for continuity whenever possible and practical. Having rounding errors drastically affect rendering is bad if we can avoid it.
# [20:06] <Ms2ger> Oh, and the Overview.html fantasai sent to www-archive had the second half of the spec nested in a <dd>, if you hadn't noticed yet
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's already been fixed.
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# [20:06] <TabAtkins> (We'd left in a </ol> instead of a </dl>, or something like that.)
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# [20:07] <Ms2ger> Sounds like something I'd do
# [20:10] * AryehGregor sees ~value.indexOf("foo") used to mean value.indexOf("foo") != -1 -- freaky but sort of cool
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# [20:20] <AryehGregor> Is this too snarky? "This is an excellent opportunity for those who believe that the W3C is a good place to develop specs to show their willingness to improve the web. All it would take is a modest amount of effort to submit the spec for W3C publication, and of course in their view, this would be beneficial because the W3C is a good place to publish specs. I wait with interest for one of the many people who have expressed concern about the
# [20:20] <AryehGregor> editing spec not being at the W3C to spend the necessary time themselves to fix the problem, rather than expecting others to do it."
# [20:20] * AryehGregor thinks it probably is
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# [20:21] * timeless doesn't see it as snarky
# [20:21] <annevk> I would phrase it more direct
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# [20:29] <AryehGregor> Okay, I said it.
# [20:29] <AryehGregor> Let's see how people react.
# [20:29] <timeless> i fully expect them to ignore you :)
# [20:31] <hober> AryehGregor: :)
# [20:31] <AryehGregor> Either no one will do it, or someone will try briefly and then it will stagnate and die.
# [20:31] <AryehGregor> I'm betting on the first one.
# [20:32] * timeless too
# [20:32] <timeless> well
# [20:32] <timeless> i suppose if you were placing money, i'd just do it and take your money :)
# [20:32] <AryehGregor> It won't waste much of anyone's time if someone wants to escalate a FIXED resolution. I can spend twenty minutes to write a counter-CP if someone escalates.
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# [20:36] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: not too snarky, IMHO
# [20:36] <AryehGregor> Okay, good.
# [20:37] <timeless> MikeSmith: fwiw, the w3 gym bag came in handy
# [20:37] <timeless> i unpacked it yesterday and started using it today :)
# [20:38] <timeless> i also unpacked the w3 kitchen thing...
# [20:38] <timeless> and put it in my kitchen..
# [20:38] <timeless> s/thing/apron/
# [20:38] <MikeSmith> ah
# [20:38] <timeless> we'll see if it actually gets used
# [20:38] <timeless> so far i have a newly purchased toaster-oven and 0 free counter space (and i haven't unpacked my kitchen items from my move)
# [20:39] <timeless> cooking for me will be mostly toasting breakfast and baking dinners :)
# [20:39] <MikeSmith> heh
# [20:39] <MikeSmith> you can do a lot with a toaster oven man
# [20:39] <MikeSmith> I do at least
# [20:40] <MikeSmith> I don't have a real oven
# [20:40] <MikeSmith> few people in Japan do
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# [20:47] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, because there's too little space?
# [20:48] <MikeSmith> yeah, in part at least
# [20:49] <MikeSmith> but also because how often do you need to roast a whole turkey or whatever?
# [20:50] <timeless> when you want to heat your house or just run up your electric, gas or oil bill?
# [20:50] <timeless> iirc one of my friend's experiences was indeed the gas side of things
# [20:50] <MikeSmith> big-oven cooking, you have to do the whole pre-heating thing, which is nuts
# [20:50] <timeless> even toaster ovens need preheating
# [20:51] <timeless> (if you're baking)
# [20:51] <timeless> (not if you're toasting or broiling)
# [20:51] <MikeSmith> yeah, but it takes a lot less time of course
# [20:52] <timeless> yeah
# [20:52] <timeless> and as i said, it heats your whole house
# [20:52] <timeless> (and it's much easier to burn yourself that way)
# [20:53] <timeless> otoh, things really are different if you're cooking for 4+ v. 1-2
# [20:53] <timeless> in helsinki, i'd have gladly traded my Oven for a toaster-oven and an automatic dishwasher
# [20:54] <timeless> (well, really traded the oven for the dishwasher and added a separate toaster-oven)
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> Hixie, there's no diff given at <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13024>.
# [20:55] <timeless> '13024>' is not a valid bug number.
# [20:55] <timeless> i think the diffs are supposedly generated by a bot later
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> Use a client that has better URL detection heuristics. > is not valid in URLs per RFC.
# [20:55] <timeless> i've never actually seen them
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> Yes, but it involves some manual step that Hixie sometimes messes up.
# [20:56] <zewt> it's not customary to <> urls on IRC
# [20:56] <timeless> well, i seriously haven't ever seen those diffs appearing
# [20:56] <timeless> and i do get the resolved mails
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# [21:35] <Hixie> zcorpan: back when i was editing the spec, it had Origin: client-to-server, and Sec-WebSocket-Origin server-to-client
# [21:36] <AryehGregor> This seems to be broken: http://aryeh.name/tests-root/tests/submission/AryehGregor/reflection/reflection-forms.html
# [21:36] <Hixie> zcorpan: because Origin: is only defined for client-to-server, and because it was another way to prevent echo servers getting p0wned
# [21:37] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah, no diff for css changes
# [21:37] <AryehGregor> Oh.
# [21:37] <Hixie> anyone interested in taking over the pdf generation?
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# [21:48] <AryehGregor> So in Chrome 15, when I close all windows and reopen one, I no longer see a way to restore the tabs I had open in any window other than the last one closed.
# [21:48] <AryehGregor> Sigh?
# [21:48] <AryehGregor> I was relying on that.
# [21:48] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
# [21:48] <AryehGregor> They moved it to the lower right corner.
# [21:49] <AryehGregor> Works for me.
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# [22:03] <timeless> heh
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# [22:31] <jgraham> I assume the correct answer to "how often do you cook turkey" is "never, turkey is the blandest of meats and therefore not worth wasting your life on"
# [22:31] <TabAtkins> jgraham: You have never had a correctly-cooked turkey, I see.
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# [22:31] <TabAtkins> When done right, turkey is moist and flavorful and great.
# [22:32] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I am rather confident that there is nothing you can do to turkey to get over the basic problem that it is exceptionally bland meat
# [22:32] <TabAtkins> Look up Alton Brown's turkey recipes - the guy is a genius and his method has 100% success with everyone I know who's tried it.
# [22:32] <TabAtkins> jgraham: You're confidently wrong, then.
# [22:32] <Hixie> where do you stand on chicken?
# [22:32] <Philip`> Standing on chickens is cruel
# [22:32] <Hixie> (just trying to calibrate so i know how to respond)
# [22:33] <jgraham> Chicken is OK if you find a decent one
# [22:33] <Philip`> Oh, chicken, not chickens
# [22:33] <jgraham> Standing on chickens is what happens in inensive farming :(
# [22:33] <Hixie> ok i'm with tab then
# [22:33] <jgraham> *intensive
# [22:34] <jgraham> I remain skeptical that one could make turkey as nice as e.g. goose
# [22:34] <jgraham> One simply has a better raw ingredient
# [22:35] <TabAtkins> Never had goose, but I've had duck. Are they at all similar?
# [22:35] <jgraham> Somewhat
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# [22:35] <jgraham> It is certainly the closest comparison I can think of
# [22:35] <TabAtkins> Then I have personally cooked turkey that is as good as duck in a high-quality restaurant (from a pure meat perspective).
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# [22:39] <jgraham> Then I will withhold final judgement until I have tried this miracle recipe. But in the meantime I will continue to work under the hypothesis that the anglophone tradition of turkey for celebratory meals is a sad loss for gastronomy
# [22:39] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Come to my house for Christmas.
# [22:40] <TabAtkins> I'm not disagreeing with your hypothesis, though - most people cook *terrible* turkey.
# [22:40] <jgraham> That would make it hard to cook Christmas dinner at my house. Unless Christmas is like pixar releases and happens earlier in the US than anywhere else in the world
# [22:41] <jgraham> (I seriously recommend trying goose though. Properly cookd it can be delicious)
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# [22:43] <timeless> jgraham: the reason for turkey is that it's bigger and cheaper and feeds more
# [22:43] <timeless> geese are smaller, more expensive, take more effort and feed fewer
# [22:43] <jgraham> timeless: I know
# [22:44] <jgraham> Although the "take more effort" is wrong
# [22:44] <timeless> i think i've had duck once or twice at most, it's nice, but kind of like fish, rather delicate
# [22:44] <jgraham> Unless you are keeping them yourself, perhaps
# [22:44] <timeless> jgraham: more effort is wrt total effort to prepare sufficient to feed the same number of people
# [22:44] <jgraham> (although I understand geese are not that hard to keep)
# [22:45] * Ms2ger wonders if he should read Hixie's latest commit message as "Pretty iffy"
# [22:46] <jgraham> Possibly I am just so antisocial that I never need to feed more than about 8-10 people
# [22:46] <Ms2ger> 8-10? You must be extremely social
# [22:46] <timeless> how many geese?
# [22:47] <jgraham> timeless: I'm pretty dure I have done 8 people with one largish goose
# [22:47] <jgraham> *sure
# [22:48] <jgraham> Yes, the FAQ at http://www.clerkesgeese.com/FAQs.html agrees with me there
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# [22:49] <jgraham> Of course if US home portions are in the same ratio as US restaurant portions compared to european ones, you can probably divide by 1.5-2
# [22:50] * jgraham assumes they are not
# [22:50] <TabAtkins> I dunno, it's probably closer than not.
# [22:50] <TabAtkins> Though I've never eaten a euro home-cooked meal.
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# [22:54] <jgraham> If you are ever in the same toen as me then we will have to change that
# [22:54] <jgraham> *town
# [22:54] <jgraham> sigh
# [22:55] <Hixie> jgraham: dude if i ever have to feed more than like 5 people i order pizza
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# [22:57] <timeless> heh
# [22:57] <jgraham> Swedish pizza is... interesting. Kebab meat and bearnaise sauce is a popular topping
# [22:59] * moo-_- in Sweden right now
# [22:59] <moo-_-> jgraham: I prefer Kebab, bluecheese, pineapple and mayonase
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# [23:08] <jgraham> ugh
# [23:08] <jgraham> :)
# [23:09] <Hixie> can you not animate box-shadow with -webkit-transition?
# [23:09] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [23:09] <Hixie> can anyone come up with something you might animate based on details[open] ?
# [23:13] * jernoble is now known as jer|afk
# [23:13] <jgraham> I assume the height of the bit that appears isn't the answer you are looking for here
# [23:13] * AryehGregor votes for height
# [23:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You should be able to - <shadow> is a transitionable type.
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# [23:15] <TabAtkins> jgraham: That pizza sounds pretty good, actually.
# [23:15] <Hixie> am i doing it wrong? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1105
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# [23:16] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: You're just wrong.
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# [23:17] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: About the pizza or the shadow?
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# [23:17] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: the pizza.
# [23:17] <Hixie> about the shadow as well as far as i can tell :-P
# [23:17] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Why would I care about vaguely on-topic discussion? :)
# [23:17] * ^^^^^^^^^eighty4 is now known as eighty4
# [23:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Ah, I see. While <shadow> is an animatable type, the spec currently only defines text-shadow as an animatable property. I assume that's because box-shadow was dropped for a little while.
# [23:18] * TabAtkins could probably fix that.
# [23:18] <Hixie> lame
# [23:18] <TabAtkins> Ah, there's even a note that the list omits box-shadow.
# [23:18] <Hixie> you got any other ideas of what to animate? 'height' like AryehGregor suggested seems reasonable but hard to do properly since we can't animate to/from 'auto' and since the whole point of <details> is to change the height so UAs are probably already doing it.
# [23:19] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Rotate the marker.
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# [23:20] <Hixie> isn't that something that UAs should do also?
# [23:20] <Hixie> maybe i could animate the background or something
# [23:20] <Hixie> fade in the details
# [23:20] <Hixie> opacity, that might work
# [23:20] <annevk> opacity:0 > 1
# [23:20] <annevk> or the other way around
# [23:21] <annevk> I always forget what is transparent
# [23:21] <Hixie> i guess i have to animate a div inside it
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# [23:21] <TabAtkins> annevk: Fully opaque things aren't transparent.
# [23:23] <jgraham> It can't be said too often: not being able to transition to auto height is lame
# [23:24] <TabAtkins> Yus.
# [23:24] <jgraham> Also, so is pizza with bearnaise sauce
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# [23:25] <eighty4> Sorry for the nick changes earlier
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# [23:42] <Hixie> TabAtkins: dude this don't work neither! http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1106
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# [23:43] <jamesr> Hixie: that link tries to animate box-shadow
# [23:43] <Hixie> no?
# [23:44] <Hixie> details div { -webkit-transition: opacity 0.5s ease; opacity: 0; } details[open] div { box-shadow: black 0 0 1em; opacity: 1; }
# [23:44] <Hixie> it has a shadow appear, sure
# [23:44] <Hixie> but the opacity is what is changed dynamically
# [23:44] <jamesr> ah, i see
# [23:45] <annevk> prolly a bug?
# [23:45] <Hixie> yeah i guess you just can't animate with <details> in webkit
# [23:45] <Hixie> anyone else implement it?
# [23:46] <annevk> don't think so
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# [23:47] <Hixie> my opera build won't load live dom viewer, wtf
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# [23:59] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Oh, actually, yeah, that's probably true. Our <details> impl is pretty hacky. I think we do some manual rendertree hacking, so it's not surprising if some things break.
# Session Close: Tue Aug 16 00:00:00 2011

The end :)