/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-22 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  147. # [12:39] <annevk> "i think we dropped +xml knowledge because it broke sites" sad state of affairs that is :(
  148. # [12:40] <Ms2ger> Welcome to the web
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  173. # [14:05] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe the status boxes could have a field for http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13853
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  226. # [17:00] <jgraham> TabAtkins: "Does web work add complex to web?" is clearly a question about whether it is possible to form multi-protein complexes on spider's webs by carefully controlled application of energy ("work") to the structure ("web")
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  228. # [17:03] <Ms2ger> jgraham++
  229. # [17:04] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, I was mostly thinking about TR/, though
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  245. # [17:48] <annevk> Hixie: content type is including parameters arguably so I am not sure that is the correct term and it seems MIME type is somewhat incorrect (at least, thus argue the IETF folk)
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  247. # [18:00] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  248. # [18:00] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  249. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> Evening
  250. # [18:01] <Philip`> May this day bless you and your family, dglazkov!
  251. # [18:02] <dglazkov> :)
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  257. # [18:19] <jgraham> May your loins be blessed with many fruit?
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  283. # [19:27] <karlcow> annevk: http://backstage.soundcloud.com/2011/08/soundcloud-mobile-proxies/
  284. # [19:27] <karlcow> about CORS
  285. # [19:29] <annevk> someone should write a test suite
  286. # [19:30] <Ms2ger> We probably have one
  287. # [19:30] <Ms2ger> If you find it, I can probably get it submitted
  288. # [19:33] <annevk> I think the Gecko one uses a JavaScript server framework
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  297. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> Probably
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  299. # [19:57] <Hixie> annevk: well media type is just confusing
  300. # [19:57] <Hixie> annevk: maybe "contentType string"?
  301. # [19:57] <Hixie> annevk: it's not like this has any real meaning anyway
  302. # [19:57] <Hixie> annevk: it's not the type from the server, it's only barely the type the browser thinks the resource was, etc
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  304. # [20:03] <annevk> "resource type"?
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  306. # [20:03] <timeless> Ms2ger: ah, the hazards of writing long reviews
  307. # [20:03] * timeless is reading heycam's response
  308. # [20:03] <annevk> could maybe rename MIME type to resource type
  309. # [20:04] <timeless> (for the second time actually, the first was using Gmail.java, which hides all quoted bits)
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  312. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> timeless, mm, sending detailed feedback to D3E works better for that... You won't remember anything about your comments by the time you get a reply
  313. # [20:08] <timeless> Ms2ger: oh, heycam managed that too
  314. # [20:08] <timeless> i mean, i remembered vaguely being amused (when i read) about objects defying things
  315. # [20:08] <timeless> but i didn't really remember any of my comments in any useful level of detail
  316. # [20:09] <timeless> of course, the fact that my general buffer is probably at best 3 screens long, and each message i wrote was probably 30 didn't help
  317. # [20:09] <timeless> (and there were 5 messages0
  318. # [20:09] <timeless> s/0/)
  319. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> Yeah, that reply was quite the wall of text
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  321. # [20:10] <timeless> it was actually amazingly readable in Gmail.java when you consider the input
  322. # [20:10] * Quits: rabbi1 (~manjunath@49.200.68.45) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  323. # [20:11] <timeless> (there are minor issues w/ how Gmail.java strips quoted sections, so you can get unrelated paragraphs running into eachother)
  324. # [20:11] <timeless> (but really, all in all, amazingly readable)
  325. # [20:11] <timeless> but absolutely useless for trying to do DoC
  326. # [20:11] * timeless is using notepad for that
  327. # [20:11] * timeless used notepad to review the spec too
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  329. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> Pff, DoC
  330. # [20:15] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  331. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> Oh, LC ends tomorrow
  332. # [20:17] <timeless> on WebIDL?
  333. # [20:17] <timeless> grr
  334. # [20:17] <Hixie> annevk: resource type is fine by me
  335. # [20:17] * Ms2ger raises "I don't understand your grammar"
  336. # [20:18] <Hixie> annevk: MIME type is what everyone calls it, like URL. Don't listen to the Julians of the world, their pedancy is not useful.
  337. # [20:18] <Hixie> annevk: i agree that .contentType is not the document MIME type though, even though it looks like a MIME type
  338. # [20:18] <timeless> interface TimelessParsingWhatWG { DOMString onWebIDL?; };
  339. # [20:18] <timeless> grr, no, that fails
  340. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> DOMString? onWebIDL
  341. # [20:18] <timeless> yeah
  342. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> No
  343. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> attribute DOMString? onWebIDL
  344. # [20:19] <timeless> well, hrm, that's awkward
  345. # [20:19] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  346. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Did anybody raise an issue to drop the chapter about Java?
  347. # [20:20] <timeless> interface on { attribute DOMString? discussion; }; interface TimelessParsingWhatWg { attribute on WebIDL; };
  348. # [20:21] <timeless> we'll skip the discussion about using a the timeless module, because we wouldn't want any other groups to think there's a ghost of a chance of this supporting them
  349. # [20:21] <timeless> Ms2ger: but, that'
  350. # [20:21] * Joins: nimbu (~Adium@c-24-18-47-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  351. # [20:21] <timeless> s parsable, right? :)
  352. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> I... think so
  353. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> I mean, I understand the code, but I don't understand the grammar
  354. # [20:23] * timeless gets lost
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  356. # [20:29] <timeless> ooh
  357. # [20:29] * timeless reaches part 4
  358. # [20:30] <annevk> Hixie, it's not the specified one, but it's the determined one, no?
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  371. # [20:59] * timeless reaches part 5!
  372. # [20:59] <timeless> ooh, it only took me half an hour to read through the response to one section
  373. # [21:00] <timeless> that's not bad
  374. # [21:10] <timeless> so, wordpad claims my reply is 5 pages
  375. # [21:12] <timeless> outlook (which i unfortunately trust a bit more here) claims it's 15
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  378. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Who uploaded a contenteditable test to livedom?
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  382. # [21:35] <annevk> WHATWG Weekly will have to wait till tomorrow
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  388. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> Hixie, yt?
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  390. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, probably me.
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  394. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, so do you know about insertAdjacentHTML?
  395. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, not really.
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  399. # [22:13] <timeless> Ms2ger: ping
  400. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> Hi
  401. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> Do *you* know about insertAdjacentHTML? :)
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  403. # [22:15] <timeless> i could
  404. # [22:15] <timeless> i'll trade
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  406. # [22:16] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  407. # [22:17] <timeless> right, so, what about it?
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  412. # [22:25] <Hixie> annevk: vaguely the determined one, but only vaguely
  413. # [22:25] <Hixie> annevk: e.g. createDocument() has one
  414. # [22:25] <Hixie> annevk: as do error messages
  415. # [22:25] <Hixie> Ms2ger: here
  416. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#insertadjacenthtml
  417. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> Did you consider the case where the parent of target is a DocumentFragment?
  418. # [22:27] <Hixie> probably not
  419. # [22:28] <Hixie> doesn't seem to break in that case though
  420. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> ...HTML fragment parsing algorithm. The algorithm optionally takes as input an Element node, referred to as the context element...
  421. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> So in that case, the context element isn't actually an element, right?
  422. # [22:34] <Hixie> holy cow, the ietf changes to the websocket protocol have introduced a massive security hole
  423. # [22:34] <Hixie> the server no longer explicitly lists the origin!
  424. # [22:36] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.73) (Quit: dave_levin)
  425. # [22:39] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  426. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> SIGH: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2011JulSep/0035.html
  427. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> This is what happens when you try to make reasonable suggestions at the W3C.
  428. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> Well, let's see how it goes.
  429. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> I think HTML4 has a test suite, actually
  430. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> It would be hard for it to be a useful one.
  431. # [22:41] <Ms2ger> Well, it sure isn't useful
  432. # [22:41] * riven` is now known as riven
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  436. # [22:42] <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/Test/HTML401/tests/index.html
  437. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> This looks promising: https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-August/017738.html
  438. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> Nice, requires W3C login?
  439. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> To be fair, HTML5 has practically no useful tests either, other than in a few tiny areas.
  440. # [22:43] <timeless> Hixie: why is that shocking?
  441. # [22:43] <Ms2ger> I think there's a public place as well, but I can't find it
  442. # [22:43] <Hixie> timeless: i was told that the ietf would bring expert review to the protocol
  443. # [22:44] <Hixie> timeless: i knew that that wasn't true, but i didn't realise it would be so bad that they would actually introduce vulnerabilities
  444. # [22:44] <Ms2ger> Ah, http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Test/HTML401/current/tests/index.html
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  446. # [22:45] <Hixie> Ms2ger: that test suite makes unwarranted assumptions about the conformance requirements in html4
  447. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> Well sure
  448. # [22:46] <Ms2ger> I only pointed out its existence, I was expecting it to suck
  449. # [22:47] <Hixie> i could have sworn i subscribed to member-webapps-cvs or whatever it's called
  450. # [22:47] <Hixie> but i don't seem to get e-mail from it
  451. # [22:47] <Hixie> wtf
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  455. # [22:54] <timeless> so, wrt html4 test suite
  456. # [22:54] <timeless> if you want to blame someone
  457. # [22:54] <timeless> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Test/HTML401/current/tests/acknowledgements.html
  458. # [22:54] <timeless> "Tantek Çelik, who acted as senior mentor for this effort."
  459. # [22:54] <timeless> :)
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  461. # [23:01] <Hixie> no blame to be assigned
  462. # [23:02] <Hixie> tantek's the only one even tried (well, tantek, me, and a few others -- there have been several such efforts over the years)
  463. # [23:02] <Hixie> the problem is the spec sucks :-)
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  475. # [23:15] <Hixie> reminder to anyone who might be interested in giving talks about HTML5 to add yourself to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Presentations#Speakers
  476. # [23:15] <Hixie> i point people to that page pretty regularly
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  493. # [23:45] <Hixie> what's the right terminology for saying that a list should be sorted first by some key A, then breaking ties on some key B, and breaking further ties on some key C?
  494. # [23:47] <timeless> secondary/tertiary sorting?
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  496. # [23:47] <Hixie> complete this sentence: "Sort the list L "
  497. # [23:47] <jcranmer> it should be as if sorted by C then B then A using stable sorts
  498. # [23:48] <Hixie> there's no better terminology? bummer.
  499. # [23:48] <timeless> yeah, jcranmer 's text is correct
  500. # [23:48] <timeless> there's text for hashing
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  502. # [23:49] <jcranmer> it's more precise but I don't like it that much
  503. # [23:49] <timeless> in hashing, it's double hashing where you specify the second hash function
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  506. # [23:51] <karlcow> AryehGregor: I didn't reply to Liam, because I didn't think it would move forward the discussion.
  507. # [23:51] <timeless> Hixie: is your sorting going to specify how to handle unicode garbage? :)
  508. # [23:51] * timeless goes to look up the technical term
  509. # [23:51] <Hixie> no
  510. # [23:51] <Hixie> it's sorting the tasks that get queued during the processing of captions
  511. # [23:51] <Hixie> for video
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  515. # [23:54] <timeless> oh right
  516. # [23:54] <timeless> opera mobile *sucks* at dealing w/ large <textarea>s
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  518. # [23:57] <Philip`> Hixie: Sort by a lexicographic order on (A, B, C)
  519. # [23:57] <Hixie> it wouldn't be lexicographic, but more importantly, where is it defined what that means?
  520. # [23:57] <Philip`> Why not lexicographic?
  521. # [23:57] <Hixie> well A is a time, B is a position in another list, and C is creation order :-)
  522. # [23:58] <Hixie> no graphs to lexic, as it were
  523. # [23:58] <Philip`> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LexicographicOrder.html
  524. # [23:58] <Philip`> (Doesn't need to be anything to do with alphabets)
  525. # [23:58] <Hixie> i have no idea what that page is saying
  526. # [23:59] <Hixie> ok the wikipedia page clued me in
  527. # [23:59] <Hixie> what a confusing term to reuse
  528. # Session Close: Tue Aug 23 00:00:00 2011

The end :)