/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 23 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  4. # [00:01] <timeless> hi heycam
  5. # [00:01] <heycam> morning timeless
  6. # [00:01] <timeless> i have a longer response which i'm trying to paste
  7. # [00:01] <timeless> but i'm on the phone now
  8. # [00:02] <timeless> and i'll send another 1-8 messages
  9. # [00:02] <heycam> oh dear 8 messages? :)
  10. # [00:02] <Philip`> Hixie: Algebraists aren't necessarily known for non-confusingness
  11. # [00:03] <Philip`> but at least that particular term seems to only have a single definition in mathematics, so it's only unobvious and not ambiguous
  12. # [00:03] <timeless> main reply, 6 spun off items, and a review of the actual diff commit
  13. # [00:04] <timeless> plus an optional review of the current spec
  14. # [00:04] <Hixie> Philip`: well it would be ambiguous if one of the keys was a number
  15. # [00:04] <timeless> ok, so, maybe 2-9? :)
  16. # [00:04] <Hixie> Philip`: since lexical order for numbers (string definition) is not the same as lexical order for numbers (mathematical definition)
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  19. # [00:08] <Philip`> If it's a lexicographic order over a product of types, you have to say what order to use for each of those types (or assume it's obvious to readers, like numbers are in increasing order) - the lexicographicness doesn't matter to those types
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  35. # [00:34] <timeless> grr
  36. # [00:35] <timeless> Opera is trying to parse mail.google.com/mail/u/0/x/*/ as xml
  37. # [00:35] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.44) (Quit: [ UPP ] > all)
  38. # [00:35] <timeless> and gives me an error w/ a link to reparse as html
  39. # [00:35] <timeless> for each link i click through in gmail
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  41. # [00:37] <timeless> heycam: ok, the big email is outbound
  42. # [00:38] <heycam> timeless, thanks
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  44. # [00:38] <timeless> that just leaves me w/ the diff, the 6 subissues, and re-reviewing the entire document
  45. # [00:42] <timeless> heycam: a note on VCS commit blame churn...
  46. # [00:42] <timeless> </x:codeblock>
  47. # [00:42] <timeless> and similar tags should really be on their own line ;-)
  48. # [00:43] <heycam> timeless, that might result in some extra white space in the published document
  49. # [00:43] <timeless> really
  50. # [00:43] <timeless> ?
  51. # [00:43] <heycam> since it gets turned into a <pre>
  52. # [00:43] <timeless> yuck
  53. # [00:43] <heycam> maybe
  54. # [00:43] <heycam> can't remember exactly what my xslt does
  55. # [00:43] <timeless> get a better preprocessor :)
  56. # [00:44] <timeless> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/webapi/WebIDL/Overview.xml.diff?r1=1.341;r2=1.342;f=h
  57. # [00:44] <timeless> near Line 5765 results.numbers.length; <span clas
  58. # [00:45] <timeless> i feel bad
  59. # [00:45] <timeless> the <must> in there ruins how <take(s)> should be used :(
  60. # [00:46] <heycam> timeless, yeah I noticed that and fixed it up in a following change
  61. # [00:46] <timeless> oh good
  62. # [00:47] <timeless> sorry about that (it happens in a bunch of spots)
  63. # [00:47] <timeless> this is where a dvcs is useful
  64. # [00:47] <timeless> commit changes for person
  65. # [00:47] <timeless> commit fixes for changes for person
  66. # [00:47] <timeless> commit further fixes for changes for changes...
  67. # [00:47] <timeless> merge
  68. # [00:47] <timeless> if you need even more changes, you go back to the premerged version and make them there
  69. # [00:48] <timeless> and when you want to show someone what you did for them, you can send either the leaf, or the delta between their origin point and their leaf
  70. # [00:48] <timeless> (no one does this)
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  72. # [00:52] <timeless> isn't this illegal:
  73. # [00:52] <timeless> [TreatUndefinedAs=Null] attribute DOMString? owner;
  74. # [00:52] <timeless> oh, no, that's TreatNulllAs
  75. # [00:52] * timeless sighs
  76. # [00:52] <timeless> terribly confusing :)
  77. # [00:52] * timeless should go home and sleep or something
  78. # [00:53] <heycam> :)
  79. # [00:53] <timeless> (when you get online, it's a hint that i've been at work too long)
  80. # [00:58] <timeless> ooh, i'm in the credits!
  81. # [00:59] <timeless> right, i've reached the end of the diff
  82. # [01:01] <timeless> ok, i'll send my comments about the diff, and then i'm giving up for the day
  83. # [01:01] <timeless> that leaves [x1..x6] + rereview
  84. # [01:01] <timeless> there's no way i can possibly do the rereview today, or really tomorrow
  85. # [01:02] <timeless> given it took me an entire week to do the initial review, and most of today just to review your reply to my review..
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  87. # [01:03] <timeless> alright, sent
  88. # [01:03] <timeless> have a good day
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  92. # [01:10] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you still want cssElementMap right?
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  94. # [01:15] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you still want cssElementMap right?
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  96. # [01:18] <Hixie> i love, in "Detecting and Resolving Circular Relationships", that in the prose it confidently states "These relationships can be easily and reliably detected and resolved" but in the issue marker below that it says "Someone else needs to review this and make sure that I'm not missing any cycles"
  97. # [01:18] <Hixie> (http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#element-reference)
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  107. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yes, I do.
  108. # [01:39] <Hixie> k
  109. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The issue will disappear in time, leaving only my confident declaration.
  110. # [01:40] <Hixie> any chance i could get you to change "represents" in "represents a paint source" to "provides"?
  111. # [01:41] <Hixie> "represents" has a defined meaning in the html spec so it is a little confusing in some of these sentences
  112. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> Sure.
  113. # [01:41] <Hixie> awesome
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  115. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> done
  116. # [01:43] <Hixie> csselementmap isn't in the w3c copy of html, should "provides a paint source" be?
  117. # [01:43] <Hixie> or should i add csselementmap too?
  118. # [01:43] <Hixie> (i don't recall why it's not included)
  119. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Yes. The intention currently is that a display:none <img> provides a paint source.
  120. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> And sure, since it's not exposing any API or anything, might as well.
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  122. # [01:44] * Hixie is confused by the two most recent lines from TabAtkins
  123. # [01:44] <Hixie> come again?
  124. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> The clause that invokes paint sources in the Image Values spec is applicable to more than just things assigned to the csselementmap.
  125. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> Since "provides a paint source" isn't an API detail (like csselementmap is), it shouldn't arouse any complaints if it's put in the spec.
  126. # [01:46] <Hixie> ah, ok. so you're saying paint source in w3c, csselementmap not
  127. # [01:46] <Hixie> ok
  128. # [01:46] <Hixie> sounds good, that's what i had done
  129. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> I don't care if you put csselementmap in. I'm just saying that paint source is totally fine.
  130. # [01:47] <Hixie> ok done: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6519&to=6520
  131. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> Looks good.
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  142. # [02:16] <Hixie> AryehGregor: see the widget where you pick people to share with in G+ for a use case of contenteditable="" that might be worth bearing in mind
  143. # [02:17] <Hixie> AryehGregor: also re http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12834#c10 -- it's not my scripts, i just use a bugzilla query of open bugs, so closed bugs don't get matched by the query :-)
  144. # [02:17] <Hixie> that's why i don't see comments on closed bugs
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  276. # [10:02] <nlogax> Hixie: are you there?
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  282. #
  283. # Session Start: Tue Aug 23 15:06:17 2011
  284. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  285. # [15:06] * Now talking in #whatwg
  286. # [15:06] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  287. # [15:06] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  288. # [15:06] -wolfe.freenode.net:#whatwg- [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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  291. # [15:10] <krijn> Ms2ger: back, sorry! :)
  292. # [15:11] <krijn> My mom was showing somebody how fuses work.
  293. # [15:11] <krijn> She really shouldn't
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  305. # [15:32] <Ms2ger> Heh
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  326. # [16:14] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Technically that part of the spec is a SHOULD
  327. # [16:14] <jgraham> I'm not sure if we ever come to a conclusion about testing SHOULDs
  328. # [16:14] <zcorpan> annevk: wonder how many you've managed to confuse on events
  329. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> That's a bug in the spec I should file, then
  330. # [16:18] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I suppose one should argue that the spec should allow you to open a text/plain document in an external editor if you like
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  332. # [16:20] <annevk> zcorpan, per matjas the fault is HTML4: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.3
  333. # [16:21] * Joins: realityking (~rouven@xdsl-87-78-26-122.netcologne.de)
  334. # [16:22] <realityking> I'm looking for a HTML5 parser for php and the only thing that looks promising so far is html5lib
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  336. # [16:22] <realityking> but the php port hasn't been updated for 2 years
  337. # [16:23] <realityking> anyone know how mature it is or if there's a better alternative?
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  342. # [16:24] <annevk> I haven't seen anything
  343. # [16:27] <jgraham> realityking: I don't really know anything about the PHP port, sorry. It won't have changed to match the current spec perfectly
  344. # [16:27] <jgraham> It might be slow depending on what your needs are
  345. # [16:27] <zcorpan> annevk: woah
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  363. # [17:01] <Ms2ger`> annevk, I know... That's why I don't see us running XHR tests any time soon
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  377. # [17:41] <realityking> jgraham, annevk: thanks for the info
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  379. # [17:48] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  380. # [17:48] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  381. # [17:49] <dglazkov> and evening, Ms2ger`
  382. # [17:49] <Ms2ger`> Good afternoon, dglazkov
  383. # [17:49] <dglazkov> doh
  384. # [17:50] <Ms2ger`> And may this day bless you and your family, to quote Philip`
  385. # [17:50] <dglazkov> and fruit in the pants, to qoute jgraham
  386. # [17:54] <annevk> :)
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  450. # [19:14] <gsnedders> realityking: the PHP parser doesn't perfectly match the current spec, but should work reasonably well on not-overly long documents (parts of PHP's DOM impl have O(n^2) perf, so it hurts)
  451. # [19:14] <realityking> gsnedders: usage would be to parse articles to a DOM in a CMS so certain attributes/elements can be filtered on save
  452. # [19:14] <realityking> so documents shouldn't be too long
  453. # [19:14] <realityking> but I am slightly worried about it not perfectly matching the spec
  454. # [19:14] <realityking> I wish the PHP devs would just get a proper parser into the core...
  455. # [19:14] <realityking> thanks for your help tough
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  457. # [19:14] <gsnedders> realityking: Basically, when there were major changes to the spec a couple of years ago, I spent what seemed like an eternity making the tedious changes to the Python version, and never had the motivation to make them in PHP too. Especially seeming I ended up never using it in the end.
  458. # [19:14] <gsnedders> (around script parsing, that was)
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  460. # [19:15] <realityking> btw, is there any open source c library available for html5 parsing?
  461. # [19:16] <gsnedders> takkaria wrote one a few years back. No idea if it is maintained.
  462. # [19:16] <Ms2ger`> There will be a C++ one once hsivonen gets around to packaging his
  463. # [19:16] <Ms2ger`> Maybe even in this decade
  464. # [19:16] <realityking> :)
  465. # [19:17] <Hixie> foolip: previously, cues that were found to have been missed when the browser next checked for cues were just dropped on the floor
  466. # [19:17] <Hixie> foolip: i fixed that
  467. # [19:19] <gsnedders> Ms2ger`: You're hopeful. :)
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  470. # [19:20] <Ms2ger`> One needs to be in this business... There's so little hope for the platform itself already ;)
  471. # Session Close: Tue Aug 23 19:24:11 2011
  472. #
  473. # Session Start: Tue Aug 23 19:24:11 2011
  474. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  475. # [19:24] * Disconnected
  476. # [19:25] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  477. # [19:25] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  478. # [19:25] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  479. # [19:25] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  481. # [19:29] <Ms2ger`> gsnedders, so I hear you're good at that :)
  482. # [19:29] * Quits: danj (~danj@s15372200.onlinehome-server.info) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  483. # [19:30] <gsnedders> Ms2ger`: Don't believe *her*. She lies, or so I'm told. But there again, testing *is* the future…
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  491. # [19:37] <Hixie> i love the copyright notice on http://dev.w3.org/2011/webrtc/editor/webrtc.html
  492. # [19:37] <Hixie> it's the most explicit statement of hypocrisy i've ever seen the w3c make
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  494. # [19:38] <Ms2ger`> Wow, that must be quite a thing
  495. # [19:38] * Ms2ger` checks
  496. # [19:38] <Ms2ger`> >.<
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  498. # [19:38] <Hixie> (amusingly, all the changes i could find are actually edits that made the spec worse)
  499. # [19:39] <Ms2ger`> Following a long tradition of copyrighting junk, then
  500. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> karlcow, I'm not clear on who exactly has influence on the decision here, or who's going to make it, so I thought I'd reply to be on the safe side. How exactly will a decision get made, and who has a say here? Is there anyone in particular I have to convince or can ignore?
  501. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> Hixie, which widget where you pick people to share with?
  502. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> Hixie, and okay.
  503. # [19:42] <Hixie> when you do a post, the one where you pick the circles
  504. # [19:42] <karlcow> I'm trying to not focus on who but what are the requirements and then see what we can propose to achieve these requirements.
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  506. # [19:44] <karlcow> liam could have had a real proposal by saying we need to identify keywords, code, etc. I do not think the grammar of HTML whatever version is a guarantee, but the documentation of classname on HTML is a lot more for the purpose of the spec is what is needed. At the same time it was never really required in the past.
  507. # [19:44] <karlcow> so it's why the argument is a bit MOOT
  508. # [19:45] <karlcow> too much talk, not enough how-do-we-do-it
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  513. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> Hixie, which part is contenteditable? I don't see it.
  514. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> (too much div soup!)
  515. # [19:55] <Hixie> oh i don't know if it's actually implemented as contenteditable (though i can't see how else it could be sanely done)
  516. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> I don't see any part that looks editable.
  517. # [19:56] <Hixie> i just mean the concept of a control that contains both editable text or immutable "chips"
  518. # [19:56] <Hixie> let me get you a screenshot
  519. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> Which part of the text is editable?
  520. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
  521. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> Right.
  522. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> It's an input, actually.
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  524. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> They somehow cleverly make it not look like one.
  525. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> But the non-editable stuff is actually not part of the editable area at all, it's just sitting next to it.
  526. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Still, this is what <span contenteditable=false> is for, yea.h
  527. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> yeah.
  528. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Although that's a huge PITA to spec/implement correctly, it adds corner cases to *everything*.
  529. # [19:58] <Hixie> crap gotta go. bbiab with screenshots.
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  558. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Hmm. When I customize my sync preferences in Chrome and hit OK, it waits for a long time with a little spinner thing. I wonder whether it's frozen or actually doing something.
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  566. # [21:17] <annevk> Hixie, seems to be within their right
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  568. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> Hixie, yeah, I don't see anything wrong with that copyright notice.
  569. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> They're reproducing the original notice and making the copyright status clear.
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  582. # [21:56] * timeless ponders
  583. # [21:57] <timeless> is there an easy way to find out which version of a document @w3 is the one for a given TR?
  584. # [21:57] <timeless> or LC or whatever
  585. # [21:58] <Ms2ger`> Mm?
  586. # [21:58] <timeless> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/webapi/WebIDL/Overview.xml?r1=1.353;f=h#rev1.353
  587. # [21:58] <timeless> i've decided to compare 1.339 to tip
  588. # [21:58] <timeless> but i'm not sure if that's the right choice
  589. # [21:59] <Ms2ger`> No way to do that in general, but 339 sounds right
  590. # [22:00] <karlcow> timeless: do you mean which revision number has been published into TR/ space?
  591. # [22:00] <timeless> karlcow: i'm pretty sure if i did, i wouldn't need to ask :)
  592. # [22:00] <karlcow> hey?
  593. # [22:01] <timeless> oh
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  595. # [22:01] <timeless> yes, sorry, i misread your question
  596. # [22:01] <karlcow> :)
  597. # [22:01] <timeless> yes, that's what i'm trying to get
  598. # [22:01] * timeless misread `mean` as `know`
  599. # [22:01] * timeless has no idea how
  600. # [22:01] <karlcow> no idea if it's tracked, but that could be useful indeed for future version.
  601. # [22:02] <karlcow> there could be even a link of the diff between the tip and the published rev number
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  605. # [22:04] <timeless> Ms2ger`: interface screwy { attribute DOMString getter; };
  606. # [22:04] <timeless> there's no harm in that, right?
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  608. # [22:05] <Ms2ger`> In what?
  609. # [22:05] <timeless> that attribute name
  610. # [22:05] <jgraham> Don't think so
  611. # [22:05] <Ms2ger`> You probably need _getter
  612. # [22:06] * timeless will have to give it as input to the spec and see what comes out
  613. # [22:07] <timeless> btw, how was the earthquake (to whomever it may concern)
  614. # [22:07] <nimbu> it was a GOOD ONE
  615. # [22:07] * nimbu lives on the west coast
  616. # [22:07] <timeless> nimbu: `the only good earthquake is one too far away from me to be noticed`? :)
  617. # [22:07] <aho> so, spilt your coffee? :)
  618. # [22:08] <nimbu> timeless: exactly
  619. # [22:09] <timeless> …
  620. # [22:09] <timeless> ...
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  622. # [22:09] * timeless ponders
  623. # [22:09] <timeless> Ms2ger / jgraham : ... / …
  624. # [22:10] <timeless> + <pre class='syntax'><i>return-type</i> <i>identifier</i>([<em>extended-attributes</em>] <i>type</i> <i>identifier</i>, [<em>extended-attributes</em>] <i>type</i> <i>identifier</i>, …);</pre>
  625. # [22:10] <timeless> + <pre class='syntax'><i>return-type</i> <i>identifier</i>(<i>type</i><em>...</em> <i>identifier</i>);
  626. # [22:10] <timeless> +<i>return-type</i> <i>identifier</i>(<i>type</i> <i>identifier</i>, <i>type</i><em>...</em> <i>identifier</i>);</pre>
  627. # [22:10] * timeless ponders
  628. # [22:11] <timeless> i guess the last two lines are actually focused on the ellipsis
  629. # [22:11] <jgraham> I think I was wrong
  630. # [22:11] <jgraham> But I haven't quite proved it yet
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  644. # [22:38] <timeless> oh
  645. # [22:38] <timeless> interface in {};
  646. # [22:38] <timeless> is that likely to cause pain for people? :)
  647. # [22:39] <timeless> .. probably not, i guess
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  651. # [22:53] <dglazkov> posted some stuff to read for y'all: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JulSep/0975.html
  652. # [22:55] <timeless> * { visibility: hidden; } code, .syntax { visibility: visible !important; }
  653. # [22:55] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.93.245) (Quit: miketaylr)
  654. # [22:55] <timeless> is a good way to proofread stuff :)
  655. # [22:55] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@207.239.83.130)
  656. # [22:56] <timeless> code, code > *, .syntax, .syntax > * { visibility: visible !important; }
  657. # [22:56] <timeless> works better :(
  658. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> Hehe.
  659. # [23:02] * rniwa is now known as rniwa|sfo-termin
  660. # [23:02] * rniwa|sfo-termin is now known as rniwa|sfo-term3
  661. # [23:04] <timeless> well, both proved what i needed, but the latter showed me more stuff to review :(
  662. # [23:04] <timeless> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1308553
  663. # [23:04] <timeless> TabAtkins: any guesses how i got that?
  664. # [23:05] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.22.61) (Quit: othermaciej)
  665. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> A regex that looks for "an [aeiou]"?
  666. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Or I guess the other way round.
  667. # [23:05] <timeless> `can i`
  668. # [23:06] <timeless> i did it the old fashioned way, for each (letter not in aeiou) find ` an {letter}`
  669. # [23:06] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  670. # [23:06] <timeless> (using firefox)
  671. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Bah. Use a regex text editor. That would have been slightly easier. ^_^
  672. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> /an [^aeiou]/
  673. # [23:07] <timeless> TabAtkins: those fail on ` an <b>car</b>`
  674. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Get one that understands HTML as well.
  675. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> (I don't know if one exists.)
  676. # [23:07] * timeless chuckles
  677. # [23:07] <timeless> emacs might count
  678. # [23:07] <timeless> word probably does count
  679. # [23:07] <timeless> but one wouldn't typically call either a text editor
  680. # [23:07] <timeless> the former is an operating system
  681. # [23:07] <timeless> the latter is a word processor
  682. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> Alternately: copypasta from the browser to a text file, *then* search. Markup is lost.
  683. # [23:08] * timeless nods
  684. # [23:09] * timeless will actually ask Word what it thinks of the document
  685. # [23:09] <timeless> (word tends to do a good job of drawing green squiglies)
  686. # [23:09] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  687. # [23:09] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-71-198-169-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  688. # [23:10] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.213)
  689. # [23:10] * eric_carlson is now known as ericc|away
  690. # [23:10] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3) (Quit: hij1nx)
  691. # [23:11] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-dzpejlpiwifuoyut) (Quit: KillerX)
  692. # [23:11] <Philip`> /an (<[^>]*>)*[^b-df-hj-nptv-z]/ ?
  693. # [23:11] <timeless> Philip`: that fails `can i` :)
  694. # [23:11] <Philip`> /\ban (<[^>]*>)*[^b-df-hj-nptv-z]/ ?
  695. # [23:12] <timeless> that might work
  696. # [23:12] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-stvsnavbscbfvaqe)
  697. # [23:12] * timeless thinks it's more trouble than it's worth
  698. # [23:13] <timeless> does that fail ` an <em><a>foo` ?
  699. # [23:13] <timeless> oh, you have another * there
  700. # [23:13] <timeless> it might fail ` an <em> <a> foo` :)
  701. # [23:13] <Philip`> Only weirdos would write markup like that :-p
  702. # [23:14] <timeless> also, that probably fails any case of <a foo="bar>fp">
  703. # [23:14] <timeless> and yes, the author in question *does* use unencoded >'s
  704. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> Unencoded > is the best. Much eaiser to read.
  705. # [23:15] * Joins: timeless_ (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless)
  706. # [23:15] * Quits: timeless (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless) (Disconnected by services)
  707. # [23:15] * timeless_ is now known as timeless
  708. # [23:15] <timeless> s/eais/eas/
  709. # [23:15] <timeless> s/eais/easi/
  710. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> eaiesr
  711. # [23:16] <timeless> (it's hard to correct what i can't see..)
  712. # [23:16] <Philip`> /\ban (<[^>]*>)*(?!html|http|href|hgroup|rt|rp|li|xml|svg|hour)[b-df-hj-np-tv-z]/i
  713. # [23:17] <Philip`> That's less broken and has less false positives
  714. # [23:17] <Philip`> and finds a few errors in the HTML5 spec
  715. # [23:17] <timeless> <em>an ...
  716. # [23:17] <timeless> otoh
  717. # [23:17] <timeless> if it finds errors in the html5 spec, then it's a win!
  718. # [23:18] <Philip`> /\ban/ matches "<em>an"
  719. # [23:18] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces0095.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
  720. # [23:19] <timeless> yeah
  721. # [23:19] <timeless> but technically you don't want to
  722. # [23:19] <timeless> c<em>an
  723. # [23:19] <timeless> not sure when you'd hit that, but..
  724. # [23:19] <Philip`> "<dt>An <code>hr</code> element</dt>"
  725. # [23:19] <Philip`> Only weirdos use markup in the middle of words :-p
  726. # [23:19] <timeless> wanna do a search in html5 for that? :)
  727. # [23:19] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces0095.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  728. # [23:19] <Hixie> annevk, AryehGregor: nothing legally wrong with it. It's just hypocritical is all.
  729. # [23:21] <timeless> code, code > *, .syntax, .syntax > *, .idlstring, .esstring, .grammar { visibility: hidden !important; } * { visibility: default; }
  730. # [23:21] <timeless> do a search for `"`
  731. # [23:21] <Philip`> Lots of <var>index</var>th and <code>Document</code>s etc
  732. # [23:21] <timeless> :)
  733. # [23:21] <Philip`> but anyway, false positives don't hurt much :-)
  734. # [23:21] * timeless is trying to decide if any of these `"`s should be tagged somehow
  735. # [23:22] <timeless> depends how long your document is :)
  736. # [23:22] <timeless> a colleague passed around a screen shot of a dialog from MS Word
  737. # [23:22] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  738. # [23:22] <timeless> the dialog was Word's "I give up, there are too many errors in this spec"
  739. # [23:22] <Philip`> HTML5 is pretty long, and my earlier regexp only finds 44 matches
  740. # [23:22] <timeless> one conclusion: spec isn't written by native speakers
  741. # [23:22] <timeless> alternate: spec is too long
  742. # [23:23] <Hixie> AryehGregor: do you have a mac? another example of contenteditable is the native date format editor (http://junkyard.damowmow.com/494)
  743. # [23:23] <Philip`> which was few enough that I gave up adding exceptions to the list
  744. # [23:23] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  745. # [23:23] <timeless> ok :)
  746. # [23:23] <timeless> Hixie: i remember that widget
  747. # [23:24] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  748. # [23:25] <Philip`> Hixie: Do you want bug reports of phrases like "an hostile" and "an platform array object" and "an global" and "an published" and "an JavaScript" and "an SYNTAX_ERROR"?
  749. # [23:25] <Hixie> sure
  750. # [23:25] <Hixie> one bug for all ideally
  751. # [23:25] <Philip`> and "an VideoTrackList"
  752. # [23:26] <Hixie> if you could just paste the actual markup in the bug that would be ideal
  753. # [23:26] <Hixie> so i can just search for that
  754. # [23:26] <Hixie> but if you don't have it that's fine
  755. # [23:26] <timeless> code, code > *, .syntax, .syntax > *, .idlstring, .idlvalue, .esstring, .grammar, .sym { visibility: hidden !important; } * { visibility: default; }
  756. # [23:26] <timeless> ended up working for my purposes
  757. # [23:26] <Philip`> I can paste the regexp :-)
  758. # [23:27] <timeless> heh
  759. # [23:27] <Hixie> if it's a regexp against the markup that would be perfect
  760. # [23:27] <Hixie> i can just stick it in my build script
  761. # [23:27] <Hixie> to catch future errors
  762. # [23:27] <timeless> woohoo, automation!
  763. # [23:28] <Hixie> anyone know if there's a way to renumber a screen in screen(1)?
  764. # [23:28] <timeless> http://brainscraps.wikidot.com/screnum
  765. # [23:28] <timeless> in short, `yes`
  766. # [23:29] * timeless opts not to decode the code
  767. # [23:29] * Quits: hta (~hta@c213-89-141-213.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  768. # [23:30] <Hixie> yeah that code is weird
  769. # [23:30] <timeless> regexps are much saner than shell
  770. # [23:30] <Hixie> seems to involve nested screen sessions
  771. # [23:30] <timeless> screen -l = list screens more or less iirc
  772. # [23:31] <timeless> screen -x = attach and share a screen session in case it's already attached (don't disconnect the currently attached clients)
  773. # [23:31] <Hixie> aha, ^A : number <n>
  774. # [23:31] <timeless> but yeah, it does do stuff in a screen session
  775. # [23:32] <timeless> i suspect that's to avoid damaging your console or something
  776. # [23:32] <timeless> or poisoning the session with your dimensions or who knows
  777. # [23:32] <Hixie> nice
  778. # [23:32] <Hixie> it works
  779. # [23:32] <Hixie> ^A :number 2
  780. # [23:32] <Hixie> swaps the current window with window #2
  781. # [23:33] <hober> nice
  782. # [23:33] * Quits: rniwa|sfo-term3 (~rniwa@207.239.83.130) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  783. # [23:34] <timeless> heycam: is there a rule you use for <foo attrib="bar"> v. <foo attrib='bar'> ?
  784. # [23:34] <heycam> timeless, in the source? no, just depends on my mood.
  785. # [23:34] <timeless> ok :)
  786. # [23:34] <heycam> most single quotes though I think?
  787. # [23:34] <timeless> i believe so
  788. # [23:35] <heycam> I would not accept a patch that made them consistent :)
  789. # [23:35] <timeless> i think you've reached the point where it wouldn't cost much to standardize on ''
  790. # [23:35] <timeless> not?
  791. # [23:35] <timeless> that's ok, i haven't sent patches anywhere in a while :)
  792. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> My rule is to use " when my hands are on home row, and ' when a hand is on the arrows and it would be inconvenient to hit shift.
  793. # [23:35] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13879 - I think that's enough exceptions
  794. # [23:36] * Hixie hopes that regexp is in a format grep accepts...
  795. # [23:36] <Hixie> let's see...
  796. # [23:36] <timeless> heh
  797. # [23:36] <timeless> w/ Hixie ?! ?
  798. # [23:36] <Philip`> 'ack' accepts it
  799. # [23:37] <Philip`> I expect anything non-Perl would be unhappy with (?!...)
  800. # [23:37] <timeless> grr, this irc client catches ctrl-tab as tab as tab-complete
  801. # [23:37] <Philip`> I suppose one problem is this doesn't cope with newlines after "an"
  802. # [23:38] <timeless> s/ /\s/; s!/i!/im! ?
  803. # [23:38] <timeless> or something like that, maybe sprinkle in a + and perhaps escape the backslash..
  804. # [23:39] <Philip`> Then you need a grep-like tool that doesn't process line-by-line, but does print enough context for you to find each match
  805. # [23:40] <timeless> w/ perl you could print $. or something (there's a line accumulator floating around, i can't remember if that's it)
  806. # [23:40] <timeless> actually, that might not do the right thing
  807. # [23:40] * timeless ponders
  808. # [23:40] <timeless> but yeah, it gets painful
  809. # [23:40] <timeless> you can capture (.{200}) before and after and print them :)
  810. # [23:41] <Hixie> can you see what's wrong with this other than the newline thing you mentioned?:
  811. # [23:41] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  812. # [23:41] <Hixie> perl -ne 'print "$.: $_" if /\ban(<[^>]*>)*(?!(http|https|href|hgroup|rt|rp|li|xml|svg|hour|hr|xhtml|xslt|xbl|nntp|m[ions]|mtext|merror|h[1-6]|xmlns|xpath|s|x|sgml|huang|srgb|rsa)\b|html)[b-df-hj-np-tv-z]/i' source | perl -lpe 'print "\nPossible article problems:" if $. == 1'
  813. # [23:41] <Hixie> i'm getting way too many false positives
  814. # [23:41] <Hixie> e.g. it matches:10: ! - element, attribute, content model, and interface indexes
  815. # [23:41] <Philip`> You need at least a space or a \s+ after the "an"
  816. # [23:41] <Hixie> oh oops
  817. # [23:41] <Hixie> copy pasta
  818. # [23:41] <timeless> yeah, blame your web browser :)
  819. # [23:41] <Hixie> that's better
  820. # [23:42] <Hixie> awesome
  821. # [23:42] <Hixie> thanks
  822. # [23:42] <Hixie> i added it to my build script
  823. # [23:43] <Hixie> will fix errors later, i'm in the middle of an edit
  824. # [23:43] <timeless> what does it say that i correctly remembered $. -- i don't use it, and haven't touched perl in months?
  825. # [23:43] * timeless sighs
  826. # [23:43] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@94.197.127.37.threembb.co.uk)
  827. # [23:43] <Hixie> i use $. quite often
  828. # [23:44] <timeless> i suspect the last time i did was on my text to html/atom script
  829. # [23:44] <Hixie> Philip`: if you figure out a way to make this work for multiline stuff while still being a short script let me know, i could use such magic in other efforts
  830. # [23:44] <timeless> which was probably a couple of years ago
  831. # [23:44] <Philip`> I'm assuming everyone pronounces HTML as "aitch tee em ell", not as "hotmeal" or similar
  832. # [23:44] * jgraham is very suspicious of regexps to prase phonetics using the rule "all vowels plus some listed exceptions"
  833. # [23:44] <timeless> Hixie: are you on a memory constrained system?
  834. # [23:45] <jgraham> *parse
  835. # [23:45] <timeless> if not, you could go the mxr line counting approach
  836. # [23:45] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
  837. # [23:45] * jgraham assumes Hixie doesn't have an infinte amount of ticker tape
  838. # [23:45] <timeless> and capture your context and replace all line feeds up to it and then count that replacement
  839. # [23:45] <Hixie> timeless: yes, but more importantly i can write the script as a multiline one without help, i just can't work out a way to do a one-liner to do this :-)
  840. # [23:45] <Hixie> if i had infinite ram i'd just do the regexps against the whole file
  841. # [23:46] <timeless> i can imagine a way that cheats a bit
  842. # [23:46] <timeless> takes the file, and each time it encounters an<tags>{linebreak} it swaps the {linebreak} and an<tags>
  843. # [23:47] <timeless> and then applies the rule to that resulting stream
  844. # [23:47] <Hixie> there are many trivial ways to do it if you can write more than one line of code :-P
  845. # [23:47] <Hixie> the point is that this is currently a -ne perl one-liner
  846. # [23:48] <timeless> oh, you have access to variables in -ne
  847. # [23:48] <timeless> you can easily do:
  848. # [23:48] <Philip`> perl -le '@_=<>; for $i (0..$#_) { $_="$_[$i]$_[$i+1]"; print "$i: $_" if /\ban\s+etcetcetc/im }' source
  849. # [23:48] <timeless> $_ = $a.$_ if $a; $a = "an" if s/an$//;
  850. # [23:48] <Philip`> (Surely not the best way but it seems to work)
  851. # [23:48] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  852. # [23:49] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~ZombieL@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  853. # [23:49] <timeless> grr, don't forget to clear $a in that first if :)
  854. # [23:49] <Hixie> lordy
  855. # [23:49] <Hixie> you guys give perl a bad name :-P
  856. # [23:52] <Philip`> One of my variables had an alphanumeric name - it could have been worse
  857. # [23:52] <timeless> heh
  858. # [23:53] <timeless> > The following changes were made since the previous Windows cumulative time zone update:
  859. # [23:53] <Philip`> perl -le '@_=<>; for $i (0..$#_) { $_="$_[$i]$_[$i+1]"; print "$i: $_" if --$| and /\ban\s+etcetcetc/im }' source
  860. # [23:53] <timeless> > Turkey Standard Time: A new Windows time zone was created: Turkey Standard Time. The display name is "(UTC+2:00) Istanbul." The government of Turkey has decided to change the 2011 DST schedule. It will start on Monday March 28 instead of Sunday March 27. "Istanbul" was removed from the display name of the "(UTC+2:00) Athens, Bucharest, Istanbul" time zone.
  861. # [23:53] <Philip`> That'll stop it reporting each line twice
  862. # [23:54] <Philip`> Oh, but I suppose it'll break if 'an' is at the end of a second line, so ignore that
  863. # [23:54] <timeless> > Egypt Standard Time [Display Name "(UTC+2:00) Cairo"]: The government of Egypt has canceled daylight saving time.
  864. # [23:54] * timeless chuckles
  865. # [23:55] <timeless> ooh, Newfoundland is -3:30
  866. # [23:56] <timeless> i didn't know i could get a half hour time zone w/o leaving this hemisphere
  867. # [23:56] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96)
  868. # [23:57] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  869. # [23:58] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  870. # Session Close: Wed Aug 24 00:00:00 2011

The end :)