/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 26 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <roc> jamesr_: "it just doesn't compare to native code, and the fancy things "real" compression algorithms do" is not really true now
  4. # [00:01] <jamesr_> depends on your browser
  5. # [00:01] <jamesr_> and what threading model you want
  6. # [00:02] * Joins: KillerX_ (~anant@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com)
  7. # [00:02] <roc> browsers that support WebGL tend to have modern JS engines with typed arrays and specialization that works well for tight bit-banging loops
  8. # [00:02] <roc> however, using UTF-8 that way is a cool idea anyway
  9. # [00:05] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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  11. # [00:05] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  12. # [00:06] * Quits: timeless (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless) (Quit: Page closed)
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  14. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Alex has retracted his suggestion for this particular API. In general, though, many people reach for an API when they should be doing an <input>.
  15. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Like DAP's Contacts API, or even Geolocation.
  16. # [00:08] <smaug____> doing <input> ?
  17. # [00:08] <smaug____> huh
  18. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> <input type=contacts>, for example.
  19. # [00:09] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@bas4-kitchener06-1128762076.dsl.bell.ca)
  20. # [00:09] <smaug____> fortunately speech is not going to be bound specifically to input or other form elements
  21. # [00:10] <smaug____> <input type=contact> would make sense, if it would read data from "contacts"
  22. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Yes, exactly.
  23. # [00:11] <smaug____> but it would be type=contact
  24. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Which would be provided by your phone, or by telling your browser that Google manages your contacts, or whatever.
  25. # [00:11] <smaug____> not contacts
  26. # [00:11] <timeless> that's being done by dap
  27. # [00:11] * timeless hopes
  28. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> timeless: No, DAP is doing some pure-API thing.
  29. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Maybe they're switching over? I dunno.
  30. # [00:12] <smaug____> but there are other use cases for API
  31. # [00:12] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@bas4-kitchener06-1128762076.dsl.bell.ca) (Client Quit)
  32. # [00:12] <timeless> well, ideally whatever work is done by dap would be leveragable//
  33. # [00:12] <smaug____> the type="contact" would be just an autocomplete like thing
  34. # [00:14] * Quits: stefan-__ (~music@hiwi0.wi2.uni-trier.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  36. # [00:15] <smaug____> binding geolocation to input element would be rather silly
  37. # [00:15] <timeless> well
  38. # [00:15] * Joins: matijsb (u2278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-axvkkmgckgznvifn)
  39. # [00:15] <timeless> <input type=location> or <input type=address>
  40. # [00:15] <timeless> is perfectly reasonable
  41. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Exactly.
  42. # [00:15] <timeless> but it's much better if your UA can bring up a map
  43. # [00:16] <timeless> or let you retrieve an address from your contacts
  44. # [00:16] <timeless> the Mozilla GeoLocation impl and its owners are incredibly annoying here
  45. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> These are, of course, perfectly fine options for an <input>'s UI.
  46. # [00:16] <timeless> as are the other vendors
  47. # [00:16] <timeless> "We don't want to standardize on an api to do this"
  48. # [00:16] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@173-164-128-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: dydx)
  49. # [00:16] <timeless> but it's stupid and wrong
  50. # [00:16] <smaug____> if <input type=location> uses geolocation in the background, that is implementation detail
  51. # [00:17] <timeless> if the design of geolocation wasn't "I need to spy on the user's location"
  52. # [00:17] <timeless> but instead "I'd like a location from the user, any will do"
  53. # [00:17] <timeless> And UAs happened to have "convert CurrentLocation" as an option in addition to
  54. # [00:17] <timeless> "enter from contact"
  55. # [00:17] <timeless> and "select from map"
  56. # [00:17] <timeless> but no,
  57. # [00:17] * timeless sighs
  58. # [00:17] * timeless curses Nokia
  59. # [00:18] <timeless> (it's all their fault that I wasn't allowed at that table when the standard was written)
  60. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> You've got it exactly, timeless. Getting a location/address is a useful thing to have, and to submit in a form. Where you get that (current loc, manually entered, chosen from a map) is a UI issue.
  61. # [00:18] <timeless> thank you!
  62. # [00:18] <Hixie> no reason the geo api can't return arbitrary locations too
  63. # [00:18] <timeless> but note that sadly vendors need to be encouraged to do right by users
  64. # [00:18] <timeless> Hixie: true
  65. # [00:18] <timeless> except that vendors suck here
  66. # [00:18] <timeless> and are lazy
  67. # [00:18] <timeless> and don't want to ship that by default
  68. # [00:18] <timeless> and aren't competing to be good to their users
  69. # [00:18] <timeless> so we're stuck w/ privacy invasion only
  70. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Problem is that, with the script-driven API, you're stuck with either smuggling some options into the permissions dialog, or popping up an intrusive dialog whenever the script makes a request.
  71. # [00:19] <timeless> and the vendors say "oh, you can get a [crappy] addon which [hand-waving] will let you do that"
  72. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> An <input> lets the dialog be user-driven.
  73. # [00:19] <timeless> and yes, i've tried the Opera thing
  74. # [00:19] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-200-49.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  75. # [00:19] <timeless> it's crappy
  76. # [00:19] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-229ee355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  77. # [00:19] <timeless> it didn't really work
  78. # [00:19] <timeless> and i did try to send feedback
  79. # [00:19] <timeless> and i've looked at the mozilla impl
  80. # [00:19] <timeless> (repeatedly!)
  81. # [00:19] <Hixie> TabAtkins: doesn't have to be intrusive
  82. # [00:19] <timeless> and it is *not* friendly
  83. # [00:20] <smaug____> <input type="location"> should definitely ask permission if it was filled automatically
  84. # [00:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: just drop down an infobar that says "what location do you wish to report to the page? ((current location)) (pick from map) (old location v) (none)"
  85. # [00:20] <timeless> smaug____: it shouldn't fill in automatically
  86. # [00:20] <timeless> you just get a thing with a bunch of buttons
  87. # [00:20] <timeless> a map, an addressbook, and a location icon
  88. # [00:20] <smaug____> timeless: well, then it is just an implementation detail
  89. # [00:20] <timeless> if you click the location icon, it fills it in
  90. # [00:21] <timeless> smaug____: not exactly
  91. # [00:21] <timeless> unimplemented details don't help users
  92. # [00:21] <timeless> the precise ui is an implementation detail
  93. # [00:21] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-229ee355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  94. # [00:21] <timeless> but requirements to let the user select an arbitrary location
  95. # [00:21] <timeless> should be *requirements*
  96. # [00:21] <timeless> instead of
  97. # [00:21] <timeless> [hand waving]
  98. # [00:21] * Quits: Morphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  99. # [00:22] <timeless> done right, the UAs would have competed to get decent UE for this stuff
  100. # [00:22] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM1-112-136-246.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  101. # [00:22] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  102. # [00:22] <timeless> and we'd probably have had a *better* system that didn't require permission dialogs at all
  103. # [00:22] <timeless> since the users could just select a point from a map
  104. # [00:22] <timeless> e.g. Paris
  105. # [00:22] <smaug____> so, I haven't seen any reasons to bind geolocation to input, but have better UIs in the browsers
  106. # [00:22] <zewt> specs should specify the apis, they shouldn't try to require UI features for users
  107. # [00:22] <timeless> zewt: do
  108. # [00:23] <timeless> so...
  109. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Location is manifestly a potentially useful thing to submit in forms.
  110. # [00:23] <timeless> an API which only allows for privacy invasion
  111. # [00:23] <timeless> is not a good thing
  112. # [00:23] * Quits: robman (~robman@eth4584.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  113. # [00:23] <timeless> and a claim that "oh, in theory, someone could lie"
  114. # [00:23] <timeless> doesn't help if no one implements it
  115. # [00:23] <timeless> and it certainly doesn't help if the api suggests "or you can just abort"
  116. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> You could use the scripted API and fill a hidden input, but why do that when you can instead just make an <input> type and script at that?
  117. # [00:23] <zewt> sure, and specs should note "there are privacy concerns here and UAs should consider them", and perhaps advise on how, but not try to specify how
  118. # [00:23] <timeless> which results in sites discriminating and doing other stupid things
  119. # [00:24] <timeless> zewt: right, i'm not saying specify how
  120. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> In other words, when gathering information from the user, the impetus should be to justify why it *shouldn't* be a new input type.
  121. # [00:24] <timeless> whether it's an input field, or a map, or contacts is an implementation detail
  122. # [00:24] <timeless> but requiring that the user be able to enter another value isn't a bad thing
  123. # [00:24] <timeless> if a ui doesn't have a keyboard, it can offer the users a couple of random values
  124. # [00:24] <timeless> that's still valid
  125. # [00:24] <timeless> and it would still help users
  126. # [00:25] * Quits: nigelb (~nigel@ubuntu/member/nigelb) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  127. # [00:25] <timeless> <input type=location onchange=doSomething()>
  128. # [00:25] <smaug____> still, only about UI. Nothing requiring geolocation or similar.
  129. # [00:25] * Joins: nigelb (~nigel@ubuntu/member/nigelb)
  130. # [00:25] * timeless fails to parse that
  131. # [00:26] <smaug____> browser could know the location in other ways than using geolocation
  132. # [00:27] <timeless> right
  133. # [00:27] <zewt> i don't generally think specs trying to require user-facing, non-api-facing features seems very useful; if i was an implementor i'd deem that out of scope for the spec and ignore it (except informationally, of course--i'd treat it as a note)
  134. # [00:27] <timeless> but unfortunate the geolocation api was designed to be a geolocation api
  135. # [00:27] <timeless> instead of a location api
  136. # [00:27] <timeless> which is a bug
  137. # [00:27] <timeless> (that was standardized!)
  138. # [00:27] <smaug____> so saying that type="location" has something to do with geolocation is just an implementation detail
  139. # [00:27] <zewt> if it's not useful enough to implement on my (implementor's) own, it'd be surprising if demanding it in the spec would change that
  140. # [00:28] <timeless> smaug____: which is fine with us
  141. # [00:28] <smaug____> timeless: ah, you just want different API
  142. # [00:28] <smaug____> you have different use cases
  143. # [00:28] <timeless> smaug____: i want a different outlook
  144. # [00:28] <timeless> my use cases are privacy first
  145. # [00:28] <timeless> and being able to plan for where i'll be
  146. # [00:28] <timeless> or help someone remotely
  147. # [00:28] <timeless> or ...
  148. # [00:28] <timeless> but still be able to use geolocation services
  149. # [00:28] <timeless> nothing prevented geolocation from working well using <input type=location>
  150. # [00:28] <smaug____> nothing prevents that now
  151. # [00:28] <timeless> and nothing prevents users from being able to use it for lots of other things
  152. # [00:29] <timeless> sure things do
  153. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Even ignoring privacy, the ability to get a location from the user (not their current, just a chosen loc) is really useful for, say, timezone calculations.
  154. # [00:29] <timeless> none of the browsers did anything friendly for users
  155. # [00:29] <timeless> and none of them will
  156. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> "I'm going to be HERE, what's the time?"
  157. # [00:29] <zewt> TabAtkins: i hate timezones to death
  158. # [00:29] <timeless> i'll give you 100 bucks if one does by march
  159. # [00:29] <smaug____> why not?
  160. # [00:29] <zewt> just throwing that out there
  161. # [00:29] <timeless> (and 50 bucks if one does by july)
  162. # [00:29] <smaug____> timeless: just write a spec for type="location"
  163. # [00:29] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-229ee355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  164. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> zewt: Preach it. If Swatch hadn't screwed up the zero point on their beats I'd be using them.
  165. # [00:30] <timeless> heh
  166. # [00:30] <timeless> smaug____: would you get it implemented in gecko if i wrote the spec?
  167. # [00:30] <timeless> (or webkit, i'm not picky)
  168. # [00:31] <smaug____> possibly
  169. # [00:31] <timeless> (and would you help get the geolocation api deprecated?)
  170. # [00:31] <smaug____> depends on the quality of the spec ;)
  171. # [00:31] <smaug____> why should we deprecate geolocation API?
  172. # [00:31] <smaug____> it has different use cases
  173. # [00:31] <timeless> not really
  174. # [00:32] <zewt> yeah deprecate a widely deployed, heavily used API, great idea heh
  175. # [00:32] <smaug____> using geolocation web app can query the location, type="location" requires user to actively give the location to web app
  176. # [00:32] <timeless> it doesn't
  177. # [00:32] <smaug____> huh
  178. # [00:32] <timeless> the input could easily let the user say `update location as i move`
  179. # [00:33] <timeless> see my example above
  180. # [00:33] <smaug____> huh
  181. # [00:33] <timeless> <input type=location onchange=doSomething()>
  182. # [00:33] <smaug____> terrible
  183. # [00:33] <timeless> what's terrible about that?
  184. # [00:33] <smaug____> so each web app should depend on the UI <input type="location"> happens to have
  185. # [00:33] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I'd expect timezone location-selection would need a specialist UI, because you might be selecting a point near a timezone boundary, in which case you need to be made aware that you're near the boundary and that you need to be very precise in your location
  186. # [00:34] <Philip`> whereas if you're somewhere near the middle of a timezone then you don't need to bother with that precision
  187. # [00:34] * Joins: benjoffe (~benjoffe_@r49-2-10-185.cpe.vividwireless.net.au)
  188. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Sure, it was just an example off the top of my head.
  189. # [00:34] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@66.207.208.98) (Quit: rniwa)
  190. # [00:34] <timeless> timezones are disasters :)
  191. # [00:34] <timeless> did you guys install MS's recent time zone update?
  192. # [00:34] <Philip`> so the UI ought to be giving you feedback instead of being a fully general one
  193. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> timeless: Was it an auto-update?
  194. # [00:34] <timeless> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2570791
  195. # [00:34] <timeless> it was pushed by Windows Update, yeah
  196. # [00:34] <zewt> well, there should be a way to query the timezone from the system, very rarely should it be needed to nag the user about it
  197. # [00:35] <zewt> but ... timezones are tricky, heh
  198. # [00:35] <timeless> zewt: err
  199. # [00:35] <zewt> stupid 1/2 (and even a couple 1/4th) timezones D:
  200. # [00:35] <timeless> privacy violation
  201. # [00:35] <zewt> zzz
  202. # [00:35] <zewt> ask people who want to be asked
  203. # [00:35] <timeless> it should be possible to ask the system to show a time in the user's timezone
  204. # [00:35] <timeless> or in some other time zone
  205. # [00:35] <timeless> but it really isn't ok to automatically retrieve the user's time zone
  206. # [00:36] <timeless> (plus, it's not necessarily accurate)
  207. # [00:36] <zewt> that's at the level where maybe browsers should have a "paranoid" mode where they ask about it, but 98% of users don't care and don't need to
  208. # [00:36] <timeless> <input type=timezone>
  209. # [00:36] * Joins: benjoffe_ (~benjoffe_@120.155.121.55)
  210. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> I am all for adding a dozen new inputs.
  211. # [00:36] <Philip`> zewt: Can't you determine the user's timezone already from Date().toString() ?
  212. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> inputs are great.
  213. # [00:36] <timeless> the value can be colored in gray with the current value with a way for the user to accept that value
  214. # [00:37] <zewt> is the timezone in that standardized?
  215. # [00:37] <timeless> Philip`: if the JS system is good enough and the os is good enough
  216. # [00:37] <timeless> kinda
  217. # [00:37] <timeless> but one or the other is typically not good enough for 100% :)
  218. # [00:37] <zewt> i guess it must be
  219. # [00:37] * Joins: Morphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  220. # [00:37] * timeless has read the edge cases there for gecko fwiw, they exist
  221. # [00:38] <zewt> heh i wonder if chrome's paranoia mode hides that
  222. # [00:38] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@66.207.208.98)
  223. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> I doubt it.
  224. # [00:38] <zewt> nope
  225. # [00:38] <timeless> note that you can't necessarily determine if a user will switch in and out of DST
  226. # [00:38] <timeless> and certainly not necessarily when
  227. # [00:38] * Quits: benjoffe (~benjoffe_@r49-2-10-185.cpe.vividwireless.net.au) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  228. # [00:38] <timeless> knowing someone is in +x doesn't tell you about transitions
  229. # [00:39] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@66.207.208.98) (Client Quit)
  230. # [00:39] <timeless> and it also won't tell you if the computer they're using has correct transition info :)
  231. # [00:39] <zewt> the format is "GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)"--something I'm not sure is whether the string "Eastern Daylight Time" is a standardized string that can be mapped to a timezone db, or if it's ad hoc and unreliable
  232. # [00:39] <zewt> because GMT-0400 doesn't tell you the timezone, it only tells you the offset in the user's timezone currently
  233. # [00:40] <zewt> stupid Arizona
  234. # [00:41] <timeless> Thu Aug 25 2011 18:36:01 GMT-0400 (US Eastern Daylight Time)
  235. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> The current time is Na, in base-60 minutes since UTC midnight.
  236. # [00:41] <timeless> Thu Aug 25 2011 18:36:23 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
  237. # [00:41] <zewt> yeah, that limits the usefulness of that for anything nontrivial
  238. # [00:41] <timeless> both of those times are from Chrome
  239. # [00:41] <timeless> anyone want to guess what the difference is?
  240. # [00:41] <zewt> guessing regional
  241. # [00:41] * Quits: benjoffe_ (~benjoffe_@120.155.121.55) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  242. # [00:41] <zewt> we don't say "US EDT" in the US
  243. # [00:41] <timeless> pick a region? :)
  244. # [00:42] <zewt> since we're the US, damn it!
  245. # [00:42] <timeless> so guess the region?
  246. # [00:42] <zewt> why? heh
  247. # [00:42] <timeless> it's Indiana fwiw
  248. # [00:42] <timeless> are you saying that isn't in the US? :)
  249. # [00:42] <Hixie> AryehGregor: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13424
  250. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> zewt: http://www.xanthir.com/time-manifesto.php
  251. # [00:42] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-47-4.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  252. # [00:43] <timeless> Thu Aug 25 18:38:00 2011
  253. # [00:43] <timeless> is IE9 fwiw :)
  254. # [00:43] <Hixie> AryehGregor: if you're ok with moving the definitions to your spec, please mention in the spec which sections i should remove from the html spec
  255. # [00:44] <zewt> we can't even avoid streets having different names across town boundaries, short of a global dictatorship we'll never see a rational timezone system, heh
  256. # [00:45] <timeless> so, afaict IE has decided to
  257. # [00:45] <timeless> btw, there are more than 4 timezones for the US :)
  258. # [00:46] <timeless> ignoring Indiana
  259. # [00:46] <zewt> well, it's still giving local time, and (if the user's clock isn't wrong) you can figure out the GMT offset from that
  260. # [00:46] <Philip`> Does it do the same for 'new Date().toLocaleString()'?
  261. # [00:47] <timeless> Philip`: that gets me a bing search
  262. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> timeless: Continental US!
  263. # [00:47] <timeless> TabAtkins: aww
  264. # [00:47] <timeless> Alaska excluded?
  265. # [00:47] <timeless> (it's on the contintent!)
  266. # [00:48] <timeless> I think you're looking for `lower 48+dc` fwiw :)
  267. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Is Alaska usually included when you say "continental US"? I thought that term usually meant lower 48+dc.
  268. # [00:49] * Joins: cooto (~Adium@pc-69-123-161-190.cm.vtr.net)
  269. # [00:49] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiguous_United_States#Continental_United_States
  270. # [00:49] <timeless> Because Alaska is also on the North American continent, the term continental United States, if interpreted literally, should also include that state,[7] so the term is sometimes qualified with the explicit inclusion or exclusion of Alaska to resolve any ambiguity.[8][3][9][10][11]
  271. # [00:49] <zewt> if something says "shipping only to continental US" that usually excludes alaska
  272. # [00:49] <timeless> they usually explicitly note they exclude it though
  273. # [00:50] <timeless> note sure if that's 8, 3, 9, 10, or 11 :)
  274. # [00:50] <timeless> s/note/not/
  275. # [00:50] * Parts: cooto (~Adium@pc-69-123-161-190.cm.vtr.net)
  276. # [00:50] <zewt> heh
  277. # [00:50] * timeless has no idea why 3 is after 8
  278. # [00:50] <zewt> i use stylish to hide footnotes on wikipedia
  279. # [00:50] <Hixie> anyone familiar with rniwa's undomanager stuff?
  280. # [00:50] <zewt> there are *way* too many of them on a lot of pages, to the point where it's distracting
  281. # [00:50] <Hixie> should i be removing window.onundo and window.onredo?
  282. # [00:50] <Hixie> i don't see it mentioned in the proposal
  283. # [00:50] <timeless> The term was in use prior to the admission of Alaska and Hawaii as states of the United States, and at that time usually excluded outlying territories of the U.S.[12][13] However, even before Alaska became a state, it was sometimes included within the "Continental US".[14]
  284. # [00:51] <timeless> anyway, `contiguous` is usually the word you want
  285. # [00:51] <smaug____> Hixie: I think he and ehsan and others were discussing about undomanager yesterday or today
  286. # [00:51] <timeless> > The term lower 48 may or may not include the District of Columbia (which is not part of any of the 48 states). The National Geographic style guide recommends the use of contiguous or conterminous United States instead of lower 48 when the 48 states are meant, unless used in the context of Alaska.[17] Otherwise it is avoided as a misnomer, because all the major islands of Hawaii are farther south than the most southern point of the continenta
  287. # [00:51] <Hixie> yeah, they had a meeting up in the canadian lands
  288. # [00:51] <smaug____> I hope they'll report something
  289. # [00:51] <zewt> ugh nvidia installed two plugins into firefox without permission
  290. # [00:52] <timeless> they were meting today
  291. # [00:52] <timeless> s/met/meet/
  292. # [00:52] <timeless> zewt: you using ff9?
  293. # [00:52] <timeless> if so, it probably told you when you started..
  294. # [00:52] <zewt> 6
  295. # [00:52] <timeless> change to 9
  296. # [00:52] <timeless> you'll get a dialog complaining about added addons/plugins
  297. # [00:52] <zewt> i'll pass on non-production builds of my primary browser, heh
  298. # [00:53] * timeless is using 9.0a1 2011-08-25
  299. # [00:53] * Quits: chayin (~quassel@61.14.141.36) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  300. # [00:53] <timeless> or "Nightly is up to date" as Asa would want me to say if i visited the about screen
  301. # [00:53] <timeless> it's fine as long as you're happy w/ losing your irc logs every day
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  304. # [00:54] <zewt> if firefox started deleting mirc logs i'd be concerned :)
  305. # [00:55] <timeless> you clearly haven't bought into B2G
  306. # [00:55] * timeless is using webchat.freenode.net ..
  307. # [00:56] * nimbu thanks whoever uploaded the styles to whatwg blog theme
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  309. # [00:59] <timeless> can someone remind me how <cite> works?
  310. # [00:59] <timeless> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#wai-aria
  311. # [00:59] <timeless> has a <cite> tag...
  312. # [00:59] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  313. # [00:59] <karlcow> cite is the reference of the Work
  314. # [01:00] <Hixie> timeless: <cite> means "title of work"
  315. # [01:00] <timeless> karlcow: nope
  316. # [01:00] <Hixie> timeless: insofar as how it works in browsers, it works the same as <i>, more or less
  317. # [01:00] <timeless> Hixie provided the correct answer
  318. # [01:00] <karlcow> <cite>Gone With The Wind</cite>
  319. # [01:00] <timeless> (of course, since he wrote the spec, that isn't surprising)
  320. # [01:00] <karlcow> huh?
  321. # [01:00] <Hixie> heh
  322. # [01:00] <karlcow> we both gave the same answer
  323. # [01:00] <timeless> no
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  325. # [01:01] * karlcow is scratching his head
  326. # [01:01] * timeless is looking for a style guide name
  327. # [01:01] <timeless> but roughly a "reference" to a work as in http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/legacylib/mlahcc.html would include more than the work title
  328. # [01:02] <timeless> it tends to include an author and a date
  329. # [01:03] <timeless> > The cite element is obviously a key part of any citation in a bibliography, but it is only used to mark the title: <p><cite>Universal Declaration of Human Rights</cite>, United Nations, December 1948. Adopted by General Assembly resolution 217 A (III).</p>
  330. # [01:03] <karlcow> yup
  331. # [01:03] <timeless> your definition would have meant the <p> to me
  332. # [01:03] <timeless> which is what i needed clarified
  333. # [01:03] <karlcow> ah ok
  334. # [01:04] * karlcow add to html5 <ref></ref>
  335. # [01:04] <timeless> sorry for the terse `nope`
  336. # [01:04] * timeless was blanking on the spelling of MLA
  337. # [01:04] <timeless> (amongst other problems)
  338. # [01:04] * timeless wants dinner
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  340. # [01:05] <nimbu> jgraham: in style.css line 63 (for blog.whatwg.org) there needs to be an overflow: hidden; after the display: block; decl. SRRY I did not notice that.
  341. # [01:05] <zewt> i wish browsers let me middle-click on form submit buttons to submit into another tab
  342. # [01:05] <timeless> zewt: what happens if the script does something magical instead? :)
  343. # [01:05] <karlcow> <ref><cite>title</cite>, <author title="it's here we start to enter into a maze of markup issues">authors list</author>, etc etc etc </ref>
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  345. # [01:05] <zewt> the same thing as links that do the same, heh
  346. # [01:06] <timeless> zewt: e.g. google's instant search
  347. # [01:06] <timeless> which generally doesn't load a new page at all
  348. # [01:06] <Philip`> zewt: Ctrl+shift+click seems to open buttons in new tabs in Opera
  349. # [01:06] <timeless> for pages w/o access to databases or remote resources, you could clone the document tree
  350. # [01:07] <timeless> but that fails if there's a local database or some similar remote resource
  351. # [01:07] * timeless curses Greyhound
  352. # [01:07] <Philip`> (Actually just shift+click)
  353. # [01:07] <timeless> their serve wouldn't let me have 2 searches open in distinct windows
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  356. # [01:07] <timeless> it invalidated all but the most recently used one upon submission
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  358. # [01:07] <zewt> heh
  359. # [01:08] <timeless> oh, if you want to truly appreciate greyhound...
  360. # [01:08] <zewt> the worst is broken crsf stuff that breaks if you ever have more than one form open
  361. # [01:08] <timeless> load http://greyhound.ca/
  362. # [01:08] <timeless> enter `toronto` (select the first one) in the origin
  363. # [01:08] <timeless> enter `albany` (select the first one) in the destination
  364. # [01:08] <timeless> then search
  365. # [01:09] <timeless> now go back and try `toronto` (...) and `vancouver`
  366. # [01:09] <timeless> i tried to describe how broken greyhound.ca was to someone because i experienced the first behavior
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  368. # [01:09] <timeless> but they tried the second set of inputs...
  369. # [01:10] <timeless> oh darn
  370. # [01:10] <timeless> it isn't behaving nicely for vancouver
  371. # [01:10] <timeless> hold
  372. # [01:10] <timeless> ok, s/vancouver/waterloo/g
  373. # [01:10] <timeless> go figure
  374. # [01:11] <timeless> clearly i haven't divined the right rule for when their site breaks
  375. # [01:11] <timeless> (for waterloo, be sure to pick ON [the second item])
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  378. # [01:13] <karlcow> timeless: and the worse for me… is that there is no sane way to do the same thing by train
  379. # [01:13] <timeless> karlcow: i'm actually going from Toronto to Albany
  380. # [01:14] <timeless> bus is really the best path
  381. # [01:14] <timeless> i looked at train (sucky schedules)
  382. # [01:14] <karlcow> unfortunately
  383. # [01:14] <timeless> and flights (1000cur)
  384. # [01:14] <karlcow> yup
  385. # [01:14] <karlcow> trains are slow and expensive in Canada :/
  386. # [01:14] <timeless> i presume you got the message from your browser?
  387. # [01:15] <karlcow> from Montreal to NY the only reasonable way is to take a plane
  388. # [01:15] <timeless> (if you're using firefox, you got *my* message actually...)
  389. # [01:15] <timeless> (since i wrote it)
  390. # [01:15] <timeless> driving shouldn't be bad
  391. # [01:15] * timeless doesn't have a license
  392. # [01:15] <timeless> my path (toronto/albany) would be pretty good by car
  393. # [01:15] <timeless> scenic, etc
  394. # [01:16] * karlcow is missing train transportation in Japan and Europe :)
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  397. # [01:19] <timeless> karlcow: can you drive from montreal to plattsburg?
  398. # [01:19] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Client Quit)
  399. # [01:19] <timeless> 68 Adirondack Departs: 12:35 PM Wed Sep 07 2011 Plattsburgh, NY (PLB) Arrives: 8:40 PM Wed Sep 07 2011 New York, NY - Penn Station (NYP) Duration: 8 hr, 5 min
  400. # [01:20] <timeless> not terrible
  401. # [01:20] <timeless> oh, 62USD
  402. # [01:20] <karlcow> 8h… :) awful
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  404. # [01:21] <karlcow> 507 km. should be taking max 1h30 to 2h.
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  406. # [01:23] <timeless> google maps says it's a 5hour drive
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  408. # [01:25] <karlcow> yup insane. 8h of train…
  409. # [01:25] <timeless> boston south station to washington d.c. union station is 8 hours/450miles or a 6 1/2hr train ride
  410. # [01:27] <timeless> wierd
  411. # [01:27] <timeless> if i start my gmaps trip in montreal, i get KM
  412. # [01:27] <timeless> if it's us-us i get Mi
  413. # [01:27] <timeless> (please excuse incorrect abbr's)
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  415. # [01:28] <timeless> note that europe's train system doesn't work perfectly for non major locations
  416. # [01:28] <timeless> and you can often end up w/ 3 trains
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  418. # [01:28] <timeless> i think you're looking at roughly trying to get north of switzerland to south of switzerland
  419. # [01:29] * timeless tries to remember which euro train site didn't suck
  420. # [01:29] <timeless> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Stuttgart,+Germany+to+Genova,+Italy&saddr=Stuttgart,+Germany&daddr=Genova,+Italy&hl=en&sll=46.649436,10.524902&sspn=10.181416,23.269043&geocode=FZJH6AIdYRaMACnTj63BNNuZRzHkz5F3HMHVeQ%3BFRaZpQIdZVKIAClpb64h5kPTEjG7Arq1xlP3aQ&vpsrc=0&doflg=ptk&t=h&z=7
  421. # [01:29] <timeless> for lack of something else to try
  422. # [01:30] <timeless> Stuttgart Hbf Genova Piazza Principe 25.08.11 05:18 dep 15:42 arr 10:24 4
  423. # [01:30] <timeless> 10 hours, 4 changes
  424. # [01:31] <timeless> best is:
  425. # [01:31] <timeless> Stuttgart Hbf Genova Piazza Principe 25.08.11 07:58 dep 16:42 arr 8:44 2
  426. # [01:31] <timeless> ~9 hours, 2 changes
  427. # [01:31] <timeless> so, no, europe isn't wonderful either
  428. # [01:31] <timeless> you're just used to going from cities which don't have mountains in the way
  429. # [01:31] <timeless> and which have heavy traffic
  430. # [01:32] * timeless is happy at those two thrown darts
  431. # [01:33] <timeless> anyway, that trip is comprable for distance
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  437. # [01:35] <karlcow> paris-lyon, paris-marseille, paris-london, paris-brussels :) like a charm
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  697. # [17:23] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  698. # [17:23] <Ms2ger> Morning
  699. # [17:25] <nimbu> :))
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  702. # [17:26] <jgraham> Well shall we go?
  703. # [17:27] <dglazkov> yes! where are we going?
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  727. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> Hixie, we discussed undo/redo events, and I think we concluded that we'll just have events along the lines of onbeforecommand and onaftercommand that will fire for things like undo/redo/delete/insertText/etc. whether it's the browser or the user triggering them. So in principle that means we don't need special events for undo/redo.
  728. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I'll get back to you on bug 13424, the e-mails should be somewhere in my spec inbox.
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  736. # [19:26] <timeless> karlcow: that's because paris is well connected and you don't have any mountains to deal with
  737. # [19:27] <karlcow> like in Japan? ;)
  738. # [19:27] * timeless doesn't know enough about japan
  739. # [19:27] * timeless isn't sure if Japan just goes around the mountains
  740. # [19:27] <karlcow> mountains land
  741. # [19:28] <timeless> http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Nagano,+Nagano+Prefecture,+Japan&daddr=Okayama,+Okayama+Prefecture,+Japan&hl=en&sll=34.939985,136.252441&sspn=3.039282,5.817261&geocode=FWY2LwIdQ608CCmZRDTmXYAdYDHIkigHdKko8Q%3BFarLEAIdDnP7BylPoPsvcQVUNTFmV2lgJoDDEA&vpsrc=0&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=time&mra=ls&t=h&z=7&start=0
  742. # [19:29] <timeless> every time i try to use gmaps to get transit directions in japan, it sends me to an airport!
  743. # [19:29] <timeless> ooh, options has a [] no airplanes box!
  744. # [19:30] * Quits: reggna (~reggna@godis.olf.sgsnet.se) (Quit: glurp)
  745. # [19:30] <karlcow> heh
  746. # [19:30] <timeless> http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Nagano,+Nagano+Prefecture,+Japan&daddr=Kyoto,+Kyoto+Prefecture,+Japan&hl=en&ll=35.808904,136.977539&spn=3.006745,5.817261&sll=35.808904,136.988525&sspn=3.006745,5.817261&geocode=FWY2LwIdQ608CCmZRDTmXYAdYDHIkigHdKko8Q%3BFTQ8FgId3acXCCnxwzzN1qgBYDE9HbtrNh2WwA&vpsrc=0&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=time&mra=ltm&t=h&z=8&start=0
  747. # [19:30] <timeless> ok, there we go
  748. # [19:30] <timeless> 250miles
  749. # [19:30] <timeless> 4:30
  750. # [19:30] <timeless> (by train)
  751. # [19:31] <timeless> but that's only ~400km, and we were using 600km as a benchmark
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  753. # [19:32] <timeless> http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Nagano,+Nagano+Prefecture,+Japan&daddr=Takahashi,+Okayama+Prefecture,+Japan&hl=en&sll=35.621582,135.900879&sspn=3.013818,5.817261&geocode=FWY2LwIdQ608CCmZRDTmXYAdYDHIkigHdKko8Q%3BFYLfEgIdaNP2BykhIvph4LRWNTGhAIJnEygEew&vpsrc=0&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=time&mra=ls&t=h&z=8&start=0
  754. # [19:32] <timeless> 6-7hrs / 400mile ~640km
  755. # [19:33] <timeless> which means that 8hours for a train from montreal to nyc really isn't *much* worse than japan :)
  756. # [19:33] <karlcow> tss tss
  757. # [19:33] <timeless> and that's with japan's *good* network
  758. # [19:33] <karlcow> big cities connection
  759. # [19:33] <timeless> vs a pair of cities which don't care to connect
  760. # [19:33] * AryehGregor waves to timeless
  761. # [19:33] * Joins: reggna (~reggna@godis.olf.sgsnet.se)
  762. # [19:33] <timeless> yeah, hi, back @nyc?
  763. # [19:33] * timeless presumes AryehGregor flew
  764. # [19:34] <AryehGregor> Yep.
  765. # [19:34] <timeless> (we're having a long rolling conversation about transit in the NE corridor)
  766. # [19:34] <AryehGregor> Heck yeah I flew. I went to Toronto by bus once, I'm not going to put up with that for a meetup.
  767. # [19:34] <timeless> heh
  768. # [19:35] <timeless> i'm going to albany by bus
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  771. # [19:35] <timeless> (that's more or less one of the starting points for this conversation)
  772. # [19:35] <timeless> your flight which covers more distance was probably ~200usd?
  773. # [19:36] <timeless> priceline is offering 273usd
  774. # [19:36] <timeless> so i guess we should call it 300usd
  775. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> Well, Google paid for it. They said just tell them what flight I wanted, so I didn't try fidgeting with departure dates or anything to get the best price.
  776. # [19:36] <timeless> flying from here to albany is ~1000
  777. # [19:37] <timeless> yeah, i know
  778. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> It was something like $700 or $800 round-trip, I think.
  779. # [19:37] <timeless> i'm just using it for perspective
  780. # [19:37] <timeless> ouch
  781. # [19:37] <timeless> business class?
  782. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> No, regular.
  783. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> Economy or whatever.
  784. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> It surprised me
  785. # [19:37] <timeless> very short notice?
  786. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> .
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  788. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> Yes, less than a week before IIRC.
  789. # [19:37] <timeless> ok
  790. # [19:38] <timeless> anyway, the 1000cur is for over a month in advance
  791. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> A round trip to Israel is only like $1500, but I guess that's if you buy it well in advance and don't care about the exact dates/times.
  792. # [19:38] <timeless> whereas fwiw, in general your roundtrip flight should be 300-400
  793. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> That was more like what I expected.
  794. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> But I looked at price comparison sites and such and didn't find it.
  795. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> Maybe I was booking too late to get a decent price, but there were empty seats on the plane, so I dunno.
  796. # [19:40] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@207.239.83.130)
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  798. # [19:41] <timeless> kayak is offering ~900usd for flights from jfk to tlv for um
  799. # [19:41] <timeless> nov 16 return dec 14
  800. # [19:41] <timeless> (turkish airlines)
  801. # [19:41] <timeless> (dates randomly selected by throwing darts into the future at a calendar)
  802. # [19:41] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com)
  803. # [19:42] <timeless> anyway, point being, it's cheaper for you to fly to israel than for me to fly to albany
  804. # [19:43] <timeless> (oh, and priceline will give you those flights for 2$ less than kayak [898 v 900!])
  805. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> Heh, we were talking about how Google Docs reimplements everything from scratch -- I just saw a message "Your browser's current zoom level is not supported. Please reset to the default zoom."
  806. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> That's what you get, I guess.
  807. # [19:47] <timeless> yeah, i've seent that message
  808. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> So it seems like my credit card charges in Canada are taking a long time to post.
  809. # [19:49] <timeless> they can easily take over a month
  810. # [19:49] <timeless> the same applies for roaming charges
  811. # [19:49] <timeless> which is great if you need to get approval for your expenses..
  812. # [19:49] <timeless> and are supposed to do it as a single bundle
  813. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> Great.
  814. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> Well, I don't need approval, I just need to file for reimbursement.
  815. # [19:50] * timeless hasn't really had that problem yet, not having a working credit card for a complete trip yet
  816. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> Conveniently, I haven't actually lost any money until the charges post, so . . .
  817. # [19:50] <timeless> well, if you live month to month, iut
  818. # [19:50] <timeless> 's the same thing
  819. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> No, that's the nice thing about credit cards. It doesn't come out of my bank account.
  820. # [19:50] * timeless isn't living month to month anymore
  821. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> (although I don't live month to month or anywhere close to it, I actually still live with my parents)
  822. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> :)
  823. # [19:51] <timeless> yeah, my parents left toronto this morning
  824. # [19:51] <timeless> they're on their way to somewhere near detroit
  825. # [19:52] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96)
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  828. # [19:54] <timeless> btw, what kind of internet connection do you have? fiber? dsl? cable?
  829. # [19:54] <timeless> [fiber/fios]
  830. # [19:54] * timeless is wondering about costs of providers and wouldn't mind an NYC based reference point
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  833. # [19:57] <karlcow> cable.
  834. # [19:57] <timeless> bandwidth, limit/month, price/month?
  835. # [19:59] <karlcow> Download: 30Mb/s Upload: 2Mb/s, 120 Go/month, 66.95 CAD/months +15% Taxes (QC)
  836. # [19:59] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@207.239.83.130) (Quit: othermaciej)
  837. # [19:59] <timeless> hrm
  838. # [20:00] <timeless> i'm looking at .. teksavvy.com
  839. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> I pulled a USB device out of Windows while logging out without saying "safely remove hardware" and Windows blue-screened.
  840. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> lol windows.
  841. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> 0x0000008e.
  842. # [20:00] * AryehGregor looks it up
  843. # [20:00] <jcranmer> ERR_USER_WAS_AN_IDIOT
  844. # [20:00] <karlcow> http://www.videotron.com/service/internet-services/internet-access
  845. # [20:01] <timeless> they're offering 15 ; 1; 9tb (estimated assuming constant download); 54.95 cad/month +xx% taxes (ON)
  846. # [20:01] <timeless> that's cable
  847. # [20:01] <timeless> AryehGregor: are you an admin?
  848. # [20:01] <timeless> install windbg and pull up the .dmp file
  849. # [20:02] <timeless> also did the STOP message finger a driver?
  850. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> KERNEL_MODE_EXCEPTION_NOT_HANDLED, apparently, or else STATUS_ACCESS_VIOLATION.
  851. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> I didn't look closely.
  852. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> I'm an admin but it's my parents' computer, I was just using it for the scanner.
  853. # [20:02] <timeless> the first google hit for your stop is rustock rootkit :)
  854. # [20:02] <timeless> install windbg
  855. # [20:03] <timeless> it's a pretty fast process
  856. # [20:03] <timeless> karlcow: the big question i have is whether there's a risk of lower quality service using cable than dsl
  857. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> See, but I don't care. I use Linux. Not my problem.
  858. # [20:04] <timeless> because traditionally cable is shared w/ neighbors
  859. # [20:04] <timeless> AryehGregor: you don't care if your parent's banking info is stolen/abused?
  860. # [20:04] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came%E2%80%A6
  861. # [20:04] <karlcow> How we found the file that was used to Hack RSA — http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00002226.html
  862. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> I'm not going to spend some unknown amount of time debugging their computer without them asking me to fend off that risk, no.
  863. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> My father manages their computers, he's a programmer too.
  864. # [20:05] <karlcow> timeless: I'm working from home mostly
  865. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> I doubt it's virus-related. Windows System Internals says it's one of the most common blue screens.
  866. # [20:05] <karlcow> so the neighbors are mostly not here :)
  867. # [20:05] <timeless> karlcow: heh
  868. # [20:05] <timeless> AryehGregor: yeah, STOP is
  869. # [20:05] <timeless> but it's helpful to know what caused it
  870. # [20:05] <timeless> sometimes it just means there's a driver that should be updated
  871. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> My parents chose to use Windows, they get to suffer with the consequences of their decision. :)
  872. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> (but it didn't affect them anyway, except for restarting the computer)
  873. # [20:07] * Joins: juangiordana (~quassel@host186.190-31-87.telecom.net.ar)
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  875. # [20:08] <timeless> a buggy driver can affect them in the future
  876. # [20:08] <timeless> and a virus will affect them in the future :)
  877. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> Of course it can. They use Windows.
  878. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> Of course it will. They use Windows.
  879. # [20:08] * timeless chuckles
  880. # [20:08] <timeless> buggy drivers exist on other platforms too you know :)
  881. # [20:08] * timeless has had panics on just about every paltform imaginable
  882. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> They're a heck of a lot less frequent on non-Windows platforms.
  883. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> I don't believe I've ever had a kernel panic on Linux after boot on my desktop, although I might be misremembering.
  884. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> (I've had X hangs and crashes, though!)
  885. # [20:09] <timeless> i've had panic's on my linux systems
  886. # [20:09] <timeless> i think some were caused by a nic
  887. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> timeless, including emacs? :)
  888. # [20:10] <timeless> Ms2ger: i've had that die too, i think even at worldgate
  889. # [20:10] <timeless> and jesup used emacs as his os (he's on moznet these days)
  890. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> jesup works for Mozilla now
  891. # [20:11] <timeless> i've certainly had panic's on my linux based nokia tablets :)
  892. # [20:11] <timeless> i've also caused at least one freebsd box to panic :)
  893. # [20:11] <timeless> do you remember / have you seen `stress`? :)
  894. # [20:12] <smaug____> timeless: you've probably done unusual things with your nokia tablets :)
  895. # [20:12] <timeless> (that page has killed all sorts of devices)
  896. # [20:12] <smaug____> though, N900 does crash occasionally
  897. # [20:12] <timeless> smaug____: to be fair, most of the panics were in code that hadn't shipped
  898. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> They also probably run low-quality out-of-tree drivers.
  899. # [20:12] <timeless> well, of course
  900. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Heh.
  901. # [20:12] <timeless> just like the drivers on your parents' windows system
  902. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but the point is, on desktop Linux you usually don't have to use such drivers.
  903. # [20:12] <timeless> the odds of that windows system actually panicing because of a bug in MS drivers
  904. # [20:13] <timeless> vs a bug in third party drivers
  905. # [20:13] <timeless> hrm
  906. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> I don't think I use any, unless Ubuntu sneakily enabled them without asking me.
  907. # [20:13] <timeless> you don't use nvidia/amd/ati video drivers?
  908. # [20:13] <timeless> or whichever
  909. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> Nope.
  910. # [20:13] <timeless> you're no fun
  911. # [20:13] <timeless> and um
  912. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> I use nouveau. Works for me.
  913. # [20:13] <timeless> iirc ubuntu planned to change their default ther
  914. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> It will even support 3D soon.
  915. # [20:13] <karlcow> TabAtkins: why only rotation compared to a full EXIF apis?
  916. # [20:15] <timeless> http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/licensing
  917. # [20:15] <timeless> ... In addition, we install some hardware drivers that are available only in binary format, but such packages are clearly marked in the restricted component.
  918. # Session Close: Fri Aug 26 20:15:29 2011
  919. #
  920. # Session Start: Fri Aug 26 20:15:29 2011
  921. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  922. # [20:15] * Disconnected
  923. # [20:18] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  924. # [20:18] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  925. # [20:18] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  926. # [20:18] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  927. # [20:21] * timeless sighs
  928. # [20:21] <timeless> the portable contacts "spec" has really terrible text
  929. # [20:21] <timeless> > Service Provider MAY return a subset of the requested fields if they are not supported.
  930. # [20:21] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-45-138.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  931. # [20:22] * timeless reads that as service provider may return a subset (including not supported fields, and excluding some supported fields)) of the requested fields
  932. # [20:23] <timeless> ... if they (the subset) are not (all) supported
  933. # [20:23] <timeless> :)
  934. # [20:23] <jcranmer> Service Provider may exclude a requested field if said field is not supported
  935. # [20:24] <timeless> jcranmer: it didn't say that though
  936. # [20:24] <timeless> it should have
  937. # [20:24] <jcranmer> s/a/any/
  938. # [20:24] <jcranmer> it's more precise and shorter, too
  939. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> Service Provider MUST support all fields.
  940. # [20:24] <timeless> indeed
  941. # [20:24] <jcranmer> and arguably less confusing
  942. # [20:24] <timeless> and that
  943. # [20:25] <timeless> anyway, i highly recommend *not* reading this `spec`
  944. # [20:25] <jcranmer> I read ISO C++ from time to time
  945. # [20:25] * timeless nods
  946. # [20:25] <jcranmer> and old RFCs
  947. # [20:25] <timeless> i have a feeling this is worse than both
  948. # [20:25] <timeless> and i'm well aware of both
  949. # [20:25] <jcranmer> after those, I doubt you can find anything else that's crap
  950. # [20:26] <jcranmer> well, excluding patents
  951. # [20:26] * timeless has read some portions of iso c++ (probably proposals as opposed to the final versions)
  952. # [20:26] * timeless remembers visiting the patent office as a child
  953. # [20:27] <timeless> my grandfather (zlb) wanted to file a patent and was doing due diligence
  954. # [20:27] <timeless> (which is something no one seems to do anymore)
  955. # [20:28] <jcranmer> stupid State St. decision
  956. # [20:28] <timeless> and i
  957. # [20:29] <timeless> ve of course read old rfcs
  958. # [20:29] <timeless> especially mime, pop, smtp, imap, nntp ..
  959. # [20:30] <timeless> > 500: Internal Server Error (un unexpected error occurred during processing)
  960. # [20:30] * timeless ponders the random `un`
  961. # [20:31] <timeless> s/sepc/spec/
  962. # [20:31] * timeless suspects no one actually reviewed this sepc
  963. # [20:34] <jcranmer> it's not even at last call yet, I think
  964. # [20:35] <timeless> ?
  965. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> Is it a Living Standard?
  966. # [20:36] * timeless hopes it's an unused standard
  967. # [20:37] <jcranmer> oh, I misread
  968. # [20:37] <timeless> hrm, it's used by google
  969. # [20:37] <jcranmer> I think you were talking about the DevAPI Contacts spec
  970. # [20:37] <timeless> no
  971. # [20:37] <timeless> http://portablecontacts.net/draft-spec.html if you must read it
  972. # [20:37] <timeless> (you were warned)
  973. # [20:38] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-24-29.dynamic.amis.net)
  974. # [20:38] <timeless> ooh, google is getting a new sign in page
  975. # [20:39] <jcranmer> egads
  976. # [20:39] <jcranmer> heavy use of rules
  977. # [20:39] * Quits: zdobersek1 (~zan@cpe-46-164-5-75.dynamic.amis.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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  979. # [20:40] <timeless> ?
  980. # [20:41] <jcranmer> horizontal rules
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  985. # [20:45] <jcranmer> in other words, the spec formatting is complete crap
  986. # [20:45] <jcranmer> which is totally inexcusable if you're using HTML
  987. # [20:50] <timeless> i did try to warn you
  988. # [20:51] * timeless is reading the spec in ms word
  989. # [20:51] <Philip`> Seems to be the default xml2rfc formatting, so you should feel lucky they didn't just use the ASCII output
  990. # [20:53] <timeless> grr
  991. # [20:53] <timeless> the web page i'm visiting is showing me <!--[if !mso]>
  992. # [20:53] <jcranmer> I actually like the ASCII output
  993. # [21:05] <Hixie> AryehGregor: k, i'll nuke onundo and onredo.
  994. # [21:05] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  1004. # [21:56] <zcorpan> so could somebody explain to me what's bad about constants appearing on both the interface object and the prototype?
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  1007. # [22:01] <zcorpan> does ecmascript have a convention for constants?
  1008. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> Dunno. I suspect the convention is on the interface.
  1009. # [22:02] <zcorpan> any example?
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  1012. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> For example, the Node interface.
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  1015. # [22:07] <zcorpan> Node was the example used in the thread where constants are on both :)
  1016. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> Heh.
  1017. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> Math.PI
  1018. # [22:07] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.112)
  1019. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> That's *just* an interface object, of course.
  1020. # [22:07] <zcorpan> there's no object implementing Math
  1021. # [22:07] <zcorpan> yeah
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  1023. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> In IDB, IDBRequest, IDBCursor, and IDBTransaction all put constants on the interface. The only thing with constants on the object is IDBDatabaseException, which matches the general exception pattern.
  1024. # [22:11] <zcorpan> doesn't IDB just use webidl to declare its constants?
  1025. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  1026. # [22:12] <zcorpan> then webidl makes the constants appear on the prototype also
  1027. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> Oh, then I'm confused. What did you mean by "interface object" if not a WebIDL interface?
  1028. # [22:14] <zcorpan> "interface object" is defined in webidl
  1029. # [22:14] <zcorpan> window.Node is an interface object
  1030. # [22:14] <zcorpan> Node.ELEMENT_NODE is defined and Node.prototype.ELEMENT_NODE is also
  1031. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> Ah, okay. Then shrug, if you use IDL you just define them on both I guess.
  1032. # [22:16] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2011JulSep/0314.html
  1033. # [22:19] * Joins: _bga (~bga@ppp78-37-203-94.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  1034. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> Ah, then I won't be able to help much. I don't know much about what happens on the pure-ES side of things.
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  1054. # [23:18] * zcorpan removed onundo and onredo from html-elements
  1055. # [23:19] <zewt> heh what the
  1056. # [23:19] <zewt> just installed current opera and apparently the ui is a straight-up chrome mimic now
  1057. # [23:19] <bga_> :(
  1058. # [23:20] <bga_> 9.64 is best
  1059. # [23:20] <zewt> uhh
  1060. # [23:20] <zewt> apparently onbeforeunload is completely broken in opera now?
  1061. # [23:20] <zewt> compose mail in gmail, close tab, mail lost
  1062. # [23:21] <zcorpan> i don't think onbeforeunload has ever worked in opera
  1063. # [23:21] <bga_> opera keep pages during 2 min on memory after you close it
  1064. # [23:22] <bga_> may be you want reopen it again
  1065. # [23:22] <zewt> well, i compose a mail, close the tab, control-alt-t and the changes are gone, so
  1066. # [23:22] <zewt> strange to be missing such a basic thing
  1067. # [23:24] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  1068. # [23:26] <zewt> gah opera made itself the default browser without asking
  1069. # [23:28] <zcorpan> opera knows what you want :)
  1070. # [23:28] <zewt> opera is telling me what i want, my opinion doesn't seem to enter into it
  1071. # [23:29] <zcorpan> which OS?
  1072. # [23:29] <zewt> windows
  1073. # [23:29] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-xplcmlffknwlysme) (Quit: KillerX)
  1074. # [23:29] <zewt> just very strange to throw away one of the most basic, well-established things You Have To Ask Permission For
  1075. # [23:33] <zcorpan> windows 7?
  1076. # [23:36] <zewt> xp
  1077. # [23:37] <zcorpan> ok
  1078. # [23:37] <zewt> it seems like there was a heedless rush for "zero-click installs" (which is actually one-click since there's still EULA crap), without much concern that there are things you have to ask, heh
  1079. # [23:37] <jgraham> zewt: Are we using the same Opera? I don't think "chrome mimic" is even close
  1080. # [23:38] <jgraham> And yeah, onbeforeunload doesn't work in opera
  1081. # [23:38] <bga_> jgraham you just have old config
  1082. # [23:38] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  1083. # [23:39] <jgraham> bga_: It would have to be a pretty epic configuration change
  1084. # [23:40] <jgraham> (possibly you just mean that the theme looks a bit like chrome or something)
  1085. # [23:40] <zcorpan> maybe opera and chrome look more alike on windows than on mac
  1086. # [23:40] <jgraham> But ui !== theme
  1087. # [23:40] <jgraham> except in a very superficial way
  1088. # [23:40] <zewt> https://zewt.org/~glenn/foo1.png https://zewt.org/~glenn/foo2.png
  1089. # [23:41] <zewt> tabs even animate almost identically now
  1090. # [23:41] <zewt> the "opera" button is more like FF, i guess
  1091. # [23:42] <jgraham> Well you have the same website open in both. That's pretty similar I guess
  1092. # [23:42] <zewt> don't get me wrong, i'm fine with browsers ganking stuff from other browsers when it's a good idea, just compared to the last time i installed opera it was pretty "wtf?"
  1093. # [23:43] <jgraham> hen was the last time you installed Opera?
  1094. # [23:43] <zewt> also i sat there for a second hitting alt-f trying to open the menu and apparently keyboard shortcuts are old and busted :(
  1095. # [23:43] <jgraham> It is pretty differnet from Opera 5...
  1096. # [23:43] <zewt> 10 maybe? it had a standard menu, heh
  1097. # [23:44] * Quits: janv_ (~varga@195.91.87.57) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  1098. # [23:46] <Dashiva> Probably 9.x then
  1099. # [23:47] <jgraham> I thought the single menu was introduced in 10.50
  1100. # [23:47] <zewt> maybe an earlier 10?
  1101. # [23:47] <zewt> seems like a big UI change to make without bumping a major version number, though
  1102. # [23:48] <zcorpan> at opera, .50 is a major version. sometimes.
  1103. # [23:49] <jgraham> If our version numbering is correlated with something, no one has explained the system to me and I m not bright enough o reverse engineer it
  1104. # [23:49] <zewt> that sounds like a great way to confuse users heh
  1105. # [23:49] <jgraham> I'm not saying it *isn't* correlated to anything
  1106. # [23:49] <zewt> if i'm on x.y and i upgrade to x.z, i'm doing so with the expectation of not seeing huge ui changes
  1107. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Quick question: on http://www.xanthir.com/etc/exif/ do you see all three Fs as the same size?
  1108. # [23:50] <jgraham> Just that I'm not in the desktop team :)
  1109. # [23:50] <zewt> left squiggly F is smaller
  1110. # [23:50] <zewt> in ff6
  1111. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> What. The. Hell. For some reason FF and only FF is receiving an older version of the first image that's bigger (and thus scales to a smaller size).
  1112. # [23:51] <jgraham> Same in Opera
  1113. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> IE and Chrome get the correct image. wtf
  1114. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> There, fixed. Dunno what was up, but deleting the file on the server and re-uploading fixed it.
  1115. # [23:56] <zewt> there are heisenbugs, schroedinbugs and screwitbugs
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  1117. # Session Close: Sat Aug 27 00:00:00 2011

The end :)