/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-30 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Aug 30 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [07:53] <zcorpan> does ie support <mark>?
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# [08:31] <annevk> Hixie, "<td> Whether the element is an editable" seems wrong
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# [08:39] <annevk> anything happened btw?
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# [08:40] <annevk> hmm, the new blog styling has a lot of whitespace
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# [08:44] <zcorpan> whatwg blog?
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# [08:44] <annevk> yeah
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# [08:57] <zcorpan> i don't see it being different from a few months ago?
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# [09:00] <annevk> well nimbu changed it with help from jgraham so you must be missing something or have something cached
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# [09:04] <woef> As far as analogies go, would you think it's fair to say <article> broadly matches back-end content types?
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# [09:06] <annevk> depends on what back-end content types are
# [09:06] <zcorpan> i reloaded http://blog.whatwg.org/wp-content/themes/org.whatwg.awesome/style.css but still looks the same. i guess i'm missing something, then
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# [09:13] <annevk> compare with http://web.archive.org/web/20100823233819/http://blog.whatwg.org/
# [09:16] <zcorpan> ah. ok
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# [09:18] <woef> annevk: well, typically article, product, blogpost, event ... structured content.
# [09:18] <woef> Usually appears in a list-detail structure.
# [09:24] <annevk> sounds about right
# [09:25] <woef> Cool, a bit easier to understand than the usual "syndication" stuff imo :)
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# [09:37] <annevk> oh yes
# [09:37] <annevk> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/93951
# [09:37] <annevk> weinig+++
# [09:37] <asmodai> wow
# [09:37] <asmodai> lovely diginotar fuckup
# [09:39] <annevk> ?
# [09:39] <asmodai> Dutch certificate provider gave a wildcard certificate for *.google.com
# [09:39] <asmodai> to some Iranian requester or something along those lines
# [09:39] <asmodai> annevk: http://tweakers.net/nieuws/76444/iran-gebruikt-nederlands-certificaat-om-gmail-te-onderscheppen.html
# [09:40] <asmodai> http://tweakers.net/nieuws/76445/browsermakers-geven-nieuwe-versies-uit-na-diginotar-blunder.html
# [09:53] <jgraham> annevk: I don't think it has anything like excessive whitespace. Indeed ideally I would like it to look more like e.g. diveintomark with no sidebar
# [09:56] <annevk> jgraham, feel free to modify the templates
# [09:56] <annevk> archives and categories are pretty useless imo
# [09:56] <annevk> so we would just need those sidebar links presented differently
# [09:58] <jgraham> Yeah, it's a bit non-trivial to modify the actual templates without being able to download them
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# [09:59] <annevk> I can prolly get you ssh access if I remember all the details
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# [10:11] <annevk> zcorpan, did you introduce the prefix match for "xmlns" in setAttribute()?
# [10:11] <annevk> zcorpan, see thread on www-dom
# [10:14] <zcorpan> annevk: don't remember
# [10:14] <zcorpan> annevk: seems bogus
# [10:15] <zcorpan> annevk: so it must have been you :P
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# [10:21] <annevk> heh, will take the blame :)
# [10:22] <annevk> even though I have no recollection of specifying these methods
# [10:22] <annevk> maybe I should blame gsnedders, I hear he is away
# [10:22] <annevk> http://www.mnot.net/blog/2011/08/24/distributed_hungarian_notation_doesnt_work didn't we ask mnot for an alternative to Sec-?
# [10:24] <annevk> indeed
# [10:24] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JanMar/0623.html
# [10:24] <annevk> lovely complaining on your blog while not providing solutions
# [10:24] <jgraham> Or blame Ms2ger
# [10:24] <jgraham> But do it on Google+ so he can't see
# [10:24] <Ms2ger> jgraham, isn't that your job?
# [10:25] <Ms2ger> Oh, and that prefix match was you
# [10:26] <annevk> me?
# [10:26] <Ms2ger> Yep
# [10:27] <annevk> i still blame gsnedders
# [10:27] <annevk> added a comment to mnot's post
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# [10:32] <zcorpan> this is why we shouldn't have multiple editors. makes it harder to place blame.
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# [10:35] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, that's what hg is for :)
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# [10:37] <zcorpan> what you mean 'the tools will save us'? silly
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# [11:40] <jgraham> annevk: Isn't document.contains(node) different to node.inDocument in the case of multiple documents?
# [11:41] <annevk> yes
# [11:42] <annevk> I wonder when you want to know the latter but not the former
# [11:43] <jgraham> Well that seems like an important criterion in determining the right API to add
# [11:43] <gsnedders> annevk: IT WASN'T ME.
# [11:43] * gsnedders looks innocent
# [11:44] <annevk> jgraham, yes
# [11:45] <Ms2ger> node.ownerDocument.contains(node), then?
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# [11:46] <annevk> time to get some food
# [11:49] <zcorpan> maybe we want node.topMostAncestor instead
# [11:50] <annevk> Ms2ger, btw, the DocumentType.ownerDocument change breaks Acid3
# [11:50] <Ms2ger> Time to fix Acid3, then
# [11:50] <roc> acid3--
# [11:50] <annevk> agreed
# [11:50] <annevk> changing Acid3 does not seem very simple however :(
# [11:51] <Ms2ger> roc, acid2?
# [11:51] <annevk> but ignoring it for now probably works and at some point it will have to adapt or die
# [11:51] <Ms2ger> Hixie, please fix acid3, thanks
# [12:02] <annevk> renameNode semantics sound more like mv in shell
# [12:02] <annevk> moveNode
# [12:02] <annevk> well, moveElement
# [12:03] <annevk> actually, nm
# [12:09] <asmodai> annevk: gets better, looks like that root authority has now been hacked by Iranians
# [12:09] <asmodai> annevk: http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00002228.html
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# [12:30] <smaug____> Ms2ger: what is "node document"
# [12:31] <smaug____> strangely named
# [12:31] * Ms2ger blames annevk
# [12:31] <Ms2ger> It's just ownerDocument
# [12:31] <smaug____> Ms2ger: and, createDocument doesn't work atm
# [12:31] <smaug____> "If the doctype's node document is not null, throw a WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR exception and terminate the overall set of steps."
# [12:32] <Ms2ger> Didn't I change that?
# [12:32] * Ms2ger checks
# [12:33] <Ms2ger> Er, I didn't
# [12:35] <smaug____> Ms2ger: so what is your plan? just remove steps 1 and 2
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# [12:55] <annevk> node document is named after XMLHttpRequest document
# [13:00] <smaug____> Ms2ger: so, what is the plan? Allow using dtd nodes even if they are already bound to some other document?
# [13:00] <Ms2ger> Auto-adopt, like we do for all nodes
# [13:01] <smaug____> k
# [13:01] <zcorpan> but doctypes have special powers!!
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# [13:10] <annevk> and soon they have none
# [13:11] <annevk> it's a shame browsers support document.doctype at all
# [13:14] <Ms2ger> Acid3?
# [13:14] <annevk> I think for Opera it was Acid3 yes
# [13:15] <smaug____> yeah, I'm just trying to load acid3 to test whether these changes break it
# [13:15] <smaug____> but the site seems to be down
# [13:15] <annevk> Acid3 has a check for ownerDocument being null after createDocumentType()
# [13:16] <smaug____> interesting
# [13:16] <smaug____> someone is going to blame me for breaking it in FF
# [13:16] <smaug____> I do remember that acid3 has seemingly random tests about dtd and createDocument
# [13:16] <annevk> I am planning on writing a blog post at some point about the wrongs of Acid3
# [13:17] <smaug____> we need to change acid3
# [13:17] <annevk> might salute you for not caring (and IE for not caring about SMIL)
# [13:17] <smaug____> http://acid3.acidtests.org/ is very very slow
# [13:18] <jgraham> smaug____: Hixie's server is having issues
# [13:18] <smaug____> again :(
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# [13:21] <smaug____> would be interesting if acid3 was changed so that all the current browsers start to fail in a test
# [13:22] <jgraham> Would be nice if ACID3 was retired as a failed experiment (maybe)
# [13:23] <smaug____> yes, that would be good
# [13:23] <hsivonen> wiki.whatwg.org is apparently on the same server that's having issues :-(
# [13:23] <annevk> Hixie uses one server
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# [13:53] <gsnedders> How frickin' hard can it be to return a broken laptop: obviously very.
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# [13:55] <hsivonen> Are Apple and Opera zapping the DigiNotar root?
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# [14:13] <smaug____> Hixie: could you remove assertEquals(doctype.ownerDocument, null, "doctype's ownerDocument was wrong after creation"); from acid3. Per DOM Core dtd nodes have ownerDocument
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# [14:18] <Kellen`> hsivonen: is there any progress towards a validator.nu library which can be used by external projects?
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# [14:33] <hsivonen> Kellen`: no real progress. it's part of the long-term plan, but there's other stuff ahead of it in my work queue
# [14:34] <hsivonen> Kellen`: if you need it now, I suggest writing a mock servlet request/response objects for running VerifierServletTransaction in a holder that makes it think it lives in a servlet container
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# [14:34] <hsivonen> s/objects/object pair/
# [14:35] <Kellen`> hsivonen: that's one possibility. i need to validate a few gigs of data so it seemed like it could be a bottleneck to send HTTP requests everywhere
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# [14:40] <annevk> Ms2ger, using concept-node-pre-insert is probably wrong for a bunch of cases
# [14:40] <Ms2ger> Tell me about it
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# [14:40] <annevk> Ms2ger, my idea was that pre-insert would also do modification listener stuff
# [14:40] <Kellen`> hsivonen: are you open to contributions towards making the validator library or would that cause extra problems for you?
# [14:41] <annevk> I guess we can cross that bridge later... when it is more clear how modifications listeners are going to work
# [14:41] <Ms2ger> Which is fine, because you can't add listeners to a document before it's created, no?
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# [14:42] <annevk> hmm
# [14:42] <hsivonen> Kellen`: I'm open to contributions (under the MIT license) but preferably with design discussion beforehand and not out of the blue
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# [14:46] <hsivonen> oh well. WebVTT didn't evolve the way I wanted, but at least there's forward motion: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=64132
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# [14:47] <Kellen`> hsivonen: okay thanks. I'll take a look at the servlet code and see how I feel about it. I'll get back to you before/if I do any serious development work on it.
# [14:55] <hsivonen> Kellen`: ok. thanks
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# [16:04] <annevk> Ms2ger, how is the Attr migration going?
# [16:05] <Ms2ger> Nothing much happening
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# [16:23] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011
# [16:25] <jgraham> Wow
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# [16:25] <jgraham> That's quite some progress
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# [16:29] <jgraham> Maybe should propose something testing related if I get to attend.
# [16:33] <jgraham> (not sure xactly what has the right level of appeal and isn't covered by the testing IG meeting or so)
# [16:33] <jgraham> +e
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# [16:41] <karlcow> even far to be a niche problem… it's one of the first questions I get when talking about mediaqueries for background images. "OH cool!!! How can I use it for img too?"
# [16:44] <zewt> different images for different screen resolutions? uh, no...
# [16:45] <zewt> for different screen sizes vs. dpi, perhaps
# [16:45] <Ms2ger> <img lowsrc=foo>
# [16:47] <zewt> (yuck)
# [16:47] <karlcow> lowsrc is not enough
# [16:48] <karlcow> you need to be able to select the screen size.
# [16:48] <zewt> screen size is meaningless without dpi as well
# [16:49] <zewt> (and even then is only meaningful on mobile browsers, not on anything where the window size is variable)
# [16:49] <zewt> (technically the window size is variable on android's browser, but)
# [16:50] * karlcow has a tendency to resize his windows on desktop to get the mediaqueries for small screens. Better sites usually.
# [16:51] <zewt> i always use maximized browsers, myself
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# [16:52] <karlcow> zewt: never for me. :)
# [16:54] <zewt> heh, this is also one of the rare cases where progressive jpeg could have been useful, if it was possible for browsers to request the number of passes to download
# [16:55] <zewt> so it could download however much is needed for the resolution it's actually displaying at (and then resume the download to get more, if that changes)
# [16:58] <annevk> karlcow, if you are already talking in the context of images it's not surprising the question comes up
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# [16:58] <karlcow> annevk: not sure how does it relate to what we are saying.
# [16:58] <karlcow> contextual images is a **need**, not a niche problem, and a growing frustration from designers.
# [16:58] <karlcow> it is already implemented and well used for background-images in CSS
# [16:58] <karlcow> people want it for img element
# [16:59] <annevk> what's wrong with using a high-resolution image?
# [16:59] <karlcow> It has nothing to do with the resolution
# [17:01] <karlcow> for example, contextual images are an image where you would have a "Logo + company name" (let's say a 400 pixels banner) then when you reach a smaller screen, you want to display only the logo without the company name, (like a 100px square logo)
# [17:01] <karlcow> It is just an example.
# [17:02] <karlcow> a thumbnail of an image at a small size is not necessary the full image but a crop of the bigger image.
# [17:02] <zewt> i'd think you'd just have two images in that case, toggled on mutually exclusively with css, not a single image with src magic
# [17:02] <karlcow> like for example a rectangle image and you show a square crop at smaller size
# [17:02] <karlcow> etc etc
# [17:02] <karlcow> zewt: you are not forced to limit yourself to two images
# [17:03] <zewt> yes, you can have three or four images, again with visibility controlled with css :)
# [17:03] <karlcow> because you can precisely target a very large screen, a tablet screen, a giant billboard, a desktop screen, etc.
# [17:03] <zewt> (not ideal, since it won't work well if the stylesheet isn't loaded, but "css is optional" doesn't exactly work in practice very often anyway heh)
# [17:03] * shetech thinks this would be great for targeting mobile vs. full screen
# [17:06] <zewt> karlcow: what i'm saying is, why do this with a complex <img> mechanism, instead of implementing it with multiple, distinct <img> nodes, controlling visibility on each (whether with css or otherwise)
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# [17:07] <annevk> <img> is already way complex, adding some conditional resource loading on top of it used by a couple of authors is not worth it
# [17:08] <jgraham> I think characterising it as :a couple of authors" is not very fair
# [17:08] <karlcow> yup
# [17:08] <shetech> jgraham+1
# [17:08] <woef> Is Apple already conforming to the media="handheld" on css files for it's mobile devices?
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# [17:09] <zewt> (what use would that be? a "handheld" device might have a display in the same class as a desktop pc)
# [17:09] <annevk> jgraham, maybe not, is <source> a success?
# [17:09] <zewt> (or a laptop, more practically)
# [17:09] <woef> zewt: so it's out of the spec?
# [17:10] <zewt> i don't know anything about it; i'm asking since it sounds useless to me on first impression
# [17:10] <annevk> woef, you should use media queries instead
# [17:10] <annevk> handheld is an old concept, nearly obsolete
# [17:10] <zewt> good :)
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# [17:11] <woef> But media queries are based on browser window size right?
# [17:12] <woef> If I reduce the size of my browse I don't necessarily want to end up with some iPad-enhanced css
# [17:12] <woef> *browser
# [17:12] <woef> Probably should say *degraded
# [17:12] <annevk> they select on capabilities
# [17:12] <annevk> viewport size being one of them
# [17:14] <karlcow> zewt see http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/an-introduction-to-meta-viewport-and-viewport/
# [17:15] <woef> "handheld" just sounded like a good "crap for phones" alternative to me :)
# [17:15] <zewt> (i know about meta viewport, doesn't seem relevant here though)
# [17:15] <karlcow> and http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-device-adapt/#the-lsquoresolutionrsquo-property
# [17:16] <karlcow> oops I meant for woef
# [17:17] <zewt> heh, meta viewport was pretty nastily inconsistent between iOS and android last i used it (three cheers for vendors making crap up as they go, because it's the 90s, right?)
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# [17:17] <karlcow> about mediaqueries and selection on capabilities
# [17:17] * karlcow is impatient to see that implemented
# [17:17] <karlcow> @viewport {
# [17:17] <karlcow> width: device-width;
# [17:17] <karlcow> }
# [17:18] <karlcow> instead of having to tweak the HTML code with meta
# [17:18] <zewt> and fun when you need different versions for ios and android
# [17:19] <zewt> ended up having to use document.write to handle that :|
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# [17:19] <zewt> (the only time i can ever remember having had to use that)
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# [17:21] <woef> Btw, how I came to this question:
# [17:21] <woef> I was asked to remove a bg-image for mobile (because of bandwidth issues)
# [17:21] <woef> So screen-size is really not an interesting capability here.
# [17:22] <zewt> @media 2g? :P
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# [17:24] <zewt> that isn't mobile-specific, though--there are painfully slow links that aren't mobile
# [17:25] <zewt> (ever try viewing a site in China during their prime time?)
# [17:25] <zewt> (at least in the US)
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# [17:25] <woef> As a broad guess, it's probably not bad though.
# [17:25] <zewt> oh it's much much worse
# [17:27] <zewt> and conversely, many people on mobile have very fast links--it'd be reducing the site unnecessarily for them
# [17:27] <jgraham> annevk: <source> seems to be a success, yes. Although it addresses a quite different problem
# [17:27] <zewt> it's the wrong metric for adjusting for bandwidth capability
# [17:27] <woef> Probably, but it's better than nothing though.
# [17:28] <woef> Which is pretty much the perfect summary of 20 years of webdev :p
# [17:28] <annevk> jgraham, where is it used?
# [17:28] <annevk> jgraham, <source> takes a media query
# [17:29] <gsnedders> zewt: Equally, different resources on the same page could be fetched over different connection types
# [17:29] <zewt> that's much more niche
# [17:30] <zewt> mobile could in theory do some stuff over wifi and some over 3g, but i don't know why they would
# [17:36] <gsnedders> zewt: It's not that niche if you're on, e.g., a bus, or a train, or in a car.
# [17:36] <gsnedders> zewt: Basically any reasonably quick-moving phone can hit that issue.
# [17:36] <zewt> but you're still only using a single connection type at a time
# [17:38] <gsnedders> 3G -> 2G is possible, esp. seeming sites often cause multiple connections to the server to be created
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# [19:11] <timeless> zewt: my BlackBerry probably does some stuff over WiFi and some stuff over cellular
# [19:12] <timeless> i think it can choose to send corporate VPN stuff over cellular if it needs to
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# [19:42] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No, we're not [revokeing the DigiNotar root yet], just relying on protection against blocked revocation lists.
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# [19:44] <timeless> gsnedders: how do you do that?
# [19:44] <timeless> if the ocsp responder is down, what then?
# [19:44] <gsnedders> timeless: I don't know the detail
# [19:44] * timeless hasn't checked the crls they issue to see how long they're valid
# [19:44] <timeless> (but generally one can replay an old crl)
# [19:45] <hsivonen> I thought Moxie Marlinspike had shown that CRLs don't work
# [19:45] <timeless> they don't
# [19:45] <hsivonen> or don't work with the defaults of non-Opera browsers? does Opera have different behavior?
# [19:45] <timeless> and yeah
# [19:45] <timeless> oh, i misread
# [19:46] <timeless> gsnedders really did say they were relying on CRLs and not OCSP
# [19:46] <gsnedders> timeless: I did?
# [19:46] <timeless> `blocked revocation lists` implies `revocation lists` implies `crl`
# [19:46] * gsnedders notes it's been a long time since he's looked at a lot of this
# [19:46] <timeless> as opposed to OCSP which isn't really a list
# [19:47] * gsnedders looks up OCSP, and remembers how that works
# [19:47] <gsnedders> Okay, I was grouping OCSP and CRLs as the same thing.
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# [19:48] <timeless> ok, they're idiots
# [19:48] <timeless> the CRL they have right now http://service.diginotar.nl/crl/root/latestCRL.crl next updates 2/3/2012
# [19:48] <timeless> wtf
# [19:49] <timeless> it also claims it was last updated 2/3/2011
# [19:49] <gsnedders> timeless: AFAIK if the OCSP responder is down, we treat the the site as untrusted.
# [19:49] <gsnedders> Because we can't guarantee the cert is valid.
# [19:51] * timeless kinda wishes this stuff was documented in some easy to review place
# [19:51] <timeless> (one place for all browsers)
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# [19:51] <timeless> (security through distributed obscurity)
# [19:52] <gsnedders> timeless: default-secure for OCSP being down seems bad, though
# [19:53] <timeless> oh yeah, i'm not arguing that
# [19:53] <timeless> i just wish i could look at a single web page to get a list of what each browser does for this stuff
# [19:53] <timeless> i shouldn't have to spend 10 minutes reversing how each browser behaves
# [19:53] <timeless> (nor should i have to waste anyone else's time for each browser)
# [19:53] <gsnedders> as since revoked the digital certificate. This is not a Microsoft security vulnerability; however, the certificate potentially affects...
# [19:53] <gsnedders> 21 minutes ago · Share
# [19:53] <gsnedders> Korin Tom Queen Mine's Opera. Dunno how we're affected.
# [19:53] <gsnedders> 19 minutes ago
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Sam Vennall Might wanna double check your security certificates
# [19:54] <gsnedders> 18 minutes ago
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Sam Vennall The one you should be worried about is DigiNotar
# [19:54] <gsnedders> 18 minutes ago
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Korin Tom Queen Nothing seems to be an issue. Geoffrey Sneddon?
# [19:54] <gsnedders> 15 minutes ago
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Axel Theodor Rolandsson Klingberg Umm, Chrome?
# [19:54] <timeless> heh
# [19:54] <gsnedders> 14 minutes ago
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Daniel Callander http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/jya5h/gmailcom_being_mitmd_by_iran_using_this/
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Google's domain is being man-in-the-middle'd by the Iranian Government. This doesn't affect us, however. Only people connecting from around Iran.
# [19:54] <gsnedders> But if you have a root certifcate for DigiNotar you should probably delete it.Gmail.com being MITM'd by Iran using this certificate : programming
# [19:54] <gsnedders> www.reddit.com
# [19:54] <gsnedders> reddit: the front page of the internet
# [19:54] <gsnedders> 14 minutes ago
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Sam Vennall Fair enough.
# [19:54] <gsnedders> 13 minutes ago
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Sam Vennall You're fine. Google caught it
# [19:54] <gsnedders> 13 minutes ago
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Michael Dyson No problems. I have a certificate pre-screener for FireFox xD.
# [19:54] <gsnedders> 12 minutes ago
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Uh,. shit.
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Totally didn't just paste from the wrong clipboard.
# [19:54] <gsnedders> Sorry.
# [19:55] <gsnedders> http://my.opera.com/securitygroup/blog/2011/08/30/when-certificate-authorities-are-hacked-2
# [19:55] <timeless> it was amusing
# [19:55] <gsnedders> That's the right clipboard.
# [19:56] <timeless> so..
# [19:56] <timeless> minor problem
# [19:56] <timeless> revocation url *usually* means CRL
# [19:56] <timeless> and their CRL was last updated in February
# [19:56] <timeless> at best they've updated their OCSP server
# [19:56] <gsnedders> Yeah, it's not the best of posts.
# [19:56] <gsnedders> I'd trust if Sigbjørn claims it's fine that they have updated OCSP.
# [19:56] <timeless> if you guys means OCSP responder
# [19:57] <timeless> .. it'd be good if your post was updated to clarify the text to use "responder"
# [19:57] <timeless> instead of "revocation url"
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# [19:57] <gsnedders> timeless: email sigbjorn@opera.com
# [19:57] <timeless> ok
# [19:57] * timeless sighs and pulls up blackberry-gmail
# [19:58] * gsnedders is about to head off
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# [20:07] <timeless> gsnedders: email sent... kinda
# [20:07] * timeless waits for gmail.java to finish "Sending message..."
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# [20:08] <timeless> and gah, your my site requires me to log in
# [20:08] <timeless> e-way-too-painful
# [20:09] <gsnedders> timeless: Should be possible to post an anon comment on myopera
# [20:09] <timeless> Write a comment You must be logged in to write a comment. If you're not a registered member, please sign up.
# [20:09] <timeless> i could see if bugmenot can help..
# [20:09] <gsnedders> It used to be possible to post anon comments, at least
# [20:10] <zewt> heh sites that expect you to sign up for an account to leave a comment are sort of, uh, ... no, heh
# [20:10] <timeless> i wouldn't mind so much if i could use google/facebook creds
# [20:10] <timeless> maybe
# [20:10] <timeless> i still wouldn't do it
# [20:10] <timeless> since i don't share those creds w/ work
# [20:10] <timeless> but i wouldn't mind so much!
# [20:10] <zewt> not as bad as sites that try to make you sign up for an account for no reason at all
# [20:11] <zewt> as if people signing up for accounts is an end by itself
# [20:12] <gsnedders> zewt: But it is!
# [20:12] <zewt> even better, when combined with arbitrary blacklists
# [20:12] <zewt> eg. "you can't sign up with a free email"
# [20:12] <timeless> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2403472&cid=37247406
# [20:14] <zewt> win7's file manager is so much worse than xp's, i don't expect it'll recover for many windows generations :|
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# [20:15] <zewt> applications seem to reach a peak, at which point engineering knows they don't really need further changing--at which point marketing takes over to force further changes, causing a bottomless downwards spiral
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# [20:17] <timeless> darn, i learned about something useful from /. : http://www.officelabs.com/projects/searchcommands/Pages/default.aspx
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# [20:17] <timeless> what's the world coming to?
# [20:18] <zewt> heh
# [20:18] <zewt> a ui that needs a search engine to find menu items is ...
# [20:18] <timeless> actually
# [20:19] <timeless> have you used win7's start menu?
# [20:19] <zewt> yeah it's terrible
# [20:19] * timeless loves being able to type into the text box that appears at its bottom
# [20:19] <timeless> it's like a command line
# [20:19] <timeless> and you can do something similar in control panel
# [20:19] <timeless> very handy
# [20:19] <zewt> the searching is okay but they threw away a very heavily polished menu ui that we had a decade and a half of experience and muscle memory using
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# [20:20] * timeless nods
# [20:20] <timeless> i've been using windows since 3.0
# [20:20] <zewt> shows a serious and complete lack of caring about existing users
# [20:20] <timeless> (i've used older versions, but i wasn't using it)
# [20:20] <timeless> actually
# [20:20] <timeless> they were very careful
# [20:20] <timeless> they studied users and discovered what they could change
# [20:20] <timeless> and what they couldn't
# [20:20] <timeless> they're *incredibly* careful not to change keystrokes
# [20:20] <timeless> because power user muscle memory there is very important
# [20:20] <zewt> ... but they threw away the entire start menu interface, which is fundamental muscle memory
# [20:21] <timeless> e.g. they had yes/no/cancel dialogs when you closed an unsaved document in notepad/paint/etc.
# [20:21] <timeless> the dialog now says save/don't save/cancel
# [20:21] <zewt> they changed the post display-mode-change confirmation from "yes/no" to like "keep/cancel", breaking the &y shortcut
# [20:21] <zewt> pressing backspace in file explorer to go up a level doesn't always work (sometimes it acts like "back")
# [20:21] <timeless> but in the old dialog you could use 'n' to mean "no", and you can still use "n" to mean "don't save"
# [20:21] <timeless> yes, they broke the "yes" case
# [20:21] <timeless> but that's ok, for the yes case, you could have been using <space>
# [20:22] <timeless> (and maybe you were)
# [20:22] <zewt> what you could have been using isn't really relevant
# [20:22] <timeless> worst case there, you hear the beep and press space
# [20:22] <zewt> my muscle memory is what i'm using, not what i might have been :)
# [20:22] <zewt> (that one's not a major case, just a random example)
# [20:22] <timeless> well, they studied large numbers of users to determine which ones people used in high concentrations
# [20:22] <timeless> there are some amusing stories about which ones they could change and which they coudn't
# [20:22] <zewt> i don't care what "lots of people use", i care about what i use, heh
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# [20:23] <timeless> you're greedy :)
# [20:23] <zewt> win7's file explroer is also mysteriously missing the window icon (system menu icon), which is annoying since i use that to close windows
# [20:23] <zewt> (it's still there--you can still double-click where the system menu should be to close the window--but it's not visible)
# [20:23] <timeless> yeah
# [20:23] <zewt> strange inconsistency since everything else has it
# [20:23] <timeless> i think that's because they wanted to get rid of the window proxy
# [20:23] <timeless> windows explorer used to have a window proxy there
# [20:23] <timeless> which was "special"
# [20:24] <timeless> and a rarely used feature
# [20:24] <zewt> file explorer has some of the worst breakages, overall
# [20:24] <timeless> anyway, i'll be glad to see w7's explorer replaced by the ribbon ui
# [20:24] <zewt> eg. no keyboard shortcuts at all for copy/save "overwrite file", etc. prompts, short of tediously tabbing around
# [20:24] <timeless> really no shortcuts there?
# [20:24] * timeless tries to remember how to get that dialog easily
# [20:25] <zewt> previously it was just &yes or &all
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# [20:26] <timeless> there's &Do this for the next 1 conflicts
# [20:26] <timeless> and &Skip
# [20:26] <timeless> note that i find the <for the next N conflicts> incredibly valuable
# [20:26] <timeless> and i was complaining about the lack of that style feature in Nokia's Maemo platform
# [20:26] <zewt> but there's no shortcut for the actual confirmation
# [20:26] <timeless> (backup and restore was terrible there
# [20:26] <timeless> you could have 100-800 conflicts
# [20:26] <timeless> and no indication
# [20:26] <timeless> plus no useful grouping!
# [20:26] <timeless> )
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# [20:28] <zewt> no way to get from the location bar to the file list (pressing tab goes to a bunch of other things before hitting the file list again; it even goes to the column headers first); randomly changing view modes regardless of settings; mouseover highlighting is very confusing (two highlighted rows); keyboard prefix-searching is broken (doesn't reset state properly like it used to); i'll stop here :)
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# [20:28] <timeless> for the conflict dialog, i think they made the concious decision that you actually need to read through the dialog and make a real choice
# [20:28] <timeless> which isn't a bad approach
# [20:29] <timeless> yes it hurts power users (who could use copy /y or whatever if they were really power users)
# [20:29] <timeless> but it protects average users (who could really hurt themselves)
# [20:29] <zewt> uh i'm not going to drop to a shell to bypass broken dialogs heh
# [20:29] <zewt> making things deliberately cumbersome is never ever ever an acceptable ui policy
# [20:29] * timeless disagrees
# [20:29] <timeless> security behavior is often that way
# [20:29] <zewt> firefox's ssl exemption dialog is one of the worst ui's i've seen in a long time
# [20:29] <timeless> have you seen mozilla's xpinstall dialog?
# [20:30] <timeless> we intentionally force you to wait 3-5s
# [20:30] <zewt> yeah that's horrible and one of the first bits of nonsense i turn off
# [20:30] <timeless> because we have no choice
# [20:30] <timeless> if you're being gamed by being tricked into playing a game
# [20:30] <timeless> you can easily fill those 3s with keystrokes
# [20:30] <timeless> some of which go to us instead of the web page
# [20:30] <timeless> and then you're screwed
# [20:31] <timeless> fwiw, from the address bar, f6 twice is pretty good
# [20:31] <timeless> in explorer
# [20:31] <timeless> instead of using tab
# [20:32] <zewt> the ssl exemption dialog is frustrating since it's training every user in the world not only to click through one-off prompts, but as many prompts as necessary to make it go awayt
# [20:32] <zewt> (okay, every firefox user :)
# [20:32] <timeless> well
# [20:32] <timeless> the hope is that users will instead *maybe* realize there's actually something *wrong* there
# [20:32] <zewt> it's as if someone thinks making the flawed-but-best-we've-got ssl quirks more annoying will improve the system
# [20:33] <timeless> i'm open to other suggestions
# [20:33] <zewt> don't make things willfully annoying :)
# [20:33] <timeless> offhand, i think an alternative is probably sending users to a search page which searches for the hash of the server's cert
# [20:33] <AryehGregor> Which a MITM will also control.
# [20:33] <timeless> and a way for people to add a comment "this bit me, i don't like <write vendor name here>"
# [20:33] <zewt> that won't help users who need help
# [20:34] <timeless> AryehGregor: it'd be pinned SSL
# [20:34] <timeless> zewt: why not?
# [20:34] <AryehGregor> In that case, why force the user to search for it?
# [20:34] <AryehGregor> Just use something like Perspectives.
# [20:35] <zewt> regular users don't know what a hash is, or a certificate, and have no idea what the entire certificate dialog (in any incarnation) means
# [20:35] <AryehGregor> Or, like, fix SSL so we don't have so many sites with broken certs.
# [20:35] <timeless> sorry
# [20:35] <timeless> lemme define "search"
# [20:35] <timeless> to mean "where a server takes your input and provides results based on it"
# [20:35] <timeless> that could very well *be* perspectives
# [20:35] <zewt> aryeh: i really wish we could have "shttp", which is just https without any certificates--just to give people who don't want to pay for a cert the ability to use ssl without causing certificate failures
# [20:36] * timeless has yet to see an shttp which wasn't just a simpler way to do MITM
# [20:36] <zewt> simpler?
# [20:36] <timeless> yes?
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# [20:36] <zewt> simpler how? heh
# [20:36] <timeless> w/ today's MITM, i have to spend time finding a stupid CA
# [20:37] <timeless> then i have to trick it into giving me a CERT
# [20:37] <timeless> then i have to feed that cert to my server and mitm someone
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# [20:37] <zewt> shttp wouldn't allow MITM against https sites--that's the entire reason it'd be a different protocol name
# [20:37] <timeless> wouldn't shttp allow mitm shttp?
# [20:37] <zewt> yes
# [20:37] <timeless> ?
# [20:38] <timeless> and isn't that simpler than mitm https
# [20:38] * timeless dismisses a periodic "i don't like your mail server cert" dialog
# [20:38] <zewt> shttp should be compared against http, not https
# [20:38] <timeless> (the dialog pops up from an otherwise invisible service, because the service is stupid)
# [20:39] <zewt> perhaps "shttp" is a bad name, since it should absolutely not be viewed as an alternative to https ("real" security), but as an improvement on http (preventing passive sniffing)
# [20:39] <timeless> (the server seems to be round robin with two distinct certificates, which really annoys the service)
# [20:39] <zewt> i wonder if spdy is going anywhere ... that encrypts everything anyway, so it's equivalently secure
# [20:40] <zewt> havn't heard much about it lately
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# [20:43] <roc> we are implementing SPDY
# [20:44] <AryehGregor> And Chrome already has, right?
# [20:44] <AryehGregor> I assume it supports negotiation of some type so you can switch between it and regular HTTP seamlessly.
# [20:46] <AryehGregor> Drat it. I thought of a good reason for why getRangeAt()/addRange() should deal with references (like IE/Gecko) and not copies (like WebKit/Opera), but now I forgot it.
# [20:46] <timeless> heh
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# [20:46] <timeless> grr
# [20:46] * timeless gets 7 update notifications
# [20:47] <timeless> and i get to enter my password once per notification
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# [21:03] <zewt> bluh, ff6 (at least) broke structured clone with File (previously it didn't do anything, now it throws)
# [21:04] <Ms2ger> Blame the spec
# [21:04] <zewt> the spec says it should work
# [21:04] <zewt> (and as I'm only using it with History, it's okay to me if it's silently discarded, but throwing is much worse)
# [21:08] <zewt> (the spec is horribly vague on how structured clone on File is actually supposed to work, but that's a separate problem...)
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# [21:15] <roc> what about nightlies?
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# [21:17] <smaug____> Hixie: ping
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# [21:24] <timeless> grr
# [21:24] <timeless> AryehGregor: so...
# [21:24] <timeless> MikeSmith: or maybe you
# [21:24] <timeless> i want a way to sign up before a community group is approved
# [21:24] <timeless> i.e. i don't want to support a group
# [21:24] <timeless> but if the group is created, i do want its spam
# [21:24] <timeless> and i don't want to be forced to sign up after it is created
# [21:25] <timeless> apparently someone is trying to create a Crypto CG
# [21:26] <zewt> because discussing things on a mailing list we're all already on is far too convenient and open
# [21:26] <timeless> well
# [21:26] <timeless> ignoring that
# [21:26] <timeless> because i don't want to *miss* discussions that someone annoyingly moves to a list i'm *not yet* already on!
# [21:26] <timeless> and i clearly can't prevent that behavior
# [21:27] <zewt> "gotta get away from all these annoying people telling me what i'm doing wrong"
# [21:27] <timeless> but i could at least preempt its damage to me :)
# [21:27] <zewt> was that the one that started out with that bizarre "crypto + address book" nonsense? heh
# [21:27] <timeless> zewt: i didn't look at the guy carefully to figure out if he was one of those
# [21:27] <timeless> did you?
# [21:27] <zewt> i don't remember, it's been a while since that thread
# [21:28] <timeless> from my perspective, reviewing the person takes too much time for me now
# [21:28] <timeless> but asking about a way to avoid missing important mail that is hidden behind some nascent CG
# [21:28] <timeless> seems generically valuable
# [21:28] <timeless> actually, as a gmail user, i'd kinda like a way to tell W3 that i'd like to subscribe to *@cg.w3
# [21:28] <timeless> give me all your spam, i can take it!
# [21:28] <zewt> if it's the "crypto + address book" one i have little hope of anything useful coming out of it, heh
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# [21:31] * timeless chuckles
# [21:31] <timeless> <anne> The mobile devices are the ones with the high-resolution displays.
# [21:31] <timeless> <jreschke> Speak for your own device :-)
# [21:32] <zewt> anything modern certainly is higher resolution than any desktop lcd, heh
# [21:33] <timeless> i have 2880x900
# [21:33] <zewt> on what size display
# [21:33] <timeless> roughly two armspans? (from wrist to elbow x2)
# [21:33] <zewt> err what? heh
# [21:34] * timeless looks for a ruler
# [21:34] <timeless> ooh, i have one at my desk!
# [21:34] <timeless> in its original plastic shrink wrap no less!
# [21:34] <zewt> my monitor is 1920x1200, 24", resolution around 80 dpi
# [21:34] <zewt> my phone is something like 200 dpi?
# [21:35] <zewt> much higher resolution
# [21:35] <timeless> well, each screen is 1440x900 and seems to be 17 or 18:
# [21:35] <timeless> s/:/"
# [21:35] <timeless> i think that people have multiple definitions of "resolution" though
# [21:35] <timeless> some are talking about pixel dimensions
# [21:36] <timeless> and others are talking about ppi
# [21:36] <zewt> well anne was obviously talking about dpi
# [21:36] <timeless> a coworker has pointed out that there's another concept to consider
# [21:36] <timeless> which is roughly css's arc concept
# [21:37] * timeless doesn't know if there's a good way to describe it in short hand
# [21:37] <zewt> there are many factors that make it tricky: screen size, dpi, and average viewing distance all come into play
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# [21:37] <timeless> pixels-per-arc-degree?
# [21:38] <zewt> also the fact that you can zoom the viewport in mobile browsers
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# [21:38] <zewt> (can on desktops too with less versitility, though people seem unfortunately content to let anyone using a higher full-page zoom get blurry images)
# [21:38] <Philip`> Don't forget that it depends on the velocity of the observer too
# [21:39] <zewt> what's the resolution of an iphone falling over the event horizon of a black hole
# [21:39] <timeless> Philip`: are you talking about billboards?
# [21:39] <timeless> (times square/tokyo)
# [21:39] <Philip`> timeless: Just any situation in which relativity matters
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# [21:43] * Philip` thinks authors think "I want to target all things that would be commonly considered to be mobile devices" and it seems silly to force them to say "target all devices with a display resolution >150dpi" (or whatever) as an inaccurate proxy for what they really want
# [21:43] <zewt> i think right now we don't have a solid vocabulary of what's needed, since things have changed so rapidly
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# [21:45] <zewt> i don't think the first-gen iPhone was >150dpi
# [21:45] <zewt> (fwiw)
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# [21:49] <zewt> ipad is something like 130
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# [21:57] <timeless> Philip`: soudns right
# [21:57] <timeless> s/dn/nd/
# [21:57] * timeless sighs
# [21:58] * timeless is relearning to use a keyboard
# [21:58] <timeless> (kinesis arrived yesterday and today is the first day using it)
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# [22:30] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, could you make me the default assignee for DOM Range bugs?
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# [22:32] * Ms2ger is all for that
# [22:35] * timeless suggests not using default assignees this way
# [22:35] <timeless> then you don't have to make such requests regularly :)
# [22:36] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb_)
# [22:37] <AryehGregor> How do you suggest using them?
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# [23:09] <timeless> AryehGregor: have watchable qa contacts per component
# [23:09] <timeless> and default assignees of roughly unassigned@w3.org
# [23:09] <AryehGregor> timeless, I still want to be the default assignee.
# [23:09] <AryehGregor> Not just watch it.
# [23:09] <timeless> whe someone starts working on a bug, they take ownership of the bug
# [23:09] <timeless> why?
# [23:09] <timeless> when you start working on an area, you start watching the qa contact
# [23:10] <timeless> when you stop, you stop watching it
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> I'm the only one working on all these bugs.
# [23:10] <timeless> today
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> Granted.
# [23:10] <timeless> but what happens when that changes?
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> We change all the bugs, obviously. :)
# [23:10] <timeless> you're an average short cited grasshopper
# [23:10] * AryehGregor blames Bugzilla for being broken
# [23:10] <timeless> i'm speaking as a long lived ant
# [23:10] <Ms2ger> cited?
# [23:10] <timeless> listen to my words of experience
# [23:10] <timeless> sited :(
# [23:11] <timeless> ?
# [23:11] <timeless> sighted!
# [23:11] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
# [23:11] * timeless sighs
# [23:11] * timeless sighed
# [23:11] * Philip` prefers "psyted"
# [23:11] <timeless> <cite>AryehGregor</cite>, a short sighted grasshopper
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# [23:12] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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# [23:12] <Ms2ger> Are you calling AryehGregor a piece of work?
# [23:12] <Philip`> (which I suppose could also be a telepathic version of SuperTed)
# [23:12] <timeless> http://www.youtube.com/user/psyted seens potentially NSFW
# [23:12] <timeless> Ms2ger: hey, at least i'm not calling him NSFW :)
# [23:13] <timeless> Ms2ger: can i claim he's self published as a collection of all of his quotations?
# [23:14] <Ms2ger> You could always try
# [23:14] * timeless tries
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# [23:24] <AryehGregor> Did it work?
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# [23:38] <timeless> i'm satisfied with it :)
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# Session Close: Tue Aug 30 23:45:27 2011
#
# Session Start: Tue Aug 30 23:45:27 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [23:45] * Disconnected
# [23:46] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [23:46] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [23:46] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [23:46] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
# [23:49] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [23:51] <karlcow> AryehGregor: before I say more stupid things on the list, let me check here. ;) could the renameElement thing be used to feed the browser with "<foo><bar/></foo>" and then transform it into the DOM as "<p><img/></p>"
# Session Close: Wed Aug 31 00:00:00 2011

The end :)