/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 01 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:14] <Moo^_^> does it taint the canvas if I use images loaded from the same domain, different port? (repeated from #html5)
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  21. # [00:34] <jacobolus> do any desktop browsers fire events for multitouch trackpad gestures?
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  24. # [00:40] <jacobolus> desktop safari doesn't seem to fire 'touchstart' or 'gesturestart', but I guess I can get both X and Y movements out of a 'mousewheel' event
  25. # [00:40] <jacobolus> any way to get pinches or rotations?
  26. # [00:41] <jacobolus> do other browsers support trackpad multitouch?
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  29. # [00:46] <roc> Moo^_^: yes I think so
  30. # [00:47] <Moo^_^> roc: do you know if there exist anything similar to CORS but for images?
  31. # [00:47] * Moo^_^ has not read the spec
  32. # [00:48] <jacobolus> Moo^_^: what's the use case?
  33. # [00:48] <Moo^_^> jacobolus: I want to use images from another domain, but not tainting the canvas
  34. # [00:48] <Moo^_^> need to mash up images from two different sources
  35. # [00:49] <roc> there is CORS for images now
  36. # [00:49] <roc> see the "crossorigin" attribute
  37. # [00:49] <roc> only implemented in latest versions of Chrome and Firefox AFAIK
  38. # [00:49] <zewt> yeah, CORS already does that, for webgl
  39. # [00:52] <Philip`> Moo^_^: Tainting is based on origins, which are scheme+host+port
  40. # [00:53] <Philip`> so changing port is the same as changing host
  41. # [00:53] <Moo^_^> roc: zewt: Philip`: Thanks a lot!
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  120. # [05:48] <rillian> cpearce: it looks like the spec currently lets you add alternate audio/video tracks either using fragments, or through the media.audioTracks[]/media.videoTracks[] interfaces
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  122. # [05:48] <rillian> you can likewise add text tracks through media.textTracks
  123. # [05:48] <rillian> but you can't add alternate audio/video tracks through <track>
  124. # [05:48] <rillian> maybe that's just an oversight
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  182. # [10:06] <annevk> w3.org is offline?
  183. # [10:06] <annevk> cannot connect to IRC or well, anything
  184. # [10:07] <annevk> just a hickup it seems
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  186. # [10:10] <rniwa> annevk: I can access www.w3.org without any issues
  187. # [10:10] <rniwa> annevk: maybe try pinging 128.30.52.37?
  188. # [10:12] <annevk> it's working again
  189. # [10:12] <annevk> very temporary :)
  190. # [10:13] <rniwa> i see
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  198. # [10:30] <annevk> alright
  199. # [10:30] <annevk> time to add Node.contains()
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  202. # [10:33] <Lachy> Nice. HTML context menus now supported in Firefox nightly. https://twitter.com/#!/codepo8/status/108989867278614528
  203. # [10:34] <Lachy> just looks like they're using <menuitem> instead of <command>. Not sure why though
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  206. # [10:37] <annevk> see some debate in a bug report somewhere
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  245. # [11:44] <annevk> so should we have <data-...>
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  267. # [12:08] <annevk> Is there a name for an interface other interfaces inherit from that is never instantiated itself but only exists by virtue of the interfaces that inherit from it?
  268. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> Abstract?
  269. # [12:10] <annevk> So "CharacterData is an abstract interface and does not exist as node. It is used by Text, Comment, and ProcessingInstruction nodes.
  270. # [12:10] <annevk> "
  271. # [12:11] * hsivonen looks forward to OO pedants sending feedback about "abstract interface"
  272. # [12:11] <annevk> If they suggest alternatives it will be all good :)
  273. # [12:12] <annevk> This is just a non-normative note to clarify things since every other heading in that section is about a node
  274. # [12:13] <Ms2ger> Except Node
  275. # [12:14] <annevk> I guess that should get the same note
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  282. # [12:29] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?x%3Cscript%3Edocument.body.firstChild.removeChild%28document.body%29%3C%2Fscript%3E
  283. # [12:29] <annevk> Gecko: HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR, WebKit: NOT_FOUND_ERR
  284. # [12:29] <annevk> I don't think http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-pre-remove actually needs step 1 given step 2
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  286. # [12:30] <annevk> Opera: NOT_FOUND_ERR
  287. # [12:31] <annevk> What do you think Ms2ger?
  288. # [12:31] <Ms2ger> wfm
  289. # [12:31] <Ms2ger> Please do update the test :)
  290. # [12:32] <annevk> I should check out the tests I guess
  291. # [12:33] <annevk> now they are separated from the specification
  292. # [12:34] <annevk> heh
  293. # [12:34] <annevk> added 563 changesets with 1341 changes to 478 files
  294. # [12:38] <annevk> Ms2ger, there is no test?
  295. # [12:38] <Ms2ger> Node-removeChild.html?
  296. # [12:38] <annevk> yeah it does not have a HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR in it
  297. # [12:39] <annevk> guess I can add something that makes Gecko fail
  298. # [12:39] <annevk> it also does a bunch of Attr (node) tests
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  300. # [12:39] <Ms2ger> Not anymore :)
  301. # [12:43] <annevk> added a test for removeChild on a text node
  302. # [12:43] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  303. # [12:43] <annevk> someone else can file a bug on Gecko
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  320. # [13:40] <annevk> I'm starting to think we should just go ahead and merge Range in
  321. # [13:40] <annevk> Is there much else to do that I am missing?
  322. # [13:41] <annevk> Also note it is prerequisite for adding modification listeners
  323. # [13:41] <annevk> Ms2ger, AryehGregor, ^^
  324. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> sURE
  325. # [13:42] * Ms2ger hits caps lock
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  327. # [13:45] <annevk> does this count as written permission per the license? :)
  328. # [13:46] <annevk> whoa
  329. # [13:46] <annevk> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/raw/tip/dom-core.html
  330. # [13:47] <annevk> isn't this some giant XSS hole in bitbucket?
  331. # [13:47] <Ms2ger> Yes
  332. # [13:50] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@92.40.254.210.threembb.co.uk)
  333. # [13:50] <annevk> Ranges is actually pretty big
  334. # [13:55] <Ms2ger> 15 pages or so?
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  336. # [13:57] <annevk> yeah something like that
  337. # [13:57] <annevk> 2000 lines :)
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  342. # [14:19] <hsivonen> that bitbucket thing is scary. has it been reported to bitbucket?
  343. # [14:19] <Ms2ger> Not by me
  344. # [14:20] <hsivonen> and bitbucket has been created *after* people were supposed to know about origins
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  349. # [14:26] <annevk> it looks like a regression
  350. # [14:27] <annevk> what is the "Assert:" stuff Ms2ger?
  351. # [14:27] <annevk> can that be removed?
  352. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> Sure
  353. # [14:28] <gsnedders> assert stuff? where?"
  354. # [14:29] <Ms2ger> DOM Range
  355. # [14:30] <gsnedders> Ah. The asserts there are pretty much all just for WebIDL things>
  356. # [14:30] <gsnedders> *?
  357. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  358. # [14:30] <gsnedders> I'd say they don't add anything, then, really.
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  363. # [14:46] <hsivonen> the DOM Core spec exposed a bug in my new View Source impl...
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  365. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> Oh?
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  367. # [14:49] <annevk> someone with a good term for "ancestors and the node itself"?
  368. # [14:50] <annevk> XPath calls it ancestor or self
  369. # [14:50] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: it appears that I broke the way View Source communicates the charset of the page to the main thread when I fixed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=675499
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  371. # [14:53] <annevk> how about "reverse subtree"
  372. # [14:54] <annevk> (the current term is "ancestor containers")
  373. # [14:54] <hasather> annevk: wouldn't that be a supertree then?
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  375. # [14:56] <hasather> (I guess tree is not a good word to describe it though)
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  377. # [15:01] <annevk> the roof :)
  378. # [15:02] <annevk> hasather, it's the best short word so far
  379. # [15:02] <annevk> hasather, though very novel afaict
  380. # [15:03] <annevk> and it might confuse people who are into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertree
  381. # [15:04] <hasather> annevk: yea, saw that too
  382. # [15:05] <Philip`> "subtree" sounds confusing because you'd think it's a tree with branches, when acually it's just a list
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  386. # [15:07] * Philip` has a book where "ancestor" includes the node itself, and "proper ancestor" doesn't
  387. # [15:10] <annevk> subtree is standard terminology
  388. # [15:10] <annevk> interesting
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  390. # [15:11] <Philip`> subtree is standard when referring to the tree formed by the descendants of a node, but not when referring to the chain of ancestors, I think
  391. # [15:13] <annevk> we'd use supertree for the the ancestor part
  392. # [15:14] <Philip`> "supertree" sounds confusing because you'd think it's a tree with branches, when actually it's just a list
  393. # [15:15] <annevk> alternatives?
  394. # [15:15] * Philip` would probably assume the supertree is the largest tree that contains the given node (i.e. the one rooted at the most distant ancestor)
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  396. # [15:18] <Philip`> If "ancestor" is already defined to exclude the node itself, "ancestor or self" doesn't sound too bad (it's a bit ugly but short and clear), or maybe "inclusive ancestor"
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  398. # [15:21] <annevk> inclusive ancestor sounds rather clear and works a bit better in this context
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  400. # [15:24] <woef> As someone who has no idea what you guys are talking about, "ancestor and self" is much easier to understand than "inclusivve ancestor"
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  403. # [15:27] <annevk> true enough, but understanding this term is the least of your worries when you implement range
  404. # [15:27] <Philip`> The term (and "ancestor" by itself) should be linked to a precise definition, so I guess it's not too bad if people have to click the link to find what you mean
  405. # [15:28] <Philip`> (It'd be worse if they thought they knew what it meant, so they didn't check the definition, but actually had the wrong idea)
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  407. # [15:29] <woef> "Let's name it something nobody will be certain to understand and force them to look for the proper definition"
  408. # [15:29] <Philip`> Call it "concept #382"
  409. # [15:29] <woef> That needs some usability testing :p
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  411. # [15:29] <woef> Philip`: hehe
  412. # [15:32] <Philip`> Then you just define "Concept #382: A concept #53 that is the target concept #53 or a concept #197 of it", and "Concept #197: A concept #53 that is a concept #382 of the target concept #53 but is not the target concept #53 itself", etc
  413. # [15:33] <woef> And throw in some false links to make sure they're paying attention and not just clicking along.
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  420. # [15:49] <annevk> I guess I should land Range before I make too many changes so people can follow on what is being changed
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  424. # [15:58] <annevk> went from 37 to 44 pages
  425. # [15:59] <annevk> Should AryehGregor become co-editor of DOM Core now? I guess that would be a bit too unwieldy
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  427. # [15:59] <zcorpan> annevk: shouldn't it be s/and/or/ in https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/e126979296ce ?
  428. # [16:05] <annevk> why?
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  430. # [16:08] <hsivonen> hmm. so IGs "endorse" bugs
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  433. # [16:14] <zcorpan> annevk: because it now says that objects that implements all of those interfaces are nodes
  434. # [16:14] <zcorpan> annevk: whereas if an object implements only one of them is not a node
  435. # [16:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: which bug?
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  438. # [16:19] <annevk> thanks
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  441. # [16:28] <Ms2ger> annevk, if you feel like updating Selection for your changes... ;)
  442. # [16:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Sep/0004.html
  443. # [16:29] <AryehGregor> annevk, go ahead and merge Range in, sounds good to me.
  444. # [16:30] <annevk> Ms2ger, I was about to say, and then I got that email, damnit
  445. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> Don't take the Selection stuff, obviously.
  446. # [16:30] <annevk> right
  447. # [16:30] <annevk> I haven't
  448. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> I'll take that at some point soonish.
  449. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see, you took it already.
  450. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> Good.
  451. # [16:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks
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  459. # [17:18] <zcorpan> heycam: hey. http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-attributes - why does it say "Otherwise, it exists on the interface’s interface prototype object or on every object that implements the interface." ? why leave a choice between having it on the prototype and having it on the object?
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  469. # [17:46] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  471. # [17:50] <annevk> hey hey dglazkov
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  495. # [18:36] <espadrine> good evening, dglazkov!
  496. # [18:38] <dglazkov> annevk: do you like to travel?
  497. # [18:38] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:401:e471:7c40:fe54:3e93)
  498. # [18:38] <annevk> I do
  499. # [18:39] <annevk> weird habbit :)
  500. # [18:39] <annevk> habit(sp?)
  501. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> hobbit
  502. # [18:40] <annevk> too tall for a hobbit
  503. # [18:40] * timeless makes that typo too
  504. # [18:40] <annevk> would love a home like Bilbo though
  505. # [18:40] <timeless> rabbit hobbit habit
  506. # [18:41] <timeless> annevk: your irc client doesn't have a spell checker?
  507. # [18:41] * timeless is using Nightly's spell checker (w/ freenode-webchat)
  508. # [18:41] <annevk> yeah (ctrl+t, enter word, hit enter, and see what Google says), but I don't always use it
  509. # [18:42] <timeless> eww
  510. # [18:42] <timeless> i do ctrl+t, e, down, enter, type word
  511. # [18:42] <timeless> e = https://encrypted.google.com/
  512. # [18:43] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  513. # [18:43] <timeless> but that's only when i don't have a text field available for Gecko's spellchecker
  514. # [18:43] <annevk> http://evolutionofweb.appspot.com/ is pretty cool
  515. # [18:44] <timeless> shiny
  516. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> nice
  517. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: who made that?
  518. # [18:44] <annevk> found it at http://chrome.blogspot.com/2011/09/happy-third-birthday-chrome.html
  519. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> ah great
  520. # [18:45] <timeless> it doesn't speak spanish :(
  521. # [18:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks like something Google contracted out
  522. # [18:46] <timeless> hrm
  523. # [18:46] <timeless> the screenshots of opera are odd
  524. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  525. # [18:46] <hsivonen> What's the deal with Netscape not having releases before 4
  526. # [18:46] <timeless> opera v1 screenshot is w3.x
  527. # [18:47] <timeless> but 2.1 is a screenshot from wXP or newer
  528. # [18:47] <timeless> and 3 is from w7
  529. # [18:47] <timeless> but 4 is from 9x
  530. # [18:47] <hsivonen> also, Firefox 3.6 is missing
  531. # [18:47] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-084-063-185-206.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  532. # [18:48] <hsivonen> as well as some significant Safari point releases
  533. # [18:48] <hsivonen> and significant Opera releases
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  535. # [18:48] <timeless> there's a "credits and sources" link in the left bar at the bottom
  536. # [18:48] <hsivonen> so, unfortunately, this doesn't work as a more complete "Modern browsers ship" visualization :-(
  537. # [18:49] <timeless> they're also missing ie1/2
  538. # [18:49] <zewt> these wavy lines are a bit too mysterious
  539. # [18:49] <timeless> but yeah, theyreally should have netscap 1, 2 and 3
  540. # [18:49] <hsivonen> and the mozilla suite
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  542. # [18:49] <timeless> they quasi cover that w/ netscape versions 6..8
  543. # [18:49] <timeless> but yeah
  544. # [18:50] <timeless> have people followed the diginotar coverage?
  545. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> annevk, did you file a bug on HTML for the "root" thing?
  546. # [18:50] <hsivonen> also, the colored band for Java gets wider over time
  547. # [18:50] <annevk> Ms2ger, no
  548. # [18:50] <hsivonen> timeless: somewhat followed
  549. # [18:51] <timeless> hsivonen: it's interesting that there was an addons cert
  550. # [18:51] <timeless> i wonder if it'd be reasonable for browser vendors to add a requirement for all cas that want to list of the form:
  551. # [18:51] <annevk> Ms2ger, HTML uses concept-tree-root in a different manner?
  552. # [18:51] <hsivonen> timeless: addons cert?
  553. # [18:51] <timeless> if you ever try to issue a cert for any of our properties, you must contact us
  554. # [18:51] <timeless> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9219663/Hackers_may_have_stolen_over_200_SSL_certificates
  555. # [18:52] <annevk> Ms2ger, I do think we should maybe add subtree and root subtree for HTML
  556. # [18:52] <timeless> > Mozilla confirmed that a certificate for its add-on site had been obtained by the DigiNotar attackers. "DigiNotar informed us that they issued fraudulent certs for addons.mozilla.org in July
  557. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> annevk, I copied the definition from HTML
  558. # [18:52] <hsivonen> timeless: It seems like a no-brainer that CAs should check if the hostnames they are minting certs for already have certs from someone else
  559. # [18:53] <timeless> hsivonen: sadly
  560. # [18:53] <timeless> as for profit companies
  561. # [18:53] <timeless> it's in your interest to steal your competitor's customers
  562. # [18:53] <zewt> how exactly can you tell if someone already has a certificate? heh
  563. # [18:53] <Philip`> They informed Mozilla in July, or they informed Mozilla now that they knew they issued fraudulent certs in July?
  564. # [18:53] <timeless> zewt: pretty easy
  565. # [18:54] <timeless> if i ask for a cert for super.example.com
  566. # [18:54] <timeless> then you try to visit https://super.example.com
  567. # [18:54] <timeless> if you can connect securely, then someone has a cert! :)
  568. # [18:54] <timeless> Philip`: my guess is informed nowish
  569. # [18:54] <zewt> i have certs that i don't use for https
  570. # [18:54] <timeless> and revoked in july
  571. # [18:54] <zewt> (ftp, etc)
  572. # [18:55] <Philip`> Shouldn't there be some requirement that if they revoke certs (presumably because they know they were invalidly issued), they at least inform the rightful owners of those domains (immediately, not a month later)?
  573. # [18:55] * Quits: rtuin (~rtuin@dsl-087-195-129-241.solcon.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  574. # [18:55] <timeless> Philip`: yeah well, um
  575. # [18:55] <zewt> can someone have an epiphany and come up with a new signing system that fixes the increasing breakage we have now, heh
  576. # [18:55] <timeless> i don't think i've ever seen that in requirements
  577. # [18:55] <timeless> mozilla has a crypto policy newsgroup
  578. # [18:56] <timeless> it can be proposed
  579. # [18:56] <timeless> and i'd imagine it'd get pretty decent support
  580. # [18:56] <Philip`> Seems like it's important to make it more expensive for a company to cover up its mistakes than for it to admit to them immediately
  581. # [18:56] <timeless> zewt: we don't have increasing breakage
  582. # [18:56] <timeless> so much as more people willing to spend the minimal effort to attack a system
  583. # [18:57] <timeless> Philip`: oh, that we're doing
  584. # [18:57] <zewt> sure we do; more and more entities with the ability to sign certificates; certificate exception dialogs becoming more and more pointlessly annoying :)
  585. # [18:57] <timeless> mozilla & co have killed diginotar
  586. # [18:57] <timeless> zewt: you played that card earlier
  587. # [18:57] <timeless> please don't replay a previously played card :)
  588. # [18:58] <zewt> perfectly valid when the card is correct :P
  589. # [18:58] <Philip`> Would the same killing have happened if they had admitted it immediately? (in which case they'd have no incentive to not try hiding it)
  590. # [18:58] <timeless> (there's a Hixie quote to be made here)
  591. # [18:58] <timeless> Philip`: past experience w/ CAs who have screwed up and fessed up hasn't resulted in death
  592. # [18:59] <timeless> which indicates, more or less, if you are honest and forthcoming you have historically gotten leeway
  593. # [18:59] <Philip`> I suppose that's good, then
  594. # [18:59] <Philip`> (although less good than if they didn't screw up)
  595. # [18:59] <timeless> past experience is of course not a commitment to future behavior
  596. # [18:59] <timeless> but, the goal is to provide carrot and stick
  597. # [19:00] <timeless> we've played carrot a few times, and stick once (now)
  598. # [19:00] <zewt> that's another breakage of the system: if a CA screws up and is dropped from browsers, there may be a *lot* of collateral damage
  599. # [19:00] <timeless> zewt: in this case, Vasco (recent parent of diginotar) indicated it has minimal business in this area
  600. # [19:00] <zewt> not frequently, but it's unpleasant that the possibility exists (of course, it's inherent to the system we have)
  601. # [19:00] <timeless> i haven't checked on their pricing model, but you should be able to calculate customer count
  602. # [19:01] <zewt> (not to suggest i know of any alternative model that doesn't have all of these problems, of course)
  603. # [19:01] <timeless> and yes, ideally those customers will ask for money back from their vendor (diginotar)
  604. # [19:01] <timeless> and take their business elsewhere (quickly, or lose customers while they dawdle)
  605. # [19:02] <timeless> anyway, that's the best economy i can offer today
  606. # [19:02] * hsivonen wonders if phone vendors are taking any action to zap diginotar from the stock browsers on their phones
  607. # [19:02] <timeless> hsivonen: generally no
  608. # [19:02] <timeless> speaking from experience at nokia
  609. # [19:02] <timeless> we asked about issuing updates
  610. # [19:02] <timeless> and were turned down
  611. # [19:02] <hsivonen> timeless: yeah, it looks like only iPhone and the Nexus series get any reasonable updates
  612. # [19:02] <timeless> (This was from the previous CA disaster, and we sent things up the flagpole as hard as we could)
  613. # [19:03] <timeless> i can't speak for my current employer
  614. # [19:03] <hsivonen> though I don't know if either iOS or Android on Nexus got updates following the Comodo case
  615. # [19:03] <timeless> hrm, although i could test a current build of our platform :)
  616. # [19:04] <timeless> (for the record, previous disaster = comodo)
  617. # [19:05] <hsivonen> I wish companies that ship mobile OSs acted more like real software vendors
  618. # [19:05] <timeless> oh, fwiw MS hasn't gotten around to sending out kill bits for wXP
  619. # [19:05] <timeless> (ms would kinda like people to stop using XP...)
  620. # [19:06] <zewt> i've never even seen a browser update in android of any kind except during a full OS update
  621. # [19:06] <timeless> the problem w/ classic hardware vendors is that they're hardware vendors
  622. # [19:06] <zewt> it's bizarre but google doesn't seem to care much about the android browser
  623. # [19:06] <timeless> they, like CAs don't have recurring revenues from past customers
  624. # [19:07] <timeless> and thus the cost of doing support/maintenance is something which isn't factored in and doesn't make sense to them
  625. # [19:07] <zewt> CAs do, since certs expire
  626. # [19:07] <timeless> zewt: yeah, technically CAs do
  627. # [19:07] <timeless> but only kinda
  628. # [19:07] <zewt> heh reminds me of some fraud godaddy has
  629. # [19:07] <zewt> they automatically set your cert to auto-renew (at the full rate, like $50/year), without asking or telling you
  630. # [19:07] <zewt> (presumably buried in some 100-page "agreement")
  631. # [19:08] <zewt> you have to go through a zillion menus to even find that it's on and get rid of it
  632. # [19:08] <hsivonen> timeless: I wonder how many iPod Touch users bought OS updates. Has it been proven that mobile hardware companies cannot sell software updates?
  633. # [19:08] <timeless> hsivonen: i didn't buy my update
  634. # [19:08] <hsivonen> timeless: Apple has managed to sell software updates for desktop/laptop hardware
  635. # [19:09] <timeless> the license agreement for my Finnish iPod as presented by iTunes was in Finnish
  636. # [19:09] <timeless> and thus, I couldn't accept it
  637. # [19:09] <timeless> so, i never bought the update
  638. # [19:09] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-ahryjgmhgywnqjrw) (Remote host closed the connection)
  639. # [19:09] <timeless> i'm now in .CA
  640. # [19:09] <hsivonen> timeless: you are weird
  641. # [19:09] <zewt> heh
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  643. # [19:09] <Philip`> When the TLS stuff was designed, was it expected that the response to fraudulent certificates would require multiple independent software vendors to ship updated versions, or was there meant to be a more elegant/robust way of handling it?
  644. # [19:09] <zewt> software loves showing me things in japanese, even though my system language is english (because they incorrectly use the system codepage)
  645. # [19:09] <timeless> and once I get around to plugging in one of my computers (probably my G5), I'll see about buying the update
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  647. # [19:09] <hsivonen> timeless: (so am I. I, too, today rejected a piece of software due to not having the time to wade through their legal stuff)
  648. # [19:09] <hsivonen> (software from cisco)
  649. # [19:10] <timeless> Philip`: do you mean TLS or SSL?
  650. # [19:10] <Philip`> timeless: I don't know
  651. # [19:10] <timeless> TLS is a rather recent thing (since it's SSL3.1/3.2)
  652. # [19:10] <Philip`> timeless: Whatever makes the question make most sense
  653. # [19:10] <timeless> the assumption in PKI / SSL
  654. # [19:10] <timeless> was that the vendors would be few
  655. # [19:10] <timeless> and would have decent and proper CRLs
  656. # [19:11] <timeless> there was a limited amount of handwaving involving how CRLs would be deployed to devices
  657. # [19:11] <timeless> but it mostly assumed devices would be connected enough to be able to retrieve them
  658. # [19:11] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-apsbxdyddeofwkws)
  659. # [19:11] <timeless> it also mostly assumed that you wouldn't have Rogue Countries
  660. # [19:11] <timeless> or rather
  661. # [19:11] <timeless> it accepted that you couldn't defeat a Rogue Country if you wanted to
  662. # [19:11] * Joins: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-9-217.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  663. # [19:11] <timeless> and thus it was out of scope
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  665. # [19:12] <timeless> Basically, if the US wanted to do something evil in VeriSign or RSA or whichever, it was assumed it could, but that was a risk one was willing to take
  666. # [19:12] <timeless> plus in the US at least, sunshine and leaks were probably assumed to catch such things
  667. # [19:13] <timeless> which actually is still applying to the current Rogue Countries
  668. # [19:13] <timeless> as zewt notes, the system we have is the best anyone can really think of to date
  669. # [19:13] <timeless> it isn't perfect
  670. # [19:14] <hsivonen> when VeriSign bought Network Solutions, I sent my bank a question asking them what they are going to do now that the entity that can tamper with DNS and the entity that guards against DNS tampering are the same
  671. # [19:14] <hsivonen> they actually forwarded it to someone technical
  672. # [19:15] <hsivonen> who called me and said the situation wasn't good but they'd just acknowledge the situation and their powerlessness about it
  673. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> timeless, there's an easy solution: pin particular CAs for sites, using STS. AFAIK, Chrome already does this for Google sites, so anyone who tried to use the forged cert against Chrome users would trigger unrecoverable failure.
  674. # [19:18] <timeless> hsivonen: you're looking forward to DNSSEC, eh? :)
  675. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Alternatively, get certs-via-DNSSEC working properly and supported in all browsers, then only allow that.
  676. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> For sites that opt in.
  677. # [19:19] <timeless> AryehGregor: you didn't read https://twitter.com/#!/moxie__/statuses/108567203829387264 ?
  678. # [19:19] <hsivonen> timeless: actually I am considering that the current system already fails if the curator of the root goes rogue
  679. # [19:19] <zewt> of course, it seems more likely that dnssec will be implemented, and both dnssec and tls certs will be accepted for most sites, giving two independent trees which are both points of failure...
  680. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> timeless, you can remove registrars with DNSSEC. Why not? Just have the registrar one step up revoke the cert, or not renew it.
  681. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> zewt, you could have a DNSSEC record that says "only use DNSSEC certs to access this site".
  682. # [19:20] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: did you read the whole tweet thread with Moxie and Dan Kaminsky?
  683. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> Or, just use STS and bake a list of sites and approved CAs for each site into the browsers.
  684. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, no.
  685. # [19:21] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: looks like we are going to have to replay it here
  686. # [19:21] <timeless> heh
  687. # [19:21] <zewt> but is there a TLS equivalent to say "never use dnssec"?
  688. # [19:21] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: https://twitter.com/#!/moxie__/status/108331615004000256
  689. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> zewt, you can use STS and have all browsers ship with hardcoded lists of all major sites (i.e., all likely attack targets).
  690. # [19:22] <timeless> hsivonen: appreciated, since i'm not a fan of twitter
  691. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, nothing is realistically going to protect us against ICANN or the IANA going bad, unless we abandon centralized DNS.
  692. # [19:22] <zewt> special casing to make the rest of the world second-class citizens? that's horrible
  693. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, basically they're not likely to do bad stuff unless the US forces them to, and if the US wants to learn about Google sites it has easier ways to do that.
  694. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> Like subpoenas.
  695. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> I mean, it's a possibility, but you can't defend against everything.
  696. # [19:24] * Joins: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70)
  697. # [19:24] * Quits: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70) (Client Quit)
  698. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> Stopping Iran from intercepting Google-bound traffic is feasible, stopping the US or VeriSign from doing it is not so feasible.
  699. # [19:24] <hsivonen> zewt: umm. the rest of the world is already second-class even on the legislative level
  700. # [19:25] <AryehGregor> Heck, the US government could nationalize Google if it really felt like it. Eminent domain, right?
  701. # [19:25] <timeless> technically yes
  702. # [19:25] <zewt> ...
  703. # [19:25] <Philip`> Are there ways to independently verify that browser vendors aren't doing bad stuff (like shipping binaries which whitelist some fake certificates), so that they're unlikely to be a point of failure?
  704. # [19:26] <zewt> my website should not be a second-class citizen compared to any other website
  705. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> If the scenario you're worried about is the US government doing evil things to US corporations, I'm pretty sure you lose either way.
  706. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> zewt, the list could be one that anyone can add themselves to.
  707. # [19:26] <timeless> Philip`: well, mostly
  708. # [19:26] <timeless> certainly with firefox you can build it yourself
  709. # [19:26] <timeless> and compare what you have against what is shipped
  710. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> E.g., it could just be a matter of Googlebot finding STS headers and building a list of all the ones with suitably long expiration dates.
  711. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> And publishing it.
  712. # [19:26] <zewt> ... but then you're just expanding the problem, since now you have to verify that whoever's modifying that record is authorized to do so
  713. # [19:26] <zewt> back to square one
  714. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> That's the browser vendor, who you have to trust anyway.
  715. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> They could be installing a backdoor for all you know.
  716. # [19:27] <timeless> it's moderately painful since firefox has whole-program-optimization
  717. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> Entities you realistically have to trust to some degree here: the US government, your browser vendor, your OS vendor, possibly your computer's manufacturer.
  718. # [19:28] <timeless> woohoo
  719. # [19:28] <AryehGregor> Entities you should not have to trust: every single two-bit company in the world that gets certified as a CA by someone.
  720. # [19:28] <timeless> after 1 email and ~1minute, i can now see bug reports i file myself!
  721. # [19:28] * timeless likes this company
  722. # [19:28] <timeless> at nokia, it'd probably have taken a month :)
  723. # [19:28] <timeless> or 3
  724. # [19:28] <timeless> or 9
  725. # [19:28] <timeless> (possibly just getting a reply saying "do you still need this?")
  726. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> And why?
  727. # [19:29] <AryehGregor> Why what?
  728. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> Why one would want to see such bug reports
  729. # [19:31] <zewt> (i don't understand the question--of course you want to be able to see your own bug reports)
  730. # [19:32] <hsivonen> zewt: Opera seems to disagree :-)
  731. # [19:32] <zewt> causing me to not (often) submit opera bug reports :)
  732. # [19:32] <zewt> (but we've been over that :)
  733. # [19:32] <timeless> Ms2ger: why would one want to see one's own bug reports?
  734. # [19:32] * timeless shrugs
  735. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> If I have long-running scripts, how can I stop the long-running script alerts? Is there some simple way I can spin the event loop in the middle or similar?
  736. # [19:32] <timeless> zewt: i switched to sending opera bug reports by email to opera employees
  737. # [19:33] <timeless> they reply eventually with updates :)
  738. # [19:33] * AryehGregor sends them by IRC in this channel
  739. # [19:33] <timeless> (this also more or less works for google bug reports)
  740. # [19:33] <Ms2ger> setTimeout(..,0)?
  741. # [19:33] <zewt> AryehGregor: run a synchronous xhr to a php script that pauses? :P
  742. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> zewt, :(
  743. # [19:33] <Ms2ger> zewt--
  744. # [19:33] <Philip`> Maybe you could use alert() to spin the event loop
  745. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, will that slow stuff down if I do it a lot?
  746. # [19:33] <zewt> alert("Please click OK")
  747. # [19:33] <timeless> AryehGregor: on Gecko you can use a magic thing
  748. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> Like by interpreting 0 as 15 or something?
  749. # [19:34] <timeless> generators
  750. # [19:34] <timeless> if you can manage to get them to work
  751. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> 4, and only if nested, AIUI
  752. # [19:34] * AryehGregor observes that if the tab is in the background, Chrome doesn't whine about long-running scripts, so doesn't see that it's worth the effort
  753. # [19:34] <zewt> well, the theory is if you have long-running scripts they should be in workers
  754. # [19:34] <zewt> of course, that's often hard in practice
  755. # [19:35] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96)
  756. # [19:36] <timeless> anyone here have /. mod points?
  757. # [19:36] * timeless needs something down-modded
  758. # [19:38] * Philip` appears to have 13
  759. # [19:38] * Joins: linclark (~clark@089-101-090180.ntlworld.ie)
  760. # [19:38] <timeless> http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2407244&cid=37271796
  761. # [19:40] <Philip`> Why do you object to that?
  762. # [19:40] <timeless> one sec
  763. # [19:40] * Quits: linclark (~clark@089-101-090180.ntlworld.ie) (Client Quit)
  764. # [19:41] <zewt> "Educate people" heh
  765. # [19:41] <timeless> eh? this would only fix something if the certificate client hard fails when it can't get CRL or OCSP working and only if mapping diginotar.nl happened to magically map www.diginotar.nl (which is where some of the CRLs live), plus service.diginotar.nl validation.diginotar.nl crl.pkioverheid.nl (which are home to OCSP/CRLs)
  766. # [19:41] <zewt> any security mechanism that requires educating users fails
  767. # [19:41] <timeless> Philip`: ^ is my response, but basically that hosts line doesn't do anything
  768. # [19:43] <hsivonen> 386 time clearly
  769. # [19:43] <timeless> ?
  770. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> xkcd.com/386
  771. # [19:45] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  772. # [19:45] <timeless> oh yes
  773. # [19:45] <timeless> that's one of only 3 my browser knows
  774. # [19:46] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-apsbxdyddeofwkws) (Quit: jamesr_)
  775. # [19:47] * Quits: rabbi1 (~manjunath@49.200.69.44) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  776. # [19:49] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-mblcxohqmlauiqzb)
  777. # [19:49] <hsivonen> timeless: I'm quickly losing my DNSSEC enthusiasm as I read more about it
  778. # [19:50] <hsivonen> (my SIP enthusiasm also went down when I started reading about SIP)
  779. # [19:51] * AryehGregor is still insufficiently disillusioned, perhaps
  780. # [19:51] * AryehGregor is still enthusiastic about DNSSEC :)
  781. # [19:52] * Joins: astearns (~anonymous@192.150.22.5)
  782. # [19:53] * AryehGregor sighs very loudly about CSSOM incompatibilities
  783. # [19:53] * Ms2ger makes AryehGregor a co-editor
  784. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> Is anyone even trying to follow this? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#serializing-css-values
  785. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> It seems way too vague to follow anyway. "Where CSS component values of the value can be omitted without changing the meaning of the value (e.g. initial values in shorthand properties), omit them. If this would remove all the values, then include the first allowed value."
  786. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> This needs to be defined inline with each property, methinks.
  787. # [19:54] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  788. # [19:54] * AryehGregor works around it, grumble grumble
  789. # [19:56] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: DNSSEC does seem attractive as a defense against small-time wifi hijacking, though
  790. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> It has a lot of uses.
  791. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> That's one, yeah.
  792. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> I'm also excited about being able to have TLS without extra CAs.
  793. # [19:58] <zewt> also if it allows delegating subdomains
  794. # [19:58] <zewt> the inability to do that with tls is ridiculous
  795. # [19:59] <hsivonen> btw, now that Moxie got mentioned: what's the business model of Whisper Communications? how do they make money?
  796. # [20:00] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  797. # [20:02] * Quits: timeless (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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  800. # [20:06] <smaug____> is Hixie the only one who has access to the server which has acid3 test?
  801. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> smaug____, I assume so.
  802. # [20:07] <hsivonen> smaug____: I believe there are others who can access the *server* but probably not the relevant directory
  803. # [20:07] <smaug____> that is unfortunate
  804. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> Why?
  805. # [20:08] <smaug____> is something happens to Hixie
  806. # [20:08] * AryehGregor discovers that he massively messed up his clipboard somehow by trying to copy and paste something huge into a terminal on a remote server
  807. # [20:08] <smaug____> but anyway, I wait Hixie to change the test
  808. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> If something happens to Hixie and his Dreamhost account goes down, yeah, that will be fun. :)
  809. # [20:08] <hsivonen> smaug____: good luck. :-/
  810. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> Tons of stuff is on that. Like whatwg.org.
  811. # [20:08] <smaug____> hsivonen: I think this change is agreed
  812. # [20:08] <hsivonen> smaug____: nice
  813. # [20:09] <smaug____> doctype.ownerDocument test should be removed
  814. # [20:09] * Joins: timeless (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless)
  815. # [20:11] <timeless> hsivonen: sorry to hear that re SIP
  816. # [20:11] <timeless> yeah, i'm not sure where i stand on SIP
  817. # [20:11] <timeless> i like it in theory, and some of my devices do a good job
  818. # [20:11] <timeless> but sadly the uptake of classic SIP just isn't there
  819. # [20:11] <timeless> for a while, Skype was the best hope
  820. # [20:12] <timeless> there actually was some progress on that front, someone is selling Skype ATAs - http://voip.about.com/b/2011/09/01/skype-gets-fully-residential.htm
  821. # [20:13] * Joins: timeless_ (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless)
  822. # [20:13] * Quits: timeless (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless) (Disconnected by services)
  823. # [20:13] * timeless_ is now known as timeless
  824. # [20:14] <timeless> so...
  825. # [20:14] * Joins: cygri (~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  826. # [20:14] <timeless> i'm not really sure how dnssec is much different from having decent Sub CAs offered by each ISP
  827. # [20:14] <timeless> or rather each DNS registrar
  828. # [20:15] <timeless> not actually a Root CA, just a sub CA
  829. # [20:15] <timeless> hsivonen: does whisper charge for speaking engagements? :)
  830. # [20:20] * Joins: brucel (~brucel@212.17.145.74)
  831. # [20:20] <zewt> guhh
  832. # [20:20] <zewt> gmail just logged me out *while i was writing an email*
  833. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Is a draft saved, at least?
  834. # [20:20] <zewt> yeah
  835. # [20:20] <zewt> it's not even "we logged you out because", it's just surprise! you're at the login page
  836. # [20:22] * Joins: timeless_ (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless)
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  838. # [20:22] * timeless_ is now known as timeless
  839. # [20:22] <timeless> zewt: at least your message was saved
  840. # [20:22] <timeless> i've had other webmail things which helpfully eat my message
  841. # [20:23] <timeless> and yeah, i've hit that logged out case w/ gmail
  842. # [20:29] <timeless> hsivonen: hrm
  843. # [20:29] <timeless> one of my devices doesn't trust www.diginotar.com
  844. # [20:29] <timeless> or because of an update
  845. # [20:29] <timeless> of course, that could be because it never trusted it
  846. # [20:31] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-3999e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  847. # [20:32] <timeless> err www.diginotar.nl
  848. # [20:33] <timeless> iirc some phone vendors are slow to add CAs
  849. # [20:33] <timeless> which in some cases is a good thing :)
  850. # [20:33] * Quits: cygri (~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: cygri)
  851. # [20:38] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  852. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Nice, I froze the Chrome UI for once.
  853. # [20:43] <timeless> congrats
  854. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> By accidentally trying to paste a super-giant URL into the URL bar.
  855. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> (several hundred KB at least)
  856. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> (not actually a URL, just some random text)
  857. # [20:44] <timeless> so...
  858. # [20:44] <timeless> clipboard is actually somewhat special anyway
  859. # [20:44] * AryehGregor has to force-quit
  860. # [20:44] <timeless> iirc there historically hasn't been a good async api for it or something
  861. # [20:44] <timeless> (at least on windows)
  862. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> First time that's happened to me in Chrome for a long time.
  863. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> I'm on Linux.
  864. # [20:44] <timeless> which meant one could get very stuck
  865. # [20:44] <timeless> oh, the story on x11 is probably worse
  866. # [20:44] <timeless> i don't think there are any good x11 apis :)
  867. # [20:45] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-dcuqngkclqoslrlt)
  868. # [20:46] <zewt> AryehGregor: heh, "view image" on a canvas in firefox does that
  869. # [20:46] <zewt> opens it as a gigantic data:
  870. # [20:48] * timeless remembers a time when the urlbar would stop painting text when it got too much content
  871. # [20:48] <zewt> (doesn't crash, just chugs)
  872. # [20:48] * timeless also remembers a time when too many characters in the urlbar would kill x servers
  873. # [20:48] <timeless> (there's at least one bugzilla bug on that in case people don't believe me)
  874. # [20:49] * Joins: Kingdutch (~Kingdutch@188.200.149.217)
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  880. # [21:14] * dglazkov is now known as dglazkov|away
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  882. # [21:16] * jer|afk is now known as jernoble
  883. # [21:17] <zewt> am I the only one that finds the firefox "save password" thing almost always disappears before I can do anything with it now?
  884. # [21:17] <zewt> "save password? psyche!"
  885. # [21:17] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.242.118)
  886. # [21:22] * Joins: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@rrcs-24-206-36-125.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  887. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> . . . seriously? WebKit computes "font-style: oblique" to "font-style: italic"?
  888. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%0A%3Cspan%20style%3Dfont-style%3Aoblique%3E%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%3Cscript%3Ew(getComputedStyle(document.querySelector(%22span%22)).fontStyle)%3C%2Fscript%3E
  889. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> . . .
  890. # [21:28] <Ms2ger> Unsurprising
  891. # [21:28] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:401:e471:7c40:fe54:3e93) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  892. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Really?
  893. # [21:29] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  894. # [21:29] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:401:e471:7c40:fe54:3e93)
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  899. # [21:38] * AryehGregor stabs browser CSSOM implementations. STAB STAB STAB STAB.
  900. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> Guess what node.style.length is for <span style="text-decoration: line-through">?
  901. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> . . . 4.
  902. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> -moz-text-blink, -moz-text-decoration-color, -moz-text-decoration-line, -moz-text-decoration-style.
  903. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> This is a regression, too, I'm pretty sure.
  904. # [21:39] * AryehGregor works around it, grumble grumble
  905. # [21:42] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  906. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Could someone check what this outputs in Firefox 4 and/or 5 and/or 6 and/or 7 for me? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%0A%3Cspan%20style%3Dtext-decoration%3Aline-through%3E%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%3Cscript%3Ew(document.querySelector(%22span%22).style.length)%3C%2Fscript%3E
  907. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> In 8 it's 4.
  908. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> It should be 1.
  909. # [21:42] * Joins: cygri (~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  910. # [21:43] <Philip`> In 6.0 it's 4
  911. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Hmm, so not a recent regression.
  912. # [21:43] <Philip`> 6.0 is pretty recent
  913. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Conceivably it's been since 4 or 5, yeah.
  914. # [21:44] <annevk> AryehGregor, want to take over CSSOM?
  915. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> annevk, no. Have no time.
  916. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> More than enough editing stuff to do for now.
  917. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Maybe someday.
  918. # [21:44] <annevk> AryehGregor, the serializing stuff is going to be taken over by the individual modules btw
  919. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it definitely should be.
  920. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> There needs to be a central place where it defines some useful primitives, but for nontrivial properties the details need to be specced per-property.
  921. # [21:45] <annevk> if you have details for the primitives and the grammar you should be okay
  922. # [21:46] <annevk> which is what CSSOM has now, it's just not very detailed (and the way CSS is written makes it hard to hook into things)
  923. # [21:47] * Joins: linclark (~clark@089-101-090180.ntlworld.ie)
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  926. # [21:51] <zewt> when at first you don't succeed, mail listserv commands to the list again
  927. # [21:51] <zewt> (don't most lists try to detect that and stop it?)
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  932. # [22:00] <annevk> karlcow, don't get your comment on twitter
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  934. # [22:13] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
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  938. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> jgraham, did you ever figure out why testharness.js was producing no output for my reflection tests anymore?
  939. # [22:27] * AryehGregor is observing something similar in another file too, it seems
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  941. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> Oh, never mind for the other thing.
  942. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> I wasn't running the tests before the load event.
  943. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> Reflection tests are still a question, though. :)
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  947. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> . . . How is a JS file's encoding determined?
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  951. # [22:53] <annevk> AryehGregor, based on the referring file, BOM, HTTP
  952. # [22:53] <annevk> and maybe a charset attribute on <script>
  953. # [22:53] <annevk> (not in that order)
  954. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> In what order of precedence?
  955. # [22:55] <annevk> HTTP, charset="", BOM, referring file
  956. # [22:55] <annevk> defined in HTML
  957. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> k, thx.
  958. # [22:57] <zewt> bom in .js? D :
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  962. # [23:05] <annevk> WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR is actually useful for Range, who'd have thought
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  964. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> Is it?
  965. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> When is it thrown?
  966. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> compareBoundaryPoints.
  967. # [23:06] <annevk> comparePoint throws it per spec
  968. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> Makes sense there, I guess.
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  970. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> Would make more sense to return a special value, but okay.
  971. # [23:07] <annevk> yeah dunno, I haven't actually tested any of this
  972. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> You noticed I have like a zillion Range tests?
  973. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> You should steal those.
  974. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> (note: they might be slightly hard to understand in some cases)
  975. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> (note: that also might be an understatement)
  976. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-range/src/tip/test/
  977. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> Nothing tests compareBoundaryPoints yet, though, it looks like.
  978. # [23:09] <annevk> yeah cool
  979. # [23:09] <annevk> guess we should move those to the DOMCore repo at some point
  980. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> It would make sense.
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  982. # [23:12] <nlogax> might as well ask here too. :) can i get rid of the default drag&drop cursor? (a green (+) thingie on os x, some equally ugly thing on windows)
  983. # [23:12] <nlogax> other than setting dropEffect
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  1005. # Session Close: Fri Sep 02 00:00:00 2011

The end :)