/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 08 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: serializing it perfectly? i.e., serializing such that parse(serialize(foo)) == foo?
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  8. # [00:09] <zewt> Hixie: sorry that that <script> thread rambled off so long, heh
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  15. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, yes, that's what I'm looking for, but it's okay if it doesn't work for all DOMs. In particular, I already consider it a serious bug if my editing algorithms produce any DOM that doesn't round-trip through text/html serialization, modulo normalization.
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  22. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> . . . I've looked for about a minute and can't find any way to delete a document in Google Docs.
  23. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Oh, there it is.
  24. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Tiny drop-down "Actions" under the opaque title "Move to bin".
  25. # [00:39] <zewt> "bin"?
  26. # [00:39] <zewt> a bin is where you store things, not discard them. heh
  27. # [00:40] <Hixie> not in british english, at least
  28. # [00:40] <Hixie> the bin in the trash
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  41. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> "Garbage bin" is a common phrase.
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  43. # [00:41] <zewt> does google not have any UI QC to make sure they're not using confusing dialected language? heh
  44. # [00:41] <zewt> yeah, but that's a much more specific phrase
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  52. # [00:47] <Hixie> anyone interested in writing a book about html5? i've someone here asking for names.
  53. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yours must be set to British English. Mine definitely says "Move to Trash"
  54. # [00:52] <zewt> (why did "Delete" go out of style)
  55. # [00:52] <benschwarz> Because software companies like apple love to over use metaphours
  56. # [00:52] <zewt> works for gmail, which i suspect has more UI design time put into it than gdocs
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  58. # [00:53] <benschwarz> gmail are clever enough to call it a 'bin' or 'trash' based on where you are…
  59. # [00:53] <zewt> but the delete button in gmail is simply "delete"
  60. # [00:54] <zewt> that also just seems more likely to cause confusion--better off just saying "Deleted items" and be consistent
  61. # [00:54] <benschwarz> maybe I actually mean apple then—it does it with my gmail account on my iphone :)
  62. # [00:59] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, odd.
  63. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> So it is.
  64. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> I wonder how that happened.
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  66. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> You'd think Google would know my native language by this point.
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  69. # [01:01] <Philip`> zewt: I'd assume the argument would be that people will think "delete" is permanent, and will accidentally delete stuff and be unhappy, whereas the "trash" metaphor makes them realise there's somewhere they can look to pull it back out
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  71. # [01:02] * Philip` has no idea how much metaphors actually matter in reality
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  73. # [01:05] <zewt> philip: but gmail does call "move to trash" "delete", so the gmail UI team apparently thinks it's okay, at least
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  75. # [01:06] <Philip`> Maybe they just ran out of space on their buttons
  76. # [01:07] <zewt> probably most users never touch deleted items anyway and just don't care
  77. # [01:07] <zewt> and people advanced enough to care are advanced enough to not get confused over that
  78. # [01:07] <zewt> wishful thinking, maybe
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  196. # [07:20] <jacobolus> if I want to make a cursor that changes as I pan around the canvas, the best way to do that is by making my own collision detection on mousemove and then adding changing the "cursor" css attribute by adding/removing classes?
  197. # [07:21] * bentruywoman is now known as bentruyman
  198. # [07:24] <roc> probably
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  230. # [09:09] <sicking> annevk2: ping
  231. # [09:09] <annevk2> yeah?
  232. # [09:10] <sicking> annevk2: so apparenly the DOM-Core spec isn't compatible with ACID3 :(
  233. # [09:10] <annevk2> well yeah, we knew that
  234. # [09:10] <sicking> annevk2: specifically some of the doctype changes makes you loose a point if you implement them
  235. # [09:10] <annevk2> yes we said that before we made the changes
  236. # [09:11] <sicking> annevk2: have you talked to the people at opera that would implement this how they plan to deal with it
  237. # [09:11] <sicking> annevk2: i poked Hixie and Håkon, but got no answer
  238. # [09:12] <annevk2> I think Ms2ger made the relevant changes to DOCTYPE
  239. # [09:12] <sicking> in the past Hixie hasn't wanted to change ACID3 without an ok from Håkon (don't know the history there)
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  241. # [09:13] <annevk2> I have once tried to change Acid3 and I believe Håkon wants some kind of explicit endorsement from all vendors and only wants to do it once or so
  242. # [09:13] <sicking> annevk2: ok, i'll mail the list i guess
  243. # [09:13] <annevk2> It's pretty crazy
  244. # [09:13] <annevk2> I think it is easier to just ignore Acid3
  245. # [09:13] <sicking> annevk2: hah, yeah, good luck
  246. # [09:13] <sicking> annevk2: especially for the implementations that have 100 points right now
  247. # [09:14] <annevk2> I was planning on blogging on it at some point
  248. # [09:14] <annevk2> Not sure if that helps, but sometimes it does
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  251. # [09:18] <sicking> annevk2: i suspect you won't see Opera or webkit implementing DOM4 as things stand. So blogging can only help
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  253. # [09:37] <zcorpan> clearly the test needs to change if we all agree to change the spec and want to implement the spec
  254. # [09:38] <zcorpan> and if we agree on what the spec should say, it shouldn't be hard to get endorsement from the relevant vendors, right?
  255. # [09:41] <jgraham> Yeah, this seems like it ought to be a non-problem
  256. # [09:42] <jgraham> I mean it is purely political
  257. # [09:42] <jgraham> Which, I suppose, isn't quite the same thing
  258. # [09:44] <jgraham> I presume the approach would be to make either behaviour allowed. In which case it shouldn't matter how many changes we make to ACID3 because no one will ever lose points
  259. # [09:44] <annevk2> howcome wanted full agreement, only once-per-decade, and the original test had to be available
  260. # [09:45] <annevk2> I don't think that is a good idea personally
  261. # [09:45] <jgraham> What is a good idea?
  262. # [09:45] <annevk2> once-per-decade
  263. # [09:45] <jgraham> Right, that's silly
  264. # [09:45] <jgraham> Håkon might be overestimating how useful ACID3 is or how much people care
  265. # [09:46] <annevk2> I think we should simply comment the tests out, fwiw
  266. # [09:46] <jgraham> That would fit "either behaviour is allowed"
  267. # [09:47] <jgraham> (the thing about the original test being avaliable has already failed, so that seems like a bogus requirement too)
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  272. # [09:59] <Ms2ger> Acid3, the curse that keeps on giving?
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  281. # [10:15] <annevk> Sort of like Acid2
  282. # [10:15] <annevk> Fortunately we got comment handling changed in the end
  283. # [10:17] <annevk> And here I thought I would never RT jreschke
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  286. # [10:20] <hsivonen> why is this now blocking on howcome? IIRC, SVG font thing blocked on someone else at Opera instead
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  288. # [10:21] <annevk> that falls under there being no vendor consensus
  289. # [10:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: Ask Hixie. If it's a conspiracy, no one told me :)
  290. # [10:22] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.181.213)
  291. # [10:23] <hsivonen> every main stream tech media browser comparison that I've read in the past 18 months has used Acid3 cluelessly
  292. # [10:23] <hsivonen> also html5test.com cluelessly
  293. # [10:24] <hsivonen> but then I haven't read that many comparisons. the correct number is probably just 2
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  295. # [10:24] * Ms2ger is reminded of http://xkcd.com/528/
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  298. # [10:26] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: you mean acid4 should be a picture of hitler?
  299. # [10:27] * Quits: brucel (~brucel@guest.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  300. # [10:27] <Ms2ger> Yep
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  306. # [10:38] <hsivonen> I recently read a browser comparison that said Safari uses the WebKit 2 engine but Chrome uses the WebKit engine
  307. # [10:38] <hsivonen> boom. in your face Chrome. Safari is twice as advanced
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  310. # [10:41] <woef> Is there a place where I can read up on the history of the article element. As in, "why was it introduced in the first place"?
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  313. # [10:43] <abarth> hsivonen: i tried to add WebKit3, but my patch was rejected
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  316. # [10:51] <jgraham> Dear lazy irc: My virtualbox won't do the fit resolutionto window / mouse integration thing, even though I seemed to have installed the guest additions. Ideas?
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  319. # [11:07] <annevk> oh fuck
  320. # [11:07] <annevk> Acid3 prevents Range simplification too
  321. # [11:07] <divya> jgraham: w.r.t resolution you can change it in the VM itself
  322. # [11:08] <annevk> in particular exception handling
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  331. # [11:35] <annevk> I wrote http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/09/acid3-problem
  332. # [11:35] <annevk> Somewhat hurriedly, improvements welcome
  333. # [11:36] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  334. # [11:36] <annevk> Will try to write a WHATWG Weekly as well somewhere today
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  339. # [11:50] <zcorpan> annevk: at least i argued with Hixie when he wrote the test to make a number of things optional to make room for spec changes, like Attr support
  340. # [11:51] <zcorpan> but clearly we need more room now
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  343. # [11:58] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: maybe you can use SDF or the parser test format for serializing DOM
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  350. # [12:40] <smaug____> anyone with IE9?
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  352. #
  353. # Session Start: Thu Sep 08 13:13:14 2011
  354. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  355. # [13:13] * Now talking in #whatwg
  356. # [13:13] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  357. # [13:13] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  358. # [13:14] <krijnh> People should really stop ironing and making tea and coffee at the same time
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  360. # [13:17] <divya> is that a rhetorical statement krijn
  361. # [13:17] <divya> oops
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  363. # [13:18] <krijn> It makes fuses go booboo
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  365. # [13:18] <krijn> Totes booboo even
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  399. # [14:58] <annevk> The Security WG of the W3C is named WAS WG
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  454. # [15:25] <wilhelm> TabAtkins: ping
  455. # [15:27] <annevk> Created http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Acid3 for suggestions on subtests that need changing
  456. # [15:27] <annevk> Feedback and improvements welcome
  457. # [15:28] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: the createLink command doesn't seem to say to create a new "a" element if the selection has no links
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  461. # [15:31] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: also, if your selection *contains* a link or several links, i think we just change the href of all the links without messing with them further
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  463. # [15:32] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: so for [foo<a href=x>x</a>bar<a href=y>y</a>baz], when you do execCommand('createlink','','z'); you should get [foo<a href=z>x</a>bar<a href=z>y</a>baz]
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  481. # [16:06] <annevk> Ms2ger, parsing and serialization does not extend Document
  482. # [16:06] <annevk> Ms2ger, it should
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  490. # [16:22] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-parsing-apis
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  542. # [17:49] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  543. # [17:49] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  546. # [18:03] <annevk> hmm
  547. # [18:03] <annevk> it seems somewhat intentional that DOM Parsing does not support document.innerHTML
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  556. # [18:13] <annevk> I don't even have commit access to DOM Parsing
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  598. # [19:19] <Hixie> sicking: sorry, i was on vacation, still dealing with backlog of mail
  599. # [19:19] <Hixie> i expect i can convince howcome that it makes sense to release an update for acid3 that includes a bunch of changes to take into account intents
  600. # [19:20] <Hixie> i'd rather like to avoid making regular updates so it would be good to have a comprehensive list of what needs changing
  601. # [19:20] <sicking> Hixie: that would be awesome
  602. # [19:21] <sicking> Hixie: i'll see what i can do, but i won't have time to read all of acid3
  603. # [19:23] <Hixie> i think anne said he had a wiki page
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  605. # [19:31] <sicking> Hixie: cool
  606. # [19:31] <zewt> http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/gmail/thread?tid=10f874f83050af98&hl=en ugh
  607. # [19:37] <Philip`> Perhaps they could add a feature where the recipient of an email can vote +1/-1 on its text style
  608. # [19:37] <Philip`> If too many people vote -1, the sender's text style gets reverted to the default and they are forbidden from changing it back to exactly that style again
  609. # [19:37] <zewt> voting "it's the reader who decides what his email looks like, not the sender"
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  625. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> wilhelm: pong
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  635. # [21:01] <hsivonen> so first it was "boo. HTML5 is too large. remove stuff!" now it's "boo stuff is getting split out of HTML5 the wrong way"
  636. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> Don't look for consistency in Shelley's bugs.
  637. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> That way lies madness.
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  652. # [21:45] <zcorpan> hmm. i thought i unsubscribed from public-html-announce. why am i still getting emails?
  653. # [21:45] <zcorpan> MikeSmith?
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  656. # [21:54] <jgraham> TabAtkins: s/for consistency in/at/
  657. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> I'll accept that patch.
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  662. # [22:10] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14086 - seems like we should add async parsing APIs
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  666. # [22:21] <zcorpan> we could add something like void parseAsync(DOMString str, DOMString contentType, Function successCallback, optional Function errorCallback);
  667. # [22:21] <zcorpan> to DOMParser
  668. # [22:21] <zcorpan> and maybe void serializeAsync(Node root, Function successCallback, optional Function errorCallback); to XMLSerializer if we want to have async serializing
  669. # [22:22] <zcorpan> or we should have completely new APIs for the async cases where you can choose whether you want to parse and serialize as xml or html
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  672. # [22:41] <Philip`> How about asynchronous JSON parsing?
  673. # [22:41] * Philip` wonders if more people would want that than XML/HTML
  674. # [22:43] <jgraham> You can do that with a worker ofc
  675. # [22:43] <jgraham> Although
  676. # [22:43] <jgraham> Since the result might get serialized as json when you postmessage it it isn't obviously a win
  677. # [22:44] <jgraham> Unless the browser optimises in a clever way
  678. # [22:44] <jgraham> (depends what the use case is, I suppose)
  679. # [22:46] <Philip`> Asynchronous doesn't have to mean threaded - when the browser's receiving the serialised message, it could spend 10ms deserialising into the main thread and then do some other work and then deserialise a bit more, and only report there was a message after it's finished slowly deserialising the content
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  681. # [22:46] <Philip`> (Receiving the serialised message from the worker, that is)
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  683. # [22:46] <jgraham> true
  684. # [22:47] <Philip`> so that shouldn't have to be a blocking operation
  685. # [22:47] <Philip`> and doesn't sound like it needs a particularly clever optimisation
  686. # [22:48] <jgraham> But if you go JSON -> datastructure -> JSON -> datastructure on something where parsing/serializing is slow enough to matter, doing three times the work doesn't seem that appealing
  687. # [22:50] * ap|away is now known as ap
  688. # [22:50] <zcorpan> yeah async json also seems reasonable
  689. # [22:50] <smaug____> Hixie: any chance you could remove assertEquals(doctype.ownerDocument, null, "doctype's ownerDocument was wrong after creation"); before modifying acid3 some more?
  690. # [22:50] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.89) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  691. # [22:51] <smaug____> (that doctype thing just happens to block some other work I'm doing)
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  695. # [22:59] <zcorpan> hmm, an async parser API (whether html, xml or json) could also be streaming
  696. # [23:00] <zcorpan> i guess serializer can also be streaming
  697. # [23:02] <Hixie> smaug____: yeah, gonna do that probably early next week
  698. # [23:05] <Hixie> is http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13355 the first escalation for a bug resolved by an "editor's assistant"?
  699. # [23:10] <smaug____> Hixie: ok, thanks!
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  711. # [23:43] * zcorpan sees Hixie has tried almost all games on G+
  712. # [23:43] <Hixie> i have?
  713. # [23:43] <zcorpan> Hixie: any recommendations?
  714. # [23:44] <Hixie> i recommend portal 2
  715. # [23:44] <Hixie> or if you have someone to play with, Worms (also available on Steam)
  716. # [23:44] <Hixie> Bad Company 2 is also pretty good though I haven't played for a while and I hear a sequel is gonna be out soon
  717. # [23:46] <zcorpan> they aren't on G+ :)
  718. # [23:46] <Hixie> i stand by my recommendations :-P
  719. # [23:47] <zcorpan> ok :)
  720. # [23:47] <wilhelm> Hixie: BF3 looks fantastic.
  721. # [23:48] <Hixie> so long as you can blow houses to pieces with explosives, i'm game
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  724. # [23:54] <wilhelm> Much more so than in the previous games.
  725. # [23:54] <Hixie> jgraham: even with making the spec smaller, i'm still getting 504s pretty regularly now
  726. # [23:54] <Hixie> jgraham: i'd ray about 50% of the time at least
  727. # [23:54] <Hixie> wilhelm: really!
  728. # [23:54] <Hixie> wilhelm: eeenteresting
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  731. # [23:59] <wilhelm> Hixie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQmAdukloJQ <- C4
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  733. # Session Close: Fri Sep 09 00:00:01 2011

The end :)