/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 09 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> wilhelm: that doesn't really show what happens to the building, but it does look cool
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  8. # [00:05] <Hixie> jgraham: uh, &#x00FF; used to turn into &yuml; but now turns into &amp;#x00FF;
  9. # [00:07] <Hixie> how does that even happen
  10. # [00:08] <zcorpan> lxml b0rkedness?
  11. # [00:08] <Hixie> why would it change?
  12. # [00:09] <zcorpan> dunno. tcp packet boundary happened to be in the middle maybe?
  13. # [00:09] <Hixie> that would be precious
  14. # [00:09] <timeless> heh
  15. # [00:10] <Hixie> wow i think you might be right
  16. # [00:10] <Hixie> that's fantastic
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  18. # [00:10] <Hixie> i added a comment just before it and it fixed it
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  22. # [00:11] <zcorpan> heh
  23. # [00:12] <zcorpan> hmm, past bedtime for me
  24. # [00:13] * zcorpan waves
  25. # [00:14] <Hixie> later
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  53. # [01:37] <AnselmBradford> hi all, I'm looking at the example for the "dirname" attribute in the specification 4.10.7.2.2
  54. # [01:37] <AnselmBradford> and the example has 'dirname="comment.dir"'
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  58. # [01:38] <AnselmBradford> doesn't that mean there should be an input field in the form with the id='comment.dir'?
  59. # [01:39] <AnselmBradford> as dirname is supposed to specify the form control that contains directionality information for a particular input
  60. # [01:39] <AnselmBradford> here's the example: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-input-element-attributes.html#the-dirname-attribute
  61. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> You misunderstand how it works. @dirname tells the form what name to use to submit the directionality of the input.
  62. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> The directionality of the input is inherent to the input itself; it's not given by another control.
  63. # [01:40] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  64. # [01:41] <AnselmBradford> TabAtkins: Thanks, yeah I'm confused by it... particularly this bit:
  65. # [01:41] <AnselmBradford> "A form control dirname attribute on a form control element enables the submission of the directionality of the element, and gives the name of the field that contains this value during form submission."
  66. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> "field" does not mean "form control". It means the key part of the form submission, like "example.com?key=value"
  67. # [01:43] <AnselmBradford> ahh, right okay
  68. # [01:44] <AnselmBradford> is this supported by any browsers... I can't seem to get the examples I've found to work?
  69. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Don't think anyone does it yet.
  70. # [01:45] <AnselmBradford> okay, thanks, that makes sense now :)
  71. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> excellent
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  114. # Session Close: Fri Sep 09 04:11:24 2011
  115. #
  116. # Session Start: Fri Sep 09 04:11:24 2011
  117. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  122. # [04:33] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  175. # [08:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: thanks (re mail to public-html)
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  186. # [08:39] <annevk> zcorpan, are you sure parsing is the problem?
  187. # [08:39] <annevk> zcorpan, and not say, the painting?
  188. # [08:39] <annevk> zcorpan, and layout
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  190. # [08:45] <annevk> Hixie, which differences were removed?
  191. # [08:45] <Hixie> some paragraph that was only in the w3c copy was removed after someone filed a bug on it
  192. # [08:46] <Hixie> (it was a pretty meaningless paragraph)
  193. # [08:46] <Hixie> (with lots of errors)
  194. # [08:51] * slightlyoff is now known as slightlyoff_afk
  195. # [08:52] <annevk> doesn't HTML suggest using <pre><code>?
  196. # [08:52] <annevk> re: replacement <xmp>
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  204. #
  205. # Session Start: Fri Sep 09 09:26:55 2011
  206. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  208. # [09:26] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  209. # [09:26] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  215. # [09:52] <zcorpan> Hixie: "To represent a block of computer code, the pre element can be used with a code element" http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/grouping-content.html#the-pre-element
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  249. # [11:09] <annevk> "Just make every object constructable, it'll work!"
  250. # [11:09] <annevk> tralalala
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  253. # [11:13] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks for fixing racyness with video
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  269. # [11:50] <annevk> zcorpan, btw, see the logs
  270. # [11:50] <annevk> I doubt parsing is that slow
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  272. # [11:58] <jgraham> annevk: If it is on XHR, how would painting or alyout make a difference?
  273. # [11:59] <jgraham> The original complaint was that getting responseXML was slow
  274. # [12:00] <jgraham> Which it could be if you XHR in tens of megabytes of document
  275. # [12:06] <annevk> I thought it was getting and inserting it
  276. # [12:07] <jgraham> Hmm, possibly I didn't read closely, I'm not sure. You would have thought that someone complaining would do basic profiling of where the slowness actually is
  277. # [12:07] <jgraham> But, yeah…
  278. # [12:08] <hsivonen> annevk: why is SVG fonts only on a "maybe" list for Acid3 update? after Mozilla and Microsoft refusing to implement and after seeing that Opera and WebKit aren't aiming for a complete impl
  279. # [12:08] <hsivonen> (and the typical arguments in favor of SVG fonts assume a complete impl)
  280. # [12:08] <annevk> I did not put it there
  281. # [12:08] <jgraham> Today's lesson: living standards need living testsuites
  282. # [12:11] <hsivonen> so about 15% of Acid3 is suspect
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  284. # [12:12] <annevk> If you go by the number of tests, but the actual problems are within those tests, so it's probably more like 5%
  285. # [12:13] <annevk> Well, SVG Animation and SVG Fonts are 5% together, so a little more
  286. # [12:16] <annevk> So the political party I support just launched a magazine fully in Flash. Uh what.
  287. # [12:17] <hsivonen> annevk: I guess you have to stop voting for them now.
  288. # [12:18] <smaug____> dropping SVG animation is new to me
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  290. # [12:20] <zcorpan> annevk: what was it about parsing?
  291. # [12:20] <zcorpan> oh, async api?
  292. # [12:20] <annevk> zcorpan, yes
  293. # [12:21] <zcorpan> i thought the use case didn't involve layout at all but just parse a big chunk of xml
  294. # [12:21] <zcorpan> the bug said that the parsing operation was blocking the main thread and that was a problem
  295. # [12:22] <zcorpan> but we need to study use cases before designing new apis...
  296. # [12:22] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  297. # [12:23] <zcorpan> maybe we should have a way to parse right into an element in an async way so that it gets rendered incrementally if the use case is to get it on the screen
  298. # [12:23] <annevk> EV fail / Apple fail: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9219669/Mac_OS_X_can_t_properly_revoke_dodgy_digital_certificates
  299. # [12:24] <annevk> By the way, is there any copy of HTML still alive that has that data provider idea still in it?
  300. # [12:24] <annevk> I think Philip` experimented a bit with it and then it got removed
  301. # [12:24] <annevk> So not <datagrid>, but the other one
  302. # [12:25] <zcorpan> the repetition template replacement?
  303. # [12:26] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@guest.opera.com)
  304. # [12:26] <annevk> yeah maybe
  305. # [12:28] <jgraham> The one that 3 people understood?
  306. # [12:30] <zcorpan> i think it's not kept alive anywhere
  307. # [12:31] <zcorpan> if you want it you need to find a rev that has it
  308. # [12:32] <annevk> damn it
  309. # [12:33] <annevk> data templates
  310. # [12:33] <annevk> http://html5.org/r/2319
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  319. # [13:12] <zcorpan> removing SMIL from SVG seems overly optimistic
  320. # [13:13] <zcorpan> maybe SMIL in SVG can be simplified but i doubt it can be removed altogether at this point
  321. # [13:16] <zcorpan> heh http://xkcd.com/949/
  322. # [13:16] <annevk> see publix-fx
  323. # [13:16] <annevk> also Microsoft does not support it
  324. # [13:18] <annevk> Yet another language from Google: http://gotocon.com/aarhus-2011/presentation/Opening%20Keynote:%20Dart,%20a%20new%20programming%20language%20for%20structured%20web%20programming
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  328. # [13:21] <annevk> More on Dart here: http://markmail.org/message/uro3jtoitlmq6x7t
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  330. # [13:26] <wilhelm> … Computational theologist.
  331. # [13:29] <jgraham> Is it only me that is reminded of ES4?
  332. # [13:29] <jgraham> I wonder if Google will succeed where Mozilla failed
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  335. # [13:33] <annevk> I also wonder how they intend this fork to work.
  336. # [13:33] <annevk> Switching the scripting language on a page might be tricky.
  337. # [13:35] <jgraham> Allowing javascript and another language to both operate on the same page seems… tricky
  338. # [13:35] <jgraham> Using a "first langauge wins" policy might be easier
  339. # [13:35] <jgraham> But it makes it even harder to deploy
  340. # [13:36] <Philip`> jgraham: I thought the problem with ES4 is that browser vendors couldn't agree on it, which Google seems to be avoiding by being willing to do everything itself
  341. # [13:36] <jgraham> I thought the problem was the Microsoft vetod it
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  343. # [13:37] <jgraham> I assume that Google won't implement it for IE
  344. # [13:37] <Philip`> (Then other vendors will be pressured into implementing it so that Gmail isn't much slower in their browser than in Chrome)
  345. # [13:37] <jgraham> Well that is the interesting thing
  346. # [13:37] <jgraham> Whether people will have to implement it because of Google properties
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  348. # [13:39] <benjoffe> has twitter made a public statement as to why they're preferring '#!' urls over using the html5 history api?
  349. # [13:40] <benjoffe> I mean they have full time front-end devs, this must be intentional
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  351. # [13:40] <miketaylr> they blogged once about some bug in safari's implementation
  352. # [13:40] <miketaylr> http://www.adequatelygood.com/2011/2/Thoughts-on-the-Hashbang
  353. # [13:41] <miketaylr> hmm maybe wrong link
  354. # [13:47] <zcorpan> annevk2: should getElementsByTagNameNS use [TreatNullAs=Empty] for the first argument?
  355. # [13:48] <annevk> namespaceURI returns null never the empty string
  356. # [13:48] <annevk> so we want to treat the empty string as null
  357. # [13:48] <annevk> not the other way around...
  358. # [13:49] <annevk> next time we design this API namespaceURI would return the empty string of course
  359. # [13:55] <zcorpan> i don't follow. my question is if we want teh following to be equivalent: ...NS(null, 'foo') and ...NS('', 'foo')
  360. # [13:55] <zcorpan> or ...NS(null, 'foo') and ...NS('null', 'foo')
  361. # [13:59] <annevk> the former I think with the empty string being treated as null
  362. # [13:59] <annevk> does seem like that requires changes
  363. # [14:01] <annevk> see http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#Namespaces-Considerations :(
  364. # [14:02] <annevk> "In programming languages where empty strings can be differentiated from null, empty strings, when given as a namespace URI, are converted to null."
  365. # [14:02] <annevk> So all NS-methods need to be changed to accepting "DOMString?" and the corresponding algorithms need to match
  366. # [14:03] <annevk> Do you agree?
  367. # [14:03] <annevk> e.g. this is a problem for createElement etc. too
  368. # [14:04] <annevk> hmm
  369. # [14:05] <annevk> i see elsewhere we use [TreatNullAs=Empty] and then in the algorithm change empty to null
  370. # [14:05] <zcorpan> yeah
  371. # [14:05] <annevk> TreatEmptyAs=Null would be cool
  372. # [14:06] <annevk> or DOMStringNS :p
  373. # [14:06] <zcorpan> whether we use DOMString? or [TreatNullAs=Empty] seems like an editorial issue
  374. # [14:06] <annevk> I think I will go with DOMString? then
  375. # [14:07] <annevk> so you don't need double-conversion if your implementation generates stuff based on the IDL
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  382. # [14:29] <annevk> http://www.mnot.net/blog/2011/08/24/distributed_hungarian_notation_doesnt_work
  383. # [14:29] <annevk> Instead of using Sec- to prevent XMLHttpRequest clients, update the list of headers to block by XMLHttpRequest and have aggressive browser update cycles...
  384. # [14:32] <Philip`> Doesn't need to be part of the browser upgrade cycle, it could just be a centrally-located list that they download every few days
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  386. # [14:34] <annevk> It seems rather complicated though
  387. # [14:35] <annevk> But maybe it's worth it, Sec- isn't everything either
  388. # [14:36] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  389. # [14:36] <jgraham> It feels a bit fragile
  390. # [14:37] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  392. # [14:40] <heycam> just dropping in to say I'm on vacation for the next 4 weeks, see you all later
  393. # [14:41] <jgraham> It's not nice to gloat :p
  394. # [14:41] * heycam smiles, waves
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  397. # [14:42] <annevk> zcorpan, changed the specification
  398. # [14:43] <annevk> Damn it, now I can't complain about exceptions for a month
  399. # [14:43] <annevk> Maybe I should go on vacation too :)
  400. # [14:43] <jgraham> You can *complain*
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  425. # [16:05] <donri> i'm sure this has been asked before so please excuse me :) why does html5 keep the form[@method] restriction and leave out other useful verbs?
  426. # [16:06] <annevk> because other verbs would need a same-origin restriction
  427. # [16:06] <donri> is it different from POST?
  428. # [16:06] <annevk> and because we could not figure out the details of how that would work
  429. # [16:07] <annevk> to deployed servers everything is different from POST/GET when it comes to requests carrying cookies
  430. # [16:07] <annevk> or to requests where you identify with IP address or some such
  431. # [16:09] <donri> not sure i understand. isn't it up to the application that probably also sent the form?
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  434. # [16:14] <annevk> donri, those are same-origin typically
  435. # [16:14] <annevk> with cross-origin all bets are off
  436. # [16:15] <annevk> and forms can request cross-origin by default, so changing what they can request is dangerous
  437. # [16:16] <donri> don't quite see the issue if it's a different method to have different behavior but ok, thanks ):
  438. # [16:16] <donri> :) *
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  456. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, I'd reply, but you vanished. :( Not sure what the context of your message was: is this review of the spec, or explanation of Opera's behavior, or whaT?
  457. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> what?
  458. # [17:10] <annevk> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/sep/07/michael-moore-hated-man-america is terrible, but "You ever see a Navy Seal get stabbed? The look on their face is the one we have when we discover we're out of shampoo." is pretty funny
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  464. # [17:28] <timeless> hrm, webidl people?
  465. # [17:29] <timeless> [Callback=FunctionOnly, NoInterfaceObject] interface MyCallback { void looped(); }
  466. # [17:30] <timeless> interface Silly { [Constructor] Silly([TreatNonCallableAsNull] MyCallback looped); }
  467. # [17:30] <timeless> afaict, that isn't allowed and probably isn't allowed for a couple of reasons
  468. # [17:30] <timeless> none of which seem good
  469. # [17:31] <timeless> grr, no heycam either?
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  472. # [17:32] <Philip`> timeless: "13:35 < heycam> just dropping in to say I'm on vacation for the next 4 weeks, see you all later"
  473. # [17:32] <timeless> Philip`: thanks
  474. # [17:32] <timeless> Philip`: do you happen to speak webidl at all? :)
  475. # [17:33] <timeless> or perhaps jwalden ?
  476. # [17:33] <Philip`> Only the really easy bits
  477. # [17:33] <jwalden> timeless: not fluently, I've only really interacted with it to the extent needed to describe how it affects JS bindings
  478. # [17:33] <timeless> that should be sufficient
  479. # [17:34] <jwalden> and even there it's been more hands-offish
  480. # [17:34] <timeless> can i get you to consider:
  481. # [17:34] <timeless> [Callback=FunctionOnly, NoInterfaceObject] interface MyCallback { void looped(); }
  482. # [17:34] <timeless> interface Silly { [Constructor] Silly([TreatNonCallableAsNull] MyCallback looped); }
  483. # [17:35] <jwalden> these verbs may exceed my vocabulary, but go on
  484. # [17:35] <timeless> so...
  485. # [17:35] <timeless> use case, i want to have a Silly interface which demands a MyCallback
  486. # [17:35] <timeless> it doesn't want a null MyCallback, that would be too silly
  487. # [17:35] <timeless> oh, hrm
  488. # [17:36] <timeless> i guess i don't need treatnoncallableasnull
  489. # [17:36] <timeless> because normally it'd just get a type error
  490. # [17:36] * timeless is too used to JS coersion in gecko
  491. # [17:36] <timeless> ok, ... some handwaving as i change my example :)
  492. # [17:38] <timeless> assume i was ok w/ people passing garbage, so i had s/MyCallback looped/MyCallback? looped/
  493. # [17:39] * timeless sighs
  494. # [17:39] * timeless rewrites the example
  495. # [17:39] <timeless> thanks for listening :)
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  501. # [17:46] <dglazkov|away> good morning, Whatwg!
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  546. # [19:38] <jgraham> OK, this is not hard people
  547. # [19:39] <jgraham> If, for whatever dumb reason, you decide to use tabs to indent in a file
  548. # [19:39] <jgraham> and you have one line of code that is split over multiple lines in the file
  549. # [19:40] <jgraham> and, for aesthetic reasons you want some special alignment on the lines that doesn't correspond to a whole number of tabstops at the start of each line
  550. # [19:40] <jgraham> You have to use *tabs then spaces* to get the right alignment
  551. # [19:40] <jgraham> *not just spaces at whatever retarded tab width you happen to be using*
  552. # [19:41] <jgraham> Alternatively *avoid the whole problem* and *don't use tabs*
  553. # [19:41] <jgraham> Thank you
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  564. # [20:10] <Hixie> wait, <xmp> is display:block? damnit i always forget that.
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  571. # [20:26] <zewt> jgraham: welcome to pointless waste-of-time holy war
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  573. # [20:27] <zewt> make sure your tabs are on the standard multiple-of-8-spaces so it works everywhere and move on with life
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  583. # [20:47] <Hixie> anyone know about 'caller' being removed? do i just have to remove 'caller' from all my IDLs and then add this for document.all?:
  584. # [20:47] <Hixie> <p>In addition to the above, <code>HTMLAllCollection</code> objects,
  585. # [20:47] <Hixie> in JavaScript, must be callable. Calling such an object must
  586. # [20:47] <Hixie> implicitly invoke the index getter with the same arguments.</p>
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  599. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Alternately, use tabs like a sane person, and let your code editor intelligently do a visual wrap for you.
  600. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> jgraham: But otherwise, yes, a thousand times yes, tab to the same indent, then use spaces.
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  602. # [21:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: would you be interested in giving a talk at https://sites.google.com/site/doceng2011/symposium/workshops ? it's at google
  603. # [21:38] <Hixie> or anyone else for that matter
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  606. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Looking at th eother talks, I don't think I can contribute anything topical.
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  608. # [21:53] <Hixie> they're just looking for someone who can give an "inspirational talk" on html5
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  611. # [21:56] <Hixie> what's the right list to e-mail to get input on browser vendors' future plans regarding svg?
  612. # [21:56] <Hixie> www-svg?
  613. # [21:56] <Hixie> public-svg?
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  616. # [21:58] <shepazu> www-svg, I'd think
  617. # [22:00] <Hixie> k
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  644. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> Ouch, I didn't even think of this: http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2011-09-01-Iran-forged-the-wrong-SSL-certificate.html
  645. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> (Chrome isn't vulnerable, of course, due to cert pinning)
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  652. # [23:53] <zewt> personally, i'm not thrilled about the idea of giving google the ability to run scripts on all of those sites in the first place
  653. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> There's not much alternative if you want the functionality.
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  657. # [23:58] <zewt> there could be; maybe if there was a way of creating cross-origin workers
  658. # Session Close: Sat Sep 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)