/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 10 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> How would that help?
  6. # [00:05] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  7. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> What might make sense is putting it in an iframe instead of a <script>.
  8. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> I assume there's some reason they don't do that, though.
  9. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> Realistically, it's a convenience-security tradeoff that leans toward convenience for almost all sites.
  10. # [00:08] <zewt> well, a sandboxed API (messaging)
  11. # [00:08] <zewt> there's also a performance tradeoff, though, which I'm sure is critical for GA
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  21. # [00:29] <Hixie> jgraham: 504 again
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  28. # [00:46] <Hixie> does hallvord ever hang out on irc?
  29. # [00:47] <zewt> MICROSOFT PROPOSAL: Close the bug - This bug is from an anonymous contributor ...
  30. # [00:47] <zewt> heh
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  32. # [00:48] <Hixie> annevk: you around?
  33. # [00:48] <Hixie> what is it i have to do to make events constructible again?
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  47. # [01:44] <weinig> Hixie: I think you can just copy the model from CustomEvent
  48. # [01:44] <weinig> Hixie: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#interface-customevent
  49. # [01:44] <Hixie> yeah i started doing that
  50. # [01:44] <weinig> Hixie: give the interface a constructor
  51. # [01:44] <weinig> [Constructor(DOMString type, optional CustomEventInit eventInitDict)]
  52. # [01:45] <weinig> ok, which one are you speccing?
  53. # [01:45] <Hixie> all the ones in the whatwg spec
  54. # [01:45] <Hixie> moving them from init*Event to the constructor model
  55. # [01:45] <weinig> excellent
  56. # [01:47] <Hixie> yeah i've been putting off doing it for a while
  57. # [01:48] <weinig> has been putting off landing the implementation for a while :\
  58. # [01:48] <weinig> I finally got Event and CustomEvent into nighties of WebKit though \o/
  59. # [01:49] <Hixie> cool
  60. # [01:49] <weinig> now there is no going back :)
  61. # [01:50] <Hixie> yeah the new model is so much better
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  63. # [01:50] * weinig nods
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  92. # [03:00] <Hixie> is "Foo[]?" valid WebIDL syntax?
  93. # [03:01] <Hixie> for a nullable array type?
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  164. # [06:55] <Hixie> hmm, that's annoying
  165. # [06:56] <Hixie> position:relative affects all position:absolute descendants
  166. # [06:57] <Hixie> so you can't have a descendant that uses one containing block while the other uses another
  167. # [06:58] <Hixie> e.g. the "IDL" :before labels for class=idl blocks and the .status boxes in those same blocks
  168. # [06:58] <Hixie> grr
  169. # [07:00] <dbaron> Yeah, the 'position' property was pretty much all wrong...
  170. # [07:03] <Hixie> is calc() implemented by anyone yet? i've worked around this by changing the way the positioning works for the IDL boxes, but now I have to have the margin-top be -0.625em-1px
  171. # [07:04] <Hixie> (actually even better would be -(0.5em*1rem/small + thin) where small is the font-size keyword and thin is the border-width keyword)
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  175. # [07:35] <dbaron> Hixie, calc() is implemented, with prefixes, by IE and Gecko
  176. # [07:35] <dbaron> Hixie, actually, not sure if IE used prefixes...
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  178. # [07:36] <Hixie> prefixes are too much of a pain to use for me to consider them implemented
  179. # [07:36] <Hixie> why are we still prefixing it, anyway?
  180. # [07:36] <Hixie> wasn't that specced like half a decade ago?
  181. # [07:36] <Hixie> (for me to consider them implemented enough to use, i mean)
  182. # [07:37] <dbaron> hopefully we'll get that draft to CR sometime early next year...
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  185. # [07:38] <Hixie> it strikes me that the csswg might be the group that would benefit the most from dropping the whole TR process
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  187. # [07:39] <dbaron> we'd still need to make coherent decisions about when to drop prefixes
  188. # [07:40] <dbaron> anyway, 'night
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  229. # [11:50] <annevk> Hixie, so lazy
  230. # [11:50] <annevk> (re automatic event constructors)
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  235. # [12:06] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: both
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  239. # [12:26] <annevk> "must be implementation-, device-, and platform-specific"
  240. # [12:26] <annevk> the more I read DOM Level 3 Events, the more confused I get
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  249. # [13:12] <bga_> can anybody give me copy of Dash spec? I havn't @google.com mail :(
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  270. # [14:00] <Woodkid> hello guys
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  283. # [14:27] <zcorpan> Hixie: btw you're probably better off reimplementing the IDL labels since they are positioned differently in all browsers (i only tested opera when i wrote it so check opera for how i intended it to look)
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  353. # [17:41] <jarek> Hi
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  356. # [17:42] <jarek> why window.localStorage.setItem is converting everything to string?
  357. # [17:42] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  358. # [17:43] <jarek> should I be using JSON.stringify and JSON.parse when passing and retriving data from local storage?
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  360. # [17:47] <bga_> yes
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  414. # [21:16] <erlehmann> hsivonen, you once wrote an article on PNG gamma correction vs. CSS colors. is there an easier quick-n-dirty-way to make background / seam colors in PNG match with CSS than using transparency?
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  448. # [22:45] <shetech> Hey, all. So I have a "I might have been hallucinating" question for the room at large.
  449. # [22:46] <shetech> Didn't I at one point see a layout tool for columns, not to be confused with table columns, but newspaper-type column layout?
  450. # [22:46] <shetech> Or am I high?
  451. # [22:46] <shetech> some element tag that I now can't find
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  458. # [23:30] <shetech> found it. CSS, not HTML5.
  459. # [23:31] <zewt> heh, that's among the worst possible webpage layouts
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  461. # [23:31] <zewt> pages that make you scroll down and up and down and up
  462. # [23:31] <shetech> zewt: tell me more
  463. # [23:31] <shetech> ah
  464. # [23:31] <shetech> that assumes your content is that lengthy
  465. # [23:32] <zewt> magazines are laid out the way they are to deal with the paper medium; a webpage is completely different and that doesn't make sense
  466. # [23:32] <zcorpan> well there was <multicol>
  467. # [23:32] <zewt> (fortunately, it's not a common one; much more common are pages that reduce text to a three-word column, which is perhaps even more painful)
  468. # [23:33] <shetech> I can think of a number of uses for multiple columns, but I wouldn't use it as a <body> style, for example (yikes).
  469. # [23:33] <shetech> I'm thinking of a CMS that's very content-rich
  470. # [23:33] <shetech> where interior pages might have article columns
  471. # [23:34] <shetech> and I'd want the flow to work automatically
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  473. # [23:35] <shetech> zewt: I totally get it about paper vs. web, but I can still imagine web uses, as long as the designer followed some basic best practices (keeping stuff above the fold, for example)
  474. # [23:35] <zewt> ... please don't fold my monitor
  475. # [23:35] <shetech> has anyone seen how this might behave in a mobile medium, and how graceful is the transition?
  476. # [23:35] <shetech> zewt: hee
  477. # [23:35] <zewt> (seriously after as many years as I've used this stuff I still have no idea what "the fold" is supposed to mean in a web context)
  478. # [23:36] <shetech> ah
  479. # [23:36] <shetech> "fold" in web context is anything that naturally falls in a screen without the need to scrolling. Anything below that scroll line is "below the fold"
  480. # [23:36] <shetech> Of course, that changes depending on screen resolution
  481. # [23:37] <zewt> sometimes it seems to mean "the text after our broken, worthless rss feed text ends" (by people who have broken "summary" rss feeds instead of full-text ones)
  482. # [23:37] <shetech> so it's a slippery slope to define a "best practice"
  483. # [23:37] <zewt> shepazu: but people seem to say it at the end of a block fo text--by the time you get there you've scrolled down a ways anyway, so it no longer makes sense, heh
  484. # [23:37] <shetech> zewt: I haven't heard it used in that context
  485. # [23:38] <shetech> rss, I mean
  486. # [23:38] <zewt> i seem to recall people saying it referred to ads, too (not sure, abp)
  487. # [23:38] <zewt> eg. "after the following giant obnoxious ad" or something like that
  488. # [23:38] <shetech> heh
  489. # [23:39] <shetech> IF the giant obnoxious ad covers the whole page, I could see that
  490. # [23:39] <shetech> but
  491. # [23:39] <zewt> putting those together i'm inclined to take it as "a misappropriated term from other media that people use in lots of different ways" :)
  492. # [23:39] <shetech> well, yes
  493. # [23:39] <shetech> But it's actually appropriate in the context I've heard it, wherein a page design includes stuff at the top of the screen and below that natural scroll line
  494. # [23:39] <zewt> if you viewed the page on a ds, would it be called "the hinge"?
  495. # [23:40] <shetech> I try to design pages where the calls to action and high-value content fall "above the fold"
  496. # [23:40] <shetech> hee. good question.
  497. # [23:40] <zewt> those seem like exactly opposite sets of things :)
  498. # [23:40] <shetech> depends on your page, dunnit?
  499. # [23:40] <shetech> ;-)
  500. # [23:40] <zewt> ("calls to action" being "things that most users don't care about which we're trying to trick them into clicking" vs. actual useful content)
  501. # [23:40] <zewt> well, yes :P
  502. # [23:41] <zewt> on the vast majority of pages merely being on the page and reading is what the user would call "high-value content", though, and everything else ("sign up for no reason!" "click my stupid banner ads!") is low-value distraction, though
  503. # [23:42] <zewt> gotta love the web, where content is that annoying stuff that's distracting the user from signing up for an account
  504. # [23:42] <shetech> I've seen some page designs where, for example, a video port covers the entire top half of a page, with no clear call to action or even description of what the video is supposed to be. Ergo, missing both high value content AND a call to action. :D
  505. # [23:42] <shetech> yeah
  506. # [23:42] <zewt> like i think nyt pops up an obnoxious animated "do something!" (never actually read it) when you scroll near the bottom, when you're still reading
  507. # [23:42] <shetech> One man's fertilizer is another man's smelly nuisance
  508. # [23:42] <zewt> but crap is always crap
  509. # [23:42] <shetech> yeah, I hate that nyt stuff. That's relatively new, and highly annoying
  510. # [23:43] <shetech> har! Indeed!
  511. # [23:43] <shetech> Well, so I'm trying to instruct readers how to avoid crap as much as possible...
  512. # [23:43] <shetech> which includes building pages that are NOT too long
  513. # [23:43] <shetech> and that do NOT include annoying popups
  514. # [23:43] <shetech> and stuff
  515. # [23:43] <zewt> i don't think telling people "don't use popups, they're annoying" is terribly productive
  516. # [23:44] <shetech> heh
  517. # [23:44] <shetech> well, no
  518. # [23:44] <zewt> people know they're annoying
  519. # [23:44] <shetech> That was perhaps a bad example
  520. # [23:44] <zewt> one thing about the web: you can very quickly tell how highly someone thinks of their own content
  521. # [23:44] <shetech> gad. no kidding.
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  523. # [23:45] <shetech> marketers and content developers often have very different opinions
  524. # [23:45] <zewt> if someone cares little enough about what they have to say to have monkeys dancing back and forth across it continuously, i'm not sure why I should care either
  525. # [23:45] <shetech> yep.
  526. # [23:45] <shetech> agreed.
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  528. # [23:45] <shetech> look! shiny!
  529. # [23:45] * shetech groans
  530. # [23:46] <shetech> one thing about columns, though, to your earlier point, is that the human eye can still read columnar content a little easier than a big block of grey-space
  531. # [23:46] <shetech> as long as the block containing those columns is, as you suggest, all above a magical scroll line
  532. # [23:46] <zewt> that's just a max-width thing, though; and it's very often taken to the point of a fault (eg. the three-word-columns problem)
  533. # [23:47] <shetech> yes
  534. # [23:47] <shetech> good point
  535. # [23:47] <zewt> (even better, when it turns into a column of single words as it flows around an image plonked directly into the text)
  536. # [23:47] <shetech> heh
  537. # [23:47] <shetech> also a good point
  538. # [23:47] <zewt> (i also hate when people apply the "max width is easier to read" idea to code, where it doesn't apply at all)
  539. # [23:47] <shetech> ew. no kidding.
  540. # [23:48] <zcorpan> the proposal for # in data url seems like magic
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  543. # [23:48] <zewt> (a very common "argument" for the python-80-columns thing)
  544. # [23:48] <shetech> well, I'm writing for dummies, so that may be more detail than I can get into
  545. # [23:48] <shetech> :D
  546. # [23:49] <shetech> as with most things, there's room for judgment calls
  547. # [23:49] <shetech> all we can do is recommend
  548. # [23:49] <shetech> anyway, thanks for your insight
  549. # [23:49] <shetech> that was helpful
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The end :)