/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-12 / end

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  185. # [12:40] <asmodai> ye gods
  186. # [12:40] <asmodai> whole web in uproar over that leaked Google document
  187. # [12:43] <asmodai> Ah, I see othermaciej has been replying on Reddit about it :P
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  190. # [12:51] <Philip`> Being forwarded to a public mailing list by the document's author doesn't sound much like a leak
  191. # [12:52] <asmodai> Philip`: Fair point.
  192. # [12:53] <jgraham> Depends if he was supposed to make the information public or not really
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  194. # [12:54] <annevk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXKDu6cdXLI
  195. # [12:54] <annevk> via ojan
  196. # [12:55] <asmodai> jgraham: I honestly don't know.
  197. # [12:55] <asmodai> Just lovely to see the discussion erupt. People comparing Google to MS now.
  198. # [12:56] <jgraham> Well it's not surprising
  199. # [12:58] <Philip`> It just seems like another instance of Google thinking they're capable of redesigning the whole web better, and being happy to implement it unilaterally without caring much about the impact on any part of the web Google is not involved in
  200. # [13:00] <Philip`> (The whole Dash thing, that is, not specifically the "We will strongly encourage Google developers start off targeting Chrome-only" thing)
  201. # [13:01] <Philip`> (or Dart or whatever it is)
  202. # [13:03] <woef> It's not really surprising.
  203. # [13:04] <woef> Seeing as that's what graceful degradation means to a whole slew of web devs out there.
  204. # [13:04] <annevk> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/kc9ai/internal_googledocument_we_will_strongly/c2j67v2
  205. # [13:04] <woef> I've even seen sites that introduced the "works best with browser X" crap again.
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  207. # [13:05] <jgraham> Yeah, othermaciej's comment is quite insightful
  208. # [13:05] <annevk> lol
  209. # [13:06] <annevk> in reply to othermaciej
  210. # [13:06] <annevk> "If you've followed HTML5 at all, you'll notice how long it's taken"
  211. # [13:08] <annevk> come on othermaciej, at least you could follow HTML5
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  213. # [13:15] <zcorpan> and look up Ian Hickson while you're at it
  214. # [13:23] <asmodai> annevk: yeah, I had already replied to that
  215. # [13:23] <asmodai> asmodai/ashemedai
  216. # [13:26] <zcorpan> asmodai: if you'd followed whatwg/html5 at all you'd known that it didn't exist in 2003 :P
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  221. # [13:59] <asmodai> zcorpan: haha
  222. # [13:59] <asmodai> zcorpan: Well, I just did a whatwg.org search on maciej and the archives showed this and that
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  227. # [14:18] <asmodai> zcorpan: And my other excuse is that I only follow it on the fringes. ;)
  228. # [14:23] <zcorpan> asmodai: :)
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  234. # [15:00] <annevk> Anyone interested in writing tests for http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/ ?
  235. # [15:00] <annevk> I think we primarily need tests that follow from DOM4 and Web IDL
  236. # [15:00] <annevk> I.e. not tests that follow from requirements in HTML or XMLHttpRequest; that is up to those specifications
  237. # [15:01] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.22.185)
  238. # [15:02] <annevk> So e.g. is the interface object exposed, can you construct it using new ProgressEvent(), are the right attributes exposed (negative test for initProgressEvent might be nice), etc.
  239. # [15:02] <annevk> s/, etc.//
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  268. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> I think one of the lessons from this weekend is "why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
  269. # [16:04] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@12.104.145.50) (Quit: davidb)
  270. # [16:07] <annevk> "impassive French man by Karl Dubost"
  271. # [16:08] <annevk> :)
  272. # [16:08] <annevk> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2011/the-web-standards-hoedown/
  273. # [16:09] <karlcow> annevk: yup. Not visible in the video, I was moving both of my hips by slight muscular movement. Subtle but enjoying a lot. I abstain to sing to not ruin the full thing ;)
  274. # [16:09] * Joins: robreact (~chatzilla@smtp1bos1.globalmediaxchange.com)
  275. # [16:09] <annevk> haha
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  278. # [16:16] * zcorpan wonders what the devrel team are smoking
  279. # [16:23] <annevk> It does seem the VP8 bitstream document is still being developed: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bankoski-vp8-bitstream
  280. # [16:23] <annevk> Currently at version 06, expires February next year
  281. # [16:28] <Philip`> Presumably only the document is being developed, not the bitstream format itself, given the deployment status?
  282. # [16:29] <annevk> I meant the specification
  283. # [16:29] <Philip`> "The bitstream is defined by the reference source code and not this narrative." - sounds like documentation, not specification
  284. # [16:32] <annevk> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67882#c21 o_O
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  286. # [16:36] <annevk> Philip`, hmm yeah
  287. # [16:38] <zewt> annevk: rather ... rude
  288. # [16:38] <zewt> the whole *finger shake* "shame on you" thing
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  292. # [16:44] <annevk> So the bitstream stuff is normatively referenced by standards track documents such as http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-vp8-01
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  295. # [16:45] <annevk> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-alvestrand-dispatch-rtcweb-protocols is similarly on standards track with normative references but is almost expired
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  298. # [16:47] <zewt> can we expire this horrible pagination already
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  300. # [16:48] <annevk> And whatever happened to this? http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/02/royalty-free-mpeg-video-coding-standard.html
  301. # [16:48] <annevk> zewt, switching to Unicode is controversial within the IETF, don't count on it
  302. # [16:49] <zewt> (didn't ietf specs already stop with the "paginate for 80s printers, 80-column fixed-width" nonsense? thought i saw some at least somewhat less insanely formatted)
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  304. # [16:49] <zewt> annevk: can still be ascii, they just need to stop pretending people print specs on 66-line-or-whatever-it-is dot matrix printers
  305. # [16:50] <zewt> and read specs in 80x25 terminals
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  308. # [16:52] <zewt> it's just sort of embarrassing for a group claiming to make specs for the modern internet to be so painfully stuck in the old one, heh
  309. # [16:53] <zcorpan> wait, you don't print specs?
  310. # [16:53] * zcorpan must have missed the memo
  311. # [16:53] <zewt> of course not, but certainly not in the fixed resolution of printers from two decades ago :P
  312. # [16:54] <zewt> what were they typically, 80x66? 80x55? something like that
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  320. # [17:03] <Philip`> zewt: Are the less insane ones you saw the HTML output from xml2rfc (like http://xml.resource.org/authoring/README.html)?
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  323. # [17:05] <Philip`> Change is hard, so I guess having a separate tool that can generate both the obsolete text format and a slightly more readable HTML format is the only practical way to move things forward
  324. # [17:06] <Philip`> and then the fuddy-duddies can be happy that there's an unreadable text version of a spec they'll never want to read anyway, while everyone else can use the better version, assuming there's sufficient links between the two that people won't all get stuck on the old version
  325. # [17:06] <zewt> not sure; can't find any looking briefly through my history
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  327. # [17:07] <zewt> seems like if it's so hard just to update formatting from something obviously well over a decade obsolete and in a way that makes things actively harder to read, something is fatally flawed in the organization, heh
  328. # [17:07] <zewt> (flaws in the structure of a standards body? never!)
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  331. # [17:09] <zewt> one might think that if the html wasn't insane you could just apply a different stylesheet ... but, well, it does appear to be insane (everything is a <PRE>)
  332. # [17:09] <zewt> i guess you could still style over PRE, just sort of weird
  333. # [17:10] <zewt> and the markup is probably not good enough to actually do a usable job that way
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  335. # [17:14] <Philip`> I guess it's fairly easy to agree that the spec style is obsolete but the hard thing is either deciding what new style to change to (since a dozen different people will have two dozen different ideas for what the standard should be), or being willing to abandon the whole notion of consistent formatting across specs and letting editors have a lot of flexibility and waiting for conventions to emerge naturally
  336. # [17:15] <zewt> a standards body that comes to a standstill when they try to come up with a new standard for their own spec formatting? that'd also be embarrassing :)
  337. # [17:15] <Philip`> (The W3C approach seems more like the latter option, so every spec looks a bit different and some look very different)
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  339. # [17:16] <Philip`> A standard for spec formatting is like a whole multi-storey complex of bikesheds :-p
  340. # [17:16] <jcranmer> write it in LaTeX
  341. # [17:16] <jcranmer> problem solved
  342. # [17:17] <jcranmer> 10:16 * glazou did that too but went back to bed at 3:10am :-D
  343. # [17:17] <jcranmer> 10:17 < khuey> it took me till about 3:30 :-P
  344. # [17:17] <jcranmer> 10:18 -!- You're now known as jcranmer
  345. # [17:17] <jcranmer> 10:26 < firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/da2f5b63ba1e - Brian R. Bondy - Bug 685847 - Crash in [@ ILFindLastID ]. r=jimm
  346. # [17:17] <jcranmer> 10:42 -!- ddahl [ddahl@moz-21FE89E6.sanjosemarriot-wifi.moz11q3.allhands] has left #developers [Leaving]
  347. # [17:17] <jcranmer> 10:59 < smaug> ehsan: why is Node.parentElement "addon-compat" ?
  348. # [17:17] <jcranmer> 10:59 < smaug> because of uuid change?
  349. # [17:17] <jcranmer> 10:59 < ehsan> smaug: because it changes the IID of many interfaces
  350. # [17:17] <jcranmer> 10:59 < ehsan> yes
  351. # [17:17] <jcranmer> 10:59 < ehsan> that will break all binary addons relying on those interfaces
  352. # [17:17] <jcranmer> what the?
  353. # [17:19] <jgraham> jcranmer: Next time could you try to do that when you are typing in credit card details or something? I'm sure we could all use some free stuff ;)
  354. # [17:22] <Philip`> What could be better than a document writing system where you have to run the document compilation process at least twice after every change else you might end up with randomly incorrect output?
  355. # [17:22] <jgraham> One where you have to run it three times?
  356. # [17:23] <Philip`> I assume there are some edge cases where you might need to run LaTeX infinite times and it still won't converge
  357. # [17:25] * Philip` wonders if there is any sane blog software where you can insert diagrams by writing inline LaTeX with TikZ and having it automatically convert into a nice PNG
  358. # [17:25] * Philip` would like something like that
  359. # [17:25] <zewt> sounds sort of google-graphsy
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  363. # [17:29] <david_carlisle> Philip`: yes, but it's pretty rare in real document. although easy to generate fake examples
  364. # [17:30] <zewt> well, depends on what you're writing...
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  366. # [17:38] <annevk> smaug____, was http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-XPath/xpath.html#TextNodes never implemented in Gecko that you know?
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  368. # [17:38] <annevk> smaug____, Opera has some oddities because the person who implemented it tried to match the XPath requirements of there only being a single text node
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  370. # [17:47] <smaug____> annevk: sicking and peterv know about XPath in gecko
  371. # [17:48] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-13-1.dynamic.amis.net)
  372. # [17:49] <smaug____> (...but looking at the source code now...)
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  374. # [17:51] <annevk> It was a delight to find out wholeText and replaceWholeText were introduced to better match the XML InfoSet!
  375. # [17:51] <annevk> thanks smaug____
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  392. # [18:16] <smaug____> annevk: so, based on testing the result node set can contain two adjacent text nodes in Gecko and Webkit
  393. # [18:16] <smaug____> In Opera only one
  394. # [18:18] <annevk> if someone is ever going to define XPath and the DOM this willful violation of XPath better be documented
  395. # [18:18] <annevk> having said that, we haven't had that much bug reports on the issue
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  410. # [18:47] <annevk> Isn't there something like Akismet for wikis? I'm getting bored with deleting spam from the WHATWG Wiki
  411. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> annevk, there's an Akismet plugin for MediaWiki, IIRC.
  412. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> Check mediawiki.org.
  413. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> Or at least there's a Project Honeypot one.
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  416. # [18:52] <annevk> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:AkismetKlik
  417. # [18:53] <annevk> I will ask Hixie to install it
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  460. # [21:25] <timeless> has anyone here seen http://www.dfki.de/~kroener/omm/omm_format_spec_0_98.pdf ?
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  462. # [21:28] <timeless> or perhaps http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/omm/charter
  463. # [21:29] <annevk> omnomnom charter?
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  526. # [21:32] <timeless> omnomnom reminds me of cookie monster
  527. # [21:32] <timeless> cookie monster was my friend
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  529. # [21:32] <timeless> the sponsors of this are just monsters
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  531. # [21:32] <timeless> (the above is my personal opinion and doesn't represent my employer's)
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  533. # [21:33] <timeless> awesome
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  535. # [21:33] <timeless> Special Note: If this tag is given it must be the _last_ tag in the <omm:block> section!
  536. # [21:34] <timeless> (there are a number of tags with the same special note)
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  542. # [21:36] <Philip`> timeless: I see two with that note, and they are explicitly mutually exclusive
  543. # [21:36] <timeless> Philip`: well, 2 is a number :)
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  546. # [21:36] <zewt> 0 is a number too, but it also isn't normally included in "a number" :)
  547. # [21:36] <timeless> surely there are better ways to do this?
  548. # [21:37] <timeless> zewt: well, a [plural] [natural] number of ...
  549. # [21:38] <Philip`> timeless: Would making their XSD schema normative be better?
  550. # [21:38] <timeless> Philip`: offhand, them not existing would probably be best :)
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  555. # [21:40] <Philip`> Hmm, http://www.dfki.de/~haupert/files/omm_xg_sample.xsd doesn't seem to encode that constraint anyway
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  557. # [21:41] <annevk> .xsd...
  558. # [21:41] * annevk runs
  559. # [21:41] <zewt> i clicked on that and my face literally exploded all over my desk
  560. # [21:41] <timeless> Philip`: feel free to send feedback ;-)
  561. # [21:42] <Philip`> zewt: I metaphorically don't believe you
  562. # [21:42] <zewt> do i need to take a picture of hunks of brain all over my keyboard
  563. # [21:42] <timeless> yes
  564. # [21:43] <timeless> although if you have a notary public handy, we'll accept a Posted Notarized document certifying that it happened
  565. # [21:43] <Philip`> timeless: Since I can't quite figure out what OMM is about, other than "fancy log files", and since I have other work to be doing, I think I'll pass :-)
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  567. # [21:44] <timeless> well, seems like you did a pretty good job of figuring out something about it pretty quickly
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  571. # [21:46] <timeless> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Sep/0070.html
  572. # [21:46] <timeless> ah, they got feedback from ph
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The end :)