/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-13 / end

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  125. # [08:28] <annevk> Say we introduce new Range(); what would the version with arguments look like? Range(startnode, startoffset, endnode, endoffset)?
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  127. # [08:28] <annevk> Any others?
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  131. # [08:45] <rniwa> annevk: hi annevk
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  141. # [08:58] <annevk> hey rniwa
  142. # [08:59] <annevk> your nick is confusing in the font I'm using, tried auto-completing on the letter m :)
  143. # [08:59] <rniwa> annevk: yeah
  144. # [08:59] <rniwa> apparently w also looks like m in some fonts
  145. # [08:59] <rniwa> annevk: confusingly, miwa is also a valid japanese last name
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  147. # [08:59] <annevk> :)
  148. # [09:00] <rniwa> annevk: my machine was labeled "miwa" when i worked from tokyo office this spring
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  150. # [09:00] <annevk> hey I was wondering, is it the plan that UndoManager moves back into HTML or will it be a separate specification?
  151. # [09:00] <rniwa> annevk: that's why use RNiwa on my website
  152. # [09:00] <annevk> haha
  153. # [09:00] <rniwa> annevk: not sure. got to check with Hixie
  154. # [09:00] <rniwa> annevk: but i think it'll be separate for a whole at least
  155. # [09:01] <annevk> because if not you need to include stuff like partial interface Document { ... }
  156. # [09:01] <rniwa> annevk: I probably need to cross-post it on public-webapps at some point though
  157. # [09:01] <annevk> to define the undoManager attribute in terms of IDL
  158. # [09:01] <rniwa> annevk: yeah... that'll be quite annoying
  159. # [09:02] <annevk> should be real easy...
  160. # [09:02] <rniwa> annevk: I think adding undoManager property is simple enough that I don't need that for now
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  162. # [09:02] <rniwa> annevk: like i've been avoiding to completely write all the details to avoid work in the case someone suggests a radical change in the API
  163. # [09:02] <rniwa> s/completely write/write out/
  164. # [09:03] <annevk> partial interface Document { readonly attribute UndoManager undoManager; };
  165. # [09:03] <annevk> fair enough
  166. # [09:03] <rniwa> annevk: I guess I can do that
  167. # [09:03] <rniwa> annevk: probably also to Element
  168. # [09:03] <annevk> yeah
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  177. #
  178. # Session Start: Tue Sep 13 11:54:35 2011
  179. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  180. # [11:54] * Now talking in #whatwg
  181. # [11:54] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  182. # [11:54] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  191. # [12:03] <annevk> Oh sweet
  192. # [12:03] <annevk> not all Range tests use testharness
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  195. # [12:08] <karlcow> a new summit to explore (in the future) for annevk http://pruned.blogspot.com/2011/09/mountain-for-netherlands.html
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  198. # [12:13] <annevk> I'm afraid if we get something like that it'll be like Fuji (not that I ever climbed that one)
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  218. # [13:34] <annevk> the fuck http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14122
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  222. # [13:59] <annevk> I wonder what the guy who keeps complaining about Workers and the DOM thinks the feedback is for? IRC?
  223. # [13:59] <annevk> s/feedback/feedback box/
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  232. # [14:26] <zcorpan> marked them as dup
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  234. # [14:30] <annevk> whoa, AryehGregor has made some crazy cool tests
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  251. #
  252. # Session Start: Tue Sep 13 16:09:16 2011
  253. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  254. # [16:09] * Now talking in #whatwg
  255. # [16:09] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  256. # [16:09] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  274. # [16:59] <AryehGregor> annevk, what's crazy cool about my tests, other than being so ridiculously elaborate that no one but me can understand the implementation?
  275. # [16:59] <AryehGregor> Well, and they're thorough, I guess. I'm curious which tests you thought were crazy cool, though.
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  278. # [17:04] <annevk> the thorough tests :)
  279. # [17:05] <annevk> but yeah, figuring out what the bugs are from those tests is kind of awkward
  280. # [17:05] <annevk> AryehGregor, so the reason you cannot correct range boundary points after a rename yourself is because you do not have access to a the list of associated range objects?
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  283. # [17:07] <AryehGregor> annevk, right.
  284. # [17:07] <AryehGregor> Only the browser has a full list of Range objects.
  285. # [17:07] <AryehGregor> And only it can, because anything else would expose GC behavior.
  286. # [17:08] <annevk> authors could keep track of everything they create themselves
  287. # [17:08] <AryehGregor> In principle, yes, but it wouldn't behave right for ranges they don't create. It's also tedious and error-prone.
  288. # [17:08] <annevk> is this mostly a problem for Selection?
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  290. # [17:08] <annevk> or Editing for that matter
  291. # [17:09] <AryehGregor> If it were just Selection, there'd be no big problem, because there's only one and you can always fix it.
  292. # [17:09] <AryehGregor> In practice, Selection is the big use-case, yeah.
  293. # [17:09] <AryehGregor> Which is why the status quo is okay.
  294. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> dglazkov seemed to think that a rename method on Element would be useful for his component model stuff, whatever that is.
  295. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> I don't personally know of non-editing use-cases. I'm not strongly committed to such a feature at all.
  296. # [17:11] <annevk> okay
  297. # [17:11] <annevk> postponed it is
  298. # [17:12] <annevk> AryehGregor, shall I move your Range- tests into http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps
  299. # [17:12] <annevk> ?
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  302. # [17:19] <AryehGregor> annevk, feel free.
  303. # [17:20] <annevk> Are you planning on helping out with editing Range by the way?
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  308. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> http://html5-mediasource-api.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/draft-spec/mediasource-draft-spec.html
  309. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> "extends HTMLMediaElement to allow JavaScript to generate media streams for playback"
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  314. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> annevk, maybe, if I find the time.
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  370. # [18:55] <asmodai> http://www.buildwindows.com/ -- showing some HTML 5 support in new Windows build tools
  371. # [18:55] <asmodai> right now that is
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  374. # [19:01] <espadrine> asmodai: thanks!
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  376. # [19:02] <asmodai> I am not sure I like the calls to the native Windows API through JS
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  383. # [19:09] <asmodai> apparently they showed off some IE 10 earlier, ought to be able to browse back to that in the stream timeline
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  391. # [19:14] <espadrine> asmodai: I wish, but I guess it mostly was the usual "look at the new http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/ tests we did"
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  394. # [19:14] <jarek> Hi
  395. # [19:14] <asmodai> Ah ok
  396. # [19:15] <jarek> what's the recommend way for iterating over a HTMLCollection element?
  397. # [19:15] <asmodai> Well, for what it is worth, it seems one of the more recent builds of IE 10 scored like 300+ on html5test.com
  398. # [19:15] <jarek> HTMLCollections don't seem to have forEach function
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  401. # [19:18] <miketaylr> Array.prototype.slice.call(document.all) :P
  402. # [19:19] <miketaylr> (which will return an Array)
  403. # [19:19] <jarek> yeah, I have just stumbled upont this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/222841/most-efficient-way-to-convert-an-htmlcollection-to-an-array
  404. # [19:19] <jarek> how about:
  405. # [19:19] <jarek> HTMLCollection.prototype.forEach = function(callback) {
  406. # [19:19] <jarek> for(var i=0, j=this.length; i<j; i++) {
  407. # [19:19] <jarek> callback(this[i]);
  408. # [19:19] <jarek> }
  409. # [19:19] <jarek> }
  410. # [19:20] <Philip`> jarek: That will break if callback modifies the DOM in a way that affects the collection's contents
  411. # [19:21] <Philip`> which seems non-ideal for a general-purpose function
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  415. # [19:22] <jarek> could Array.prototype.slice be significantly slower or faster than using regular "for var i=0; i<collection.length; i++" loop?
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  418. # [19:23] <jarek> no, wait... it just converts HTMLCollection to Array, I still have to iterate over it :/
  419. # [19:23] <robreact> just use a for loop
  420. # [19:23] <Philip`> I'd expect that in almost every case, they'll be so fast so you won't care about any difference
  421. # [19:24] <Philip`> Write whatever's most correct and readable, and only worry about optimisation if profiling indicates it's a bottleneck
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  424. # [19:26] <jarek> I see, I guess I will just use regular for loop
  425. # [19:26] <jarek> converting HTMLCollection to an array would have some disadvantages
  426. # [19:26] <jarek> like it will no longer update when DOM is modified
  427. # [19:27] <jamesr> you could argue that's an advantage
  428. # [19:27] <jamesr> depending on what you are doing
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  434. # [19:46] <timeless> jarek: you can use Array.prototype.concat(collection).forEach(function(){}) in gecko...
  435. # [19:47] <jarek> what's the difference between element.childElementCount and element.children.lenght?
  436. # [19:48] <timeless> in gecko, the latter has an extra roundtrip
  437. # [19:49] <timeless> each <.> for non js objects can be thought of as "expensive"
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  439. # [19:50] <timeless> (the same is probably true for other impls..)
  440. # [19:50] <jarek> so using element.childElementCount is a better practice then? Or is performance gain really insignificant?
  441. # [19:50] <timeless> dunno, you'd have to measure it
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  446. # [19:59] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  448. # [20:02] <jamesr> good morning, dglazkov!
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  451. # [20:04] <dglazkov> looking at whatwg wiki change list, it's primarily:
  452. # [20:04] <dglazkov> a) annevk leaving notes
  453. # [20:04] <dglazkov> b) annevk clearing spam
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  474. # [20:39] <annevk> jarek, the plan is to nuke childElementCount
  475. # [20:39] <annevk> jarek, so avoid it
  476. # [20:40] <jarek> annevk: I thought that once an API get's defined in DOM, it can't be removed in any feature revisions
  477. # [20:40] <annevk> future you mean?
  478. # [20:41] <jarek> s/feature/future
  479. # [20:41] <annevk> given the mess that is DOM Level 3 Core, we abandoned that idea
  480. # [20:41] <jarek> childElementCount was added in DOM3?
  481. # [20:41] <annevk> after DOM3 even
  482. # [20:41] <annevk> did not get enough peer review and was pushed through for no good reason :(
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  484. # [20:43] <smaug____> "peer review"?
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  486. # [20:44] <smaug____> I thought browser vendors were ok with Element Traversal spec
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  488. # [20:46] <annevk> I think nobody realized we had children.length already
  489. # [20:46] <annevk> Actually, nobody there did realize
  490. # [20:46] <annevk> And that is how childElementCount got through
  491. # [20:46] <annevk> I tried to get it removed
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  493. # [20:50] <smaug____> hmm, apparently I reviewed the element traversal patch
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  496. # [20:58] <jarek> is there a way to check how much space is left in widow.localStorage and window.sessionStorage?
  497. # [20:58] <jarek> I remember reading that those objects have quota of 5mb on most browsers
  498. # [20:59] <annevk> nope
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  536. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Nice.
  537. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Thanks, Google Docs.
  538. # [22:20] <zewt> google docs is one of google's ... less impressive products. heh
  539. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> As soon as I try to input a Unicode character using Ctrl-Shift-u, it totally breaks.
  540. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> So that I have to refresh the page.
  541. # [22:21] <zewt> (granted, my impression is mostly from trying to use it on android; their android app is fairly bad)
  542. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Since of course, they need to make up their own text handling instead of using the platform.
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  547. # [22:39] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: "Unicode character" being non-ASCII?
  548. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, well, I assume it would do the same if I tried Ctrl-Shift-u65 or something.
  549. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> It was the Ctrl-Shift-u that made it go haywire.
  550. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> Because platform conventions are for chumps, right?
  551. # [22:40] * Joins: timeless (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless)
  552. # [22:40] <timeless> hsivonen: ping
  553. # [22:41] <timeless> validator.w3 has "Result: Passed, 1 warning(s)", it'd be really nice if that warning(s) was a link to the part of the page with the warning
  554. # [22:41] <timeless> in my case, i can't find any warnings on the output page :(
  555. # [22:41] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Oh, wait. I read "u" as "v".
  556. # [22:44] <jgraham> Alternative view: Google docs is one of their more impressive products and the web continues to suck as a platform for that kind of thing
  557. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> It's persistently annoying how it always works a little different than I expect. Maybe it just has bad Linux support, though.
  558. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> But really, things like Ctrl-Shift-u work just fine on every other website, why do they have to mess it up?
  559. # [22:51] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  560. # [22:53] * timeless wonders what ctrl-shift-u is
  561. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> The way to enter arbitrary Unicode code points in GNOME.
  562. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> I use it all the time.
  563. # [22:53] <timeless> technically it's in gtk+ fwiw
  564. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Dashes, RLMs and LRMs, arrows, accented characters, etc.
  565. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> I stand corrected.
  566. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> (I knew that, theoretically.)
  567. # [22:55] <zewt> AryehGregor: well, then there's Twitter's page, which screws up ... all menu hotkeys
  568. # [22:55] <zewt> i've always found it very strange that browsers *let* pages do that
  569. # [22:55] * Quits: shans (~shanestep@113.197.106.249) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  570. # [22:55] <zewt> (cancel keydowns for major browser hotkeys)
  571. # [22:56] <timeless> AryehGregor: this sounds more like a browser fault than a web page fault
  572. # [22:56] <timeless> the right fix for this stuff is for there to be a way for a web page to say to the UA
  573. # [22:56] <timeless> "i'd like to handle the following actions {list}"
  574. # [22:56] * Joins: shans (~shanestep@113.197.106.249)
  575. # [22:56] <timeless> "please let the user map them however, and tell me when the user has fired one"
  576. # [22:56] <timeless> that way if you want to use f99 to trigger <bold>, you could
  577. # [22:56] <timeless> and your UA could persist that preference
  578. # [22:57] <timeless> and if i want to use <tab> to trigger <bold>, i could, and my UA would persist that preference
  579. # [22:57] <timeless> please just make that happen :)
  580. # [22:58] <timeless> a UA today is in control to the extent that it should enable you to tell it "don't pass ctrl-shift-u to the web page"
  581. # [22:59] <timeless> and "please map <x> to ctrl-shift-u for the web page"
  582. # [22:59] <timeless> but sadly no UAs do this :(
  583. # [22:59] <timeless> (well, ignoring accessibility agents)
  584. # [22:59] <zewt> well, user keymappings are pretty niche
  585. # [22:59] <timeless> zewt: well
  586. # [22:59] <zewt> not that i'm personally against features that happen to fit my niche, but
  587. # [22:59] <timeless> users with limited keysets are becoming much more common
  588. # [22:59] <zewt> understandable for it not to be the highest priority
  589. # [22:59] <timeless> not everyone has a 104 key keyboard these days
  590. # [22:59] <jgraham> That sounds like it wouldn't work
  591. # [23:00] <timeless> your average found doesn't have one certainly
  592. # [23:00] <timeless> jgraham: why not?
  593. # [23:00] <jgraham> What would the page write for help text?
  594. # [23:00] <zewt> jgraham: you're already in trouble there with mac keyboards :P
  595. # [23:00] <timeless> jgraham: well, if it detects a UA that supports it
  596. # [23:01] <timeless> it'd just register events "bold", "underline", etc.
  597. # [23:01] <jgraham> zewt: Right, but when there are only two options it's more or less OK
  598. # [23:01] <timeless> and then have a link to the UAs help for mapping them
  599. # [23:01] <jgraham> Most people know if they are using a mac
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  601. # [23:01] <timeless> i recently dealt w/ a "web app" which insisted i use IE6- or FF3-
  602. # [23:01] <jgraham> Generally these things that are supposed to be autoconfigured by the UA haven't really worked out
  603. # [23:01] <jgraham> see also:accesskey
  604. # [23:02] <timeless> it's really a bad idea for web pages to be forced to hard code understandings of UAs
  605. # [23:02] <timeless> yeah, accesskey was a nice failure
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  607. # [23:02] <timeless> but part of it was that it was yet another way to capture user keystrokes
  608. # [23:02] <timeless> instead of a way to let users be in control
  609. # [23:03] <zewt> user control is often sort of a last-ditch fallback
  610. # [23:03] <timeless> a simple mapping of <event, description> for registration should work
  611. # [23:03] <timeless> possibly with default mappings
  612. # [23:03] <timeless> zewt: it's rarely done, let alone done well
  613. # [23:03] <zewt> given the choice between "everything works" and "everything's broken, but the user can fix it", the former is almost always better, of course
  614. # [23:03] <zewt> the latter becomes the fallback when people can't figure out how to implement the former
  615. # [23:03] <jgraham> Indeed
  616. # [23:03] <zewt> (because, sometimes, it's hard)
  617. # [23:04] <timeless> the former only works for 3 months around product launch
  618. # [23:04] <timeless> and only in the target environment
  619. # [23:04] <timeless> which ceases to be available at month 4
  620. # [23:04] <zewt> depends on how competently it's designed
  621. # [23:04] <jgraham> Users don't want to be "in control" in the sense of having lots of options
  622. # [23:04] <jgraham> They want to have everything work by default
  623. # [23:04] <jgraham> and have a simple story to follow when they get stuck
  624. # [23:04] <timeless> on a keyboardless device
  625. # [23:05] <timeless> how do you want the user to deal w/ sending ctrl-shift-u?
  626. # [23:05] <jgraham> Not "oh you can go to (some UA dependent config screen) and (do something complex with a long list of options)"
  627. # [23:05] <zewt> of course, that can mean having an interface competent enough so that the UA (not the user, whenever possible) can negotiate a workable interface with scripts
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  629. # [23:05] <jgraham> AIUI ctrl-shift-u isn't a webapp feature, it's an OS feature
  630. # [23:06] <timeless> AryehGregor: how is this thing breaking precisely?
  631. # [23:06] <timeless> is the app receiving the unicode character and dying because of it?
  632. # [23:06] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:baac:6fff:fe99:adfb)
  633. # [23:06] <jgraham> I would expect webapps not to break OS features, sure
  634. # [23:06] <timeless> or is it preventing it from being triggered in the first place?
  635. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> timeless, very weirdly.
  636. # [23:06] * timeless assumed the latter
  637. # [23:06] <jgraham> Just like I expect them to work with the compose key or IMEs
  638. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> No, it breaks from when it gets Ctrl-Shift-u.
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  640. # [23:06] <timeless> define breaks more precisely, please?
  641. # [23:07] <zewt> is it trying to capture something else? eg. is it seeing the ctrl-u and screaming "underline!" and cancelling the event?
  642. # [23:07] <timeless> zewt: that would be my bet..
  643. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> timeless, sorry, GTG.
  644. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> Try it and see.
  645. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> It was really weird.
  646. # [23:07] * timeless doesn't want to install linux just to test
  647. # [23:07] <zewt> not matching keyboard events precisely enough is a very common bug
  648. # [23:07] <jgraham> Keyboad events are a world of hurt
  649. # [23:07] <jgraham> that's not webapps fault
  650. # [23:08] <timeless> no, it's UA + DOM
  651. # [23:08] <jgraham> It's a browser/specs problem
  652. # [23:08] <zewt> the platform's fault
  653. # [23:08] <timeless> generally
  654. # [23:08] <jgraham> I'm not convinced that DOM3 events makes it better
  655. # [23:08] <jgraham> in fact that spec seems to be a disaster
  656. # [23:09] <timeless> jgraham: out of curiosity, can you actually point to web apps that document their keybindings in places easily reachable by normal users?
  657. # [23:09] * Quits: shans (~shanestep@113.197.106.249) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  658. # [23:10] <timeless> the only ones i can think of are google gmail/reader/news, and they don't do that, they randomly toss up a hint which is a link to them
  659. # [23:10] <zewt> thankfully they got rid of that "hint text" nonsense in gmail
  660. # [23:10] <zewt> that was horribly distracting
  661. # [23:10] <timeless> really?
  662. # [23:10] <jgraham> http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=179738
  663. # [23:11] <timeless> they recently added it to news
  664. # [23:11] <zewt> gone in mine, anyway
  665. # [23:11] <zewt> nothing worse than having mail open on a side monitor and having text periodically changing in it when you're trying to do something else
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  667. # [23:11] <jgraham> Dunno how easy that is to find, but searching for "google docs key" worked
  668. # [23:11] <timeless> jgraham: that doesn't count as easily reachable
  669. # [23:12] <timeless> i was trying to ask as in <from inside the app>
  670. # [23:12] <timeless> using google-search is very much outside of that
  671. # [23:12] <zewt> keyboard bindings are fundamentally hard because browser don't agree on keystroke namespaces--which keys are the browser's and which are the page's
  672. # [23:12] <jgraham> It's not really more outside the app than using the help menu is
  673. # [23:12] <timeless> and i'm more interested in *non*-google apps anyway
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  675. # [23:12] <jgraham> In a desktop application
  676. # [23:12] <zewt> though that's been slowly improving ... i think current opera actually got rid of *all* (?) alt- shortcuts (which I think was overkill)
  677. # [23:13] <jgraham> (which also has search these days)
  678. # [23:13] <timeless> jgraham: well
  679. # [23:13] <timeless> an app can have no help
  680. # [23:13] <zewt> and chrome has very few alt- shortcuts compared to ff/ie
  681. # [23:13] <timeless> and someone can write a "tips-and-tricks" book
  682. # [23:13] <timeless> i'm mostly asking whether apps generally document these things at all
  683. # [23:14] <timeless> (as opposed to third party documenters)
  684. # [23:14] <zewt> timeless: it's something they should take a hint from desktop apps for
  685. # [23:14] <zewt> the practice of putting keyboard shortcuts next to corresponding menu items is as clear as you can get
  686. # [23:15] <zewt> and avoids clutter, since it's only visible when you happen to have that menu open
  687. # [23:15] <zewt> and avoids the "go read the docs" syndrome (you shouldn't have to read a manual to know what shortcuts are)
  688. # [23:15] <zewt> (particularly important because nobody writes manuals :)
  689. # [23:16] <timeless> hey
  690. # [23:16] * timeless seems to recall having met someone who did
  691. # [23:16] <zewt> a UI that's intuitive enough to not need a manual is always better than any UI with a manual :P
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  693. # [23:17] * timeless ponders
  694. # [23:17] <zewt> of course, there's the fundamental problem that web apps don't have a standard UI like desktop apps do
  695. # [23:17] <zewt> which has a cost
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  709. # [23:41] <Philip`> On the subject of moaning about Google: I wish they didn't keep changing their search results to randomly different shades of blue, it's terribly distracting
  710. # [23:42] <aho> a/b test all the things! :v
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  713. # [23:48] <zewt> it's felt to me like there once was someone influential on the google search team who stood against making a mess of it, and that person left the team about a year or two ago
  714. # [23:49] <zewt> because all of a sudden they started going apeshit with distracting nonstop changes
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  724. # Session Close: Wed Sep 14 00:00:00 2011

The end :)