/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 17 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> scheib, try asking on a mailing list. It seems no one is around right now, probably because it's Friday afternoon.
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  19. # [00:20] <Hixie> is anyone who cares about acid3 around? i have an update available for review.
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  21. # [00:24] <smaug____> yes
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  143. # [04:09] <zewt> holy hell
  144. # [04:09] <zewt> opera stole my .ogg file extension
  145. # [04:10] <zewt> i thought the 90s file association wars were over :(
  146. # [04:11] <smaug____> nowadays it is usually more like "default browser" war
  147. # [04:11] <zewt> opera just landed dangerously close to quicktime in my mental software quality map
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  150. # [04:18] <zewt> maybe foobar forgot to grab it to begin with? dunno, very bizarre in any case (dear opera: you're a browser)
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  185. # [08:22] <annevk> ms2ger, hmm yeah, you'd need to have access to dev.w3.org
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  188. # [08:35] <annevk> Hixie, did you mean the suggestion about treating attributes starting with "on" specially? I suppose we could do that
  189. # [08:36] <Hixie> hm if that was the suggestion it sounds suboptimal
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  196. # [09:14] * annevk reads the original thread again
  197. # [09:15] <annevk> oh
  198. # [09:16] <annevk> Hixie, so TabAtkins mentioned MooTools which has a magic attribute called "events" which takes its own object
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  200. # [09:17] <annevk> though in his follow up he thought using magic on* was better...
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  204. # [09:25] <annevk> the other alternative was using another argument for it
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  216. # [10:21] <annevk> other problems with just object
  217. # [10:21] <annevk> they theoretically unordered
  218. # [10:21] <annevk> are*
  219. # [10:22] <annevk> but order is detectable for both attributes and event handlers
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  226. # [11:04] <annevk> I wonder, if we introduce new Text(); how much is the DOMString stuff needed?
  227. # [11:04] <annevk> do we want node.appendChild("test") / new Text("test") / both?
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  229. # [11:07] <annevk> I'm guessing all of it...
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  236. # [11:51] <annevk> Acid3 updated, let the DOM simplifications commence
  237. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> \o/
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  251. # [13:26] <rabbi1> where can i find good ajaxcrud, simple and explained .....
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  266. # [15:12] <llrcombs> well, I think it's That Time
  267. # [15:12] <llrcombs> IE10/Metro is removing plugin support, and it's really time to define One Codec to Rule Them All
  268. # [15:13] <Philip`> There's already plenty of One Codecs defined
  269. # [15:13] <llrcombs> Chrome and FF won't budge on open-source-only codecs no matter how hard anyone tries, so it seems that WebM should be the One Codec that all browsers support
  270. # [15:17] <Philip`> Someone should suggest that idea to Apple and Microsoft
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  302. # [18:16] <Hixie> annevk: hmm
  303. # [18:17] <Hixie> var e = Element.create('button', { name: 'command', value: 'search', disabled: true, onclick: function (event) { ... } }, 'Search');
  304. # [18:17] <Hixie> annevk: maybe just decide how it works based on the value of the entry in the dictionary
  305. # [18:18] <Hixie> annevk: string = set content attribute, boolean true = set content attribute to '', boolean false = do nothing, function = set a bubbling event listener for the entry's name minus 'on'?
  306. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> That sounds pretty magical
  307. # [18:19] <Hixie> the event handler part is, yeah
  308. # [18:19] <Hixie> dunno what else to do
  309. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> Passing an extra object for event handlers would be less magical, but probably also less convenient
  310. # [18:21] <Hixie> actually it wouldn't be that inconvenient, if it came before the array still
  311. # [18:21] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  312. # [18:21] <Hixie> so long as we can distinguish 'object' from Element/string/Array/Node
  313. # [18:22] <Hixie> that might be non-trivial in idl
  314. # [18:22] <Hixie> we should look at use cases, see exactly what it looks like
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  316. # [18:23] <zewt> Hixie: if it's a function, set the property by that name? avoids the "remove on" magic
  317. # [18:23] <Hixie> we don't want to be able to set arbitrary properties
  318. # [18:23] <Hixie> that has all kinds of weird side-effects
  319. # [18:24] <zewt> it'd be weird if "'onclick': func" didn't actually affect the onclick property
  320. # [18:24] <Hixie> e.g. consider Element.create('div', { innerHTML: function () { }, innerText: function () { } }, ['']);
  321. # [18:24] <zewt> eg. translating it to addEventListener("click", ...) and onclick ending up null would be weird
  322. # [18:24] <Hixie> yeah i agree that you want it affecting the 'onfoo's
  323. # [18:25] <Ms2ger> And we'll need to figure something out for the ordering as well
  324. # [18:26] <Hixie> we only need to worry about ordering if we allow arbitrary properties to be set
  325. # [18:26] <Hixie> which i recommend against
  326. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> Also for attributes
  327. # [18:27] <Hixie> why?
  328. # [18:27] <Hixie> the parser sets them and creates the element atomically
  329. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> That's fiction
  330. # [18:27] <Hixie> there's no order
  331. # [18:27] <Hixie> no it's not
  332. # [18:27] <Hixie> there's no way to detect the order
  333. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> There is
  334. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> element.attributes
  335. # [18:27] <Hixie> only in buggy browsers
  336. # [18:28] <Hixie> element.attributes should define its own order
  337. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> Right, the order in which they're set
  338. # [18:28] <Hixie> they're not set in an order
  339. # [18:30] <Philip`> Aren't there already lots of friendly DOM-wrapper APIs that could be copied from, instead of inventing something new?
  340. # [18:30] * Philip` doesn't know of any but doesn't see why they wouldn't exist if people cared about it
  341. # [18:31] <zewt> there was a list at the beginning of the thread, I think
  342. # [18:31] <zewt> jquery, etc
  343. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> jquery is hardly where I'd look for good API design
  344. # [18:35] <bga_> Hixie btw instead new Element(name, optMap) you can do more orthogonally - new Element(name)._extend({innerHTML: '...'})._on('click', _foo)
  345. # [18:36] <Hixie> (Element.create(), not new Element())
  346. # [18:36] <bga_> sorry
  347. # [18:36] <Hixie> chaining method calls seems a bit ugly to me
  348. # [18:36] <Hixie> but it's an option, certainly
  349. # [18:38] <bga_> Hixie but you can out {optMap} arg to _extend
  350. # [18:39] <bga_> c# has this init pattern iirc
  351. # [18:39] <Philip`> new Element("<button name='command' value='search' disabled onclick='...'>{caption}</button>", { "caption": "Search" }); - HTML already has a syntax for expressing DOM subtrees, it seems silly to invent a new one
  352. # [18:39] <Hixie> i don't see the advantage of Element.create('button').extend({name: 'foo'}).append('Submit'); over Element.create('button', {name: 'foo'}, 'Submit');
  353. # [18:40] <bga_> but it looks as new Foo(){a: 1, b: 2}
  354. # [18:40] <Hixie> Philip`: what you just proposed _is_ new syntax
  355. # [18:40] <zewt> Philip`: err, you certainly don't want to be writing JS functions inside blocks of text inside jS
  356. # [18:40] <zewt> JS
  357. # [18:40] <Hixie> Philip`: assuming the {caption} part is magical
  358. # [18:41] <Philip`> Only mildly magical, to make it do something that's not redundant with innerHTML
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  360. # [18:41] <zewt> well, string formatting is something that would be useful and that everyone keeps reinventing (though a different problem, of course)
  361. # [18:42] <Hixie> Philip`: how do you create an element whose contents are "a JS block is like {foo}." ?
  362. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> Of course it should be new Element("<button name='command' value='search' disabled onclick='...'>%s</button>" % ("Search",))
  363. # [18:42] <Hixie> Philip`: how do you programatically decide whether an attribute is set or not?
  364. # [18:42] <bga_> Philip` ie already has this syntax
  365. # [18:42] <Hixie> Philip`: how do you reference a function for event handlers?
  366. # [18:43] <Philip`> new Element("<button onclick={handler}>", {"handler":function(){...}) plus sufficient magic, or something
  367. # [18:43] <Hixie> Philip`: moving away from innerHTML is what this discussion is all about
  368. # [18:43] * Philip` notes that he hasn't read the discussion so he has no idea what the context is, and hasn't given this any non-trivial amount of thought
  369. # [18:43] <zewt> how do you add an attribute to the <button> definition programmatically?
  370. # [18:43] <Hixie> well if anne wants to spec an html parser in dom core, obviously i'll let him do it, but i am skeptical he'll want to :-)
  371. # [18:44] <Philip`> XML5 parser :-)
  372. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> I sure won't let him :)
  373. # [18:44] <bga_> Hixie advantage is you shouldnt copy if(optMap != null) this._extand(optMap) in every constructor
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  375. # [18:45] <bga_> orthogonallity
  376. # [18:45] <Hixie> bga_: why is that an advantage? a single pointer comparison is trivial in cost.
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  378. # [18:46] <Hixie> bga_: plus the whole point here is creating an element _with_ arguments, if you don't want arguments you can already do document.createElement('foo');
  379. # [18:46] <zewt> in principle, the whole "set this bundle of properties" thing could be detached from creation, if there's no real need for them to be atomic
  380. # [18:47] <zewt> createElement("a").set({href: "url"})
  381. # [18:47] <bga_> Hixie you can forget this magic line of code in some constructor. but main idea to move from new Point(x, y) to new Point(){x: x, y: y} form.
  382. # [18:48] <bga_> create element and set properties namely
  383. # [18:48] <Ms2ger> new Point({x: x, y: y}), I hope
  384. # [18:48] <zewt> ew
  385. # [18:49] <Hixie> bga_: if you want the JS language itself to change, I recommend bringing it up with the JS folk
  386. # [18:49] <zewt> (just an ugly example, a "point" constructor being the last thing you'd want that form for :)
  387. # [18:49] <Hixie> bga_: we're just proposing a new constructor within what JS already supports
  388. # [18:50] <bga_> Hixie ok. _extend()
  389. # [18:50] <bga_> or Ms2ger form
  390. # [18:50] <bga_> may be
  391. # [18:54] <Hixie> bga_: i still don't understand the advantage then
  392. # [18:57] <bga_> Hixie you want ta make same design bug as in Array#map, filter, some etc. each fn get context as last arg instead just force coder to use .bind if he want
  393. # [18:57] <Hixie> why is it a design bug?
  394. # [18:59] <bga_> you dont want to make obvious decomposition of functionality
  395. # [18:59] <bga_> fill object's properties is common task
  396. # [19:00] <Hixie> i have nothing against a generic syntax for filling an object's properties
  397. # [19:01] <Hixie> that's not what we're talking about here
  398. # [19:01] <Hixie> we're talking about a convenient constructor for creating an Element
  399. # [19:02] <bga_> ok
  400. # [19:02] <Hixie> i recommend bringing up the generic idea in the JS group
  401. # [19:02] <Hixie> if they add it, maybe we won't need a generic element constructor at all
  402. # [19:04] <jarek> not sure if I had understood your discussion correctly, but what's wrong with document.createElement()?
  403. # [19:04] <jarek> why add even more cruft to DOM?
  404. # [19:09] <Ms2ger> See the discussion on www-dom
  405. # [19:12] <Hixie> jarek: it's verbose
  406. # [19:13] <jarek> Hixie: it can be easily abstracted away with frameworks
  407. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> jarek, there's a list if you want to argue about the necessity
  408. # [19:14] <Hixie> jarek: why require that people use frameworks?
  409. # [19:17] <bga_> Hixie what do you think simple but strict(from oop view) about document.Div()? even w/o new
  410. # [19:17] <bga_> -about +about
  411. # [19:17] <Hixie> i don't understand the question
  412. # [19:18] <bga_> sorry. just document.Div() document.B()
  413. # [19:18] <jarek> are you planning to have spearate Element.createNS() constructor just like document.createElementNS()?
  414. # [19:19] <jarek> s/spearate/separate
  415. # [19:19] <Hixie> bga_: seems like it would mean a lot of constructors
  416. # [19:20] <bga_> document.Div(){id: 'foo'} if TC39 will accept this syntax
  417. # [19:20] <Hixie> jarek: no, iirc the proposal is to just support Element.create('foo'); for HTML, Element.create('svg:foo'); for SVG, and 'math:foo' for MathML.
  418. # [19:20] <bga_> Hixie but global scope already has alot of HTML*Element
  419. # [19:21] <Hixie> bga_: which don't map 1:1 to elements
  420. # [19:32] <jarek> what about E4X? Is it officially dead?
  421. # [19:33] <Hixie> unfortunately, seems that way.
  422. # [19:33] <Hixie> something like e4x would definitely be my preferred solution, personally
  423. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> brendan still objects to removing e4x from SpiderMonkey, IIRC
  424. # [19:35] <jarek> I doubt they will remove it from Firefox, this could break some extensions
  425. # [19:37] <Ms2ger> I've broken a lot of extensions, so that doesn't bother me much
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  490. # [23:27] <gsnedders> OTW, I'd be in favour of e4x too, but pretty much including an entire XML tokenizer into the JS parser is somewhat ugly
  491. # [23:29] <annevk> So yeah, the question is whether we can distinguish between arrays and objects...
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  493. # [23:31] <gsnedders> annevk: at what level?
  494. # [23:32] <annevk> IDL
  495. # [23:32] <annevk> method(string, object, object, array)
  496. # [23:32] <annevk> but you want these overloaded versions:
  497. # [23:32] <annevk> method(string, object, array)
  498. # [23:32] <annevk> method(string, array)
  499. # [23:33] <annevk> furthermore, array can also be DOMString
  500. # [23:33] <annevk> and ideally also a Node
  501. # [23:34] <annevk> object is always a JavaScript object
  502. # [23:34] <annevk> { ... }
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  504. # [23:34] <annevk> I guess you can technically do it, but maybe not without upsetting the JavaScript gods
  505. # [23:34] <gsnedders> At a JS level, you could just check whether Array.prototype is in the prototype chain, or whether it was created through the array constructor (through [[HasInstance]] or whatever)…
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  507. # [23:35] <annevk> I guess you can do the same for checking about it being a Node?
  508. # [23:35] <annevk> versus a {...} object?
  509. # [23:35] <gsnedders> But doing anything apart from treating arrays as if they were objects (which they are, they just have a different [[DefineOwnProperty]] which magically changes length) is evil.
  510. # [23:35] <gsnedders> annevk: Yeah.
  511. # [23:35] <gsnedders> Special-casing host objects is a lot less evil, too.
  512. # [23:35] <annevk> less evil?
  513. # [23:37] <gsnedders> Special-casing arrays v. other objects is evil.
  514. # [23:38] <gsnedders> {0: "a", 1: "b", 2: "c", length: 3} and ["a", "b", "c"] should be identical everywhere.
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  516. # [23:40] <annevk> I guess it depends on how you view it
  517. # [23:40] <gsnedders> As an ES guy. :)
  518. # [23:40] <gsnedders> I don't care about your silly host objects. :)
  519. # [23:40] <annevk> I mean you can treat them identical and still make this work
  520. # [23:41] <annevk> you just say it's method(string, optional object, optional object, optional object) and deal with the specifics in the definition
  521. # [23:42] <gsnedders> ewwwww.
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  523. # [23:44] <gsnedders> Just… just… forking based upon prototype chain or [[Class]] or [[HasInstance]] is evil, and only to be done when it's absolutely impossible to use generic objects.
  524. # [23:44] <gsnedders> (And that should be basically never, except when a host object deals with another host object)
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  526. # [23:47] <annevk> can just look at the keys of the object my man :)
  527. # [23:47] * annevk wants his convenient API damnit
  528. # [23:47] <Hixie> annevk: for the overloading, i think to do it you'd have to have a whole bunch of overloads, but you could do it
  529. # [23:48] <annevk> the magic properties could also work, but they are somewhat less appealing
  530. # [23:50] <gsnedders> annevk: And stop pretending I actually write ES, I just write testcases! :)
  531. # [23:51] <annevk> Hey you go around as the "ES guy" :p
  532. # [23:52] <gsnedders> No, that's farre :)
  533. # Session Close: Sun Sep 18 00:00:02 2011

The end :)