/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-21 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 21 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  4. # [00:04] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.88.124)
  5. # [00:04] * Quits: ChrisWilson (~Chris_Wil@216.178.108.111) (Quit: Leaving.)
  6. # [00:12] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-zeeojmsdyauxmsaf)
  7. # [00:17] * Quits: AlexNRoss (~AleossIRC@unaffiliated/aleoss) (Quit: We love you, Dark Continent! Good night!)
  8. # [00:17] <zewt> https://encrypted.google.com/ ... why is google drawing an arrow pointing at an empty space? heh
  9. # [00:18] <zewt> "dude, the corner of your monitor is pretty cool"?
  10. # [00:18] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@112-68-245-101f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  11. # [00:19] <jamesr> lawl
  12. # [00:19] <jamesr> i think that's where the google plus thingy shows up when you are logged in
  13. # [00:19] <jamesr> zewt: try google.com
  14. # [00:20] <jamesr> there's something there in the non-https version of that page
  15. # [00:20] <zewt> but i don't use google.com, i use encrypted.google.com
  16. # [00:20] <zewt> smells like poor testing practices for the front page of google's flagship product, heh :P
  17. # [00:21] <zewt> on google.com it points at "Web" (which is where you already are)
  18. # [00:22] <zewt> (and clicking it says "hey, you wasted your time clicking this since g+ is broken on gapps accounts")
  19. # [00:22] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: FireFly)
  20. # [00:23] * Joins: ChrisWilson (~Chris_Wil@216.178.108.111)
  21. # [00:23] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  22. # [00:25] <dglazkov> zewt: :D
  23. # [00:27] <zewt> D:
  24. # [00:28] * Quits: ChrisWilson (~Chris_Wil@216.178.108.111) (Quit: Leaving.)
  25. # [00:29] <dglazkov> don't be sad. sadness leads to poor digestion. poor digestion leads to fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. And more poor digestion.
  26. # [00:30] <zewt> i'd be less sad if google's main search page would stop intentionally distracting users from what they came to search for D:
  27. # [00:31] <zewt> i've never ran gdb and had it load pacman
  28. # [00:34] <dglazkov> zewt: I filed a bug -- does that make you feel a bit better? :)
  29. # [00:35] <zewt> on gdb asking for pacman? D:
  30. # [00:35] <dglazkov> sh> gdb
  31. # [00:35] <zewt> the frontpage stuff usually only lasts a couple days so it's sort of a self-expiring bug :)
  32. # [00:35] <dglazkov> > call pacman
  33. # [00:35] * Joins: ChrisWilson (~Chris_Wil@216.178.108.111)
  34. # [00:36] <dglazkov> ChrisWilson!!!
  35. # [00:37] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  36. # [00:39] <ChrisWilson> dglazkov!
  37. # [00:40] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  38. # [00:41] <dglazkov> ChrisWilson: I honestly don't know why I did that.
  39. # [00:43] * Joins: takkaria (~takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  40. # [00:54] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  41. # [00:55] <ChrisWilson> :P
  42. # [01:01] * Quits: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-zeeojmsdyauxmsaf) (Quit: jamesr)
  43. # [01:07] * Joins: doublec_ (~doublec@cd.pn)
  44. # [01:08] * Joins: gsnedder1 (~gsnedders@204.232.194.186)
  45. # [01:08] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@adsl-75-63-19-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  46. # [01:09] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (ZombieL@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  47. # [01:09] * Joins: lumely (~lumely@dhcp2-228.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp)
  48. # [01:12] * Quits: dglazkov (dglazkov@nat/google/x-jnjkqxeltwjcvpyd) (*.net *.split)
  49. # [01:12] * Quits: lumely_ (~lumely@dhcp2-228.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp) (*.net *.split)
  50. # [01:12] * Quits: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical) (*.net *.split)
  51. # [01:12] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@unaffiliated/eighty4) (*.net *.split)
  52. # [01:12] * Quits: doublec (~doublec@unaffiliated/doublec) (*.net *.split)
  53. # [01:12] * Quits: inimino (~inimino@boshi.inimino.org) (*.net *.split)
  54. # [01:12] * Quits: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj) (*.net *.split)
  55. # [01:12] * Quits: gsnedders (~gsnedders@204.232.194.186) (*.net *.split)
  56. # [01:13] <dbaron> TabAtkins, so by "concrete object" do you mean "box" or do you mean something else?
  57. # [01:13] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I was assuming you meant "box".
  58. # [01:13] * dbaron is wondering whether to introduce cement objects and bricks
  59. # [01:14] <jcranmer> cinder blocks
  60. # [01:15] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@unaffiliated/eighty4)
  61. # [01:16] * Joins: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj)
  62. # [01:17] * gsnedder1 is now known as gsnedders
  63. # [01:20] * Joins: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@cpe-68-175-61-233.nyc.res.rr.com)
  64. # [01:20] * Joins: inimino (~inimino@boshi.inimino.org)
  65. # [01:20] * Quits: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@cpe-68-175-61-233.nyc.res.rr.com) (Changing host)
  66. # [01:20] * Joins: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical)
  67. # [01:20] <dbaron> I should probably just unsubscribe from www-style.
  68. # [01:20] <dbaron> It's full of people arguing about things that nobody's even said or written down anywhere.
  69. # [01:23] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  70. # [01:26] * Joins: AlexNRoss (~AleossIRC@unaffiliated/aleoss)
  71. # [01:29] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net)
  72. # [01:32] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@adsl-75-63-19-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  73. # [01:32] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-203-136-181-177.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  74. # [01:33] <roc> just be selective about which threads you read
  75. # [01:37] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-203-136-181-177.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  76. # [01:37] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces2213.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  77. # [01:37] * doublec_ is now known as doublec
  78. # [01:38] * Quits: doublec (~doublec@cd.pn) (Changing host)
  79. # [01:38] * Joins: doublec (~doublec@unaffiliated/doublec)
  80. # [01:38] * Quits: stefan-_ (~music@wall.wi2.uni-trier.de) (Quit: Verlassend)
  81. # [01:39] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  82. # [01:40] * Quits: connrs (~connrs@conners.plus.com) (Quit: Going offline)
  83. # [01:41] * Quits: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj) (*.net *.split)
  84. # [01:42] * Quits: ChrisWilson (~Chris_Wil@216.178.108.111) (Quit: Leaving.)
  85. # [01:43] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@112-68-245-101f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  86. # [01:44] * Joins: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj)
  87. # [01:46] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-71-198-169-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  88. # [01:46] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96) (Remote host closed the connection)
  89. # [01:49] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  90. # [01:51] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5e011564.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  91. # [01:51] * Joins: ChrisWilson (~Chris_Wil@216.178.108.111)
  92. # [01:53] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@216.178.108.111) (Quit: Leaving.)
  93. # [01:55] * Joins: cygri_ (~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  94. # [01:58] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.102) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  95. # [01:59] * Quits: benjoffe (~benjoffe_@r49-2-10-185.cpe.vividwireless.net.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
  96. # [02:00] * Quits: cygri (~cygri@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  97. # [02:00] * cygri_ is now known as cygri
  98. # [02:02] <rniwa> sicking: yt?
  99. # [02:06] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.21.144) (Disconnected by services)
  100. # [02:07] * Joins: xCG (~CvP@123.49.21.144)
  101. # [02:07] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  102. # [02:07] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com)
  103. # [02:07] * xCG is now known as CvP
  104. # [02:07] <sicking> rniwa: pong
  105. # [02:09] <rniwa> sicking: hi
  106. # [02:09] <rniwa> sicking: do you have a time now?
  107. # [02:09] <sicking> rniwa: just about to head into a meeting, shouldn't be more than an hour, will you still be around?
  108. # [02:10] <rniwa> sicking: oh sure
  109. # [02:10] <rniwa> sicking: I'll probably be around 'til 6:30
  110. # [02:10] <rniwa> sicking: if not 7
  111. # [02:10] <sicking> cool
  112. # [02:10] <sicking> ping me at 6 if i haven't pinged you already
  113. # [02:10] <rniwa> sicking: ok
  114. # [02:12] * Quits: ChrisWilson (~Chris_Wil@216.178.108.111) (Quit: Leaving.)
  115. # [02:13] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  116. # [02:13] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  117. # [02:18] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:c4bf:9a06:9223:bf93)
  118. # [02:21] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-26f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  119. # [02:22] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  120. # [02:26] * Quits: robman (~robman@eth4584.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  121. # [02:33] * Quits: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj) (*.net *.split)
  122. # [02:33] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@70-36-138-150.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  123. # [02:33] * Quits: cygri (~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: cygri)
  124. # [02:34] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-191-44-19.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  125. # [02:38] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-hzlwcsuzqxmnvbst)
  126. # [02:38] * Joins: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj)
  127. # [02:39] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@12.201.85.26)
  128. # [02:40] <sicking> rniwa: back
  129. # [02:40] <rniwa> sicking: hi
  130. # [02:40] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@70-36-138-150.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  131. # [02:40] <rniwa> sicking: so I was sort of looking at the big picture of undoManager
  132. # [02:41] <rniwa> sicking: and I've started to think that maybe we've taken a wrong path in certain things
  133. # [02:41] <sicking> rniwa: oh?
  134. # [02:41] <rniwa> sicking: right now, we're going to have undoManger.automaticTransact and undoManager.manualTransact, right?
  135. # [02:41] <rniwa> sicking: and then we'll have two separate interfaces for those objects
  136. # [02:41] <sicking> yup
  137. # [02:42] <sicking> sort of
  138. # [02:42] <rniwa> sicking: but then, we'll need to expose those in []
  139. # [02:42] <sicking> i don't actually know that we need real interfaces
  140. # [02:42] <rniwa> sicking: that would mean that the return value of [] would either be Object
  141. # [02:42] <sicking> they're more like pure JS-objects
  142. # [02:42] <rniwa> sicking: or we have to define some AbstractInterface for it
  143. # [02:42] <sicking> rniwa: oh
  144. # [02:42] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@92.40.254.200.threembb.co.uk)
  145. # [02:43] <sicking> rniwa: i think it's fine to use Object. If we indeed even are going to use interfaces here at all
  146. # [02:43] <rniwa> sicking: but this would really ingrains the concept of automatic/manual transaction into undomnager
  147. # [02:43] <rniwa> sicking: in the sense, undo manager needs to know all
  148. # [02:43] <rniwa> sicking: in my original proposal, I tried to de-couple those concepts so that undomanager doesn't need to know anything about automatic transaction
  149. # [02:44] <rniwa> sicking: undomanager would just call apply, unapply, reapply
  150. # [02:44] <rniwa> sicking: which is nice from implementor's perspective
  151. # [02:44] <sicking> rniwa: hmm
  152. # [02:44] <rniwa> sicking: with current approach, we have to end up adding bindings for undoManger.automaticTransact and undoManager.manualTransact and then share code somehow
  153. # [02:44] <rniwa> sicking: because most of steps in those are identically equal
  154. # [02:44] <sicking> rniwa: i don't really care what's nice from an implementation perspective though. It's much more important to have a good API
  155. # [02:44] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  156. # [02:45] <sicking> rniwa: to a certain extent of course, it shouldn't be completely insane to implement
  157. # [02:45] <rniwa> sicking: in the sense the only difference between automaticTransact and manualTransact is how it calls apply
  158. # [02:45] <rniwa> sicking: or what object it takes
  159. # [02:46] <rniwa> sicking: so I've started to think that it might be better to provide an API that creates automatic transaction instead
  160. # [02:46] <rniwa> sicking: i.e. we'll have createAutomaticTransaction function or just new AutomaticTransaction
  161. # [02:46] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@adsl-99-35-226-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  162. # [02:46] <rniwa> sicking: that'll create an object with unapply/reapply functions given apply function
  163. # [02:46] <rniwa> (function names are pending)
  164. # [02:47] * Joins: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@adsl-99-35-226-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  165. # [02:47] <rniwa> sicking: this would allow us to have simple transact function again
  166. # [02:47] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  167. # [02:47] <sicking> rniwa: is there a reason to do this other than save a few lines of code in the implementation?
  168. # [02:47] <rniwa> sicking: I think this makes the interface conceptually simpler
  169. # [02:47] <sicking> rniwa: i think it's much more important to look at what's a good API from a usability point of view first
  170. # [02:47] <rniwa> sicking: because all transactions are just transactions
  171. # [02:48] <sicking> rniwa: what happens if someone calls reapply multiple times in a row on a automatic transaction?
  172. # [02:48] <sicking> rniwa: or unapply and then apply?
  173. # [02:49] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM1-113-125-15.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  174. # [02:49] <sicking> rniwa: hmm.. actually
  175. # [02:49] <rniwa> sicking: I guess it could ignore subsequence calls
  176. # [02:50] <sicking> rniwa: so how would this work, would createAutomaticTransaction run the "execution function"?
  177. # [02:50] <rniwa> sicking: no, it'll just create a transaction object
  178. # [02:51] <rniwa> sicking: e.g. you do undoManager.transact(createAutomaticTransaction(myCommand, 'typing'))
  179. # [02:51] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@adsl-99-35-226-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  180. # [02:51] * Joins: shetech (~shetech@c-76-126-167-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  181. # [02:51] <rniwa> sicking: in some sense, automaticTransact is a syntactic sugar for this
  182. # [02:51] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-191-44-19.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  183. # [02:51] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  184. # [02:51] <rniwa> sicking: but I found that having one function for doing things is better than having two
  185. # [02:52] <sicking> rniwa: from an implementation point of view, or from a usability point of view?
  186. # [02:52] <rniwa> sicking: e.g. this would allow author's script to pass transactions around
  187. # [02:52] <rniwa> sicking: from author's point of view as well
  188. # [02:52] <rniwa> sicking: so in the current design, you need to know whether you're creating an automatic transaction or manual transaction
  189. # [02:52] <rniwa> sicking: if you've just got a transaction object from some helper function
  190. # [02:52] <rniwa> sicking: e.g.
  191. # [02:53] <rniwa> sicking: var transaction = createMyTransaction(...);
  192. # [02:53] <sicking> that makes some sense i agree
  193. # [02:53] <rniwa> sicking: and then I wouldn't know whether I should call automaticTransact or manualTransact
  194. # [02:53] * Quits: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-hzlwcsuzqxmnvbst) (Quit: jamesr)
  195. # [02:53] <sicking> right
  196. # [02:53] <rniwa> sicking: if we have createAutomaticTransaction, then we can always call transact
  197. # [02:54] <sicking> rniwa: still is a lot to type every time you create a automatic transaction though :(
  198. # [02:54] <rniwa> sicking: yeah, that's one drawback
  199. # [02:54] <sicking> rniwa: i wonder if we can also add a helper function that does the work for you
  200. # [02:54] <rniwa> sicking: also it's harder to add properties in this syntax
  201. # [02:54] <sicking> rniwa: that's a good point
  202. # [02:54] <sicking> very good even
  203. # [02:55] <rniwa> sicking: yeah so I'm not sure which way is better at this point
  204. # [02:55] <sicking> rniwa: i think we can help with the typing by creating a helper function
  205. # [02:55] <sicking> rniwa: but the properties part is worse
  206. # [02:55] <rniwa> sicking: right.
  207. # [02:55] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@adsl-99-38-145-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  208. # [02:55] <rniwa> sicking: so one thing I was thinking is that we can make createAutomaticTransaction take some object
  209. # [02:55] <rniwa> sicking: and let the resultant transaction object retrieve all properties the original object had
  210. # [02:56] <rniwa> sicking: but that's a very strange object
  211. # [02:56] <sicking> rniwa: i.e. we can add a function like addAutomatic(func) { return this.transact(createAutomaticTransaction(func)) } to the interface
  212. # [02:56] <rniwa> sicking: yeah
  213. # [02:56] <sicking> rniwa: that sounds hacky
  214. # [02:56] <sicking> (the automatic copying that is)
  215. # [02:56] <rniwa> sicking: but I'm suspecting that many use cases of automatic transaction doesn't require adding new properties
  216. # [02:56] <sicking> rniwa: you'll loose things like the prototype chain
  217. # [02:56] <rniwa> sicking: right
  218. # [02:56] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  219. # [02:57] * Quits: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@adsl-99-35-226-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  220. # [02:57] <sicking> rniwa: which i believe Alex Russel really wants to use to be able to do things like manager.transact(new MyOwnTransactionClass(...));
  221. # [02:57] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@12.201.85.26) (Quit: Leaving.)
  222. # [02:57] <rniwa> sicking: on the other hand, we could have createAutomaticTransaction just add/assign unapply/reapply properties
  223. # [02:57] <rniwa> sicking: instead of creating of new object
  224. # [02:57] <rniwa> creating new
  225. # [02:58] <rniwa> sicking: yeah, that'll nice
  226. # [02:58] <rniwa> 'll be* nice
  227. # [02:58] * Quits: astearns (~anonymous@192.150.22.5) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  228. # [02:58] <sicking> having the DOM monkey-patch your objects seems somewhat unfortunate
  229. # [02:59] <rniwa> sicking: so if we'll have createAutomaticTransaction(x)=x but x will get extra properties
  230. # [02:59] <rniwa> sicking: yeah
  231. # [02:59] <rniwa> sicking: it's not particularly clean either
  232. # [02:59] <rniwa> sicking: alternatively, we could add "automatic" boolean to transaction object
  233. # [02:59] <rniwa> sicking: so instead of having two methods
  234. # [02:59] <rniwa> sicking: we'll just have a boolean that determines whether it's automatic or not
  235. # [03:00] <rniwa> sicking: in the object itself
  236. # [03:00] <sicking> rniwa: yeah, that seems ok
  237. # [03:00] <sicking> rniwa: i do like the idea of being able to return a transaction
  238. # [03:00] <rniwa> sicking: yeah
  239. # [03:00] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.18/20110621100037])
  240. # [03:00] <sicking> rniwa: but i *really* liked the syntax you guys had in your original email that came up with the transaction objects as they are now
  241. # [03:00] <rniwa> sicking: so we'll have undoManager.transact({apply:~~, automatic:true})
  242. # [03:01] <rniwa> sicking: which one?
  243. # [03:01] <sicking> rniwa: the one that introduced the syntax as it is now
  244. # [03:01] <rniwa> sicking: oh undoManager.transact({apply:~~, automatic:true}) ?
  245. # [03:02] <sicking> nono, much much earlier
  246. # [03:02] <sicking> nevermind, i think our irc'ing just crossed paths :)
  247. # [03:02] <sicking> rniwa: i like the automatic:true idea
  248. # [03:03] <sicking> rniwa: that seems like it would take care of the original use case
  249. # [03:03] <rniwa> sicking: mn... like undoManager.transact(new ManagedTransaction(...)) ?
  250. # [03:04] * Quits: fishd (darin@nat/google/x-ztkkaxfmmutwqzje) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  251. # [03:04] * Joins: roc_ (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  252. # [03:04] <sicking> you just lost me :)
  253. # [03:04] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:b075:6b11:968b:f5a1) (Quit: ap)
  254. # [03:05] * Joins: fishd_ (darin@nat/google/session)
  255. # [03:05] * Quits: fishd_ (darin@nat/google/session) (Changing host)
  256. # [03:05] * Joins: fishd_ (darin@nat/google/x-vqwowhaznpmswwwg)
  257. # [03:05] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@119.57.31.98) (Quit: kennyluck)
  258. # [03:05] <rniwa> sicking: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-August/032766.html ?
  259. # [03:05] <rniwa> sicking: ok
  260. # [03:06] <sicking> rniwa: what I'm saying is that the undoManager.transact({ apply: ..., automatic: true }) seems to solve the use case of having code like: transact = someFunctionThatGeneratesTransactions(); undoManager.transact(transact);
  261. # [03:06] <rniwa> sicking: yeah
  262. # [03:06] <rniwa> sicking: ok, I'll post something up on whatwg and make this change subsequently
  263. # [03:06] <rniwa> sicking: this will lets us just have one implicit interface
  264. # [03:06] <rniwa> sicking: and one transact
  265. # [03:06] <rniwa> :D
  266. # [03:07] <sicking> rniwa: yup. Might be good to come up with something shorter than "automatic" though. Maybe just "auto"?
  267. # [03:07] <sicking> i'll leave the bikeshedding to others :)
  268. # [03:07] <rniwa> sicking: yeah, auto works
  269. # [03:07] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  270. # [03:07] * roc_ is now known as roc
  271. # [03:07] <sicking> rniwa: also, i'm still not sold on apply+reapply. I still think just apply is better :)
  272. # [03:07] <sicking> with a boolean argument
  273. # [03:08] <rniwa> sicking: hmm.... I still make the same argument AryehGregor made and say booleans are bad
  274. # [03:08] <rniwa> sicking: I find a function that does both do & undo to be semantically hard to understand
  275. # [03:09] <rniwa> sicking: unfortunately, there are no good precedents for this because most of Undo API just provide functions for undo/redo
  276. # [03:09] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  277. # [03:09] <rniwa> sicking: and not the initial execution
  278. # [03:09] <sicking> rniwa: sure, i wouldn't propose to merge do/undo
  279. # [03:09] <rniwa> sicking: oops I meant do/redo
  280. # [03:09] <sicking> rniwa: booleans are bad on the callsite generally
  281. # [03:09] <rniwa> sicking: I'm not buying the idea that developers would duplicate code
  282. # [03:09] <rniwa> sicking: when he can just call apply
  283. # [03:09] <sicking> rniwa: but here the callsite is inside the browser code, so that's not a problem
  284. # [03:10] <sicking> rniwa: but he can't call apply, you brought up good reasons for why they should be slightly different
  285. # [03:10] <rniwa> sicking: also arv made an argument that booleans are hard to remember which one is which
  286. # [03:10] <sicking> rniwa: again, that's generally true on the caller side, not on the callee side
  287. # [03:10] <rniwa> sicking: so he can do reapply: function() { /* some work! */ this.apply(); }
  288. # [03:11] <sicking> rniwa: i don't think you can do selection like that
  289. # [03:11] <sicking> rniwa: also, look at the examples that you sent to the list, they all duplicated code
  290. # [03:11] <rniwa> sicking: or reapply: function() { this.apply(); /* some work */ }
  291. # [03:12] <rniwa> but should I define function(isApply) {...} or function(isReapply) {...}?
  292. # [03:13] <sicking> rniwa: Either way, it'll be obvious when you look at any example
  293. # [03:13] <sicking> rniwa: the problem with boolean arguments is that you can't tell on the caller side: apply(false)
  294. # [03:13] <sicking> rniwa: but on the callee side it's always documented using the variable name
  295. # [03:14] <sicking> rniwa: i'm also not convinced that the differences between apply/reapply are always so simple that you can implement them before and/or after
  296. # [03:14] <rniwa> sicking: so the argument was that it's hard to remember which boolean it was when you write the function for the first tie
  297. # [03:14] <rniwa> time*
  298. # [03:14] <sicking> though i'd have to think to come up with an example
  299. # [03:15] <sicking> rniwa: how would you do that without looking at docs or examples?
  300. # [03:15] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:c4bf:9a06:9223:bf93) (Quit: weinig)
  301. # [03:15] <rniwa> sicking: well, you probably remember it was undoManager
  302. # [03:15] <rniwa> sicking: and on firebug or developer console, you can see that it has transact method
  303. # [03:16] <rniwa> sicking: and maybe I'll vaguely remember it takes apply function
  304. # [03:16] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-ihrzfoztozcgeblt)
  305. # [03:16] <zewt> if that's a person's way of learning an api, they're going to get confused no matter what the type of the argument :)
  306. # [03:16] <rniwa> zewt: well, I almost always use developer tools to figure out property names, etc...
  307. # [03:16] <rniwa> zewt: too lazy to search
  308. # [03:17] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.88.124) (Quit: othermaciej)
  309. # [03:17] <rniwa> zewt: most of the times, properties I find do what their name suggest to do
  310. # [03:17] <rniwa> anyways
  311. # [03:17] <zewt> seems like a strange reason to abolish bools, heh
  312. # [03:17] <rniwa> zewt: I guess
  313. # [03:18] <zewt> if there was more info to send i'd suggest passing an object, like events, but that's a bit overkill if that's all there is
  314. # [03:18] <sicking> rniwa: i'm not convinced that it'll be easier to remember that there's both a "apply" and a "reapply" function, than to remember that it takes a isReapply boolean argument
  315. # [03:19] <rniwa> sicking: I've talked to a couple of developers internally and they told me they'd prefer apply/reapply simply because they don't like booleans
  316. # [03:19] <rniwa> sicking: but then they also told me they'll be fine with booleans
  317. # [03:19] <zewt> if an api made me provide two separate functions that are very similar, i'm pretty sure i'd quick patch it away so i don't have to deal with that
  318. # [03:20] <zewt> (i havn't looked closely enough to know why "apply" and "reapply" are separate concepts, though)
  319. # [03:20] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  320. # [03:20] * Quits: bga_|away (~bga@ppp78-37-240-254.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  321. # [03:20] <rniwa> zewt: if you don't supply reapply, it falls back to apply
  322. # [03:20] <zewt> ah
  323. # [03:20] <rniwa> zewt: apply is called when you call undoManager.transact
  324. # [03:20] <jamesr_> how's that better than having a bool? if authors forget about reapply, in both cases their apply() function is called
  325. # [03:20] <rniwa> zewt: reapply is called, well, when a user triggers redo
  326. # [03:21] <zewt> i guess as someone who's typed "int main(int argc, char *argv[])" a few thousand times, worrying about this seems minor :)
  327. # [03:21] <rniwa> zewt: I can never remember which comes first although I've been writing c programs over a decade
  328. # [03:21] <zewt> if i think about it i'd probably forget--i just let my fingers type it
  329. # [03:22] <zewt> digit coprocessors
  330. # [03:22] <rniwa> mn.. maybe I'll like it better if we renamed apply/reapply
  331. # [03:22] <rniwa> sicking: how about executeDo and executeUndo?
  332. # [03:23] <rniwa> sicking: or execute and executeUndo?
  333. # [03:23] <sicking> rniwa: i like apply/unapply/reapply better
  334. # [03:23] <rniwa> sicking: ?
  335. # [03:23] <rniwa> sicking: you like apply/unapply better?
  336. # [03:23] <sicking> rniwa: the names that is
  337. # [03:23] <rniwa> sicking: I think the problem is that apply appears to indicate that it's only called for the first time
  338. # [03:24] <sicking> rniwa: oh, i see
  339. # [03:24] <jamesr_> do/undo/redo?
  340. # [03:24] <sicking> rniwa: i generally try to stay out of naming issues
  341. # [03:24] <rniwa> jamesr: I think we want to get rid of redo function
  342. # [03:24] <sicking> :)
  343. # [03:24] <rniwa> jamesr: do/undo seems fine
  344. # [03:25] <rniwa> jamesr: but might be too generic?
  345. # [03:25] <rniwa> jamesr: we want to let duck type it so user may want to inherit from some other objects
  346. # [03:25] <zewt> do is a keyword :)
  347. # [03:25] <rniwa> zewt: oh that won't work :(
  348. # [03:25] <sicking> zewt: that's ok in ES5
  349. # [03:25] <sicking> rniwa: no, that's not a problem in ES5
  350. # [03:26] <rniwa> sicking: probably better to avoid it though
  351. # [03:26] <zewt> why is it okay, that sounds gross, heh
  352. # [03:26] <rniwa> sicking: you never know which JIT compiler has bugs
  353. # [03:26] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-lyyjbhjfofyxjmmk) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  354. # [03:26] <rniwa> sicking: good principle > i generally try to stay out of naming issues
  355. # [03:26] <rniwa> sicking: makes you productive :)
  356. # [03:27] <sicking> rniwa: we have functions called 'delete' in indexedDB
  357. # [03:27] <rniwa> sicking: oh dear
  358. # [03:28] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  359. # [03:28] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  360. # [03:31] * Quits: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  361. # [03:31] <rniwa> sicking: but I think the problem here is that do is defined by author
  362. # [03:31] <rniwa> sicking: so you'll writ something like undoManager.transact{do: funciton(redo) {..}, undo: funciton() {..})
  363. # [03:31] <rniwa> sicking: I guess it's fine in this simple case but might be annoying in more complicated case
  364. # [03:31] * Joins: robreact (~chatzilla@c-66-30-72-144.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  365. # [03:31] * Joins: bzed_ (~bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  366. # [03:31] <rniwa> sicking: how old is ES5 support among browsers?
  367. # [03:31] <rniwa> sicking: I don't want to make library author's life harder but I don't want to worry about backward compat. if it's form ages ago
  368. # [03:31] * bzed_ is now known as bzed
  369. # [03:31] <sicking> rniwa: JIT's don't matter here, only ecmascript parsers
  370. # [03:31] <sicking> rniwa: it was renamed from 'remove' to 'delete' based on developer input
  371. # [03:31] <sicking> rniwa: past the parser it's just strings
  372. # [03:31] <sicking> rniwa: one option would be to do both things
  373. # [03:31] <sicking> rniwa: have apply/reapply/unapply, pass a boolean argument to apply/reapply, and do the fallback to apply if reapply doesn't exist
  374. # [03:31] <sicking> rniwa: that way, if you have really different implementations between apply/reapply you can split it into two functions
  375. # [03:31] <sicking> rniwa: but if you don't, you can just add a few branches
  376. # [03:31] <sicking> s/but if you don't/but if the differences are small/
  377. # [03:31] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@75-37-194-175.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net)
  378. # [03:31] <rniwa> sicking: that's what I meant :)
  379. # [03:32] <rniwa> sicking: > parsers
  380. # [03:32] <dglazkov> zewt: ftfy https://encrypted.google.com/
  381. # [03:32] <rniwa> sicking: should have said engine*
  382. # [03:32] <sicking> hmm... seems like i have connectivity issues
  383. # [03:32] <sicking> rniwa: did you get my last message?
  384. # [03:32] <rniwa> sicking: yeah
  385. # [03:32] <rniwa> sicking: that might be a good idea
  386. # [03:32] <sicking> rniwa: the "s/but if you don't/but if the differences are small/" one?
  387. # [03:32] <rniwa> sicking: having both*
  388. # [03:33] <sicking> cool
  389. # [03:33] <rniwa> sicking: okay, let's do that for now
  390. # [03:33] <zewt> dglazkov: :D
  391. # [03:33] <sicking> rniwa: for what it's worth, if you do { "do": function(...) { ... } }, that will work even in ES3 parsers
  392. # [03:33] <rniwa> sicking: sorry about the delay in responses, I want to be more responsive but I've been blocked by regressions from my Apple-style-span removals
  393. # [03:33] <rniwa> sicking: oh that's a good point
  394. # [03:34] <rniwa> sicking: mn... come to think of it
  395. # [03:34] <rniwa> sicking: maybe we don't need automatic boolean
  396. # [03:34] <rniwa> sicking: maybe we should just rename apply for automatci function to execute
  397. # [03:34] <sicking> ok, gotta run, circus class!
  398. # [03:35] <rniwa> sicking: so that manual transaction would have apply(bool), unapply, and optionally reapply
  399. # [03:35] <rniwa> sicking: and automatic transactoin would have execute
  400. # [03:35] <rniwa> sicking: ah, ok.
  401. # [03:35] <rniwa> ttyl
  402. # [03:35] <sicking> rniwa: that might work too
  403. # [03:35] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@75-37-194-175.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net) (Client Quit)
  404. # [03:35] <rniwa> guess I'll post that on whatwg and see what others think
  405. # [03:37] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  406. # [03:37] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  407. # [03:37] * Joins: jdong__ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  408. # [03:38] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
  409. # [03:38] * Quits: jdong__ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (Client Quit)
  410. # [03:39] * Joins: jdong_ (~jdong@222.126.155.250)
  411. # [03:40] * Joins: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-9-217.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  412. # [03:45] * Quits: jdong_ (~jdong@222.126.155.250) (Remote host closed the connection)
  413. # [03:45] * Quits: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-ihrzfoztozcgeblt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  414. # [03:46] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-vouhisyprkmgbayw)
  415. # [03:48] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@adsl-99-38-145-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  416. # [03:48] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  417. # [03:50] * Quits: robreact (~chatzilla@c-66-30-72-144.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  418. # [03:53] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@92.40.254.200.threembb.co.uk) (Quit: micheil)
  419. # [03:57] * Quits: ojan (ojan@nat/google/x-bzwhcanxjcxplyvr) (Quit: ojan)
  420. # [04:04] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@adsl-99-38-145-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  421. # [04:07] * Quits: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-vouhisyprkmgbayw) (Quit: jamesr)
  422. # [04:17] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  423. # [04:31] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-28-227.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  424. # [04:32] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  425. # [04:34] * Joins: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-dcorfzoiwqpvuwlx)
  426. # [04:41] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@adsl-99-38-145-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  427. # [04:49] * Joins: ChrisWilson (~Chris_Wil@12.201.85.2)
  428. # [04:49] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@adsl-99-38-145-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  429. # [04:50] * Quits: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-dcorfzoiwqpvuwlx) (Quit: dave_levin)
  430. # [04:55] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  431. # [05:02] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  432. # [05:02] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  433. # [05:03] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-28-227.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  434. # [05:12] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: davidwalsh)
  435. # [05:16] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-fvghsijdcawewhfy) (Quit: rniwa)
  436. # [05:22] * Joins: robman (~robman@eth4853.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net)
  437. # [05:42] * Joins: nonge__ (~nonge@p5B3264CE.dip.t-dialin.net)
  438. # [05:46] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@173-11-70-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  439. # [05:46] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@p5B326ED6.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  440. # [05:48] * Joins: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  441. # [05:50] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  442. # [05:53] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-28-227.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  443. # Session Close: Wed Sep 21 05:59:27 2011
  444. #
  445. # Session Start: Wed Sep 21 05:59:27 2011
  446. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  447. # [05:59] * Disconnected
  448. # [06:00] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  449. # [06:00] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  450. # [06:00] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  451. # [06:00] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  452. # [06:10] * Quits: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj) (*.net *.split)
  453. # [06:10] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (*.net *.split)
  454. # [06:10] * Quits: annacc (Adium@nat/google/x-oiyiuavblwxhnmiz) (*.net *.split)
  455. # [06:10] * Quits: beverloo (beverloo@nat/google/x-mnxhwlqqgvdokonq) (*.net *.split)
  456. # [06:10] * Quits: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober) (*.net *.split)
  457. # [06:10] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:c82a:d739:d408:e751) (*.net *.split)
  458. # [06:10] * Quits: hoodow (~hoodow@pdpc/supporter/active/hoodow) (*.net *.split)
  459. # [06:10] * Quits: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net) (*.net *.split)
  460. # [06:10] * Quits: jamesr_ (jamesr@nat/google/x-uvfbeopqjrhateva) (*.net *.split)
  461. # [06:10] * Quits: ParadoX- (~para@hades.spexhost.com) (*.net *.split)
  462. # [06:10] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-28-227.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (*.net *.split)
  463. # [06:10] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@adsl-99-38-145-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (*.net *.split)
  464. # [06:10] * Quits: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-9-217.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
  465. # [06:10] * Quits: doublec (~doublec@unaffiliated/doublec) (*.net *.split)
  466. # [06:10] * Quits: asmodai (asmodai@h61194.upc-h.chello.nl) (*.net *.split)
  467. # [06:10] * Quits: mven_ (~mven__@169.241.49.57) (*.net *.split)
  468. # [06:10] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (*.net *.split)
  469. # [06:10] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (*.net *.split)
  470. # [06:10] * Quits: nw` (eero@heaven.unlink.org) (*.net *.split)
  471. # [06:10] * Quits: othree (~othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (*.net *.split)
  472. # [06:10] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (*.net *.split)
  473. # [06:10] * Quits: krijn (u2319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bloavqfrlmrrqohu) (*.net *.split)
  474. # [06:10] * Quits: toyoshim (~toyoshim@yuri.twintail.org) (*.net *.split)
  475. # [06:10] * Quits: ben_alman (~ben_alman@web126.webfaction.com) (*.net *.split)
  476. # [06:10] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@nishino.lvp-media.com) (*.net *.split)
  477. # [06:10] * Quits: ivan`` (~ivan@li125-242.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
  478. # [06:10] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
  479. # [06:10] * Quits: chayin (~quassel@61.14.141.36) (*.net *.split)
  480. # [06:10] * Quits: danheberden (~danheberd@li225-35.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
  481. # [06:10] * Quits: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu) (*.net *.split)
  482. # [06:10] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
  483. # [06:10] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@173-11-70-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (*.net *.split)
  484. # [06:10] * Quits: ChrisWilson (~Chris_Wil@12.201.85.2) (*.net *.split)
  485. # [06:10] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (*.net *.split)
  486. # [06:10] * Quits: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
  487. # [06:10] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-26f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
  488. # [06:10] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.21.144) (*.net *.split)
  489. # [06:10] * Quits: Dashiva (Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (*.net *.split)
  490. # [06:10] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-590c76d4.pool.mediaWays.net) (*.net *.split)
  491. # [06:10] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
  492. # [06:10] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (*.net *.split)
  493. # [06:10] * Quits: Rubennn (~quassel@apher.xlshosting.net) (*.net *.split)
  494. # [06:10] * Quits: kling (~kling@nat/trolltech/x-qwpvvzokryssrxbg) (*.net *.split)
  495. # [06:10] * Quits: payman (~payman@pat.se.opera.com) (*.net *.split)
  496. # [06:10] * Quits: hendry_ (~hendry@212.13.195.83) (*.net *.split)
  497. # [06:10] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (*.net *.split)
  498. # [06:10] * Quits: nlogax (~nlogax@unaffiliated/nlogax) (*.net *.split)
  499. # [06:10] * Quits: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122) (*.net *.split)
  500. # [06:10] * Quits: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-irtdnaauyqndyfmk) (*.net *.split)
  501. # [06:10] * Quits: manu-db (~msporny@digitalbazaar.com) (*.net *.split)
  502. # [06:10] * Quits: hasather (~davidh@pat-tdc.opera.com) (*.net *.split)
  503. # [06:10] * Quits: gwillen (~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen) (*.net *.split)
  504. # [06:10] * Quits: wirepair (fbi@random.supermario.org) (*.net *.split)
  505. # [06:10] * Quits: hsivonen (~hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi) (*.net *.split)
  506. # [06:10] * Quits: timb_ (~tim@bacon2.burri.to) (*.net *.split)
  507. # [06:10] * Quits: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib) (*.net *.split)
  508. # [06:10] * Quits: purefusion (~purefusio@unaffiliated/purefusion) (*.net *.split)
  509. # [06:10] * Quits: nonge__ (~nonge@p5B3264CE.dip.t-dialin.net) (*.net *.split)
  510. # [06:10] * Quits: krijnh (KtK@ip9135ee9d.speed.planet.nl) (*.net *.split)
  511. # [06:10] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@247.183.189.109.customer.cdi.no) (*.net *.split)
  512. # [06:11] * Quits: ralphholzmann (~ralph@li76-151.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split)
  513. # [06:11] * Quits: ryanseddon (u1832@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-egfarjcijxbuzwlr) (*.net *.split)
  514. # [06:11] * Quits: Scorchin (u1242@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-imprailhylshdqqs) (*.net *.split)
  515. # [06:11] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (*.net *.split)
  516. # [06:11] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (*.net *.split)
  517. # [06:11] * Quits: llrcombs (~llrcombs@64.130.210.214) (*.net *.split)
  518. # [06:11] * Quits: jarib_ (~jarib@109.74.192.179) (*.net *.split)
  519. # [06:11] * Quits: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical) (*.net *.split)
  520. # [06:11] * Quits: lumely (~lumely@dhcp2-228.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp) (*.net *.split)
  521. # [06:11] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (*.net *.split)
  522. # [06:11] * Quits: Russ_ (~quassel@nat/transgaming/x-jnasuwwmkphdlldn) (*.net *.split)
  523. # [06:11] * Quits: zewt (~x@c-24-62-196-44.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
  524. # [06:11] * Quits: salavas (~salavas@c83-248-102-83.bredband.comhem.se) (*.net *.split)
  525. # [06:11] * Quits: matjas (u2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mouyynmbsfsejxqa) (*.net *.split)
  526. # [06:11] * Quits: beowulf (u116@pdpc/supporter/professional/beowulf) (*.net *.split)
  527. # [06:11] * Quits: boblet (u1921@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-texhiyaflveynbku) (*.net *.split)
  528. # [06:11] * Quits: romainhuet (u2533@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-usqlzabvvnbjpznv) (*.net *.split)
  529. # [06:11] * Quits: jeremyselier (u2513@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qcnowvwfouzvbxyk) (*.net *.split)
  530. # [06:11] * Quits: reggna (~reggna@godis.olf.sgsnet.se) (*.net *.split)
  531. # [06:11] * Quits: tmzt (~tmzt@76.211.8.155) (*.net *.split)
  532. # [06:11] * Quits: Jedi_ (~Jedi@jedi.org) (*.net *.split)
  533. # [06:11] * Quits: nigelb (~nigel@ubuntu/member/nigelb) (*.net *.split)
  534. # [06:11] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@host-95-198-29-143.mobileonline.telia.com) (*.net *.split)
  535. # [06:11] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (*.net *.split)
  536. # [06:11] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (*.net *.split)
  537. # [06:11] * Quits: crash\ (bouncer@lubyte.de) (*.net *.split)
  538. # [06:11] * Quits: [tm]_ (~MikeSmith@sideshowbarker.net) (*.net *.split)
  539. # [06:11] * Quits: slightlyoff (u1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-awcwbdkhetklhqmf) (*.net *.split)
  540. # [06:11] * Quits: tellnes (~KrooniX@ec2-79-125-26-36.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com) (*.net *.split)
  541. # [06:11] * Quits: PrgmrBill (~PrgmrBill@unaffiliated/prgmrbill) (*.net *.split)
  542. # [06:11] * Quits: Hixie (~ianh@trivini.no) (*.net *.split)
  543. # [06:11] * Quits: jmb (~jmb@mail.parsifal.org.uk) (*.net *.split)
  544. # [06:11] * Quits: Moo^_- (~quassel@herd37.twinapex.fi) (*.net *.split)
  545. # [06:11] * Quits: TabAtkins (tabatkins@nat/google/x-gpbhmfoxpebamfeh) (*.net *.split)
  546. # [06:11] * Quits: robman (~robman@eth4853.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net) (*.net *.split)
  547. # [06:11] * Quits: AlexNRoss (~AleossIRC@unaffiliated/aleoss) (*.net *.split)
  548. # [06:11] * Quits: rillian (~giles@150.183.119.66.static.metrobridge.net) (*.net *.split)
  549. # [06:11] * Quits: niftylettuce (u2733@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rzmsjwklriozcecv) (*.net *.split)
  550. # [06:11] * Quits: benschwarz (u2121@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zvskklfiaylbqjzm) (*.net *.split)
  551. # [06:11] * Quits: broquaint (a52b469f90@78.47.79.137) (*.net *.split)
  552. # [06:11] * Quits: wilhelm (~wilhelm@trivini.no) (*.net *.split)
  553. # [06:11] * Quits: Workshiva (~Dashiva@74.125.57.33) (*.net *.split)
  554. # [06:11] * Quits: gnarf (~gnarf@unaffiliated/gnarf) (*.net *.split)
  555. # [06:11] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@ve.hsh6wjwx.vesrv.com) (*.net *.split)
  556. # [06:11] * Quits: esc_ (~esc-ape@84.inst-3.ufg.ac.at) (*.net *.split)
  557. # [06:11] * Quits: tomaw (tom@freenode/staff/tomaw) (*.net *.split)
  558. # [06:11] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijn@d54C02C64.access.telenet.be) (*.net *.split)
  559. # [06:11] * Quits: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250) (*.net *.split)
  560. # [06:11] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
  561. # [06:11] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74) (*.net *.split)
  562. # [06:11] * Quits: fishd_ (darin@nat/google/x-vqwowhaznpmswwwg) (*.net *.split)
  563. # [06:11] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net) (*.net *.split)
  564. # [06:11] * Quits: inimino (~inimino@boshi.inimino.org) (*.net *.split)
  565. # [06:11] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@unaffiliated/eighty4) (*.net *.split)
  566. # [06:11] * Quits: gsnedders (~gsnedders@204.232.194.186) (*.net *.split)
  567. # [06:11] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (*.net *.split)
  568. # [06:11] * Quits: takkaria (~takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (*.net *.split)
  569. # [06:11] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74) (*.net *.split)
  570. # [06:11] * Quits: Phae (u455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lgiswgncxmakdosn) (*.net *.split)
  571. # [06:11] * Quits: matijsb (u2278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pseqoipgkpagtyhs) (*.net *.split)
  572. # [06:11] * Quits: twisted` (~twisted@205.189.73.45) (*.net *.split)
  573. # [06:11] * Quits: theoros (~user@unaffiliated/theoros) (*.net *.split)
  574. # [06:11] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar) (*.net *.split)
  575. # [06:11] * Quits: Philip` (~philip@zaynar.co.uk) (*.net *.split)
  576. # [06:11] * Quits: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@firefox/community/qa/kbrosnan) (*.net *.split)
  577. # [06:11] * Quits: jgraham (~jgraham@web22.webfaction.com) (*.net *.split)
  578. # [07:07] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  579. # [07:08] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-df9be355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  580. # [07:40] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  581. # [07:52] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-df9be355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  582. # [08:17] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa20-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  583. # [08:25] * Quits: MrOpposite (~MrOpposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
  584. # [08:29] * Quits: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  585. # [08:46] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  586. # [08:50] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM1-112-85-135.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  587. # [08:51] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM1-113-125-15.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  588. # [08:51] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  589. # [08:57] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.240.217)
  590. # [09:31] * Joins: inimino (~inimino@boshi.inimino.org)
  591. # [09:43] * Joins: rtuin (~rtuin@D57D6C6A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl)
  592. # [09:48] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa20-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  593. # [09:57] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa20-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  594. # [09:58] * Joins: TabAtkins (tabatkins@nat/google/x-gpbhmfoxpebamfeh)
  595. # [09:58] * Joins: Moo^_- (~quassel@herd37.twinapex.fi)
  596. # [09:58] * Joins: jmb (~jmb@mail.parsifal.org.uk)
  597. # [09:58] * Joins: Hixie (~ianh@trivini.no)
  598. # [09:58] * Joins: PrgmrBill (~PrgmrBill@unaffiliated/prgmrbill)
  599. # [09:58] * Joins: tellnes (~KrooniX@ec2-79-125-26-36.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com)
  600. # [09:58] * Joins: slightlyoff (u1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-awcwbdkhetklhqmf)
  601. # [09:58] * Joins: [tm]_ (~MikeSmith@sideshowbarker.net)
  602. # [09:58] * Joins: crash\ (bouncer@lubyte.de)
  603. # [09:58] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  604. # [09:58] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  605. # [09:58] * Joins: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net)
  606. # [09:58] * Joins: hoodow (~hoodow@pdpc/supporter/active/hoodow)
  607. # [09:58] * Joins: jamesr_ (jamesr@nat/google/x-uvfbeopqjrhateva)
  608. # [09:58] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:c82a:d739:d408:e751)
  609. # [09:58] * Joins: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  610. # [09:58] * Joins: beverloo (beverloo@nat/google/x-mnxhwlqqgvdokonq)
  611. # [09:58] * Joins: annacc (Adium@nat/google/x-oiyiuavblwxhnmiz)
  612. # [09:58] * Joins: Jedi_ (~Jedi@jedi.org)
  613. # [09:58] * Joins: nigelb (~nigel@ubuntu/member/nigelb)
  614. # [09:58] * Joins: tmzt (~tmzt@76.211.8.155)
  615. # [09:58] * Joins: reggna (~reggna@godis.olf.sgsnet.se)
  616. # [09:58] * Joins: jeremyselier (u2513@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qcnowvwfouzvbxyk)
  617. # [09:58] * Joins: romainhuet (u2533@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-usqlzabvvnbjpznv)
  618. # [09:58] * Joins: boblet (u1921@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-texhiyaflveynbku)
  619. # [09:58] * Joins: beowulf (u116@pdpc/supporter/professional/beowulf)
  620. # [09:58] * Joins: matjas (u2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mouyynmbsfsejxqa)
  621. # [09:58] * Joins: salavas (~salavas@c83-248-102-83.bredband.comhem.se)
  622. # [09:58] * Joins: zewt (~x@c-24-62-196-44.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  623. # [09:58] * Joins: Russ_ (~quassel@nat/transgaming/x-jnasuwwmkphdlldn)
  624. # [09:58] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  625. # [09:58] * Joins: lumely (~lumely@dhcp2-228.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp)
  626. # [09:58] * Joins: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical)
  627. # [09:58] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244)
  628. # [09:58] * Joins: bezoar (~Adium@c-24-143-67-135.customer.broadstripe.net)
  629. # [09:58] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp78-37-240-254.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  630. # [09:58] * Joins: dirkpennings (~Vuurbal@90-145-26-140.bbserv.nl)
  631. # [09:58] * Joins: jgraham (~jgraham@web22.webfaction.com)
  632. # [09:58] * Joins: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@firefox/community/qa/kbrosnan)
  633. # [09:58] * Joins: Philip` (~philip@zaynar.co.uk)
  634. # [09:58] * Joins: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar)
  635. # [09:58] * Joins: twisted` (~twisted@205.189.73.45)
  636. # [09:58] * Joins: theoros (~user@unaffiliated/theoros)
  637. # [09:58] * Joins: matijsb (u2278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pseqoipgkpagtyhs)
  638. # [09:58] * Joins: Phae (u455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lgiswgncxmakdosn)
  639. # [09:58] * Joins: takkaria (~takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  640. # [09:58] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  641. # [09:58] * Joins: gsnedders (~gsnedders@204.232.194.186)
  642. # [09:58] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@unaffiliated/eighty4)
  643. # [09:58] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net)
  644. # [09:58] * Joins: fishd_ (darin@nat/google/x-vqwowhaznpmswwwg)
  645. # [09:58] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  646. # [09:58] * Joins: jdong_ (~quassel@222.126.155.250)
  647. # [09:58] * Joins: ukai (ukai@nat/google/x-ouairzrvtkmfmoft)
  648. # [09:58] * Joins: robman (~robman@eth4853.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net)
  649. # [09:58] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  650. # [09:58] * Joins: MrOpposite (~MrOpposit@c-84a7e253.5628737--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  651. # [09:58] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-590c74c8.pool.mediaWays.net)
  652. # [09:58] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.164)
  653. # [09:58] * Joins: purefusion (~purefusio@unaffiliated/purefusion)
  654. # [09:58] * Joins: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib)
  655. # [09:58] * Joins: timb_ (~tim@bacon2.burri.to)
  656. # [09:58] * Joins: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  657. # [09:58] * Joins: wirepair (fbi@random.supermario.org)
  658. # [09:58] * Joins: gwillen (~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen)
  659. # [09:58] * Joins: danheberden (~danheberd@li225-35.members.linode.com)
  660. # [09:58] * Joins: hsivonen (~hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi)
  661. # [09:58] * Joins: hasather (~davidh@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  662. # [09:58] * Joins: chayin (~quassel@61.14.141.36)
  663. # [09:58] * Joins: manu-db (~msporny@digitalbazaar.com)
  664. # [09:58] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
  665. # [09:58] * Joins: ivan`` (~ivan@li125-242.members.linode.com)
  666. # [09:58] * Joins: jarib_ (~jarib@109.74.192.179)
  667. # [09:58] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@nishino.lvp-media.com)
  668. # [09:58] * Joins: llrcombs (~llrcombs@64.130.210.214)
  669. # [09:58] * Joins: ben_alman (~ben_alman@web126.webfaction.com)
  670. # [09:58] * Joins: toyoshim (~toyoshim@yuri.twintail.org)
  671. # [09:58] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  672. # [09:58] * Joins: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122)
  673. # [09:58] * Joins: nlogax (~nlogax@unaffiliated/nlogax)
  674. # [09:58] * Joins: krijn (u2319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bloavqfrlmrrqohu)
  675. # [09:58] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  676. # [09:58] * Joins: othree (~othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  677. # [09:58] * Joins: nw` (eero@heaven.unlink.org)
  678. # [09:58] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  679. # [09:58] * Joins: hendry_ (~hendry@212.13.195.83)
  680. # [09:58] * Joins: payman (~payman@pat.se.opera.com)
  681. # [09:58] * Joins: ParadoX- (~para@hades.spexhost.com)
  682. # [09:58] * Joins: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  683. # [09:58] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  684. # [09:58] * Joins: kling (~kling@nat/trolltech/x-qwpvvzokryssrxbg)
  685. # [09:58] * Joins: Rubennn (~quassel@apher.xlshosting.net)
  686. # [09:58] * Joins: mven_ (~mven__@169.241.49.57)
  687. # [09:58] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  688. # [09:58] * Joins: asmodai (asmodai@h61194.upc-h.chello.nl)
  689. # [09:58] * Joins: Scorchin (u1242@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-imprailhylshdqqs)
  690. # [09:58] * Joins: ryanseddon (u1832@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-egfarjcijxbuzwlr)
  691. # [09:58] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  692. # [09:58] * Joins: ralphholzmann (~ralph@li76-151.members.linode.com)
  693. # [09:58] * Joins: Dashiva (Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
  694. # [09:58] * Joins: doublec (~doublec@unaffiliated/doublec)
  695. # [09:58] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.21.144)
  696. # [09:58] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  697. # [09:58] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@adsl-99-38-145-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  698. # [09:58] * Joins: nonge__ (~nonge@p5B3264CE.dip.t-dialin.net)
  699. # [09:58] * Joins: abarth (~abarth@173-164-128-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  700. # [09:58] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  701. # [09:58] * Joins: Ankheg (~Ankheg@91.224.77.4)
  702. # [09:58] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  703. # [09:58] * Joins: woef (~woef@91.183.84.141)
  704. # [09:58] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
  705. # [09:58] * Joins: connrs (~connrs@conners.plus.com)
  706. # [09:58] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
  707. # [09:58] * Joins: rillian (~giles@150.183.119.66.static.metrobridge.net)
  708. # [09:58] * Joins: niftylettuce (u2733@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rzmsjwklriozcecv)
  709. # [09:58] * Joins: benschwarz (u2121@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zvskklfiaylbqjzm)
  710. # [09:58] * Joins: broquaint (a52b469f90@78.47.79.137)
  711. # [09:58] * Joins: wilhelm (~wilhelm@trivini.no)
  712. # [09:58] * Joins: Workshiva (~Dashiva@74.125.57.33)
  713. # [09:58] * Joins: gnarf (~gnarf@unaffiliated/gnarf)
  714. # [09:58] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@ve.hsh6wjwx.vesrv.com)
  715. # [09:58] * Joins: esc_ (~esc-ape@84.inst-3.ufg.ac.at)
  716. # [09:58] * Joins: tomaw (tom@freenode/staff/tomaw)
  717. # [09:58] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijn@d54C02C64.access.telenet.be)
  718. # [09:59] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (ZombieL@c-a67170d5.010-25-736b7610.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  719. # [10:00] * Joins: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj)
  720. # [10:00] * MrOpposite is now known as Guest90123
  721. # [10:00] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: jamesr)
  722. # [10:00] -tomaw- [Global Notice] Sorry for the outage there, it seems one of our hubs had some issue. We've re-routed around it for now.
  723. # [10:00] * Quits: Guest90123 (~MrOpposit@c-84a7e253.5628737--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Changing host)
  724. # [10:00] * Joins: Guest90123 (~MrOpposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  725. # [10:00] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (ZombieL@c-a67170d5.010-25-736b7610.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Changing host)
  726. # [10:00] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (ZombieL@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  727. # [10:00] * Guest90123 is now known as MrOpposite
  728. # [10:02] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.164) (Remote host closed the connection)
  729. # [10:02] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  730. # [10:07] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@adsl-99-38-145-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  731. # [10:11] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa20-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  732. # [10:11] * Joins: jochen___ (jochen@nat/google/x-btwkjeiirsqbhkua)
  733. # [10:11] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193)
  734. # [10:12] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-odpexbdvbjuehnys) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  735. # [10:12] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
  736. # [10:14] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.164)
  737. # [10:15] * Joins: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au)
  738. # [10:15] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  739. # [10:29] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-146-244.adsl.inetia.pl)
  740. # [10:34] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  741. # [10:39] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-590c74c8.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
  742. # [10:41] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.20.245)
  743. # [10:43] * Joins: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162)
  744. # [10:47] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-71-198-174-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  745. # [10:47] * Joins: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@c-71-198-169-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  746. # [10:51] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-71-198-174-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  747. # [10:51] * Joins: cypha (~cypha@unaffiliated/cypha)
  748. # [10:52] * Quits: robman (~robman@eth4853.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  749. # [10:54] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  750. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-September/033136.html
  751. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-September/033257.html
  752. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> So does Opera support script onload?
  753. # [11:03] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  754. # [11:04] <bga_> small css proposal. resampling-filter: lanczos | bicubic | linear | ...
  755. # [11:07] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: hmm!
  756. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> I'd look at the code, but you guys are evil ;)
  757. # [11:09] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: seems my testing was bogus
  758. # [11:15] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.164) (Remote host closed the connection)
  759. # [11:22] <annevk> "hot mutato"
  760. # [11:23] * annevk is trying to work out the component model minutes
  761. # [11:28] <asmodai> Mmm, had SPDY been put forth for an IETF RFC by now (given how Mozilla added it to ff as well in recent builds)?
  762. # [11:28] <asmodai> s/had/has/
  763. # [11:31] <annevk> "(shouting match--declarative will be there)"
  764. # [11:31] <annevk> So far it seems sufficient people in the room were in favor of a trimmed XBL2
  765. # [11:36] <smaug____> I missed that meeting, but I was told that Mozilla and Apple had pretty similar ideas, and Google something a bit different
  766. # [11:37] <smaug____> Though, I think someone needs to still figure out sane event handling for shadow trees / bindings
  767. # [11:37] <annevk> From the minutes I just read on public-webapps that appears to be the case, yes
  768. # [11:37] <smaug____> (event retargeting is just quite error prone)
  769. # [11:38] <annevk> Mozilla/Apple participants want a trimmed XBL2; Google wants simpler JS libraries
  770. # [11:38] <annevk> The specifics were not nailed down
  771. # [11:38] <annevk> That is, all the hard questions are still there I guess :)
  772. # [11:38] <smaug____> indeed
  773. # [11:39] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-203-136-181-177.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  774. # [11:39] <annevk> I proposed a unconference session for TPAC
  775. # [11:39] <annevk> Maybe we can make some progress then...
  776. # [11:39] * smaug____ tries to not attend TPAC
  777. # [11:40] <smaug____> too much flying
  778. # [11:42] <woef> on rel="next" and rel="prev"
  779. # [11:42] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  780. # [11:42] <woef> Google says: "Send users to the most relevant page/URL—typically the first page of the series."
  781. # [11:43] <woef> Why would they do that and is there any way to step them from going through with it?
  782. # [11:53] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-203-136-181-177.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  783. # [11:54] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-203-136-181-177.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  784. # [11:56] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.88)
  785. # [11:58] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-203-136-181-177.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  786. # [12:03] * Joins: robman (~robman@eth4584.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net)
  787. # [12:07] * Joins: benjoffe_ (~benjoffe_@r49-2-10-185.cpe.vividwireless.net.au)
  788. # [12:07] * benjoffe_ is now known as benjoffe
  789. # [12:09] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net)
  790. # [12:18] * Quits: benjoffe (~benjoffe_@r49-2-10-185.cpe.vividwireless.net.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
  791. # [12:19] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  792. # [12:21] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.21.144) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  793. # [12:26] * Parts: MrOpposite (~MrOpposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) ("Leaving")
  794. # [12:41] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  795. # [12:45] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  796. # [12:49] * Joins: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  797. # [12:56] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-203-136-181-177.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  798. # [12:57] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  799. # [12:59] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces2213.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  800. # [13:02] <annevk> Curious to see whether this will have any effect: http://infrequently.org/2011/09/things-the-w3c-should-stop-doing/
  801. # [13:02] <annevk> Seems kind of pointless to suggest XML should be removed as it is unlikely to be removed from browsers, but overall it's a valid point
  802. # [13:03] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (ZombieL@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  803. # [13:11] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  804. # [13:13] * Joins: Neiluj (~Julien@195.200.175.214)
  805. # [13:13] <Neiluj> Hi
  806. # [13:15] <Neiluj> is there a plan to support other date/time format for inputs ? like <input type="time" format="time-hour:time-minute"/> or <input type="date" format="date-mday/date-month/date-fullyear"/> ?
  807. # [13:17] <annevk> do you mean UI-wise or submission-wise?
  808. # [13:17] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  809. # [13:17] <annevk> submission-wise: no
  810. # [13:18] <annevk> UI-wise: vague ideas exist
  811. # [13:18] <Neiluj> what means submission-wise ? what coming out from the form ?
  812. # [13:18] <annevk> yeah, what the server gets
  813. # [13:18] <Neiluj> ok, so no only UI-wise
  814. # [13:19] <annevk> we don't really have a good idea yet
  815. # [13:19] <annevk> at the moment UI is up to browsers
  816. # [13:20] <Neiluj> ok :)
  817. # [13:20] <Neiluj> hope it will come one day, thx :)
  818. # [13:20] <smaug____> hopefully browsers can pickup the "right" UI based on the page's language
  819. # [13:21] <smaug____> similarly to <input type="number"> handling
  820. # [13:21] <smaug____> (where decimal separator can be . or ,)
  821. # [13:21] <Neiluj> but what if the format is not about language convention, like not showing seconds for time inputs
  822. # [13:22] <smaug____> that is indeed some extra hint which UA should get from the page
  823. # [13:22] <annevk> Neiluj, that you can control already using step I think
  824. # [13:22] <annevk> well, showing is another matter I guess
  825. # [13:22] <Neiluj> annevk: indeed, with time, it's ok, that was for the example and that's a trick
  826. # [13:24] <Neiluj> thinking this may be some CSS property responsability actually...
  827. # [13:24] <annevk> on public-webapps@w3.org there is some discussion going on on how we want to allow developers to extend/replace elements with their own implementation
  828. # [13:25] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  829. # [13:25] <Neiluj> as it won't change the data but only the UI...
  830. # [13:44] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  831. # [13:55] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-nbkbvweqvtszjtkf)
  832. # [13:55] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-nbkbvweqvtszjtkf) (Changing host)
  833. # [13:55] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  834. # [13:56] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  835. # [13:57] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  836. # [13:58] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  837. # [13:58] * Quits: bga_|away (~bga@ppp78-37-240-254.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  838. # [14:03] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  839. # [14:03] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  840. # [14:06] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@adsl-76-199-97-3.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  841. # [14:08] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  842. # [14:09] * Joins: MrOpposite (~MrOpposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  843. # [14:16] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  844. # [14:19] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net)
  845. # [14:20] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  846. # [14:20] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  847. # [14:20] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  848. # [14:22] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces2213.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  849. # [14:24] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  850. # [14:27] * Quits: Ankheg (~Ankheg@91.224.77.4) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  851. # [14:39] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@195.24.233.121)
  852. # [14:42] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  853. # [14:44] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@195.24.233.121) (Quit: http://brandedcode.com | http://github.com/miksago)
  854. # [14:45] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98)
  855. # [14:45] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-146-244.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  856. # [14:49] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM111-191-211-68.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  857. # [14:52] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM1-112-85-135.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  858. # [14:52] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  859. # [14:53] <annevk> For everyone who wants to use Anolis with cross-specification cross-references, it's quite easy: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Anolis
  860. # [14:55] * Joins: cygri (~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  861. # [14:59] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y230056.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  862. # [15:01] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  863. # [15:01] * Joins: Ankheg (~Ankheg@91.224.77.4)
  864. # [15:02] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  865. # [15:07] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  866. # [15:07] <annevk> http://shiki.esrille.com/2011/09/es-acid1.html seems Shiki is writing a browser in ECMAScript and it now passes Acid1
  867. # [15:07] <annevk> that's pretty neat
  868. # [15:11] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@adsl-76-199-97-3.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  869. # [15:11] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  870. # [15:16] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.22.150)
  871. # [15:16] * Quits: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162) (Quit: mishunov)
  872. # [15:19] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  873. # [15:24] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  874. # [15:24] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-smzqepqcfhrxntgj)
  875. # [15:24] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-smzqepqcfhrxntgj) (Changing host)
  876. # [15:24] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  877. # [15:25] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  878. # [15:25] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-drizpblugkqofwlb)
  879. # [15:25] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-drizpblugkqofwlb) (Changing host)
  880. # [15:25] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  881. # [15:28] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  882. # [15:31] * Joins: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-9-217.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  883. # [15:33] * Joins: Kellen` (~Kellen@194.17.8.94)
  884. # [15:34] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  885. # [15:35] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@195.24.233.121)
  886. # [15:41] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.22.150) (Disconnected by services)
  887. # [15:41] * Joins: xCG (~CvP@123.49.20.114)
  888. # [15:41] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  889. # [15:42] * xCG is now known as CvP
  890. # [15:42] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  891. # [15:42] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  892. # [15:51] * Joins: lumely_ (~lumely@dhcp2-228.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp)
  893. # [15:51] * Quits: lumely (~lumely@dhcp2-228.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  894. # [15:56] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (ZombieL@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  895. # [15:59] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.20.114) (Quit: [ UPP ] > all)
  896. # [15:59] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  897. # [15:59] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (Excess Flood)
  898. # [16:03] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  899. # [16:07] * Quits: Ankheg (~Ankheg@91.224.77.4) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  900. # [16:07] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  901. # [16:08] * Joins: rillian_ (~giles@mist.thaumas.net)
  902. # [16:09] <rillian_> foolip, we're not having a meeting now, right?
  903. # [16:10] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  904. # [16:10] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (Excess Flood)
  905. # [16:10] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  906. # [16:10] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (Excess Flood)
  907. # [16:11] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@195.24.233.121) (Quit: micheil)
  908. # [16:13] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  909. # [16:19] * rillian_ guesses not
  910. # [16:20] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  911. # [16:21] * Joins: benjoffe (~benjoffe_@r49-2-10-185.cpe.vividwireless.net.au)
  912. # [16:27] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  913. # [16:30] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@195.24.233.121)
  914. # [16:32] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  915. # [16:42] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  916. # [16:43] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  917. # [16:48] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@host-95-199-14-53.mobileonline.telia.com)
  918. # [16:49] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@host-95-199-14-53.mobileonline.telia.com) (Client Quit)
  919. # [16:49] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@host-95-199-14-53.mobileonline.telia.com)
  920. # [16:52] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  921. # [16:57] * Quits: rillian_ (~giles@mist.thaumas.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  922. # [17:01] * Parts: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  923. # [17:02] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  924. # [17:03] * Quits: Kellen` (~Kellen@194.17.8.94) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  925. # [17:06] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  926. # [17:07] * Quits: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-9-217.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  927. # [17:09] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Quit: Verlassend)
  928. # [17:09] * Quits: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
  929. # [17:10] * Quits: rtuin (~rtuin@D57D6C6A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  930. # [17:15] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  931. # [17:15] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  932. # [17:19] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  933. # [17:20] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  934. # [17:24] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
  935. # [17:26] * Quits: shetech (~shetech@c-76-126-167-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  936. # [17:29] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces2213.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  937. # [17:31] * Joins: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  938. # [17:34] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-28-227.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  939. # [17:38] <annevk> oh Björn had his spiel again about XMLHttpRequest not having a test suite
  940. # [17:38] <annevk> trololol
  941. # [17:40] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  942. # [17:42] <hsivonen> I thought you wrote a test suite for XHR
  943. # [17:43] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.106)
  944. # [17:43] <annevk> yeah Ms2ger pointed that out
  945. # [17:43] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-71-202-136-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  946. # [17:48] <smaug____> oh, test suites
  947. # [17:49] <smaug____> I need to look at my notes about invalid EventSource tests
  948. # [17:49] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@host-95-199-14-53.mobileonline.telia.com) (Quit: tomasf)
  949. # [17:50] <smaug____> annevk: but in any case, thanks for writing tests!
  950. # [17:50] <annevk> smaug____, they've been around for a year now...
  951. # [17:51] <smaug____> xhr and eventsource?
  952. # [17:51] <smaug____> do you happen to have tests for xhr.timeout already?
  953. # [17:51] <smaug____> (someone is implementing that)
  954. # [17:52] <annevk> I have not written tests for any of the new features and I don't think I should
  955. # [17:52] <annevk> It's bad to write both the spec and the tests
  956. # [17:53] <smaug____> true
  957. # [17:55] * Quits: dirkpennings (~Vuurbal@90-145-26-140.bbserv.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  958. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> annevk, so what should I recommend instead of replaceWholeText?
  959. # [18:02] * Joins: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-9-217.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  960. # [18:04] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
  961. # [18:05] * Joins: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70)
  962. # [18:05] <annevk> Ms2ger, parentNode.normalize() and then setting data?
  963. # [18:06] <annevk> or maybe just say to use textContent
  964. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> Takk
  965. # [18:09] <annevk> graag gedaan
  966. # [18:11] * Joins: shetech (~shetech@12.234.36.130)
  967. # [18:12] <karlcow> http://www.onderhond.com/blog/work/rel-next-prev-google
  968. # [18:12] * Quits: shetech (~shetech@12.234.36.130) (Client Quit)
  969. # [18:15] * Quits: woef (~woef@91.183.84.141) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  970. # [18:16] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.164)
  971. # [18:17] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  972. # [18:18] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-cwicsockfauvesyn)
  973. # [18:20] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  974. # [18:20] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193) (Quit: Leaving)
  975. # [18:22] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@205.248.100.252)
  976. # [18:22] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@205.248.100.252)
  977. # [18:22] <zewt> "verbose"
  978. # [18:23] <annevk> also seems like what Google is doing is the whole point behind having such attribute values
  979. # [18:23] <annevk> that you can offer different UI
  980. # [18:25] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-cwicsockfauvesyn) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  981. # [18:25] * Quits: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl) (Read error: No route to host)
  982. # [18:26] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  983. # [18:27] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  984. # [18:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: ooh, second time an "assistant-resolved" bug got escalated :-)
  985. # [18:31] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  986. # [18:32] <annevk> oh hey
  987. # [18:32] <annevk> deadline coming up
  988. # [18:32] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-mftoonfkxnnyywny)
  989. # [18:32] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0162.html
  990. # [18:32] <annevk> sort of forgot about that
  991. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> Only 175 for HTML5
  992. # [18:35] <annevk> 30 bugs to WONTFIX per day :p
  993. # [18:37] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.164) (Remote host closed the connection)
  994. # [18:39] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  995. # [18:40] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  996. # [18:41] * Parts: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  997. # [18:42] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@2002:55e5:d95e:0:71d9:af4a:e009:409b)
  998. # [18:42] * Joins: rabbi1 (~manjunath@49.200.68.74)
  999. # [18:42] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Client Quit)
  1000. # [18:47] * Joins: KolakCC (~KolakCC@unaffiliated/kolakcc)
  1001. # [18:51] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-203-136-181-177.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1002. # [18:52] * Quits: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1003. # [18:53] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  1004. # [18:53] * Quits: manu-db (~msporny@digitalbazaar.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.1.19/20110430173934])
  1005. # [18:54] * Joins: manu-db (~msporny@digitalbazaar.com)
  1006. # [18:54] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:91ee:987a:a0da:e276)
  1007. # [18:55] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-ytnjfmooymlosrkm)
  1008. # [18:55] <annevk> noticed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13684 (on event handlers and DOM Events) while looking through those bugs; been meaning to write about that so that was nice
  1009. # [18:58] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  1010. # [18:59] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@205.248.100.252) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1011. # [19:00] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  1012. # [19:04] <annevk> Oh, it's already text/vtt I see
  1013. # [19:07] <zewt> i sort of like the idea of dropping "web" from webvtt, simply because there's nothing about it that's web-specific, and having "web" in there could (minorly) hinder adoption
  1014. # [19:08] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-mftoonfkxnnyywny) (Quit: KillerX)
  1015. # [19:08] <zewt> only casually, though, it's already had one name change
  1016. # [19:08] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.93.245)
  1017. # [19:10] <zewt> (on the other hand, "vtt" is slightly less googlable than "webvtt")
  1018. # [19:10] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-uhzslmjwirnntnmh)
  1019. # [19:11] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  1020. # [19:11] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Excess Flood)
  1021. # [19:13] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-zccnlpkhxuzsdfjw)
  1022. # [19:13] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@nat/canonical/x-zccnlpkhxuzsdfjw) (Changing host)
  1023. # [19:13] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  1024. # [19:15] <annevk> zewt, we could still call it WebVTT (although I don't think it's a good idea to prefix specifications with random words such as "X" or "Web"), just not have "Web" become an intrinsic part of the format
  1025. # [19:16] <zewt> if it's baked into the name of the spec, that's what people will call it, so the file header probably doesn't matter much at that point
  1026. # [19:17] <zewt> well, i guess what people end up calling it is out of our hands--if people name the files *.vtt they may call it "vtt" no matter what we do
  1027. # [19:17] <Hixie> annevk: I wanted the signature to be "WEBVTT FILE", it's already been reduced to "WEBVTT". I don't think we should go down even further.
  1028. # [19:18] * ap_ is now known as ap
  1029. # [19:19] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-71-202-136-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  1030. # [19:20] <annevk> I guess in the end it's just another string, like XMLHttpRequest
  1031. # [19:20] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.155.184)
  1032. # [19:21] <annevk> (Not that WEBVTT is that bad ;))
  1033. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> WEBVtt?
  1034. # [19:22] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-212f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  1035. # [19:22] <zewt> WEBVtt to represent a file format name WebVTT? that's a mind-bender :)
  1036. # [19:22] <zewt> named
  1037. # [19:23] <annevk> hey you can now search in Google+
  1038. # [19:23] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@205.248.100.252)
  1039. # [19:24] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  1040. # [19:25] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: jarek)
  1041. # [19:28] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp78-37-240-254.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  1042. # [19:28] * Quits: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-9-217.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: astearns)
  1043. # [19:29] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.88) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1044. # [19:33] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  1045. # [19:34] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1046. # [19:39] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  1047. # [19:41] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.155.184) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1048. # [19:42] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  1049. # [19:42] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Excess Flood)
  1050. # [19:44] * Quits: rabbi1 (~manjunath@49.200.68.74) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1051. # [19:46] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  1052. # [19:46] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  1053. # [19:46] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Excess Flood)
  1054. # [19:48] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.155.184)
  1055. # [19:48] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  1056. # [19:48] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Excess Flood)
  1057. # [19:49] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  1058. # [19:50] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:c82a:d739:d408:e751) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  1059. # [19:54] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.155.184) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1060. # [19:55] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:8143:37e5:8975:c971)
  1061. # [19:55] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  1062. # [19:59] * Joins: astearns (~anonymous@192.150.22.5)
  1063. # [20:02] * Quits: connrs (~connrs@conners.plus.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1064. # [20:02] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  1065. # [20:03] * Joins: zdobersek1 (~zan@cpe-90-157-128-73.dynamic.amis.net)
  1066. # [20:04] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.240.217) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1067. # [20:04] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-dmyvkoexvcqejoom)
  1068. # [20:05] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.23.106) (Disconnected by services)
  1069. # [20:05] * Joins: xCG (~CvP@123.49.20.69)
  1070. # [20:05] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:8143:37e5:8975:c971) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1071. # [20:05] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:8143:37e5:8975:c971)
  1072. # [20:06] * xCG is now known as CvP
  1073. # [20:06] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  1074. # [20:06] * Joins: cying_ (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  1075. # [20:06] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:8143:37e5:8975:c971) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1076. # [20:08] * Joins: connrs (~connrs@conners.plus.com)
  1077. # [20:08] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1078. # [20:08] * cying_ is now known as cying
  1079. # [20:09] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-uhzslmjwirnntnmh) (Quit: KillerX)
  1080. # [20:11] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1081. # [20:11] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.88)
  1082. # [20:11] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net)
  1083. # [20:13] * Joins: rabbi1 (~manjunath@49.200.68.74)
  1084. # [20:14] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96)
  1085. # [20:18] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-28-227.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  1086. # [20:19] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-146-244.adsl.inetia.pl)
  1087. # [20:20] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-aauxirzvreippsli)
  1088. # [20:20] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-aauxirzvreippsli) (Client Quit)
  1089. # [20:20] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@acces2213.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  1090. # [20:21] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-lvwvpxribzxsticm)
  1091. # [20:23] * Quits: connrs (~connrs@conners.plus.com) (Quit: Going offline)
  1092. # [20:23] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com)
  1093. # [20:23] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10)
  1094. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> So it looks like style="border-width: initial; border-color: initial" is unremovable via CSSOM in WebKit.
  1095. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> . . .
  1096. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22border-width%3A%20initial%3B%20border-color%3A%20initial%22%3E%3C%2Fblockquote%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Avar%20div%20%3D%20document.querySelector(%22div%22)%3B%0Adiv.style.borderWidth%20%3D%20%22%22%3B%0Adiv.style.removeProperty(%22border-width%22)%3B%0Adiv.style.removeProperty(%22borderWidth%22)%3B%0Adelete%20div.style.borderWidth%3B%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
  1097. # [20:26] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@2620:149:4:1b01:f964:79b8:8417:a429)
  1098. # [20:28] * Quits: Neiluj (~Julien@195.200.175.214) (Quit: Neiluj)
  1099. # [20:29] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:8143:37e5:8975:c971)
  1100. # [20:31] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:8143:37e5:8975:c971) (Client Quit)
  1101. # [20:32] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb_)
  1102. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68551
  1103. # [20:35] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  1104. # [20:36] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@205.248.100.252) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
  1105. # [20:38] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1106. # [20:39] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:8143:37e5:8975:c971)
  1107. # [20:39] <GlitchMr> I would like to see ignoring CAPS LOCK state while using <input type=password>. Caps Lock usually does nothing good on those fields and is annoying :P (because you don't see you write with other case).
  1108. # [20:39] <GlitchMr> But then, some might use passwords full of uppercase letters...
  1109. # [20:39] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  1110. # [20:40] <zewt> just mimic WinXP's "AWOOGA AWOOGA you've got caps lock on" tooltip on top of password boxes (if there was a way to detect it, of course)
  1111. # [20:40] <GlitchMr> I don't think you could check Caps Lock state using JS
  1112. # [20:40] <zewt> thus if there was :)
  1113. # [20:41] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1114. # [20:41] <GlitchMr> Of course you could write passwords in database in lowercase or just try two passwords with each login (specified password and letter case flipped password), but that would lower the security.
  1115. # [20:41] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  1116. # [20:41] <zewt> (some might argue that showing something like that is the browser's job, though I think that would be a bit visually invasive for browsers to do on every site)
  1117. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> GlitchMr, doesn't IE10 alert you if your caps lock key is on when you're typing in password inputs?
  1118. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> All browsers should just do that.
  1119. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> It's only sensible.
  1120. # [20:44] <GlitchMr> Makes sense...
  1121. # [20:45] * Joins: mkanat (mkanat@nat/google/x-mxqdrwxifjxgwswp)
  1122. # [20:46] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  1123. # [20:51] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-191-211-68.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1124. # [20:52] * Quits: rabbi1 (~manjunath@49.200.68.74) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1125. # [20:53] * Joins: dave_levin (dave_levin@nat/google/x-aoaesmmiglarjijh)
  1126. # [20:57] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-137-75.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  1127. # [20:57] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.90.178)
  1128. # [20:59] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-zdixdgybltatypsh)
  1129. # [21:05] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  1130. # [21:06] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  1131. # [21:08] * Joins: ojan (ojan@nat/google/x-adamoitnszrbhrnu)
  1132. # [21:08] * Quits: nonge__ (~nonge@p5B3264CE.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  1133. # [21:09] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p5B3264CE.dip.t-dialin.net)
  1134. # [21:10] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  1135. # [21:11] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.90.178) (Quit: othermaciej)
  1136. # [21:13] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.90.178)
  1137. # [21:14] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.90.178) (Client Quit)
  1138. # [21:15] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.90.178)
  1139. # [21:19] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.93.245) (Quit: miketaylr)
  1140. # [21:21] * Joins: divya (~divyam@c-24-18-47-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  1141. # [21:21] <RobbertAtWork> GlitchMr: Some people have learned to type using caps lock for any sequence of two or more uppercase letters
  1142. # [21:35] * Quits: bga_|away (~bga@ppp78-37-240-254.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1143. # [21:36] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp78-37-251-135.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  1144. # [21:36] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  1145. # [21:41] * Joins: mattur (mattur@host-92-13-194-183.as43234.net)
  1146. # [21:44] * gwillen is now known as gwillen[unemploy
  1147. # [21:45] * gwillen[unemploy is now known as gwillen
  1148. # [21:46] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  1149. # [21:47] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Client Quit)
  1150. # [21:49] * Quits: divya (~divyam@c-24-18-47-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1151. # [21:49] * Joins: divya (~divyam@c-24-18-47-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  1152. # [21:55] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  1153. # [22:01] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1154. # [22:02] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@205.248.100.252)
  1155. # [22:05] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com)
  1156. # [22:05] * Quits: divya (~divyam@c-24-18-47-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1157. # [22:06] * Joins: timeless (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless)
  1158. # [22:11] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1159. # [22:14] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-146-244.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1160. # [22:15] <ojan> TabAtkins: yt? i'm trying to figure out what to do w/ height:auto on a vertical flexbox.
  1161. # [22:16] <ojan> TabAtkins: vertical writing-mode shrinkwraps using the initial containing block as the height
  1162. # [22:17] <ojan> TabAtkins: it seems like we should do the same for flexbox
  1163. # [22:20] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  1164. # [22:21] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  1165. # [22:30] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-ytnjfmooymlosrkm) (*.net *.split)
  1166. # [22:30] * Quits: KolakCC (~KolakCC@unaffiliated/kolakcc) (*.net *.split)
  1167. # [22:30] * Quits: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj) (*.net *.split)
  1168. # [22:31] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-590c64b0.pool.mediaWays.net)
  1169. # [22:36] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  1170. # [22:37] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  1171. # [22:37] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.20.245) (Quit: nn)
  1172. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> ojan, here
  1173. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> I agree.
  1174. # [22:40] <ojan> TabAtkins: on further thought, i'm going to propose to the wg that the writing-mode spec change
  1175. # [22:40] <ojan> TabAtkins: and i think flexbox should match
  1176. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> kk
  1177. # [22:42] <ojan> TabAtkins: i'll post shortly...but basically, if there is an available height for a height:auto flexbox, i think we should fill it instead of shrinkwrapping
  1178. # [22:42] <ojan> TabAtkins: only shrinkwrap in the case of not having an available height and in that case, shrinkwrap using the height of the initial containing block
  1179. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> Oh, so <div height=300px><vbox height=auto>...</vbox></div> would make the vbox 300px tall?
  1180. # [22:45] * tomaw is now known as 5EXAAAB0J
  1181. # [22:45] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-ytnjfmooymlosrkm)
  1182. # [22:45] * Joins: KolakCC (~KolakCC@unaffiliated/kolakcc)
  1183. # [22:45] * Joins: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj)
  1184. # [22:45] * 5EXAAAB0J is now known as tomaw
  1185. # [22:45] <mkanat> As a developer, that's what I'd expect from height:100%, not from height: auto.
  1186. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> ojan: ^^^?
  1187. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> mkanat: I agree, if that's the behavior he's referring to.
  1188. # [22:47] <ojan> TabAtkins: it makes height consistent w/ width
  1189. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> ojan: But height isn't consistent with width in general. If you're embedding a vbox into a block element, I'd expect height:auto to work like height:auto does for any other element.
  1190. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> (We need the 'fill' value for width/height which gives you the width:auto behavior explicitly, which we could then also use with height.)
  1191. # [22:51] * Joins: arv (arv@nat/google/x-goylsyboktjbhvwk)
  1192. # [22:52] * Joins: ako (~nya@fuld-590c7c8e.pool.mediaWays.net)
  1193. # [22:53] * Joins: kns (~kns@192.100.104.17)
  1194. # [22:54] * Parts: kns (~kns@192.100.104.17) ("Leaving")
  1195. # [22:54] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@205.248.100.252) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1196. # [22:55] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-590c64b0.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1197. # [23:05] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:358b:77b2:9021:3de9)
  1198. # [23:11] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1199. # [23:15] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
  1200. # [23:19] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  1201. # [23:28] * Quits: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-dmyvkoexvcqejoom) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  1202. # [23:28] * Joins: othermattur (mattur@host-92-13-205-70.as43234.net)
  1203. # [23:28] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:358b:77b2:9021:3de9) (*.net *.split)
  1204. # [23:28] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-ytnjfmooymlosrkm) (*.net *.split)
  1205. # [23:28] * Quits: KolakCC (~KolakCC@unaffiliated/kolakcc) (*.net *.split)
  1206. # [23:28] * Quits: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj) (*.net *.split)
  1207. # [23:29] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  1208. # [23:29] * Quits: mattur (mattur@host-92-13-194-183.as43234.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1209. # [23:30] <annevk> "At the workshop today"
  1210. # [23:30] <annevk> what workshop?
  1211. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> The schema.org workshop, presumably.
  1212. # [23:31] * jgraham can no longer keep up with all the semi-secret meetings
  1213. # [23:31] <Hixie> you're not missing anything
  1214. # [23:31] <Hixie> (from the whatwg perspective anyway)
  1215. # [23:33] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1216. # [23:33] <Hixie> can someone teach me what a singular transform matrix's implications are?
  1217. # [23:34] <Hixie> wikipedia's math pages are inpenetrable
  1218. # [23:35] <jgraham> A simular matrix doesn't have an inverse, so I guess once loses information e.g. by mapping points from an area onto a line
  1219. # [23:36] * jgraham doesn't know if that is helpful
  1220. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> Hixie, it has derivative zero. It's not invertible. Geometrically, it multiplies areas by zero, so in two dimensions, it maps planes to points or lines.
  1221. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> Anything specific you want to know?
  1222. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> Singular vs. invertible is one of the basic differences you can have with matrices, so there are tons of things to say about it.
  1223. # [23:37] * tomaw is now known as 5EXAAAB0J
  1224. # [23:37] <Hixie> if you have a plane and your transform it by a singular matrix, where is the resulting point or line?
  1225. # [23:38] <Hixie> i guess it's got zero thickness so it doesn't matter
  1226. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> Right.
  1227. # [23:38] <Hixie> i'm trying to work out why browsers can't just implement the spec with singular matrices, instead needing some special text for them
  1228. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> If it's a regular 2x2 matrix, it will map the plane to either the origin or a line through the origin. If it's an augmented matrix, it transforms affinely instead of linearly, so the point or line can be anywhere.
  1229. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> What exactly constitutes "singular" when your matrix's values are floating-points is nonobvious.
  1230. # [23:39] * 5EXAAAB0J is now known as tomaw
  1231. # [23:39] <dbaron> by derivative, AryehGregor meant determinant
  1232. # [23:39] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah that's why i was hoping there'd be a nice way to not answer the question
  1233. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> So I did. How embarrasing.
  1234. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> embarrassing.
  1235. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Anyway, your questions have veered into the highly practical, so I don't think my expertise will be of much use.
  1236. # [23:40] <Hixie> hah
  1237. # [23:40] <dbaron> I think it really depends on the wording of the spec whether it needs to make a special case for singular matrices
  1238. # [23:41] <dbaron> likewise for code
  1239. # [23:41] <dbaron> but there are some things where it's certainly unavoidable
  1240. # [23:41] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  1241. # [23:41] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:358b:77b2:9021:3de9)
  1242. # [23:41] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-ytnjfmooymlosrkm)
  1243. # [23:41] * Joins: KolakCC (~KolakCC@unaffiliated/kolakcc)
  1244. # [23:41] * Joins: jennb (jennb@nat/google/x-xfagvrahkhmzoktj)
  1245. # [23:41] <dbaron> like if we add an API for getting "coordinates in the space of element A" to "... of element B"
  1246. # [23:42] <dbaron> if there's a singular transform between them, then there's no answer to the question in one direction (except for a narrow set of points) and lots of answers the other way
  1247. # [23:42] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  1248. # [23:43] <dbaron> likewise, there are a bunch of algorithms that have a "divide by the determinant" step, which doesn't work so well when it's 0. Usually such algorithms don't make any sense to apply to singular transforms anyway.
  1249. # [23:43] <dbaron> Hixie, ^
  1250. # [23:43] <Hixie> yeah
  1251. # [23:43] <dbaron> but the spec still needs to say what it does (return 0, throw exception, etc.)
  1252. # [23:44] <Hixie> well luckily for me i don't think i have anything that returns points or divides anything by anything
  1253. # [23:44] <Hixie> however
  1254. # [23:44] * Joins: brucel (~brucel@cpc4-smal11-2-0-cust879.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
  1255. # [23:44] * Joins: ayo (~nya@fuld-590c601a.pool.mediaWays.net)
  1256. # [23:44] <Hixie> people have nonetheless asked the question
  1257. # [23:44] <dbaron> (e.g., when animating transforms, the fallback case is to decompose the matrix and animate the pieces -- and the decomposition algorithm doesn't work on singular matrices)
  1258. # [23:45] <dbaron> asked the question about what?
  1259. # [23:45] <Hixie> "what should happen if you have a singular transformation matrix"
  1260. # [23:46] <Hixie> e.g. if you call c.scale(0,1); and then c.fill(); with a path
  1261. # [23:46] <dbaron> ah, so these are questions about canvas
  1262. # [23:46] <dbaron> I think that's easy: nothing.
  1263. # [23:47] * Quits: ako (~nya@fuld-590c7c8e.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1264. # [23:48] <dbaron> though if the path was set *before* the scale...?
  1265. # [23:48] <Hixie> the path is non-zero
  1266. # [23:48] <dbaron> (does the scale affect it?)
  1267. # [23:48] <Hixie> the fill is all that is scaled
  1268. # [23:48] <dbaron> hmmm, I don't remember canvas well enough to discuss this intelligently
  1269. # [23:49] <hober> istm the canvas spec should align with the 2d/3d css transforms specs
  1270. # [23:50] <Hixie> if img1 is a mostly green image, in webkit, this is a mostly green rectangle:
  1271. # [23:50] <Hixie> c.beginPath(); c.rect(100,100,100,100); c.fillStyle = c.createPattern(img1, 'repeat');
  1272. # [23:50] <Hixie> c.scale(0.000000000000000000000000000000000001,1);
  1273. # [23:50] <Hixie> c.fill();
  1274. # [23:50] <Hixie> but if i add one "0" to that number, it no longer paints anything.
  1275. # [23:51] <Hixie> because repeating a zero-width image across the plane doesn't make much sense
  1276. # [23:51] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  1277. # [23:51] <Hixie> but what about if the fill is a color?
  1278. # [23:51] * Quits: othermattur (mattur@host-92-13-205-70.as43234.net)
  1279. # [23:52] <jamesr_> if it does nothing, does the globalCompositeOperation still apply?
  1280. # [23:52] <jamesr_> if i do c.globalCompositeOperation="copy"; c.scale(0,1); makePath(c); c.fill();
  1281. # [23:52] <jamesr_> is my canvas now empty?
  1282. # [23:53] <Hixie> not in webkit
  1283. # [23:53] <Hixie> however
  1284. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> If we had perfect precision, all this stuff would be well-defined. But some things suddenly behave differently at determinant zero compared to determinant epsilon, and there's no difference with floating-point . . .
  1285. # [23:53] <Philip`> I think the reason the spec doesn't return points or divide anything by anything is that it doesn't actually define the algorithms to render things (which can do those things)
  1286. # [23:54] * Joins: mattur (mattur@host-92-13-205-70.as43234.net)
  1287. # [23:54] <Hixie> if you set it to c.scale(0.000000000000000000000000000000000001,1);
  1288. # [23:54] <Hixie> then it is empty
  1289. # [23:54] <Hixie> so there's a difference between c.scale(0.000000000000000000000000000000000001,1);, c.scale(0.00000000000000000000000000000000001,1);, and c.scale(0.00000000000000000000000000000000000,1);
  1290. # [23:55] <Hixie> that is, c.scale(1e-36,1);, c.scale(1e-37,1); and c.scale(0,1);
  1291. # [23:55] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, i was just noticing that nothing actually says how fill() paints a repeating pattern
  1292. # [23:55] <Philip`> Sound like FLT_MIN
  1293. # [23:55] <Philip`> *Sounds
  1294. # [23:57] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1295. # Session Close: Thu Sep 22 00:00:00 2011

The end :)