/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 22 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> Philip` or zewt or anyone who might know: how does EBS pricing work if you maintain the volume for less than an integer number of months? It doesn't say whether they round or what.
  8. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> At least that I see.
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  11. # [00:15] <zewt> they measure it in "GB-months", which I think means to multiply by the amount of time, eg. 2 GB for two weeks is one GB-month
  12. # [00:16] <zewt> (don't use a petabyte of storage and blame me for the billing if I'm wrong, though)
  13. # [00:17] <Hixie> that sounds equivalent to saying that they average the disk usage over each month
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  15. # [00:18] <zewt> i regularly create large temporary volumes for things and delete them after a day or two; i'm sure they don't take the maximum or anything like that
  16. # [00:20] <Hixie> i wonder how often they sample
  17. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> They're providing block devices, not filesystems, so they don't have to sample. They can just record the creation and destruction times of each volume.
  18. # [00:25] <annevk> http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/kn327/wifes_ipad_i_just_wanted_to_play_angry_birds/ hahaha
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  29. # [00:38] <Philip`> AryehGregor: http://serverfault.com/questions/197379/amazon-ebs-charges-calculation says hourly
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  69. # [01:53] <zewt> annevk: could use your input on the FileReader.abort() thread; i think treating XHR as precedent for Progress Events behavior would make a serious mess of every API using it in the future
  70. # [01:53] <zewt> also i have to tab twice to get to you; curse you, annacc
  71. # [01:53] <annacc> zewt: huh? what'd I do?
  72. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> Aw man, good thing I haven't had to talk to annevk yet today. ^_^
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  89. # [02:29] <jamesr_> Hixie, the behavior you described above (scale(0.00001) does a different thing in WebKit w.r.t. globalCompositeOperation than scale(0)) is just a webkit bug
  90. # [02:29] <jamesr_> in fact it'd be great if you could file that
  91. # [02:29] <jamesr_> ben wells has been fixing a lot of our GCO canvas bugs in webkit
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  195. # [09:34] <zcorpan> http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?782709-Fire-HTML5-validation-onblur - author experience with WF2
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  207. # [10:20] <annevk> zewt, I noticed that thread, and decided I rather play Gears of War than look into it
  208. # [10:20] <annevk> I guess I should now though
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  230. # [10:44] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: would be nice if http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/approved/base64.html tested argument type conversion, like null, undefined, 1, {toString:function(){return "foo"}}
  231. # [10:46] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: oh, seems it tests undefined already, but not null
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  244. # [11:16] <annevk> zewt, replied
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  254. # [11:50] <annevk> zewt, btw, you had some other proposals for changing event handling in XHR as well right?
  255. # [11:50] <annevk> zewt, I should prolly get to those
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  263. # [12:20] <annevk> http://joehewitt.com/post/web-technologies-need-an-owner/ obvious troll is obvious?
  264. # [12:23] <annevk> according to brucel it's not
  265. # [12:23] <annevk> glad he has no idea how to get there then :p
  266. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> "I can easily see a world in which Web usage falls to insignificant levels compared to Android, iOS, and Windows, and becomes a footnote in history. "
  267. # [12:24] <annevk> "Let's face facts: the Web will never be the dominant platform."
  268. # [12:25] <annevk> most people browse the web on their computer...
  269. # [12:26] <Rik`> it seems a very mobile oriented vision
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  272. # [12:36] <jgraham> annevk: I thought the distressing thing was "It would help if all the rendering engines but one were to die"
  273. # [12:37] <annevk> yeah not really sure why that piece of writing gets attention
  274. # [12:37] <annevk> guess software monocultures are gaining popularity again
  275. # [12:37] <annevk> yearning for IE6
  276. # [12:38] <Rik`> annevk: maybe also because of the person writing it?
  277. # [12:39] <jgraham> Based on the fact that he is a person on the internet I will wildly speculate that he is a free market libertarian (that could just be vocal people on reddit/hacker news/slashdot/etc. though). Which makes the position that less competition would improve things a bit strange.
  278. # [12:39] * Quits: cygri (~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: cygri)
  279. # [12:40] <annevk> Rik`, he's famous?
  280. # [12:40] <Rik`> annevk: creator of Firebug
  281. # [12:40] <jgraham> And one of the original Firefox leads
  282. # [12:40] <annevk> I see
  283. # [12:41] <hsivonen> where could I find a list of Opera releases and their release dates?
  284. # [12:41] <jgraham> http://www.opera.com/docs/history/
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  286. # [12:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks. oops. I already had a look at that page and failed to scroll to the right part...
  287. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> annevk: I seem to remember him writing something in a similar vein a year or two ago
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  291. # [12:49] <annevk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/24374884@N08/6171485113/
  292. # [12:49] <annevk> hahaha
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  295. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: nice
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  297. # [12:53] <hsivonen> so Joe Hewitt would like to have Chromium as the only Web platform impl?
  298. # [12:54] <hsivonen> while Chromium is shipping ActiveG--a competitor for the Web Platform
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  301. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> I think one of the hallmarks of these kinds of postings are their complete lack of any humor
  302. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> well, intentional humor at least
  303. # [12:58] <Rik`> also, with ChromeOS, Boot2Gecko, Windows8 and others, the web is gaining pretty cool capabilities "in a timely manner"
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  305. # [12:59] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-xbl-intents
  306. # [12:59] <hsivonen> Rik`: well, B2G and Windows 8 aren't shipping products yet
  307. # [13:00] <annevk> I would love it btw if someone could tweak the templates of the blog some more
  308. # [13:00] <annevk> and then especially the links to other posts
  309. # [13:00] <annevk> they should appear at the bottom
  310. # [13:00] <annevk> and all the metadata for an individual post could be trimmed a lot too
  311. # [13:00] <Rik`> also, when we see something like PhoneGap to bring those capabilities to simply cross platform development
  312. # [13:01] <annevk> I guess I can do it myself
  313. # [13:01] <Philip`> "[it] is impossible to create a platform with a coherent, unified vision the way Apple has with Cocoa or the way Python has with Guido" - Python created Guido? That sounds like it would involve interestingly paradoxical time travel
  314. # [13:01] <hsivonen> PhoneGap doesn't run code from the Web, though
  315. # [13:01] <Rik`> *simplify
  316. # [13:02] <jgraham> Philip`: import timetravel
  317. # [13:02] <Rik`> hsivonen: you can run code from the web but that will result in a bad user experience
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  319. # [13:03] <hsivonen> Rik`: surely not on iOS?
  320. # [13:03] <Rik`> hum yes you can
  321. # [13:03] <Rik`> since you are using Apple JS engine
  322. # [13:04] <hsivonen> Rik`: does Apple let you run remote JS code if you use Apple's JS engine?
  323. # [13:04] <Rik`> I think so
  324. # [13:04] <hsivonen> do you then have to embed the whole WebKit?
  325. # [13:05] <hsivonen> can you call PhoneGap's device APIs from remote code?
  326. # [13:05] <Rik`> I've met some people creating apps with Phonegap and they had no problem to put those on the App store
  327. # [13:06] <hsivonen> Rik`: are you sure there isn't a PhoneGap part and an embedded WebKit that doesn't have PhoneGap APIs inside the PhoneGap part?
  328. # [13:06] <hsivonen> Rik`: if Apple let people run remote code using JSC but without WebKit, it would be a huge loophole in their lock-down policy
  329. # [13:07] <Rik`> I don't know the exact details
  330. # [13:07] <hsivonen> details matter :-)
  331. # [13:07] <Rik`> but people running remote code mostly create Phonegap apps to have them listed in the store, not really for the extra capabilities
  332. # [13:08] <tomasf> JSC isn't a public API on iOS
  333. # [13:08] <hsivonen> I'm quite sad that people treat the lack of a unified store front on the Web as a bug
  334. # [13:08] <hsivonen> tomasf: well, then
  335. # [13:09] <Rik`> anyway, my first point was about the existence of Phonegap and similar systems to use web technologies
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  339. # [13:13] <annevk> he works on Firefox first, then suggests standardizing on Chromium, something which did not exist when Firefox was there
  340. # [13:13] <annevk> i mean what the fuck
  341. # [13:13] <annevk> i don't even see how any of this makes sense to him
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  344. # [13:15] <karlcow> it doesn't make sense. at all.
  345. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> sure it does
  346. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> one browser engine, one person to make all the decisions
  347. # [13:16] <karlcow> maybe in a dadaist way.
  348. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> that's one way to describe it, I guess
  349. # [13:16] <karlcow> I tried to follow the web is not the web but it is the web but it is not the web.
  350. # [13:17] <karlcow> and I have been lost
  351. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> that's Gertrude Stein you're quoting, man
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  354. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> this seems more like the Futurists who aligned themselves with Mussolini
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  356. # [13:24] <hsivonen> is http://mobilehtml5.org/ right about not having CORS checked for Firefox for Android?
  357. # [13:24] <hsivonen> or File API
  358. # [13:24] <annevk> wc?
  359. # [13:25] <hsivonen> wc??
  360. # [13:26] <annevk> wrong channel
  361. # [13:27] <hsivonen> annevk: I thought people here would know
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  373. # [13:46] <zcorpan> Hixie: yt?
  374. # [13:47] * zcorpan guesses wrong time of the day
  375. # [13:52] <hsivonen> so 3 vendors are trying to do what's on the high level the idea of Web apps providing services to each other
  376. # [13:52] <hsivonen> Mozilla's Web Activities, Google's Web Intents and Microsoft's Contracts
  377. # [13:53] <Ms2ger> Opera did it first
  378. # [13:56] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I can't tell if you are joking or not
  379. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> I happen to be
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  384. # [14:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: If you had been talking about "provide access to device APIs" you would get a similar story
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  386. # [14:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: except in that case, Opera really did it first
  387. # [14:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: That was the unspoken subtext :)
  388. # [14:01] <hsivonen> is Opera Platform still alive?
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  390. # [14:09] <annevk> does anyone follow web-perf?
  391. # [14:09] <annevk> why did it remove references to HTML fetch?
  392. # [14:09] <annevk> that seems like a mistake given what they define...
  393. # [14:10] <annevk> is this one of those plh "lets define less so we can follow The Process" inspired tactics?
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  410. # [15:10] <hsivonen> annevk: for HTML in XHR, should I disable user-set charset pref and chardet?
  411. # [15:11] <hsivonen> annevk: i.e. default to Windows-1252 in the absence of an explicit declaration?
  412. # [15:11] <hsivonen> annevk: also, I think I shouldn't try to support the charset restart with late <meta>
  413. # [15:12] <hsivonen> does any browser support text/html in XHR yet?
  414. # [15:12] <hsivonen> honoring <meta> for responseText could break something, BTW
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  416. # [15:15] <zcorpan> can we be radical and force utf-8? :-)
  417. # [15:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't know. maybe!
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  420. # [15:21] <annevk> hsivonen, Gecko does not honor <meta>?
  421. # [15:21] <annevk> hsivonen, WebKit does iirc
  422. # [15:21] <hsivonen> annevk: for responseText?
  423. # [15:21] <annevk> yes
  424. # [15:21] <annevk> hsivonen, XHR just defers to HTML for the whole thing
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  426. # [15:21] <annevk> note that for CSS it doesn't
  427. # [15:21] <hsivonen> annevk: does WebKit support text/html parsing for responseXML?
  428. # [15:22] <annevk> no
  429. # [15:22] <annevk> but it does for decoding
  430. # [15:22] <hsivonen> aargh. why does WebKit do something weird like that?
  431. # [15:22] <annevk> once you support an HTML parser for responseXML it only makes sense, no?
  432. # [15:22] <hsivonen> annevk: does WebKit apply heuristic detectors and user settings?
  433. # [15:22] <annevk> would be weird if they decode differently
  434. # [15:23] <hsivonen> annevk: once you do, sure. before you do, no
  435. # [15:23] <annevk> well if that's the plan better to not have to break compat
  436. # [15:23] <hsivonen> so do I now have to write test cases to reverse engineer WebKit?
  437. # [15:24] <hsivonen> I though we had specs for this
  438. # [15:24] <annevk> afaik WebKit uses the same codepath
  439. # [15:24] <hsivonen> annevk: just deferring to HTML is questionable when this part of HTML has legacy-oriented optional features
  440. # [15:25] <annevk> but I don't know all the details and it has been ages
  441. # [15:25] <hsivonen> annevk: same as what?
  442. # [15:25] <annevk> HTML parser
  443. # [15:25] <hsivonen> annevk: with user setting-dependent charset defaults and heuristic detection?
  444. # [15:25] <annevk> it seems weird that an HTML page loaded in a browsing context would decode differently when loaded through XMLHttpRequest
  445. # [15:25] <hsivonen> annevk: with inheritance from parent?
  446. # [15:26] <annevk> of course that is already the case for e.g. text/css...
  447. # [15:26] <annevk> hmm
  448. # [15:26] <zcorpan> also the case with text/javascript, <script> vs Worker
  449. # [15:26] <hsivonen> annevk: it also seems weird for newly-introduced UIless API to have its behavior magically change when you run a Japanese localization
  450. # [15:26] <annevk> hsivonen, responseText is not new
  451. # [15:27] <annevk> ok wait
  452. # [15:27] <annevk> I don't mind changing this to something that we (you) think is better
  453. # [15:28] <annevk> At the time I wrote this text I didn't know the HTML parser came with a bunch of preference flags
  454. # [15:28] <annevk> we could do ;charset= <meta> fallback to UTF-8 if it's decided that is better
  455. # [15:29] <hsivonen> aaarrrghh
  456. # [15:29] <hsivonen> Gecko runs the heuristic detector for responseText
  457. # [15:29] <hsivonen> why, oh, why
  458. # [15:29] <hsivonen> somebody was feeling "helpful"?
  459. # [15:29] <annevk> only for text/html?
  460. # [15:29] <hsivonen> annevk: for non-XML
  461. # [15:30] <annevk> o_O
  462. # [15:30] <zcorpan> to make you bald earlier?
  463. # [15:30] <hsivonen> ooops
  464. # [15:30] <hsivonen> no
  465. # [15:30] <hsivonen> I'm seeing things that aren't there
  466. # [15:30] <hsivonen> sorry
  467. # [15:30] * hsivonen misread some allcaps stuff
  468. # [15:31] * zcorpan pictures hsivonen instantly regaining bouffant hair (with apologies to brucel)
  469. # [15:31] <hsivonen> so Gecko is reading charset from HTTP or falling back to UTF-8
  470. # [15:32] <hsivonen> which suggests text/html should default to UTF-8 instead of Windows-1252 or something locale-dependent
  471. # [15:33] <hsivonen> I think I'm going to skip the legacy craziness for text/html in XHR
  472. # [15:33] * timeless chuckles
  473. # [15:34] <hsivonen> I was so afraid I'd see shocking contract ids that I misread non-shocking contract ids
  474. # [15:34] <annevk> please email public-webapps
  475. # [15:34] <hsivonen> annevk: will do
  476. # [15:34] <annevk> and maybe file bugs on HTML5 if the parser does not make it clear you can use it such ways
  477. # [15:34] * Joins: jonatasnona (~jonatas@lba.inpa.gov.br)
  478. # [15:35] <annevk> would be great to say "parse the HTML without legacy with UTF-8 as fallback"
  479. # [15:35] <annevk> or some such
  480. # [15:35] * Joins: jdong_bot_ (~jdong_bot@117.79.233.161)
  481. # [15:35] <timeless> annevk: i'm sorry to discover that you don't know the history of some of your competitors :(
  482. # [15:35] <timeless> i don't think his fears are unwarranted fwiw
  483. # [15:36] <annevk> ?
  484. # [15:36] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hewitt_%28programmer%29
  485. # [15:37] * timeless used to work on DOMI
  486. # [15:37] <annevk> ehm I contributed quite a bit to Gecko 2003-2005, stilll do...
  487. # [15:37] <timeless> (which at this point is but a footnote)
  488. # [15:37] <annevk> I just didn't know Joe Hewitt
  489. # [15:37] <annevk> big deal
  490. # [15:39] <hsivonen> annevk: email sent
  491. # [15:39] <timeless> hrm, he was on hiatus from core then https://www.ohloh.net/p/mozilla/contributors/19327463000
  492. # [15:39] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  493. # [15:40] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  494. # [15:40] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@node-7ahkvq28vc65m79q2.a0.ipv6.opera.com)
  495. # [15:40] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  496. # [15:40] <timeless> anyway, people were complaining that facebook's ui had changed recently
  497. # [15:40] <timeless> and i was wondering what people were talking about... because i was using a native facebook app :)
  498. # [15:42] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Client Quit)
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  501. # [15:44] <hsivonen> timeless: don't you believe in the Web?
  502. # [15:44] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  503. # [15:48] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Client Quit)
  504. # [15:53] * Quits: Ankheg (~Ankheg@91.224.77.4) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  505. # [15:56] <timeless> "I want to believe"
  506. # [15:56] <RobbertAtWork> I was waiting for you to say that
  507. # [15:56] <timeless> do i get a +1 for saying it?
  508. # [15:56] <RobbertAtWork> def
  509. # [15:56] <timeless> (or a ++?)
  510. # [15:56] <timeless> (sorry, i was afk)
  511. # [15:57] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  512. # [15:57] <timeless> but, the mobile apps tend to have features which i like better, and my browser costs too much
  513. # [15:57] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb_)
  514. # [15:57] <timeless> in this case, the fact that the mobile app doesn't update to get the latest and greatest ui rewrite is a feature
  515. # [15:57] <Kellen`> hsivonen: when validator.nu finds an invalid entity reference, it would be useful to report what the entity was somewhere. Right now, it's displayed in extract, but truncated if it's longer than 4 characters.
  516. # [15:57] <timeless> the mobile web site otoh would
  517. # [15:58] <timeless> hsivonen: oh, that reminds me, i need to complain to our web browser team
  518. # [15:58] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@66.207.208.98)
  519. # [15:58] <timeless> the gmail tablet ui recently added support for multiple accounts
  520. # [15:58] <annevk> oh hey RobbertAtWork!
  521. # [15:58] <timeless> but i can't get it to work
  522. # [15:58] <annevk> welkom
  523. # [15:58] <timeless> Kellen`++
  524. # [15:58] <Kellen`> Kellen`--
  525. # [15:58] <timeless> a lot of error reporting is unfortunately like that :(
  526. # [15:59] <timeless> ok: hsivonen +1 for reporting the complete entity :)
  527. # [15:59] <karlcow> I do not believe. :)
  528. # [16:00] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net)
  529. # [16:01] <Kellen`> timeless: yeah. i'm trying to ignore our custom entities but it's hard when you can't find the names anywhere in the error output
  530. # [16:01] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  531. # [16:02] <timeless> Kellen`: "ignore"?
  532. # [16:02] <timeless> if you have &custent1; &custent2; how would you ignore 2?
  533. # [16:03] <Kellen`> timeless: well, it'd be potentially buggy due to the truncating. since 1 and 2 both look like "&custe" in the error output
  534. # [16:04] <hsivonen> custom entities in text/html?
  535. # [16:05] <timeless> Kellen`: right, but are you basically teaching a templater to fill in the entities so that the next iteration can report another entity to fill in?
  536. # [16:05] <Kellen`> it's not "real" html; it goes through a filtering/parsing stage before presentation, but everything else besides the entities should be valid
  537. # [16:05] <hsivonen> I see
  538. # [16:05] * Quits: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
  539. # [16:05] <timeless> oh right, validator.nu isn't stop-on-first-fault
  540. # [16:06] <timeless> sorry, i'm so used to gecko's xml parser
  541. # [16:06] <hsivonen> the extractor has no clue that it's extracting a failed entity reference
  542. # [16:06] <timeless> manilla-screens-of-death
  543. # [16:06] <timeless> (with blood lettering)
  544. # [16:06] <Kellen`> background: there are characters that unicode doesn't contain that we need to represent
  545. # [16:06] <timeless> klingon? :)
  546. # [16:06] <Kellen`> hsivonen: ah... so it doesn't continue until it finds a semicolon
  547. # [16:06] <hsivonen> Tengwar?
  548. # [16:06] <hsivonen> Kellen`: nope
  549. # [16:07] <Kellen`> timeless: chemical binding symbols, a few music symbols
  550. # [16:07] <Kellen`> hsivonen: is there a way to configure the extract length?
  551. # [16:07] * Joins: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70)
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  554. # [16:09] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, see line 241 of the source: // WebIDL tests. TODO: Add null once the spec on that is clear.
  555. # [16:09] <AryehGregor> At the time I wrote the tests, it wasn't clear what the correct default behavior was for null.
  556. # [16:09] <RobbertAtWork> annevk: hey, thanks
  557. # [16:10] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  558. # [16:11] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, I didn't think of an object with toString at the time, since I didn't know enough ES.
  559. # [16:12] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: k
  560. # [16:12] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, it looks like everything treats null as the empty string, for both btoa and atob.
  561. # [16:12] <hsivonen> Kellen`: the length of the extract seem hard-coded, but it's possible to change the hard-coding
  562. # [16:12] <Ms2ger> We should fix that, then
  563. # [16:13] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: the correct behavior should be to stringify to "null"
  564. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> Okay, but nobody does that.
  565. # [16:13] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: we just changed it in opera
  566. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> Should we test for it anyway and file bugs against Gecko and WebKit?
  567. # [16:13] <zcorpan> yeah
  568. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> Okay.
  569. # [16:13] <zcorpan> thanks
  570. # [16:14] <Kellen`> hsivonen: okay, i might go that route. if you are already looking at the source, in what class should I look?
  571. # [16:14] <AryehGregor> So the current strategy is we try to convert everything to stringify null to "null" except where we have specific evidence web compat demands otherwise?
  572. # [16:14] <hsivonen> Kellen`: how long do the extracts need to be?
  573. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> Want to fix as well?
  574. # [16:14] <hsivonen> Kellen`: SourceCode.java, line 178
  575. # [16:14] <Kellen`> hsivonen: for my use-case only like 8 characters after the error-location (the &)
  576. # [16:14] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, no, because it's not in my contract and so I'm not being paid for it. I'm only being paid to do specs and tests.
  577. # [16:14] <hsivonen> Kellen`: ok. it's now 6
  578. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> CC me, then
  579. # [16:16] <zcorpan> doesn't window.top need to be unforgeable for flash "origin" checks to not be bogus?
  580. # [16:16] <Ms2ger> Hah, Flash
  581. # [16:17] <annevk> AryehGregor, that is the strategy yes
  582. # [16:17] <Kellen`> hsivonen: ok thanks. not sure i'll change it as it means having our own patches to apply to new versions
  583. # [16:18] <hsivonen> Kellen`: I'll change it
  584. # [16:18] <Kellen`> hsivonen: awesome, thanks!
  585. # [16:18] <RobbertAtWork> annevk: "… Welcome to another WHATWG Weekly." great intro, deserves one of those low radio voices
  586. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, do you know what the procedure is for updating approved tests?
  587. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, done.
  588. # [16:19] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  589. # [16:19] <Ms2ger> Make the change in submissions/, and I'll review it
  590. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> Okay.
  591. # [16:20] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: no idea
  592. # [16:20] * AryehGregor will follow Ms2ger's advice
  593. # [16:21] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  594. # [16:25] <hsivonen> do engines other than Gecko do magic sniffin on the doctype passed to createDocument to determine what kind of doc is returned?
  595. # [16:26] <zcorpan> i think opera might do that. possibly to comply with acid3!
  596. # [16:26] <hsivonen> Kellen`: landed and deployed
  597. # [16:26] <hsivonen> Acid3...
  598. # [16:28] <Kellen`> hsivonen: thanks, solves my problem for the moment. long-term it might be worth it to report things that look like entities; scan from the & until you hit a semicolon or an invalid character
  599. # [16:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't see Acid3 requiring that
  600. # [16:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: iirc it required HTMLDocument
  601. # [16:29] * Quits: mishunov (~spliter@77.88.72.162) (Quit: mishunov)
  602. # [16:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah, but that can be achieved by making all Documents HTMLDocuments
  603. # [16:30] <timeless> has everyone here updated their Flash?
  604. # [16:30] <timeless> :)
  605. # [16:30] <zcorpan> sure
  606. # [16:30] <zcorpan> opera doesn't do that yet, though
  607. # [16:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: autoinstalls it and then leaves you with security holes?
  608. # [16:31] <AryehGregor> Ooh, nasty.
  609. # [16:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Gecko seems to even tweak the HTMLness bit depending on doctype :-(
  610. # [16:32] <zcorpan> dunno if opera does that
  611. # [16:33] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@node-7ahkvq28vc65m79q2.a0.ipv6.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  612. # [16:36] <annevk> hsivonen, that DOCTYPE stuff is non-conforming per DOM4
  613. # [16:39] <hsivonen> annevk: did you test that Gecko is the only engine to do it? how did you decide to make it non-conforming?
  614. # [16:39] <zewt> annevk: the main thing I'm concerned with in that thread is whether we really want to be moving XHR's Progress Events-related weirdness into new specs
  615. # [16:39] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/rev/17c9331f8fa8
  616. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> Oh, lame.
  617. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> It gives a bad diff.
  618. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> I used hg cp, and hg diff showed me the diff from the source file.
  619. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  620. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> You should be able to figure out the diff yourself, I guess.
  621. # [16:40] <zewt> i think all new APIs should follow both the invariants sicking mentioned, and the one I mentioned (never interleaving events, eg. no loadstart ... loadstart ... loadend ... loadend)
  622. # [16:41] <zewt> even if that means being inconsistent with XHR if it's too late to change XHR
  623. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, yeah, W3C's hgweb doesn't get that, apparently
  624. # [16:42] <timeless> Ms2ger: do we need to file a bug /contact team to get hgweb updated?
  625. # [16:44] <Ms2ger> Would be nice
  626. # [16:45] <zewt> (also no dropped loadends, of course)
  627. # [16:45] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-203-136-181-177.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  628. # [16:47] <timeless> hrm
  629. # [16:47] <annevk> hsivonen, I only remember some vague discussion that it was probably that could be changed, especially in the light of all Documents implementing all interfaces
  630. # [16:48] <timeless> diff -c shows me the same thing as hgweb
  631. # [16:48] <annevk> probable*
  632. # [16:48] <timeless> but diff -r 310 -r 460 shows me what AryehGregor expected
  633. # [16:48] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-71-202-136-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  635. # [16:48] <timeless> so, that might not be a bug, so much as a lack of a feature to "do what i want"
  636. # [16:49] <timeless> it's basically "diff-follow-copies"
  637. # [16:51] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  638. # [16:55] <hsivonen> annevk: boo. XHR2 still has a synchronous code example
  639. # [16:58] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y230056.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
  640. # [17:01] <annevk> hsivonen, where?
  641. # [17:03] <hsivonen> annevk: in Introduction
  642. # [17:03] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  643. # [17:03] <annevk> none of those is synchronous
  644. # [17:03] <annevk> for synchronous the third parameter of open() needs to be false
  645. # [17:04] <hsivonen> annevk: oh, sorry
  646. # [17:04] * Quits: rtuin (~rtuin@D57D6C6A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  647. # [17:04] <hsivonen> annevk: confusing to have an optional parameter default to ture
  648. # [17:04] <hsivonen> true
  649. # [17:04] <hsivonen> annevk: do you have a test suite for text/html in XHR?
  650. # [17:05] <annevk> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/XMLHttpRequest/tests/submissions/Opera/responsetext-decoding.htm has some tests
  651. # [17:05] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
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  654. # [17:06] <annevk> hmm only one actually
  655. # [17:06] <annevk> but it's trivial to add more
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  658. # [17:09] * david_carlisle_ is now known as david_carlisle
  659. # [17:12] <zewt> annevk: also, I don't understand the question about open()'s readystatechange (it does get fired, but it's not a Progress Events event)
  660. # [17:14] <annevk> it means things are confusing
  661. # [17:15] <zewt> that is true :)
  662. # [17:15] <zewt> (but it's send() that's throwing that exception, not open(), FWIW)
  663. # [17:16] <annevk> ?
  664. # [17:16] <annevk> open() never throws
  665. # [17:16] <annevk> send() throws, but can be terminated by invoking open()
  666. # [17:17] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: FireFly)
  667. # [17:17] <zewt> in the FF6 case you were responding to, I mean
  668. # [17:18] <zewt> afk a couple
  669. # [17:19] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  670. # [17:19] <annevk> what I meant was that send() can be terminated too
  671. # [17:19] <annevk> so you have the same event issue there
  672. # [17:19] <annevk> not just with abort()
  673. # [17:19] * Quits: cygri (~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: cygri)
  674. # [17:21] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  675. # [17:25] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~Robbert@a83-160-99-114.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: RobbertAtWork)
  676. # [17:28] <zewt> annevk: it's a bit confusing that send() says "can only be terminated ... after returned", but abort() says "terminate send()"--they seem contradictory if abort() is called during send()'s readystatechange
  677. # [17:31] <woef> Why is there no "not" operator in the css attribute selector spec. Performance?
  678. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> :not()?
  679. # [17:35] <woef> So .class1:not([class*=" "]) targets all elements that only contains the class "class1"?
  680. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> Unless you have class=" class1 ", I guess
  681. # [17:35] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  682. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> Or class="class1(tab)class2"
  683. # [17:35] <woef> Good point.
  684. # [17:36] <gsnedders> or LF
  685. # [17:36] <annevk> zewt, that note is non-normative right and is mostly correct...
  686. # [17:36] <woef> I guess yelling at some CMS guys should fix that though, if it happens.
  687. # [17:36] <zewt> "mostly correct" is bad, even if it's non-normative :)
  688. # [17:37] <annevk> yeah
  689. # [17:37] <annevk> should remove that note
  690. # [17:37] <woef> Is there any other (easier?) way to target single class instances?
  691. # [17:37] <zewt> it's really confusing to have algorithms terminated from outside without it going through a concrete flag or something :(
  692. # [17:39] <annevk> I'm not married to how it is written down now
  693. # [17:40] <annevk> couldn't really think of a better way
  694. # [17:40] <Ms2ger> I doubt such a marriage would be legal
  695. # [17:40] <annevk> and so far nobody really seems to care or pay attention to the spec that much...
  696. # [17:40] * Quits: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  697. # [17:41] <Ms2ger> annevk, you mean, Microsoft doesn't even care enough to block it? :)
  698. # [17:41] <annevk> Ms2ger, per Fox News I'm sure that's feasible in the Netherlands
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  700. # [17:41] <zewt> i'm more worried about FileAPI following it as precedent, and every progress events api in the future following suit--having mismatched and nested progress sequences really sucks
  701. # [17:41] <woef> ( *[class="class1"] should work too I guess, and has better browser support )
  702. # [17:41] <annevk> Ms2ger, sure there's meta debate
  703. # [17:41] <Ms2ger> And there's Björn
  704. # [17:42] <zewt> and/or
  705. # [17:42] <annevk> Ms2ger, he's part of the meta debate it seems given that he's no idea what's produced
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  722. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, will you remember to review my base64 test updates, or should I also send an e-mail requesting review?
  723. # [18:24] <Ms2ger> I'll do it now
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  725. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> // WebIDL requires DOMStrings to just be converted using ECMAScript
  726. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> // ToString, which amounts to calling String(), except possibly for null,
  727. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> // which we don't test because it's unclear.
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  731. # [18:34] <gsnedders> Unclear how?
  732. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, will fix, just a minute.
  733. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, it was unclear when I wrote that.
  734. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Now it's not.
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  741. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/rev/5e92fcc9015b
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  762. # [19:36] <Hixie> is mounir on irc?
  763. # [19:36] <annevk> his nick is volkmar
  764. # [19:37] <Hixie> volkmar: ping
  765. # [19:37] <Hixie> annevk: thanks
  766. # [19:37] <volkmar> Hixie: pong
  767. # [19:37] <Hixie> hey dude
  768. # [19:37] <Hixie> any news on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12255 ? still no bugs?
  769. # [19:37] <Hixie> if so i'm gonna update the spec
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  773. # [19:37] <volkmar> no bugs I'm aware of yet
  774. # [19:37] <Hixie> awesome
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  776. # [19:37] <volkmar> though, it's in Firefox 7 which means yet in Beta
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  778. # [19:38] <volkmar> we can still get bugs reported
  779. # [19:38] <Hixie> sure
  780. # [19:38] <Hixie> but it's been quite a few weeks
  781. # [19:38] <Hixie> so odds are pretty good
  782. # [19:38] <volkmar> hmm, I would not bet on that
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  784. # [19:39] <volkmar> it's not uncommon to get some feedback about websites being broken when we release the final version
  785. # [19:39] <Hixie> well it's easy to change back anyway
  786. # [19:39] <volkmar> Hixie: yes ;)
  787. # [19:39] <Hixie> i just wanted to make sure it wasn't a deluge of compat issues :-)
  788. # [19:40] <Hixie> btw i saw your name on the <meter> and <input type=range> bugs in moz bugzilla, any news on those? i'm playing with some stuff that uses them and it's sad when it doesn't work in firefox :-(
  789. # [19:40] <volkmar> <meter> could have been landed some time ago
  790. # [19:40] <volkmar> but there is a a11y issue
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  792. # [19:41] <volkmar> I want to fix that before landing
  793. # [19:41] <Hixie> oh what's the issue? anything i can help with?
  794. # [19:41] <volkmar> basically, <meter> implementations assume thet the color is enough to indicate if the value is bad/medium/good
  795. # [19:42] <Hixie> oh there's no "warning!" sound in the screen reader output?
  796. # [19:42] <Hixie> yeah, that's a bit problematic
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  798. # [19:42] <volkmar> I believe the issue doesn't only (at all?) apply to screen readers
  799. # [19:42] <volkmar> if you have sight issues you might have a hard time to distinguish the color
  800. # [19:43] <Hixie> oh e.g. colour-blindness issues?
  801. # [19:43] <Hixie> hm, good point
  802. # [19:44] <volkmar> for the moment, I have a patch that adds two arrows, one for low and ane for high
  803. # [19:44] <volkmar> assuming the user will understand where the optimum should be with the context
  804. # [19:44] <Hixie> neat
  805. # [19:45] <volkmar> for <input type=range>, it's a high priority but we don't have anyone working on it right now
  806. # [19:48] <Hixie> ah
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  875. # [22:57] <annevk> no dglazkov?
  876. # [22:57] <annevk> anyway, I did say trimmed
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  883. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> Does anyone know what heuristic Chrome uses to decide whether to offer to remember a password? It doesn't seem to want to on my gentest.html page.
  884. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> Oh, my username field has no name. Maybe that's it.
  885. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> There, that seemed to work.
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  911. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> Is anyone working on exposing browser implementations of things like SHA1 to JS?
  912. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> It's kind of annoying not to have them sometimes, and a browser implementation would be both trivial to do and ridiculously faster.
  913. # [23:49] <Philip`> Are JS implementations too slow to use in practice?
  914. # [23:50] <Philip`> (Certainly they're slower than C++, but that's not the same thing)
  915. # [23:50] * Joins: stefan-_ (~music@wall.wi2.uni-trier.de)
  916. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> They're plenty fast for a lot of things. I use an md5 lib for non-secure hashing.
  917. # [23:52] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:f03d:4c1a:bb80:5aa7)
  918. # [23:52] * Joins: onar (~onar@17.216.36.168)
  919. # [23:52] <zewt> Philip`: there was a thread about that at one point--it's definitely too slow for some use cases, like verifying/syncing bulk data for games
  920. # [23:53] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  921. # [23:53] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-88-201f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  922. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I'm at least as concerned with convenience as speed.
  923. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> This is something where everyone has access to interoperable implementations anyway, it's just a matter of hooking them up.
  924. # Session Close: Fri Sep 23 00:00:00 2011

The end :)