/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 24 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] * Joins: michaelw (~michaelw@lambda.foldr.org)
  4. # [00:04] <michaelw> hi! in the html5 spec, Sec. 4.3.1 (script elements), is "already started" the same flag as in 3.17.1 "already executed"?
  5. # [00:06] <Hixie> mkanat: probably, i'm not the one to ask on that front
  6. # [00:06] <Hixie> michaelw: no
  7. # [00:06] <Hixie> michaelw: though one may be a typo...
  8. # [00:06] <Hixie> michaelw: looking now
  9. # [00:06] <Hixie> i can't find any mention of "already executed"
  10. # [00:06] <Hixie> the <Script> flags are all defined in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#already-started
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  13. # [00:07] <Hixie> michaelw: i can't work out to what you are referring to w.r.t 3.17.1
  14. # [00:07] <michaelw> oh drat, I might have looked at an outdated spec!
  15. # [00:07] <Hixie> michaelw: are you looking at the current spec?
  16. # [00:07] <Hixie> whatwg.org/html or whatwg.org/c
  17. # [00:07] <Hixie> don't look at anything else if you want to avoid outdated specs :-)
  18. # [00:08] <Hixie> and definitely don't look at anytihing with /TR/ in the url
  19. # [00:08] <michaelw> ok, thanks. sorry for the noise
  20. # [00:08] <Hixie> np
  21. # [00:10] <michaelw> another question, in 4.2.7 a UA can "give up" on a stylesheet that is blocking scripts. What does that mean exactly?
  22. # [00:11] <Hixie> pretty much exactly what it sounds like
  23. # [00:11] <michaelw> the way it reads to me right now is that a UA doesn't have to block...
  24. # [00:12] <Hixie> that is correct
  25. # [00:13] <michaelw> Hixie: this sort of begs the question why this is mentioned then at all
  26. # [00:13] <Hixie> i can add some clarifying text explaining why giving up early is a bad idea
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  28. # [00:15] <michaelw> Hixie: yes, please.
  29. # [00:15] <Hixie> k. remind me in 5 minutes :-)
  30. # [00:15] <Hixie> or file a bug
  31. # [00:15] <Hixie> (a bug will take more months)
  32. # [00:15] * michaelw sets a timer
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  34. # [00:25] <michaelw> Hixie: here's your reminder about adding some explanation to 4.2.7 why giving up on stylesheets immediately (and only waiting for them at the styling phase) is bad
  35. # [00:25] <Hixie> thanks
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  37. # [00:26] <Hixie> that was perfect timing
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  40. # [00:31] <Hixie> ok i added a paragraph after the "give up" one
  41. # [00:31] <Hixie> michaelw: should be up in a few seconds for your review
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  43. # [00:34] <michaelw> Hixie: okay, waiting for it
  44. # [00:35] <Hixie> should be up
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  47. # [00:36] <Hixie> (checked in)
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  51. # [00:39] <michaelw> Hixie: got it, thanks
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  58. # [00:48] <Hixie> julian is funny
  59. # [00:50] <Hixie> funnier still though is the people who still argue with him!
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  72. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> I feel nervous when writing a spec this small. I feel like I'm leaving out something.
  73. # [01:15] <boogyman> lol
  74. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> It's only like 4 screens of text (or probably 8 on a normal persons' monitor)
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  76. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> (That includes boilerplate, which is at least half of the height.)
  77. # [01:15] <boogyman> only.. lol
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  81. # [01:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: your feedback on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13502 would be quite helpful
  82. # [01:27] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you only have 2 screens' of boilerplate? that can't be right. did you run it through pubrules? ;-)
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  86. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> Hixie: 2 of my screens. Actually, 2.5. That's 5 normal screens worth.
  87. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> I've got vertical 30"ers.
  88. # [01:35] <Hixie> still seems short
  89. # [01:35] <Hixie> are you including the conformance section, conformance class definitions, and terminology and typegraphical convention sections in what you call boilerplate?
  90. # [01:36] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
  91. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  92. # [01:36] <Hixie> definitely sounds short :-)
  93. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> That's the new Module Template, so shrug.
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  102. # [02:06] <danja> anyone here working for ISO?
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  104. # [02:07] <danja> comments on their html?
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  107. # [02:14] <TabAtkins> What, you mean the ISO HTML spec?
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  109. # [02:15] <aho> my favorite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3103
  110. # [02:15] <aho> monocle time!
  111. # [02:15] <aho> hm hm. quite. :v
  112. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> danja: If that is what you meant, then that's a fork of HTML4. It's useless.
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  119. # [02:28] <danja> hello?
  120. # [02:28] <danja> TabAtkins, I'm feeling a bit cynical
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  122. # [02:32] <danja> TabAtkins, thing is, seems like some of the best brains on the planet
  123. # [02:32] <danja> being useless
  124. # [02:32] <aho> fork of html4 = no one gives a f-
  125. # [02:32] <danja> hope hixie heard that
  126. # [02:32] <aho> seriously
  127. # [02:32] <TabAtkins> danja: I have no idea what you mean.
  128. # [02:32] <aho> <:
  129. # [02:32] <Hixie> o_O
  130. # [02:32] <danja> let me explain
  131. # [02:32] <aho> TabAtkins, you did the css @var stuff, didn't you?
  132. # [02:32] <TabAtkins> aho: Yes. I'm writing the actual spec *right now*.
  133. # [02:32] <danja> computers became exciting to me
  134. # [02:32] <aho> i really like how media queries work in scss
  135. # [02:33] <aho> you can put them inside some rule blocks
  136. # [02:33] <aho> http://sass-lang.com/docs/yardoc/file.SASS_REFERENCE.html#media
  137. # [02:33] <danja> hixie! - talk for a mo
  138. # [02:33] <aho> this is the behavior i usually want
  139. # [02:33] <aho> (:
  140. # [02:33] <aho> i.e. having the overrides right next to the default values
  141. # [02:34] <aho> the way media queries currently work is exactly the wrong way around :>
  142. # [02:34] <TabAtkins> aho: Yeah, I agree. It would be useful. One more reason to allow at-rules inside of declaration blocks.
  143. # [02:34] <aho> :)~
  144. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> Now, I wouldn't say that. The current way works fine, it's just that the other way is *also* useful, when you just need to make a small media-dependent adjustment.
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  146. # [02:36] <aho> well, i build the site from the ground up... i create reusable "bricks" which are then used all over the place. everything which belongs together (i.e. everything of this tiny sub tree) is together in one specific place
  147. # [02:36] <aho> media queries totally break that
  148. # [02:37] <aho> s/the site/sites :>
  149. # [02:38] <aho> it's pretty much like override stylesheets for IE via conditinal comments vs IE filters
  150. # [02:38] <aho> it's ugly either way, but the "inline" option is nicer to use (because it's right there)
  151. # [02:39] <danja> I like the brick metapgor
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  155. # [02:40] <aho> .Foo{} .Foo>.bar{} .Foo>.baz{} .Foo>.baz>.bat{}
  156. # [02:40] <aho> everything looks like that :>
  157. # [02:41] <aho> classes, subtree root node is capitalized, child combinators
  158. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> It'll be nice when we can do .Foo{ ... &>.bar{...} $>.baz{ ... &>.bat{...}}}
  159. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> (That looks prettier when actually indented.)
  160. # [02:42] <aho> ye, currently using scss/compass for that
  161. # [02:42] <aho> works pretty well so far
  162. # [02:42] <aho> just the "& > " bit is kinda awkward ;)
  163. # [02:43] <aho> i really wish the child combinator would have been the default instead of the descendant one
  164. # [02:43] <aho> child:desc exceeds 9:1 with current projects
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  166. # [02:44] <aho> well, mine anyways .)
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  172. # [03:01] <TabAtkins> aho: Oh yeah, nesting @media, at least, is allowed by the Conditionals spec.
  173. # [03:01] <TabAtkins> All three of the conditionals can be nested within each other.
  174. # [03:01] <aho> shiver me timbers :O
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  228. # [05:14] <danja> sorry hixie, later
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  320. # [13:08] <GlitchMr> http://testcases.glitchmr.pl/html/url-002.html
  321. # [13:08] <GlitchMr> I was bored...
  322. # [13:08] <GlitchMr> I don't know how valid this test is...
  323. # [13:09] <GlitchMr> But I find it interesting how various browsers do it differently...
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  327. # [13:18] <GlitchMr> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/urls.html#parsing-urls
  328. # [13:19] <GlitchMr> I inserted this testcase to this...
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  330. # [13:23] <GlitchMr> http://ms2ger.freehostia.com/tests/html5/dynamic-markup-insertion/document.write-01.xhtml
  331. # [13:23] <GlitchMr> Fail, this document is actually text/html :P.
  332. # [13:24] <GlitchMr> OK, seriously... maybe I will make version which actually uses XHTML...
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  349. # [14:36] <jarek> Hi
  350. # [14:36] <jarek> is there any point is specifying charset on <script> elements if it has already been defined with <meta charset="utf-8">?
  351. # [14:37] <zcorpan> no
  352. # [14:37] <jarek> If I set <meta charset="utf-8"> in head section, does is it mean that all resources loaded from that page will use utf-8 as well?
  353. # [14:38] <zcorpan> no
  354. # [14:38] <zcorpan> but scripts and style sheets will inherit the encoding from the page unless they declare encoding themselves
  355. # [14:38] <jarek> will it work for CSS files? Should I start my CSS files with @charset 'utf-8'; ?
  356. # [14:38] <jarek> oh, great
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  359. # [14:39] <zcorpan> (html in an iframe will need to declare its own encoding)
  360. # [14:39] <GlitchMr> Warning! This method has very idiosyncratic behavior. In some cases, this method can affect the state of the HTML parser while the parser is running, resulting in a DOM that does not correspond to the source of the document.
  361. # [14:39] <GlitchMr> ...
  362. # [14:39] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  363. # [14:39] <GlitchMr> this also happens when using DOM...
  364. # [14:40] <jarek> and what if I'm using XHTML5 and declare charset at the top of the document like this:
  365. # [14:40] <jarek> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
  366. # [14:40] <zcorpan> is that about document.write?
  367. # [14:40] <GlitchMr> And older versions of IE also did it without doing anything...
  368. # [14:40] <GlitchMr> zcorpan, yeah
  369. # [14:40] <jarek> do I still have to use <meta charset="utf-8"> in head?
  370. # [14:40] <GlitchMr> jarek, charset declaration in <meta> is ignored in XML mode
  371. # [14:41] <GlitchMr> XML parser must know encoding before processing anything...
  372. # [14:42] <zcorpan> GlitchMr: file a bug saying that the note should be clearer about what it means
  373. # [14:42] <zcorpan> jarek: xml defaults to utf-8 so doesn't need a declaration at all
  374. # [14:42] <jarek> GlitchMr: but will <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> be also applied to scripts and stylesheets that are loaded from that page?
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  377. # [14:42] <zcorpan> yeah
  378. # [14:42] <GlitchMr> jarek, I don't know, really :P.
  379. # [14:43] <jarek> ok, let's check :P
  380. # [14:43] <GlitchMr> zcorpan, I through that XML detects encoding basing on BOM and uses UTF-8 if BOM wasn't found...
  381. # [14:43] <zcorpan> no declaration in xml will still let css and scripts inherit the used encoding
  382. # [14:43] <zcorpan> GlitchMr: it's not that simple. :)
  383. # [14:43] <GlitchMr> But I've never had need need to specify charset in CSS. The only reason I could think is having Unicode characters in content and even that is possible without specifying charset.
  384. # [14:45] <jarek> it looks like UTF-8 is assumed by default for CSS, JS and XHTML
  385. # [14:45] <jarek> at least on Chrome
  386. # [14:46] <GlitchMr> Even with stuff like ISO-8859-1?
  387. # [14:46] <jarek> yeah
  388. # [14:46] <GlitchMr> Makes sense...
  389. # [14:46] <zcorpan> jarek: css and js inherits the encoding from the embedding page if they don't declare their own encoding
  390. # [14:47] <jarek> I tried setting ISO-8859-1 in head section and as xml tag attribute, but I can still print UTF8 characters
  391. # [14:47] <zcorpan> what does your content-type http header say?
  392. # [14:49] <jarek> I can't find this header in Chrome Dev Tools
  393. # [14:49] <jarek> I can only see "Accept-Charset:ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.3"
  394. # [14:50] <zcorpan> that's a request header
  395. # [14:50] <zcorpan> content-type is a response header
  396. # [14:50] <zcorpan> or at least i'm interested in the response header :)
  397. # [14:51] <GlitchMr> http://glitchmr.pl/private/cssencoding.html
  398. # [14:51] <jarek> ahh, it shows up in Firebug
  399. # [14:51] <jarek> "Content-Type application/xhtml+xml"
  400. # [14:53] <zcorpan> jarek: do you have a URL to your test case?
  401. # [14:53] <jarek> zcorpan: not yet, I'm running it on my local server
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  404. # [14:56] <zcorpan> jarek: i can think of two reasons why your xhtml uses utf-8 instead of what you declared in the xml decl
  405. # [14:56] <zcorpan> jarek: either you have a UTF-8 BOM
  406. # [14:57] <zcorpan> jarek: or your server sends content-type: application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8
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  408. # [15:04] <jarek> do I get any performance gains by using XHTML5 instead of HTML5?
  409. # [15:05] <jarek> I heard that XML parsers are much faster than SGML parsers
  410. # [15:05] <GlitchMr> jarek, I don't think so
  411. # [15:05] <GlitchMr> Browsers skip more complex SGML tricks anyway...
  412. # [15:05] <zcorpan> jarek: no
  413. # [15:05] <GlitchMr> <b/This is considered wrongly by browsers.../
  414. # [15:05] <GlitchMr> And browsers have to check for errors in XML mode...
  415. # [15:05] <zcorpan> jarek: also, browsers don't use sgml parsers
  416. # [15:06] <GlitchMr> <!-- -- hello this -- is -- error -- which -- needs -- to be -- detected -- in -- xml --mode -->
  417. # [15:06] <jarek> zcorpan: yeah, but parsing HTML still requires a lot more trickery than regular XML
  418. # [15:06] <GlitchMr> jarek, actually, it's pretty easy to parse HTML
  419. # [15:07] <zcorpan> jarek: xml also requires a lot of trickery
  420. # [15:07] <zcorpan> jarek: like namespaces and checking for invalid characters in tags
  421. # [15:07] <GlitchMr> Yeah, namespaces are problematic
  422. # [15:07] <zcorpan> see http://hsivonen.iki.fi/cost-of-html/
  423. # [15:07] <GlitchMr> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">...
  424. # [15:09] <GlitchMr> Note: The charset attribute on the meta element has no effect in XML documents, and is only allowed in order to facilitate migration to and from XHTML.
  425. # [15:09] <zcorpan> jarek: hsivonen's finding showed that namespaces cost 21% perf hit for xml while html's "fixups" only costs 7% perf hit
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  428. # [15:10] <GlitchMr> I find it interesting through that implementation of XML in IE9 doesn't fail on invalid documents. I don't even mean more complex XML rules which needs to be find intentionally (like "<" in attribute values)...
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  430. # [15:11] <zcorpan> IE doesn't fail?
  431. # [15:12] <GlitchMr> Yes
  432. # [15:12] <zcorpan> o_O
  433. # [15:12] <GlitchMr> Whatever you do, it won't fail
  434. # [15:12] <GlitchMr> But it implements rules like <div/>.
  435. # [15:12] <GlitchMr> And it doesn't generate automatically elements like <tbody> or <body>...
  436. # [15:13] <zcorpan> i thought it aborted parsing but didn't show an error message
  437. # [15:13] <zcorpan> what if you give it data:text/xml,<foo>test </bar> test</foo> ?
  438. # [15:13] <zcorpan> does it render "test test"?
  439. # [15:14] <GlitchMr> ...
  440. # [15:14] <GlitchMr> Weird... it inserts some random error message
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  442. # [15:14] <GlitchMr> http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml-examples/1.xhtml
  443. # [15:15] <GlitchMr> This could be perfectly seen in IE9 through
  444. # [15:15] <zcorpan> that page doesn't have any more content after the wellformedness error
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  446. # [15:15] <zcorpan> so it doesn't tell whether it aborts parsing or continues parsing
  447. # [15:16] <GlitchMr> About your example, DOM of it looks like <foot>test...
  448. # [15:16] <GlitchMr> Weird...
  449. # [15:17] <zcorpan> that means it aborted parsing
  450. # [15:18] <GlitchMr> Makes sense...
  451. # [15:18] <GlitchMr> I through it ignored errors
  452. # [15:19] <GlitchMr> But I was testing it with stuff like <p>Hello<p>World
  453. # [15:19] <GlitchMr> Which actually gave <p>Hello<p>World</p></p> DOM...
  454. # [15:20] <GlitchMr> I think that Chrome does it similarly but it gives error messages...
  455. # [15:21] <GlitchMr> http://glitchmr.pl/pastebin/?f=rlaptin-2011-09-24
  456. # [15:22] <GlitchMr> I think that "type" is overused in HTML...
  457. # [15:22] <zcorpan> is it a problem?
  458. # [15:23] <GlitchMr> Nope, it's just kinda weird...
  459. # [15:23] <GlitchMr> type having multiple meanings...
  460. # [15:23] <GlitchMr> But it kind of makes sense...
  461. # [15:23] <GlitchMr> It's easy to type word.
  462. # [15:23] <zcorpan> there are more attributes like that
  463. # [15:25] <GlitchMr> I went through my list. I've only found VALUE and (possibly) ALIGN...
  464. # [15:25] <zcorpan> href
  465. # [15:25] <GlitchMr> 'HREF'=>'on <a>, <area>, <base> or <link>
  466. # [15:25] <GlitchMr> Specifies the destination of a link.',
  467. # [15:25] <GlitchMr> I think I should make more detailed instructions :P.
  468. # [15:25] <GlitchMr> lol
  469. # [15:25] <zcorpan> <base> is not a link :)
  470. # [15:26] * temp02 is now known as temp01
  471. # [15:26] <GlitchMr> Yeah...
  472. # [15:26] <zcorpan> name=""
  473. # [15:26] <GlitchMr> It's from my IRC bot list of tags...
  474. # [15:26] <GlitchMr> Yeah, I will agree with name.
  475. # [15:27] <GlitchMr> Possibly also MULTIPLE, it has three different meanings...
  476. # [15:28] <zcorpan> even attributes like width, height, src are subtly different
  477. # [15:28] <zcorpan> and alt=""
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  479. # [15:28] <zcorpan> span=""
  480. # [15:28] <GlitchMr> 'WIDTH'=>'on <applet> (Transitional), <col> (HTML4), <colgroup> (HTML4), <embed> (HTML5), <hr> (Transitional), <iframe> (Transitional), <img> (All), <object> (All), <pre> (HTML4), <table> (HTML4), <td> (Transitonal), <th> (Transitional) or <video>. (HTML5)
  481. # [15:28] <GlitchMr> Specifies width of element',
  482. # [15:28] <GlitchMr> alt? I don't think so...
  483. # [15:28] <GlitchMr> 'ALT'=>'on <applet>, <area>, <img> or <input type=image>
  484. # [15:28] <GlitchMr> Sets alternate text to display if image couldn\'t be displayed/',
  485. # [15:28] <GlitchMr> s/image/object/;
  486. # [15:28] <zcorpan> max=""
  487. # [15:28] <GlitchMr> I think I should replace it
  488. # [15:29] <zcorpan> title=""
  489. # [15:29] <GlitchMr> About span=""? It has just one meaning.
  490. # [15:29] <GlitchMr> For <col> and <colgroup>...
  491. # [15:29] <GlitchMr> And title="" has this same meaning for every tag...
  492. # [15:30] <GlitchMr> Of course I know about <span> and <title>, but that's different construct.
  493. # [15:30] <zcorpan> <col span> and <colgroup span> have different requirements
  494. # [15:31] <zcorpan> title="" has different meaning on <style> and <link rel="alternate stylesheet">
  495. # [15:31] <GlitchMr> zcorpan, oh right, I forgot about it
  496. # [15:31] <zcorpan> but i guess it depends on how strictly correct you want your definitions to be
  497. # [15:32] <zcorpan> being exactly correct would just be a copy of the spec :)
  498. # [15:32] <GlitchMr> :P
  499. # [15:32] <GlitchMr> It's IRC bot, I try to avoid very long descriptions.
  500. # [15:32] <GlitchMr> I don't want every description to activate my pastebin :P.
  501. # [15:36] <GlitchMr> KEYTYPE for me is funny (for now...). As for now it looks like - if you specify it you might make <KEYGEN> not work :P.
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  511. # [16:11] <GlitchMr> http://testcases.glitchmr.pl/html/marquee-002.html
  512. # [16:11] <GlitchMr> I find it interesting. Opera and Chrome fail it in different ways
  513. # [16:11] <GlitchMr> In Opera, onbounce="" event doesn't activate.
  514. # [16:12] <GlitchMr> In Chrome it doesn't move at all...
  515. # [16:12] <GlitchMr> Is it possibly bug in Chrome?
  516. # [16:13] <GlitchMr> It looks like behavior="alternate" isn't implemented in WebKit or something
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  536. # [17:32] <zewt> heh
  537. # [17:32] <zewt> unpaired surrogates completely hose input boxes in chrome
  538. # [17:35] <Philip`> UTF-16 really doesn't seem to have worked out well in practice
  539. # [17:35] <zewt> well, it's fundamentally absurd, so that's little surprise :)
  540. # [17:37] <zewt> (i don't know which is worse, the fact that it combines the undesirable properties of multibyte and wide encodings, or the fact that the cases where it needs special handling are also exceptionally rare)
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  544. # [17:51] <zewt> ouch, chrome is broken even for legal surrogate pairs
  545. # [17:52] <zewt> (deja vu--maybe I hit this before)
  546. # [17:52] <zewt> (can't tell if it's that or just general "utf-16 never works")
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  548. # [18:05] <Philip`> Computers are surprisingly rubbish at fundamental things like text
  549. # [18:05] <Philip`> and numbers
  550. # [18:06] <zewt> heh
  551. # [18:07] <zewt> they should teach kids NaN and overflow flags in grade school
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  565. # [18:20] <GlitchMr> "has some support but crashes"
  566. # [18:20] <GlitchMr> O_o
  567. # [18:21] <GlitchMr> But that <b></b> while parsing invalid HTML <table><b> is weird...
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  572. # [18:26] <GlitchMr> Should I remove testcase which reports 404?
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  585. # [18:59] <GlitchMr> http://testcases.glitchmr.pl/html/img-001.html
  586. # [18:59] <GlitchMr> First version of that had race condition :(.
  587. # [18:59] <GlitchMr> So I think I fail...
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  634. # Session Close: Sun Sep 25 00:00:00 2011

The end :)