/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 29 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [00:29] <Hixie> ok i think i have multipart/x-mixed-replace specced for regular browsing contexts
  14. # [00:29] <Hixie> now for images
  15. # [00:31] <Hixie> holy cow, bfcache works better for the html spec in firefox than chrome, that's for sure
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  17. # [00:35] <abarth> Hixie: chrome doesn't have a bfcache
  18. # [00:35] <Hixie> ah well that explains it
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  22. # [00:42] <mkanat> Yeah, it makes me sad.
  23. # [00:42] <mkanat> There's one in WebKit but it hasn't been hooked into Chrome yet.
  24. # [00:42] <abarth> i've wanted to implement it for a while, but I haven't gotten around to it
  25. # [00:43] <abarth> its non-trivial to get right
  26. # [00:43] <mkanat> Yeah, I can totally imagine.
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  29. # [00:45] <Hixie> especially in a multiprocess architecture, i imagine
  30. # [00:45] <mkanat> Oh yeah, I suppose you have to have a bfcache for each process.
  31. # [00:45] <abarth> mkanat: and do process-process back navigations
  32. # [00:46] <abarth> sorry
  33. # [00:46] <abarth> cross-process
  34. # [00:46] <mkanat> abarth: There are times when back/forward crosses process boundaries?
  35. # [00:46] <abarth> yes, often
  36. # [00:46] <abarth> we refresh the process whenever we can
  37. # [00:46] <gavin> can you not at least do fastback for same-process navigation?
  38. # [00:47] <mkanat> gavin: I'd imagine that would be an inconsistent and confusing user experience.
  39. # [00:47] <mkanat> gavin: Particularly if developers came to rely on it.
  40. # [00:47] <gavin> huh?
  41. # [00:48] <mkanat> gavin: There have been times when I've greatly wanted to rely on the bfcache in Firefox for fixing back/forward bugs.
  42. # [00:48] <gavin> "going back is sometimes fast" shouldn't really be confusing to users, it's not like there's much consistency there
  43. # [00:48] <mkanat> gavin: That's true, since bfcache is already like that.
  44. # [00:49] <Hixie> the spec allows bfcache to blow away the stored documents whenever
  45. # [00:49] <Hixie> pages that depend on them not going away are going to break left right and center
  46. # [00:49] <mkanat> Yeah.
  47. # [00:49] <mkanat> I actually wish that didn't happen; about 75% of JS bug effort on the developer side nowadays seem to be around dealing with the Back button.
  48. # [00:50] <gavin> "JS bug effort on the developer side" ?
  49. # [00:50] <mkanat> gavin: In terms of work that you have to do if you want to render an app that does go to different URLs, but while it's on the page, alters the DOM with JS in some way.
  50. # [00:50] <gavin> just in general?
  51. # [00:50] <mkanat> gavin: Yeah, in general.
  52. # [00:50] <gavin> ok...
  53. # [00:50] <Hixie> jsut store the state with pushState or replaceState
  54. # [00:50] <Hixie> it's not _that_ hard
  55. # [00:51] <mkanat> Hixie: Provided that your page can rebuild itself from a URL string, yes.
  56. # [00:51] <Hixie> or a state object
  57. # [00:51] <mkanat> Hixie: Although that means that any DOM manipulation you do, you must then also implement a system for rebuilding it from the URL.
  58. # [00:51] <Hixie> well you should do that anyway
  59. # [00:51] <mkanat> Hixie: Only if that state object can be serialized into the URL, no? Or you mean like in localStorage.
  60. # [00:51] <Hixie> for bookmarking purposes
  61. # [00:52] <Hixie> the state object can be anything that can be structured-cloned
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  63. # [00:52] <mkanat> Hixie: Yeah, thankfully the last time I hit this, replaceState did fix it (for the browsers that implement replaceState).
  64. # [00:52] <Hixie> (think of it as "anything like JSON)
  65. # [00:52] <Hixie> ^"
  66. # [00:52] <Hixie> anyone know of a multipart/x-mixed-replace image anywhere?
  67. # [00:53] <mkanat> No, although I'd imagine it would be fairly easy to set up.
  68. # [00:53] <Hixie> i'm lazy :-P
  69. # [00:53] * Hixie uses his multipart/x-mixed-replace kitchen to make one
  70. # [00:54] <Hixie> (http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/page-loading/multipart/001.cgi)
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  73. # [00:55] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1159 doesn't work in firefox :-(
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  84. # [01:45] <astearns> AryehGregor: I decided to look at the "CSS points are 1/72 of an actual inch when printed" claim in Mac browsers
  85. # [01:45] <astearns> AryehGregor: it's true for FireFox 7
  86. # [01:45] <astearns> AryehGregor: Safari prints slightly larger
  87. # [01:45] <astearns> AryehGregor: Opera prints slightly smaller
  88. # [01:45] <astearns> AryehGregor: Chrome doesn't even try - it seems to print at the screen zoom level
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  101. # [02:12] <Hixie> ok seriously, why can't people read specs
  102. # [02:12] <Hixie> almost whenever someone has a complaint about a spec, they end up quoting a non-normative note or example
  103. # [02:13] <Hixie> !@#$%^&*~( it's NOT NORMATIVE
  104. # [02:13] <Hixie> CANNOT BE USED TO BACK UP AN ARGUMENT ABOUT WHAT THE SPEC SAYS
  105. # [02:13] <Hixie> sigh
  106. # [02:13] <mkanat> Maybe they don't know what "normative" means?
  107. # [02:15] <Dashiva> No, it happens with examples too
  108. # [02:15] <Dashiva> "This example shows X, so Y must therefore be invalid"
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  110. # [02:20] <mkanat> Well, the world has no shortage of stupid people.
  111. # [02:20] <mkanat> We're not in a stupid-people conservation crisis.
  112. # [02:20] <mkanat> They're not an endangered species.
  113. # [02:21] <Dashiva> They certainly are, that's why we have warning labels everywhere
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  115. # [02:25] <Hixie> it's not even only stupid people
  116. # [02:25] <Hixie> people who are otherwise highly competent are susceptible to this just as much
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  137. # [03:11] <TabAtkins> Dammit, now I've started writing IDL and I suspect I'm going to be angry at it.
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  160. # [04:21] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  241. # [07:53] <annevk> so because of W3C publication politics we're getting an initTouchEvent method that will be obsolete any day now? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0092.html
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  243. # [07:53] <annevk> :(
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  258. # [09:15] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Sep/0088.html
  259. # [09:15] <hsivonen> "I will reiterate (for the nth time) that it would be valuable for the
  260. # [09:15] <hsivonen> W3C to specify what a "browser" is,"
  261. # [09:15] <hsivonen> that would be interesting to watch
  262. # [09:16] <hsivonen> esp. when the last sentence of that paragraph seems to want to define Silk as "not a browser"
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  268. # [09:36] <annevk> mnot also seems to want to turn it into some kind of ISO thing, with certification and what not
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  270. # [09:36] <annevk> that does not strike me as a good idea
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  342. #
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  349. # [12:10] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  369. # [12:43] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  385. # [13:17] <yuno_> is colgroup/col good for anything other than setting the width of columns?
  386. # [13:17] <yuno_> using them for alignment doesnt seem to work if i add some class and use some css. the deprecated align attribute also doesnt do anything
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  389. # [13:19] <yuno_> i mean, nth-child is nice and all, but i kinda need something i can use today. is the only option to add a class to every cell?
  390. # [13:20] <yuno_> (i already did read the current specs, the old specs, mdn, and i also googled around for a bit)
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  403. # [13:56] <hsivonen> I pull from hg, start merging code and end up writing an email like this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JulSep/1747.html
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  408. # [14:04] <annevk> maybe for chunked we can force UTF-8?
  409. # [14:05] <annevk> not even look at anything else
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  412. # [14:08] <annevk> so instead of WebSQL with SQLite we will now have IndexedDB with LevelDB?
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  421. # [14:52] <hsivonen> what's LevelDB?
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  423. # [14:59] <beverloo> annevk, LevelDB is just the back-end we chose to implement IndexedDB on
  424. # [14:59] <beverloo> incognito mode still uses SQLite for it
  425. # [15:00] <beverloo> hsivonen, http://code.google.com/p/leveldb/, a fast key-value storage library
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  466. # [15:27] <annevk5> where is ms2ger?
  467. # [15:28] <annevk5> did anyone have a look at the new exception model?
  468. # [15:28] <annevk5> I wonder if I should roll it out in DOM4 and file some bugs on browsers
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  478. # [16:01] <annevk5> I guess heycam needs to be here
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  483. # [16:15] <espressive_> hey everyone
  484. # [16:15] <espressive_> Quick question, would an element with rel="help" and a title="Help text" make sense as a JavaScript hook for tooltips? Does not match the usage as described by the WHAT-WG (http://developers.whatwg.org/links.html#link-type-help) exactly, but close enough?
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  516. # [17:18] <annevk5> Is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/User_talk:Paolorte spam?
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  528. # [17:42] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  529. # [17:43] <annevk5> good morning dglazkov!
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  533. # [17:46] * myakura is about to say good night
  534. # [17:46] <dglazkov> annevk5: :D let me guess: you've suffixed yourself with 5 in honor of HTML5?
  535. # [17:46] * dglazkov is now known as dglazkov5
  536. # [17:46] <dglazkov5> hrm.
  537. # [17:47] <dglazkov5> mine looks more like jackson 5
  538. # [17:47] * dglazkov5 is now known as dglazkov
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  540. # [17:48] <myakura> wait!? are you guys moving back to a versioned model!?
  541. # [17:48] <divya> hahahahh
  542. # [17:48] <dglazkov> myakura: no, only for people.
  543. # [17:48] <divya> so wait if 5 of you suffix yourself with 5
  544. # [17:48] <divya> you would be the "html" 5
  545. # [17:49] <dglazkov> that sounds like something from tabloid headlines.
  546. # [17:49] <dglazkov> "the infamous html 5 is running amok, terrifying upstanding citizens"
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  548. # [17:50] * hasather is now known as hasather5
  549. # [17:50] <divya> "html5 wrecks homes and destroys marriages! Mayor screams for immediate imprisonment!"…
  550. # [17:50] <hasather5> sounds fun, I'm in
  551. # [17:50] <divya> hahahahahh
  552. # [17:50] <divya> hi5 hasather5
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  554. # [17:50] <hasather5> hi divya
  555. # [17:51] <divya> :)
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  560. # [17:58] <annevk5> help
  561. # [17:58] <annevk5> anarchy on the IRC channel
  562. # [17:58] <divya> you started it.
  563. # [17:58] <dglazkov> annevk5: works as intended.
  564. # [17:58] <divya> hahahah
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  566. # [18:01] <annevk5> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-xbl-observers
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  568. # [18:01] <annevk5> (the URL is a "joke")
  569. # [18:02] <dglazkov> annevk5: :)
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  580. # [18:24] <annevk5> I moved previous/next links down
  581. # [18:24] <annevk5> on the blog
  582. # [18:24] <annevk5> if anyone has other improvements let me know
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  586. # [18:42] <annevk5> oh yes
  587. # [18:42] <annevk5> my first W3C Recommendation
  588. # [18:42] <annevk5> it's on namespaces
  589. # [18:43] <annevk5> in CSS
  590. # [18:43] <annevk5> there's a lot of jokes there
  591. # [18:43] <divya> sgtm annevk5
  592. # [18:44] <annevk5> proof: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-namespace/
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  594. # [18:44] <divya> is this the shortest css spec ever?
  595. # [18:44] <annevk5> did I beat Hixie to it?
  596. # [18:44] <annevk5> oh CSS 2.1 was first
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  598. # [18:47] <erlehmann> CSS 2.1 shot first.
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  600. # [18:51] <GlitchMr> What actually @namespace does...
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  602. # [18:52] <GlitchMr> oh, i see
  603. # [18:52] <erlehmann> annevk5, usability comment: if prev/next links are at top, they do not change position.
  604. # [18:52] <erlehmann> you can quickly click through articles then
  605. # [18:52] <erlehmann> at bottom, less useful
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  607. # [18:55] <annevk5> hmm yeah
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  609. # [18:55] <annevk5> but if you are not reading, you're just wasting our bandwidth
  610. # [18:55] <divya> hahahah
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  704. # [22:09] <dglazkov> PSA: going on vacation until Oct 10 in 3 hours. Will attempt to stay offline. Wish me luck.
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  711. # [22:15] <gsnedders> dglazkov: Good luck.
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  732. # [23:15] <Hixie> document.alinkColor isn't specced
  733. # [23:15] <Hixie> did i overlook it or do we not need it?
  734. # [23:15] <Hixie> looks like at least firefox doesn't support it
  735. # [23:16] <Hixie> oh no nevermind
  736. # [23:16] <Hixie> it does
  737. # [23:16] <Hixie> i typoed it
  738. # [23:16] <annevk> all browsers have it
  739. # [23:16] <annevk> Opera / Firefox / Safari
  740. # [23:16] <Hixie> and IE
  741. # [23:16] <Hixie> k
  742. # [23:16] <Hixie> i guess i'll spec it!
  743. # [23:17] <annevk> funny how nobody notices
  744. # [23:17] <Hixie> oh wait i did spec it
  745. # [23:17] <Hixie> i was searching for the wrong capitalisation
  746. # [23:17] <Hixie> ok
  747. # [23:17] <Hixie> all is well with the world
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  749. # [23:18] <annevk> we should really have some kind of special IDL type for event handlers
  750. # [23:19] <annevk> this current syntax sucks for something that is used all over
  751. # [23:19] <Hixie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSVpBqOsC7o
  752. # [23:19] <Hixie> er, wrong channel!
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  777. # Session Close: Fri Sep 30 00:00:01 2011

The end :)