/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 01 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:07] <Hixie> rniwa: don't worry about delay, i often have month-long lag with dealing with stuff :-/
  8. # [00:07] <Hixie> sicking: pong
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  10. # [00:09] <sicking> Hixie: drats, i forget what i was going to ask :(
  11. # [00:09] <sicking> Hixie: well, since i have your attention, do you read bugzilla.m.o bugmail?
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  13. # [00:09] <Hixie> sicking: i read some of it. i have filters. i don't follow as many active people as i used to so i don't get as much as i'd like these days.
  14. # [00:10] <Hixie> sicking: if i'm cc'ed and the comment says "HTML5" or "WHATWG" or other similar keywords I tend to see it
  15. # [00:10] <sicking> Hixie: specifically https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=641148
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  17. # [00:10] <Hixie> didn't see that one, no
  18. # [00:10] <Hixie> looking now
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  20. # [00:12] <Hixie> henri's comment seems accurate
  21. # [00:13] <sicking> Hixie: well.. i don't have an opinion on the sg: rating
  22. # [00:13] <sicking> Hixie: but it does seem like having consistent <script> parsing no matter where the markup appears has lots of advantages
  23. # [00:13] <Hixie> it has advantages and disadvantages, sure
  24. # [00:14] <sicking> Hixie: though at this point I suspect the person to convince is Henri
  25. # [00:14] <sicking> ?
  26. # [00:14] <sicking> Hixie: what are the disadvantages?
  27. # [00:14] <Hixie> well, convincing henri is both sufficient and necessary, so probably, yes :-)
  28. # [00:14] <sicking> Hixie: also, *everything* has disadvantages, the question is how big they are
  29. # [00:14] <Hixie> disadvantages include the issues he listed
  30. # [00:14] <Hixie> like being able to take svg and put it in html and just have it work
  31. # [00:15] <Hixie> a new disadvantage here is that it would involve breaking compat with shipped browsers
  32. # [00:16] <sicking> Hixie: the SVG WG says that copy-paste of SVG should work just fine
  33. # [00:16] <Hixie> the SVG WG says a lot of things
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  35. # [00:16] <Hixie> doesn't mean they're true :-)
  36. # [00:16] <sicking> sure, but in this case i'd their experience over yours to be honest
  37. # [00:17] <Hixie> there's plenty of scripts that say &gt; instead of > and similar, deep inside a for loop
  38. # [00:17] <sicking> in SVG?
  39. # [00:17] <Hixie> in scripts in SVG or other XML
  40. # [00:18] <sicking> other XML doesn't matter here
  41. # [00:18] <Hixie> i'm sure authors would just put up with it if we made it so that such scripts would need changing
  42. # [00:18] <Hixie> but it _would_ mean that you can't just copy and paste
  43. # [00:18] <sicking> likewise they'd put up with it if they have to adjust the script when copy-pasting
  44. # [00:18] <Hixie> also, we'd have to change the CDATA thing
  45. # [00:18] <Hixie> anyway, as you said earlier, i'm not really the one to convince
  46. # [00:18] <sicking> ok
  47. # [00:18] <sicking> i'll chat with henri
  48. # [00:19] <Hixie> chat with abarth, too
  49. # [00:19] <sicking> yup
  50. # [00:19] <sicking> thanks
  51. # [00:20] <Hixie> seriously though, "the SVGWG said so" is no more convincing than "Hixie said so". if we're going to base this on what is compatible, then we'd need real data.
  52. # [00:20] <Hixie> not heresay or anecdotal evidence.
  53. # [00:20] <Hixie> (another difference would be comment parsing inside scripts, i wonder how many svg files have commented-out content in <script> blocks)
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  55. # [00:21] <sicking> well.. i suspect that the SVG WG has a lot more experience looking at the markup that various tools output
  56. # [00:21] <sicking> and so far most of the SVG which is generated, is generated using tools i bet
  57. # [00:22] <shepazu> sicking: it certainly is
  58. # [00:22] <shepazu> usually inkscape, sometimes Illustrator
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  60. # [00:23] <shepazu> I'm not convinced that just dropping SVG into HTML would necessarily work
  61. # [00:23] <sicking> especially when scripts are involved
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  63. # [00:23] <sicking> since the DOM will be very different
  64. # [00:23] <shepazu> not even all SVG content generated by Inkscape or Illustrator works in browsers
  65. # [00:23] <sicking> the <svg> element won't be the documentElement for example
  66. # [00:24] <shepazu> yes, a lot of SVG with script assumes that SVG is the root
  67. # [00:24] <shepazu> right
  68. # [00:24] <shepazu> not sure who said it would just work...
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  70. # [00:24] <Hixie> sicking: we've tried quite hard to make it so the DOM differences are minimised
  71. # [00:24] <shepazu> but I'm on the SVG WG, and I'm not at all confident about that
  72. # [00:25] <Hixie> sicking: btw i commented on the bug. i agree that it's a potential security risk, and i think henri underplays the risk. hopefully my comment will help.
  73. # [00:26] <sicking> Hixie: cool, thanks
  74. # [00:26] <Hixie> shepazu: when we first started working on adding svg parsing in html, the svg wg's most ardent request was that it be possible to take raw SVG files and paste them into text/html without modifications and have the parser handle it exactly as if it was SVG in XML
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  76. # [00:27] <Hixie> shepazu: a number of reasons were given, such as making sure that errors made in editing SVG in HTML wouldn't be accepted and thus "corrupt" the pristine SVG ecosystem, and making it possible for output from SVG tools could be dropped straight into HTML files without work.
  77. # [00:27] <shepazu> Hixie: yes, I think that was a reasonable request
  78. # [00:27] <shepazu> I don't know for a fact that that was accomplished, either in the HTML5 spec or in implementations
  79. # [00:28] <Hixie> at least the second part of that is only reasonable if one is confident that SVG content dropped into HTML would in fact just work
  80. # [00:28] <shepazu> there's also author education around how to write the script correctly such that it doesn't break… but that's not really an authoring tool issue, unfortunately… not many good tools for scripting SVG
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  84. # [00:47] <dbaron> TabAtkins, how stable is the to <side-or-corner> stuff for gradients in css3-images ?
  85. # [00:48] <dbaron> TabAtkins, (I've been asked to review a patch implementing it.)
  86. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> It's stable now. I'm not changing anything now. I plan in the near future to write an email explaining that I'm not changing anything about radial either.
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  96. # [01:29] <Hixie> didn't we decide, like, ten years ago, that the "$" syntax in selectors was a bad idea and :matches()/:has() were a better solution?
  97. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> I thought so, yes.
  98. # [01:32] <Hixie> someone should tell fantasai
  99. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> I plan to.
  100. # [01:32] <Hixie> excellent
  101. # [01:32] * TabAtkins is writing ALL THE EMAILS today.
  102. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> Fridays are often my most productive day, in terms of emails written.
  103. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> It's the promise of free beer at the end that does it.
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  105. # [01:35] <hober> indeed
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  142. # [03:38] <michaelw> HTML5 chapter 3.4 used to have a section on innerHTML, where'd that go?
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  145. # [03:50] <Hixie> michaelw: DOM Parsing
  146. # [03:50] <Hixie> michaelw: there's a link in the spec, search for [DOMPARS
  147. # [03:51] <michaelw> ah, thanks!
  148. # [03:51] <michaelw> Hixie: the fragment parsing algo is in both documents?
  149. # [03:51] <Hixie> fragment parsing is in HTML
  150. # [03:52] <Hixie> DOM Parsing references HTML and vice versa
  151. # [03:52] <michaelw> Hixie: DOMPARSING, sec 3.1 reads: "The following steps form the fragment parsing algorithm"
  152. # [03:52] <Hixie> (not sure why it was split out, but if people want to take over fixing parts of tehe spec, i'm not one to complain :-) )
  153. # [03:52] * Hixie looks
  154. # [03:53] <Hixie> that's a bit confusing, but it's not duplicated
  155. # [03:53] <Hixie> the DOM Parsing spec defines the "fragment parsing algorithm"
  156. # [03:53] <Hixie> HTML defines the "HTML fragment parsing algorithm", which the DOM Parsing one references
  157. # [03:54] <michaelw> ah, I see
  158. # [03:59] <michaelw> Hixie: nodes that come from the HTML fragment parsing algorithm have as owner document the document created for that algorithm, correct?
  159. # [04:02] <Hixie> come again?
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  161. # [04:04] <michaelw> the fragment parsing algorithm creates a new document in step 1, node that are then created by the parser with the fragment algo have that document as owner document.
  162. # [04:04] <Hixie> ah, then yes.
  163. # [04:04] <michaelw> hmm
  164. # [04:05] <Hixie> it's almost certainly changed by the caller of the algorithm though.
  165. # [04:05] <Hixie> e.g. the one in DOM Parsing does some adoption to a DocumentFragment from some other document, iirc
  166. # [04:06] <michaelw> yeah, thought so, but where is that written?
  167. # [04:06] <michaelw> aha
  168. # [04:07] <michaelw> DOM4 says "Nodes are implicitly adopted across document boundaries."
  169. # [04:07] <Hixie> yeah
  170. # [04:13] <michaelw> Hixie: the above appears to imply there is no way that a node ends up in one document and has an ownerdocument of another?
  171. # [04:13] <michaelw> er, what happened to my grammar
  172. # [04:14] <michaelw> I meant "ends up in one document and has a different owner document"
  173. # [04:16] <Hixie> correct
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  216. # [08:09] <annevk> is anyone working on fullscreen already?
  217. # [08:09] <annevk> maybe I should start doing that soonish
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  263. # [11:27] <annevk> Ms2ger, do you also think DOM4 should import all of the event loop stuff?
  264. # [11:28] <Ms2ger> If it's necessary, I guess yes
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  266. # [11:32] <annevk> I wonder if that can be done without getting some dependency
  267. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> I think someone at Mozilla was working on fullscreen...
  268. # [11:34] <Ms2ger> Did you see http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/dc.html, btw?
  269. # [11:35] <Ms2ger> tantek, probably
  270. # [11:36] <annevk> okay, that works for me, just someone has to do it already
  271. # [11:36] <annevk> the WebApps WG agreed?
  272. # [11:36] <annevk> why is this deviating from our normal CfC?
  273. # [11:37] <annevk> oh well, at some point that'll blow up
  274. # [11:37] <annevk> some pretty poor communication with the rest of the WG
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  276. # [11:43] <annevk> DOM4 has only a couple issues left
  277. # [11:43] <annevk> that's nice
  278. # [11:44] <annevk> should prolly look again into event handlers to see what the options are
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  346. # [17:01] <BenoitRen> Hi everyone.
  347. # [17:02] <BenoitRen> I made this page a couple years ago when the HTML5 dialog element wasn't deprecated yet: http://www.pscave.com/pso/script/battletraining.shtml
  348. # [17:03] <BenoitRen> The spec has since dropped the element and recommended a different way to mark up conversations. But it doesn't work for this instance.
  349. # [17:04] <BenoitRen> A large part of the game script doesn't consist of conversations, but of monologues, which are often given in parts. Like when you first talk to A, (s)he says X, and when you talk to him/her a second time, (s)he says Y.
  350. # [17:05] <annevk> You should probably change it still as <dialog> is going to mean something else
  351. # [17:05] <BenoitRen> Oh, I do want to change it. My problem is that I don't know how. :(
  352. # [17:06] <BenoitRen> As it's HTML4, I didn't actually use the dialog element, but dl along with its siblings.
  353. # [17:06] <BenoitRen> It's the same idea, of course.
  354. # [17:07] <annevk> If http://www.whatwg.org/C#conversations does not work for you could you maybe file a bug on the specification?
  355. # [17:08] <annevk> You can ask e.g. if an example can be added for your specific scenario
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  357. # [17:12] <BenoitRen> Yes, I guess I can do that.
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  362. # [17:24] <BenoitRen> Comment submitted. I hope it was sent, as I don't see a confirmation.
  363. # [17:25] <Ms2ger> BenoitRen, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14353
  364. # [17:26] <BenoitRen> Ms2ger: Thanks. :)
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  369. # [17:47] <annevk> thanks BenoitRen
  370. # [17:47] <BenoitRen> No problem, annevk.
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  381. # [18:38] <BenoitRen> I just remembered something else. Is there a guideline for marking up a message board? I've been struggling with that for ages.
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  402. # [19:52] <BenoitRen> Bye.
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  474. # Session Close: Sun Oct 02 00:00:01 2011

The end :)