/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 06 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> benschwarz: k
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> benschwarz: let me know if you ever run it more often than once a week :-)
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> benschwarz: i'll make my script not bother unless it's more than a week old
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> saves me some CPU
  7. # [00:01] <benschwarz> sure thing
  8. # [00:02] <benschwarz> just re-deployed it now :)
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  26. # [00:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about the sorting question, http://www.collation-charts.org/opensolaris/opensolaris.2008.05.en_US.UTF-8.html might be useful
  27. # [00:47] <MikeSmith> I don't know how to actually find/check the collation rules in the local environment
  28. # [00:47] <MikeSmith> would think it must be something under /usr/share/i18n/locales but no idea what
  29. # [00:48] <Hixie> i ended up just hard-coding it
  30. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> ok
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  53. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> Hixie, for future reference, on Debian Linux systems at least, the SPECIAL part of /usr/share/i18n/locales/iso14651_t1_common seems to be what ends up controlling collation for common symbols
  54. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> ...and uncommon ones, too
  55. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> ..
  56. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> Just now hearing the news about Steve Jobs
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  150. # [07:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: does http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6642&to=6643 have an effect on what the parser does? the "special" group is used for parsing, but does it matter in this case?
  151. # [07:41] <Hixie> i believe the answer is no, because they're void elements
  152. # [07:41] <Hixie> so in a sense we could have instead removed the void elements from the list
  153. # [07:42] <hsivonen> ok
  154. # [07:42] <Hixie> which i guess in a naive implementation might improve perf
  155. # [07:42] <Hixie> but in practice i presume everyone uses bits on the tag type id so it doesn't matter
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  181. # [09:40] * Dashiva wonders if <title> will soon become optional, what with browser after browser removing the title bar
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  189. # [10:33] <jgraham> Am I missing something, or is there no ambiguity at all in the interpretation of a string in the proposed .create() format? A string at the strat of a lsit is always a tag name. A bare string is always a text node.
  190. # [10:33] <jgraham> *start
  191. # [10:33] <jgraham> (also *list, but that is easier)
  192. # [10:35] <annevk> inside a list that is true
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  195. # [10:35] <annevk> the problem is with a list of lists, but we can avoid that I think
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  197. # [10:36] <jgraham> Where would there be a list of lists?
  198. # [10:37] <annevk> it depends on how the overall design turns out
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  200. # [10:38] <jgraham> Well yes… obviously
  201. # [10:38] <annevk> i think we can avoid it by having varargs
  202. # [10:40] <jgraham> Indeed
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  275. # [14:09] <hsivonen> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2011/10/05/a-HTML-Spaghetti-Western%3A-The-Serializer-The-Parser-and-The-Ugly-Blank-Lines
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  290. # [14:43] <annevk> hsivonen, he's having that fight with everything that defines an object model
  291. # [14:43] <annevk> hsivonen, e.g. CSS
  292. # [14:44] <annevk> an object model throws away information an editor needs, such as whitespace between attributes, order of attributes, etc.
  293. # [14:44] <annevk> I'm not sure why he can't accept that if you build a WYSIWYG editor that also has some kind of source editing you have to build a custom solution
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  297. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: validator.nu enhancement request from Jukka!
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  301. # [15:05] <karlcow> annevk: why? The choice could be just to have some rules for a certain class of products to ensure interop in between editors.
  302. # [15:08] <hsivonen> karlcow: it's more complicated than that
  303. # [15:08] <hsivonen> karlcow: depending on what level of source preservation you want
  304. # [15:08] <hsivonen> karlcow: for example, the DOM doesn't store the whitespace that was between attributes
  305. # [15:09] <karlcow> hsivonen: so you mean in case you do a round-trip browser/editor
  306. # [15:09] <hsivonen> karlcow: so when writing an editor, one should decide up front if it's going to be a DOM editor or a source-fidelity editor
  307. # [15:09] <hsivonen> karlcow: if you are using the DOM as the model but try to make a source-fidelity editor, there's going to be pain
  308. # [15:09] <karlcow> I guess humans are dealing with the physical organization of the markup not the dom
  309. # [15:10] <hsivonen> karlcow: I mean round-tripping aspects of the source that browsers consider meaningless or errors
  310. # [15:11] <hsivonen> I don't know how Dreamweaver does it, but clearly, they've designed for it from day 1
  311. # [15:11] <jgraham> I feel quite sorry for glazou really. He seems to be doing something hard and not that interesting with technology that makes it even harder.
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  318. # [15:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think editors are interesting and having DOM-based editors is worthwhile
  319. # [15:21] <hsivonen> jgraham: the problem is when user expections don't match the realities of the editor being DOM-based
  320. # [15:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't mean uninteresting as a problem space
  321. # [15:21] <jgraham> I mean "not a product many people are interested in"
  322. # [15:22] <jgraham> At least my perception is that that age of the dreamweaver-style editor is ending
  323. # [15:22] <jgraham> My perception could be wrong of course
  324. # [15:22] <jgraham> But I expect that on the low end people are going to use online contentEditable based tools
  325. # [15:23] <jgraham> and at the high end they will use either a text editor or some more fancy falsh-like thing that totally abstracts away the underlying markup
  326. # [15:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: why would Dreamweaver-style be ending?
  327. # [15:23] <jgraham> *flash
  328. # [15:23] * hsivonen doesn't know of other Dreamweaver-style editors than Dreamweaver itself
  329. # [15:24] <jgraham> Isn't BlueGriffon dreamweaver-style?
  330. # [15:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: not in my opinion :-)
  331. # [15:24] <jgraham> Why not? I am curious
  332. # [15:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: because it doesn't preserve errors in the parts of source that you aren't editing on the visual side
  333. # [15:25] <jgraham> Hmm, that is quite a technical distinction
  334. # [15:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: I believe that's a key selling point of Dreamweaver to a part of its audience
  335. # [15:25] <jgraham> In terms of markets I think they occupy a similar space
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  337. # [15:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think Dreamweaver's feature set could serve also the market that BlueGriffon's feature set can serve
  338. # [15:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: but not vice versa in the general case
  339. # [15:26] <jgraham> Right, it might not be as good as dreamweaver (in some respects), but it competes with it
  340. # [15:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: as I understand it, source preservation has been a marketable and marketed feature of Dreamweaver since forever
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  342. # [15:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: so BlueGriffon doesn't have one of the key features of Dreamweaver
  343. # [15:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: when BlueGriffon tries to approximate that feature of Dreamweaver, there's pain
  344. # [15:28] <jgraham> Making a product that lacks a key feature of the market leader for deep technical reasons in a market that I claim is being squeezed doesn't make my feel like BlueGriffon is in a *better* position than I previously believed :)
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  346. # [15:28] <jgraham> uh, that sentence changed focus half way through
  347. # [15:32] <annevk> karlcow, "some rules" you gonna write them up? ;)
  348. # [15:32] <karlcow> annevk: unrelated.
  349. # [15:33] <hsivonen> karlcow: in the CSS parsing and CSSOM case, throwing away unsupported rules is part of the fundamental operation of the CSS forward-compatible parsing rules
  350. # [15:34] <hsivonen> karlcow: yet, if you want Dreamweaver's source preservation features, you need not to throw away unsupported rules
  351. # [15:34] <karlcow> yup, understood, different class of products.
  352. # [15:35] <hsivonen> right, but there's really no need to standardized the internal data model of Dreamweaver, because it's not exposed to Web content
  353. # [15:35] <hsivonen> s/zed/ze/
  354. # [15:35] <karlcow> parsing for rendering and editing are two different use cases
  355. # [15:36] <karlcow> hsivonen: agreed. exposed to humans for web editing
  356. # [15:36] <karlcow> usability space
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  384. # [16:37] <annevk> you can't just wave "classes of products" around as a magic wand and solve problems karlcow
  385. # [16:40] * karlcow is still looking for his magic wand without understanding annevk
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  387. # [16:42] <jgraham> annevk: (I don't think karlcow was trying to solve the problem so much as understand it)
  388. # [16:43] <karlcow> thanks jgraham :)
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  399. # [17:16] <FlorianX> annevk: did you get the tweet? :-)
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  407. # [17:23] <annevk> I did
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  409. # [17:24] <FlorianX> ok
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  413. # [17:34] <bga_> TabAtkins in var example slide $main-color$. Is it error?
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  415. # [17:35] <jgraham> annevk: Should have answered on Google Plus
  416. # [17:36] <annevk> ?
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  418. # [17:39] <jgraham> Well if the question "did you get the tweet" is asked on irc, not using a third means of communication to reply is lame
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  421. # [17:39] <annevk> i'm boring, remember?
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  426. # [17:48] <timeless> heh
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  428. # [17:51] <jgraham> annevk: So you're having bacon cheeseburger and yoghurt this evening?
  429. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> about video@controls, why does it not make more sense for the video play/pause/etc. buttons to be displayed by default?
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  431. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> so in that case, the controls attribute would be more like spellcheck
  432. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> that is, you'd only need to specify it when you didn't want the controls displayed
  433. # [17:54] <annevk> jgraham, not sure about dinner, but I had delicious yoghurt
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  450. # [18:23] <karlcow> "Tolerating broken HTML writers" http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/Connolly/tolerated.html
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  453. # [18:24] <karlcow> " Please stop generating HTML in this style!" :)
  454. # [18:25] <karlcow> also http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/Connolly/errors.html
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  463. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I believe the argument was that <video nocontrols> would be used by people with JS-based controls, and these would break when you disable JS
  464. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> I see
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  470. # [19:11] <Hixie> MikeSmith: specifically, the lack of a controls="" attribute doesn't mean there's no controls
  471. # [19:11] <Hixie> MikeSmith: it has to be no controls="" attribute _plus_ JS disabled
  472. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> OK
  473. # [19:12] <Hixie> also, even with JS enabled, there can (should) still be controls e.g. in the context menu
  474. # [19:13] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  475. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> ah, yeah
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  482. # [19:23] <timeless> anyone here know how to get to the Desktop version of google calendar?
  483. # [19:23] * timeless hates sites that do discrimination
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  528. # [21:10] <rburton> would this be a good place to get webidl help?
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  537. # [21:22] <timeless> rburton: what's wrong?
  538. # [21:23] <rburton> just new to it mainly
  539. # [21:23] <rburton> is there a good tutorial/annotated reference?
  540. # [21:23] <rburton> but the main point is, i want an interface that has a string "uri" attribute, and a unlimited string-string hash "params" attribute
  541. # [21:23] <rburton> the spec seems to say that i can't do the hash bit
  542. # [21:24] <timeless> hash?
  543. # [21:24] * rburton this appears to parse widlproc dictionary Options {}; interface ShareItem { attribute DOMString uri; attribute Options options; };
  544. # [21:24] * rburton just discovered a new keybinding in irccloud
  545. # [21:25] <timeless> tab? :)
  546. # [21:25] <rburton> control-enter makes a /me
  547. # [21:25] <timeless> btw, do you have a spare invite for irccloud?
  548. # [21:25] <rburton> sure
  549. # [21:25] <rburton> email?
  550. # [21:25] <timeless> timeless@gmail
  551. # [21:25] <rburton> sent
  552. # [21:25] <timeless> thanks!
  553. # [21:26] <rburton> so in js i want an object with a "uri" string attribute, and a plain object "options" attribute that can contain arbitrary key-value pairs
  554. # [21:26] <rburton> but id like to do it "properly" in webidl so there are sane docs for that arbitrary bit
  555. # [21:29] <timeless> offhand, it seems that webidl could definitely use some more text explaining how it expects things to be used, and especially whether it covers this use case
  556. # [21:29] <timeless> i believe it does, but it seems like reasonable feedback to send to the list
  557. # [21:29] * timeless tries to use irccloud.com from a Torch
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  563. # [21:35] <timeless> shiny!
  564. # [21:35] <rburton> timeless: what is the best list for webidl feedback?
  565. # [21:35] <Hixie> webapps
  566. # [21:35] <Hixie> public-webapps@w3.org
  567. # [21:36] <Hixie> (it should say at the top of the webidl spec)
  568. # [21:36] <timeless> Hixie: should; doesn't :(
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  571. # [21:37] <timeless> also good feedback :)
  572. # [21:39] <timeless> sorry
  573. # [21:39] * timeless is getting the hang of irccloud
  574. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> "Palpable"? Really?
  575. # [21:48] <timeless> AryehGregor: context? :)
  576. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> timeless, html5.org/r/6640
  577. # [21:49] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you got a better word? :-)
  578. # [21:49] <Hixie> i'm running out of unique terms here
  579. # [21:49] <rburton> hehe
  580. # [21:49] <rburton> Hixie: thanks
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  582. # [21:51] <timeless> heh
  583. # [21:52] <timeless> "Experiential"? :)
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  585. # [21:56] <Hixie> too confusingly close to "experimental"
  586. # [21:57] <Philip`> If the conformance model is too complex to even come up with reasonable terms to describe it to people, maybe the model should be simplified, e.g. by removing the whole palpability should-level requirement entirely :-)
  587. # [21:58] <timeless> nah :)
  588. # [21:58] <timeless> Hixie: yeah, understood
  589. # [21:59] <Hixie> Philip`: i considered it, and may still do that. i think at a minimum it provides an interesting view into the language for our own purposes of sanity checking things.
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  591. # [21:59] <Hixie> the requirement itself is essentially just an evolution of HTML4's "paragraphs musn't be empty" rule
  592. # [22:00] <astearns> evident?
  593. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> Does IE not support innerHTML on tbody or something crazy like that?
  594. # [22:04] <Hixie> astearns: considered it, but its meaning is a little too much on the side of "obvious" than just "visible"
  595. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> . . .
  596. # [22:04] <timeless> AryehGregor: http://ajaxian.com/archives/innerhtml-gotchas
  597. # [22:05] <timeless> > After some searching it seems IE has inconsistent support for the insertAdjacentHTML method, and apparently for elements like TR and TBODY IE will throw an exception if the method is called on those methods.
  598. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> Wow, that's insane.
  599. # [22:05] <timeless> > We can read about this on good ‘ole MSDN: innerHTML property.
  600. # [22:05] <timeless> The important piece is:
  601. # [22:05] <timeless> The property is read/write for all objects except the following, for which it is read-only: COL, COLGROUP, FRAMESET, HTML, STYLE, TABLE, TBODY, TFOOT, THEAD, TITLE, TR.
  602. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> I hate IE.
  603. # [22:05] <timeless> of course, that link is dead
  604. # [22:06] <timeless> yay msdn
  605. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533897(v=vs.85).aspx
  606. # [22:06] <timeless> right, the comment at the end:
  607. # [22:06] <timeless> > "The property is read/write for all objects except the following, for which it is read-only: COL, COLGROUP, FRAMESET, HEAD, HTML, STYLE, TABLE, TBODY, TFOOT, THEAD, TITLE, TR."
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  609. # [22:06] * timeless wonders how it got lost from the body of the document
  610. # [22:07] <timeless> it's possible they removed that restriction by 10?
  611. # [22:07] <timeless> which vers of ie are you testing?
  612. # [22:07] * timeless has ie10 previews available if there's a testcase
  613. # [22:07] * timeless is *way* too lazy to write one
  614. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> 9.
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  621. # [22:29] <jgraham> Ms2ger: So why does WebIDL put attributes on prototypes? That doesn't seem to match non-gecko browsers or be very logical
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  625. # [22:36] * jgraham thinks we should introduce papal conformance conditions
  626. # [22:36] * timeless sighs
  627. # [22:36] * timeless read paypal]
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  630. # [22:40] <jgraham> timeless: It's OK, so does google
  631. # [22:40] <timeless> oh, i feel much better now, thanks :)
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  635. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I can only read the spec and complain when Gecko fails tests for matching it :)
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  637. # [22:54] * Ms2ger doesn't claim to understand WebIDL
  638. # [22:55] <timeless> heh
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  644. # [23:12] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Dammit. Now I will have to ask on public-script-coord
  645. # [23:12] <jgraham> I don't like that list :-|
  646. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> -webapps is fine too, and I read that one :)
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  648. # [23:17] <timeless> heh
  649. # [23:18] <jgraham> It is? I thought WebIDL was supposed to be discussed on public-script-coord so that the TC39 people could have a chance to get upset at things
  650. # [23:21] <Ms2ger> Exactly
  651. # [23:21] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96)
  652. # [23:23] <jgraham> Heh
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  656. # [23:27] <jgraham> sicking: I don't know why you said that the element.create / append proposal depends on knowing which strings are tags and which aren't. It doesn't
  657. # [23:29] <jgraham> In particular if we use the form [tagname, attributes, *children] there is no ambiguity
  658. # [23:29] * Quits: FlorianX (~Florian_S@p4FE2D6A8.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  659. # [23:29] <jgraham> a string at the head of a list is always a tag name. A string not at the head of a list is never a tag name
  660. # [23:31] <jgraham> It is true that appending multiple children to an existing node requires the use of append.apply
  661. # [23:31] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  662. # [23:31] <jgraham> If you have an array of templates
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  666. # [23:42] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  667. # [23:48] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:149:4:1b01:ccd9:3d8e:57c5:c2b6) (Quit: othermaciej)
  668. # [23:48] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  669. # [23:58] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  670. # Session Close: Fri Oct 07 00:00:00 2011

The end :)