/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 07 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:06] <smaug____> I know there is JS error console somewhere in Opera, but I can't find it
  9. # [00:06] <smaug____> ah, there is was..
  10. # [00:06] <smaug____> hard to find
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  18. # [00:13] <smaug____> does anyone know if it is possible to re-enable javascript: in the location bar in Opera?
  19. # [00:16] <Hixie> can one iframe in any way access a sibling iframe if the two iframes and their parent browsing context are in three different origins?
  20. # [00:19] <bga_> smaug____ f12
  21. # [00:19] <Hixie> to answer my question, per spec, yes.
  22. # [00:21] <bga_> Hixie iirc i can access only to {.frames} and {.name}
  23. # [00:21] <Hixie> window.frames === window
  24. # [00:21] <bga_> its gives me full tree
  25. # [00:21] <Hixie> but you can access window[n] which is what matters
  26. # [00:21] <bga_> hm
  27. # [00:21] <bga_> ok
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  29. # [00:22] <bga_> ah. {.length}
  30. # [00:22] <bga_> now i understand :)
  31. # [00:22] <smaug____> bga_: sorry, what does f12 do?
  32. # [00:23] <bga_> smaug____ enable js, flash, proxy etc
  33. # [00:24] <smaug____> bga_: I do have js enabled. I want to enable javascript: in the location bar
  34. # [00:24] <smaug____> currently I get just "Access to this port is disabled for security reasons"
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  127. # [05:37] <zcorpan> jgraham: why isn't it logical to have attributes on the prototype?
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  190. # [08:58] <jgraham> zcorpan: Attributes are properties of instances. Putting them on the prototype and using getter magic to return the value seems like a very muddy model that depends on implementation details
  191. # [08:58] <JonathanNeal> hiya
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  196. # [09:02] <zcorpan> jgraham: but it makes feature detection simpler for authors
  197. # [09:04] <jgraham> Well not if 3/4 browsers don't use the model
  198. # [09:04] <jgraham> Since you will have to feature detect different things in different places
  199. # [09:05] <jgraham> Although I would agree in principle if that wasn't the case
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  209. # [09:30] <zcorpan> so with authors > implementors, shouldn't we be moving to that model?
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  211. # [09:32] <hsivonen> I wonder what kind of evil situations I should test with HTML in sync XHR that can be tested relatively deterministically in an automated test...
  212. # [09:33] <hsivonen> I'm now mainly testing charset stuff and that scripts don't run
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  215. # [09:42] <annevk> <img> not loading?
  216. # [09:48] <hsivonen> annevk: oh yeah, I'm testing img, iframe, style sheet, video, object and script not loading
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  218. # [09:49] <hsivonen> and the onload attribute in the loaded file doing nothing
  219. # [09:49] <hsivonen> my sync XHR testing is now on the level "seems to work. good."
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  231. # [10:05] <jgraham> zcorpan: The point is that in the short term it makes things worse for authors. And in the long term it makes the mental model more confusing, although it will improve feature detection once we don't have to care about IE<11 (say)
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  248. # [10:53] <annevk> sicking seems very confused with the proposal
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  273. # [11:39] <hsivonen> annevk: which proposal?
  274. # [11:41] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-71-204-145-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  275. # [11:43] <annevk> oh sorry
  276. # [11:43] <annevk> the proposal for easier element creation
  277. # [11:46] * Joins: necolas (hidden-use@d154147.upc-d.chello.nl)
  278. # [11:57] <hsivonen> sigh. the reference maturity level issue just won't go away (now DAP and DOM4)
  279. # [11:58] <annevk> also see the geolocation list
  280. # [11:58] <jgraham> hsivonen: Making that issue go away would be admitting that the process is broken. Which it is. But there are still heads in the sand.
  281. # [11:58] <annevk> someone suggested referencing HTML4 for event handler attributes
  282. # [11:59] <annevk> trololol
  283. # [12:01] <hsivonen> Referencing HTML4 is even more sad than referencing DOM < 4
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  286. # [12:03] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  287. # [12:04] * smaug____ hasn't even started to look at all the append/element creation proposals yet
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  293. # [12:29] * hsivonen finds <!DOCTYPE NETSCAPE-Bookmark-file-1>
  294. # [12:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: does firefox use the html5 parser for importing bookmarks these days?
  295. # [12:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not yet
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  297. # [12:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that's why I'm looking at a file that has a doctype like that
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  299. # [12:45] <zcorpan> ok
  300. # [12:45] <jgraham> In unrelated news http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2011/10/07/ragnarok-css3-radial-gradients
  301. # [12:47] <annevk> yay for stig james arne et al
  302. # [12:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: cool
  303. # [12:48] <annevk> hmm
  304. # [12:48] <annevk> Opera Next says I'm using the latest snapshot
  305. # [12:48] <annevk> but I'm clearly not
  306. # [12:49] <hsivonen> annevk: the Ubuntu/Debian repo is also out of date
  307. # [12:49] <jgraham> annevk: They don't release the snapshots to autoupdate straight away
  308. # [12:49] <smaug____> hsivonen: still about parsing. Does the spec say that some elements can be moved in the DOM during parsing
  309. # [12:50] <hsivonen> smaug____: yes
  310. # [12:50] <jgraham> smaug____: s/can/must/
  311. # [12:50] <smaug____> hsivonen: I mean, are some elements really inserted to DOM and then moved to some other place?
  312. # [12:50] <hsivonen> smaug____: yes
  313. # [12:51] <hsivonen> smaug____: however, in the innerHTML case, per spec, that happens in the fragment that gets inserted but our optimization optimizes away the fragment so that it happens in the tree in that case
  314. # [12:51] <smaug____> right
  315. # [12:51] <smaug____> I
  316. # [12:51] <hsivonen> smaug____: which is why I suggested turning off the mechanism that turns notifications into MutationRecords when the fragment parser is running
  317. # [12:51] <smaug____> I'm thinking about mutations while parsing the page
  318. # [12:51] <hsivonen> and then faking the MutationRecord right after
  319. # [12:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks btw
  320. # [12:52] <hsivonen> smaug____: while parsing the page from the network, stuff can get moved around per spec
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  322. # [12:52] <smaug____> though, that all happens per spec...
  323. # [12:52] <smaug____> so if someone listens for mutations before the page is loaded, surprises are ok, I guess
  324. # [12:55] <hsivonen> smaug____: is the new mechanism so lightweight that reporting parser-made mutations is OK for perf?
  325. # [12:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks about what?
  326. # [12:55] <smaug____> hsivonen: well, it is up to the web app to decide whether to use it or not
  327. # [12:56] <jgraham> hsivonen: 05:42 < hsivonen> jgraham: cool
  328. # [12:58] <annevk> smaug____, should we really have mutations for the parser inserted elements?
  329. # [12:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: ah. you're welcome
  330. # [12:59] <smaug____> annevk: I'm not sure
  331. # [12:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: are you no longer in Sweden or is just your IRC not in Sweden?
  332. # [12:59] <smaug____> annevk: that is something I'm trying to figure out
  333. # [12:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: Just my IRC
  334. # [12:59] <hsivonen> smaug____: will the Skype extensions be able to use it on every page?
  335. # [13:00] <smaug____> I sure hope Skype isn't using mutation events anymore
  336. # [13:00] <smaug____> I somehow thought they moved to our internal mutationobserver thingie
  337. # [13:00] <smaug____> since skype extension is anyway a binary extension
  338. # [13:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: I am balancing out the fact that Hixie's IRC is in Norway :)
  339. # [13:06] <hsivonen> smaug____: ok. my main point is that parse-time perf can be affected for all pages if an extension can request to see the MutationRecords for all pages
  340. # [13:07] <annevk> smaug____, doesn't sound like a good idea
  341. # [13:07] * Joins: Cradam (~adam@unaffiliated/cradam)
  342. # [13:07] <smaug____> annevk: any particular reason why
  343. # [13:08] <annevk> cause you can already get to the result easily enough
  344. # [13:08] <smaug____> how ?
  345. # [13:08] <annevk> just wait until the parser is done
  346. # [13:09] * Cradam likes the version-less html idea
  347. # [13:09] <smaug____> (again, I don't really have opinion whether it should be possible get mutationrecords during parsing)
  348. # [13:10] <smaug____> annevk: well, if you have a huge page, like HTML spec, some script might want to decorate elements while the page is still loading
  349. # [13:10] <smaug____> basically initialize widgets or such during the page load
  350. # [13:11] <annevk> I think for those you should get mutations
  351. # [13:11] <annevk> I would expect the parser to use DOM methods that do not affect mutation observers
  352. # [13:12] <annevk> internal stuff
  353. # [13:12] <smaug____> I don't understand
  354. # [13:12] <smaug____> " I think for those you should get mutations" ... "use DOM methods that do not affect mutation observers"
  355. # [13:12] <annevk> everything the parser does uses internal methods that do not affect mutation observers
  356. # [13:13] <smaug____> for what should you get mutations ?
  357. # [13:13] <annevk> but if you have a script that while parsing does a call to insertBefore or some such that would affect them
  358. # [13:13] <smaug____> so it is not possible to initialize widgets during parsing
  359. # [13:14] <smaug____> I'm talking about widgets like <div foobar="element_with_foobar_attribute_is_a_widget">
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  361. # [13:15] <Cradam> eugh i hate those wierd attributes people use
  362. # [13:15] <annevk> for that we are going to introduce a dedicated mechanism
  363. # [13:16] <annevk> <div is=something> or some such, see the component model discussion
  364. # [13:16] <annevk> it seems bad if you need all the overhead of mutation observers just for that
  365. # [13:16] <Cradam> i also find it wierd how people use "" when they arent needed
  366. # [13:17] <bga_> Cradam ++
  367. # [13:17] <bga_> and close <td>
  368. # [13:18] <annevk> </td> being optional was a great idea
  369. # [13:18] <bga_> yes
  370. # [13:19] <Cradam> tables... who uses them other than for ecommerce
  371. # [13:20] <annevk> me
  372. # [13:21] <Cradam> annevk: seriously?
  373. # [13:21] <bga_> Cradam table layout is easy than div layout
  374. # [13:21] <Cradam> bga_: :O
  375. # [13:21] <annevk> Cradam, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-throw
  376. # [13:21] <Cradam> NEVER USE TABLES FOR LAYOUT!
  377. # [13:22] <bga_> :)
  378. # [13:22] <smaug____> tables are useful
  379. # [13:22] <annevk> or e.g. http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/07/matterhorn-tour
  380. # [13:22] <annevk> yeah, they're just annoying to author
  381. # [13:22] <smaug____> annevk: yes, I can see reasons to not fire create mutation records
  382. # [13:22] <Cradam> smaug____: yes for tabular data
  383. # [13:22] <smaug____> but for consistency they should be there...
  384. # [13:22] <smaug____> but I don't care too much
  385. # [13:23] <smaug____> I'm trying to get innerHTML + mutationrecords to work better first
  386. # [13:23] <smaug____> (in the implementation)
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  388. # [13:24] <Cradam> annevk: why do i need that
  389. # [13:24] * bga_ crying each time when write {document.createEvent() ...}
  390. # [13:25] * smaug____ needs to find time to implement event ctors
  391. # [13:25] <Cradam> i repeat the NEVER part of my comment about not using tables for layout!
  392. # [13:25] <annevk> Cradam, what?
  393. # [13:26] <Cradam> annevk: why do i need that link about DOM
  394. # [13:26] <annevk> because you asked whether I used tables for something other than ecommerce and I said yes and then you asked if I was serious so I decided to give some examples
  395. # [13:26] <hsivonen> annevk: why can't I set responseType on XHR before the state is OPENED?
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  397. # [13:27] <Cradam> ahh yes
  398. # [13:27] <Cradam> tables... who uses them other than for ecommerce and tabular data
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  401. # [13:27] <annevk> hsivonen, because open() resets a bunch of things
  402. # [13:27] <Cradam> tables... who uses them other than for ecommerce and tabular data (other than newbs who don't know better)
  403. # [13:27] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  404. # [13:27] <hsivonen> annevk: hmmkay. failed my intuition
  405. # [13:28] <annevk> hsivonen, we could make it work I suppose, it kind of depends on how people want this to work
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  407. # [13:28] <annevk> other than extensions there's not much love for XMLHttpRequest from people other than me
  408. # [13:29] <hsivonen> annevk: hey, I'm giving XHR some text/html love
  409. # [13:29] <annevk> technically that's an extension, but it's still great and appreciated :)
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  434. # [15:06] <hsivonen> hrm. ES5 String.prototype.trim() affects more than space, tab, CR and LF
  435. # [15:06] <hsivonen> boo
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  437. # [15:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: You won't liek any of the string stuff in ECMAScript
  438. # [15:07] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  439. # [15:08] <jgraham> It all depends on ever changing unicode standards
  440. # [15:08] <hsivonen> :-(
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  444. # [15:10] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, and of course we should make HTML number parsing depend on it as well!
  445. # [15:10] * Joins: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-0-48.adsl.inetia.pl)
  446. # [15:11] <hsivonen> Can ES5 or Mozilla-specific JS do 64-bit ints these days?
  447. # [15:12] <hsivonen> maybe I should pass 64-bit ints as stringified in JS
  448. # [15:13] <Ms2ger> { hi: ..., low: ... }?
  449. # [15:14] <smaug____> I don't recall 64 bit
  450. # [15:14] <smaug____> isn't Number 53 bits or something strange like that
  451. # [15:15] <bga_> Ms2ger i have choosed to have internal charset w/ EOL, a-z, a-Z, 0-9 and $#... its just look like stantdard ascii but i dont trust standards :) and i have abstract class for external charset which can convert string to internal charset and back, have 'isClass' fn like isLowerChar for transforming/parsing w/o convert to internal charset
  452. # [15:15] <bga_> i'll show you later
  453. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> Wasn't 53 bits how much SM allows pointers to use?
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  455. # [15:16] <hsivonen> smaug____: Number is a 64-bit IEEE 754 value per spec
  456. # [15:16] <bga_> hsivonen https://developer.mozilla.org/en/js-ctypes/js-ctypes_reference
  457. # [15:17] <Cradam> a[href="./"],a:link[href="./"] {} FTW
  458. # [15:18] <smaug____> hsivonen: yeah, but you can't express all the 64bit values using JS Number
  459. # [15:18] <smaug____> I mean 64bit int
  460. # [15:20] <hsivonen> bga_: thanks
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  463. # [15:22] <Cradam> bored and poor = not a good combo
  464. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> You could write specs
  465. # [15:26] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  466. # [15:26] <Cradam> Ms2ger: ...
  467. # [15:26] <Cradam> why would anyone respect specs that i write, its not like i have 10 years of experience or a phd
  468. # [15:26] <Ms2ger> Me neither
  469. # [15:27] <bga_> Cradam write spec and its will die in draft state :)
  470. # [15:29] <Ms2ger> There's a lot of stuff that still needs specifications
  471. # [15:36] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Pointers are 47 bits, I think
  472. # [15:37] <jgraham> I wonder how many people writing specs *do* have 10 years of experince and a PhD
  473. # [15:37] <Philip`> (64-bit doubles can store 53-bit integers losslessly)
  474. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> jgraham, all the people who got us DOM3? :)
  475. # [15:38] <Philip`> If spec writers had PhDs, surely they'd be more likely to write specs in LaTeX than in HTML
  476. # [15:39] <Cradam> also how will writing specs relieve boredom of poverty
  477. # [15:39] <Ms2ger> You have something to do, and Google might end up hiring you
  478. # [15:39] <smaug____> Ms2ger: not D3E
  479. # [15:39] <Ms2ger> Don't talk to me about d3e ;)
  480. # [15:40] * Joins: Telling (~simplicit@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk)
  481. # [15:40] <smaug____> Google, or Mozilla or Opera might hire you, perhaps even Microsoft
  482. # [15:40] <Cradam> *or
  483. # [15:40] <Cradam> baha google would never hire me
  484. # [15:40] <jgraham> smaug____: That's just mean
  485. # [15:40] <Cradam> smaug____: i would NEVER work for MS
  486. # [15:41] <Ms2ger> Apple?
  487. # [15:41] <bga_> Oracle :P
  488. # [15:42] <Cradam> Apple is also not high on my willing to have a job with them
  489. # [15:44] <hsivonen> when will epoch time as JS Number lose millisecond precision?
  490. # [15:44] <hober> Cradam: :(
  491. # [15:45] <Cradam> hober: why?
  492. # [15:45] <Ms2ger> hober is an Apple employee
  493. # [15:46] <Philip`> hsivonen: 2^53 msecs = 2^43 secs = quarter of a million years
  494. # [15:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok. good
  495. # [15:47] <Cradam> hober: i only mean that they sound like they have a very corporate environment, i would rather work for google or mozilla
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  497. # [15:49] <gsnedders> In other news, the HbbTV and OIPF specs are scary.
  498. # [15:49] * hsivonen looks up OIPF
  499. # [15:49] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No 64-bit ints, just 64-bit doubles.
  500. # [15:49] <hsivonen> Wikipedia doesn't know what OIPF is
  501. # [15:50] <gsnedders> Open IPTV Forum
  502. # [15:50] <hsivonen> Oh Open IPTV Forum
  503. # [15:50] <hsivonen> gsnedders: who is implementing those specs besides Opera?
  504. # [15:50] <hsivonen> a dozen WebKit ports?
  505. # [15:51] <gsnedders> http://www.mediatvcom.com/content.php?page=hbbtv&preview=true&lg=en
  506. # [15:51] <gsnedders> A lot of them are custom CE-HTML impls
  507. # [15:51] <Cradam> i think i have upset hober
  508. # [15:52] <hsivonen> gsnedders: custom CE-HTML impls as in not using a pre-existing Web engine?
  509. # [15:52] <gsnedders> Yeah.
  510. # [15:53] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the only browser vendors there that I've heard about are Opera, Access and ANT
  511. # [15:53] <hsivonen> I wonder how Web-compatible the non-Opera engines are
  512. # [15:54] <gsnedders> They aren't, pretty much.
  513. # [15:54] <hsivonen> gsnedders: who provides the content that these engines ingest? cable company extranets?
  514. # [15:54] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Pretty much. Sometimes widgets as well.
  515. # [15:55] <hsivonen> I wonder what the sales pitch for the non-Opera vendors is
  516. # [15:55] <gsnedders> These things do rather help our > 70% marketshare on TVs…
  517. # [15:55] <hsivonen> oh. the Comedia thing is said to be WebKit
  518. # [15:56] <gsnedders> I believe there are other WebKit based impls too.
  519. # [15:56] <Cradam> ie6 usage at 9% FTW
  520. # [15:56] <gsnedders> But certainly not with any large amount of development resources to practically have a good enough product to sell.
  521. # [15:57] <hsivonen> Recently, Poland joined Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark as a contry with < 1% IE6 usage share
  522. # [15:57] * hsivonen wonders how security patches work with TVs
  523. # [15:57] * hsivonen guesses they don't
  524. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Depends on the TV.
  525. # [15:58] <gsnedders> Some TVs have browsers in ROM, so they don't, at al.
  526. # [15:58] <hsivonen> Since our TV works, I've figured that there wouldn't be much of an upside to connecting it to the Internet and trying a software update
  527. # [15:59] <hsivonen> though I believe our TV doesn't have a browser
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  529. # [15:59] <hsivonen> IIRC, it came with legal stuff that suggested it has some Mozilla software in it. NSS probably
  530. # [16:00] <gsnedders> In general Opera-based TVs updates are entirely up to the vendor.
  531. # [16:00] <gsnedders> Because for a lot of them we merely ship an SDK to the vendor.
  532. # [16:00] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  533. # [16:00] <hsivonen> It would suck to start relying on a browser, find out that it has an XSS-enabling hole and not get a fix
  534. # [16:01] * hsivonen uses Firefox for TV browsing (Firefox running on a Mac Mini)
  535. # [16:02] <Cradam> hober: i am sorry
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  544. # [16:15] <zewt> i don't think i've ever seen Android update its browser either, except during a full OS update
  545. # [16:17] <Cradam> i don't understand the use of TV's
  546. # [16:17] <Cradam> in modern cyber space
  547. # [16:20] <gsnedders> zewt: Heck, my Android phone has known security bugs in it, because the vendor (HTC) didn't want to support a year old phone. :\
  548. # [16:20] * gsnedders gets tempted to get involved in web TV standards again, but doesn't really want to inflict that pain on himself
  549. # [16:20] <gsnedders> But they are such a mess. :\
  550. # [16:20] <Ms2ger> You could get involved with the IETF instead
  551. # [16:21] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Considerably less painful.
  552. # [16:21] <zewt> the browser, at least, should be updated by market like every other google-provided app--but I've never once seen that happen
  553. # [16:21] <gsnedders> zewt: Probably not because WebKit is a system library, and that's where the interesting bits lies.
  554. # [16:21] <gsnedders> *lie
  555. # [16:22] <gsnedders> Like, the browser itself is fairly uninteresting, and unlikely to be where any security issues are.
  556. # [16:23] <zewt> it's pretty astounding that Google didn't set up their mobile OS to allow updating the browser easily, and ship with a solid browser (android's browser is very ... not)
  557. # [16:23] <zewt> (tried developing simple touchscreen webapps supporting it; not fun at all)
  558. # [16:25] <hsivonen> zewt: Firefox and Opera Mobile to rescue
  559. # [16:26] <zewt> google should not be creating new old, unupdated, buggy browsers that almost everyone on a platform uses; we're just getting rid of one of those D:
  560. # [16:27] <hsivonen> gsnedders: what kind of holes?
  561. # [16:28] <zewt> i still havn't found a really reliable way to make a webapp go fullscreen on androidbrowser (eg. without the gigantic address bar)
  562. # [16:28] <zewt> google images seems to do it but I don't think I figured otu how
  563. # [16:29] <hsivonen> zewt: Google employees could start giving presentations where they call the Android default browser a "boat anchor browser" :-)
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  567. # [16:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: http://www.dailytech.com/88+Serious+Security+Bugs+Identified+in+Android+22+Froyo/article20060.htm
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  570. # [16:58] <smaug____> <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=8" /> mean that the web site requires IE8 mode, right?
  571. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> Looks like it
  572. # [17:01] <Cradam> smaug____: and why would you use it rather than just getting IE8 portable
  573. # [17:01] <smaug____> I'm not using it
  574. # [17:01] <smaug____> a web page is using it, and it would apparently actually break without it
  575. # [17:02] <Cradam> smaug____: check what it looks like with it turned off with your dev tools
  576. # [17:02] <Cradam> and report whether it breaks
  577. # [17:05] <hsivonen> smaug____: well, if you see that, you don't really know if it really requires the IE8 mode or if would work in IE9 mode, too
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  582. # [17:05] <Cradam> hsivonen: or you can press f12 and turn it off
  583. # [17:07] <smaug____> hsivonen: well, in this case I assume it would break in IE9 mode. The problem is what HTMLElement.prototype.onmouseenter = function() {} does
  584. # [17:07] <smaug____> Gecko and IE9 throws exception per spec
  585. # [17:08] <smaug____> but the web page doesn't expect that
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  588. # [17:20] <hsivonen> unsuprisingly, the Netscape bookmark format doesn't adhere to HTML vocabulary design patterns
  589. # [17:21] <hsivonen> there's a boolean attribute that takes the value "true"
  590. # [17:21] <hsivonen> there are also attribute names with underscores in them
  591. # [17:24] <timeless> hsivonen: Cable boxes are more exciting for Updates than TVs :)
  592. # [17:24] <timeless> at least TVs have a UI
  593. # [17:24] <timeless> but in general, security updates on embedded devices are a disaster
  594. # [17:24] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  595. # [17:24] <timeless> odds generally are that they don't secure the transport
  596. # [17:24] <timeless> and do a bad job of validating the update package
  597. # [17:25] <timeless> and yes, it's like Windows 9x, where you probably will have a better chance of being rooted before you can get your box updated :)
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  609. # [17:50] <JonathanNeal> mornin'
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  612. # [17:57] <JonathanNeal> Would anyone be interested in helping me edit diveintohtml5 for accuracy with present technologies?
  613. # [17:57] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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  618. # [18:08] <timeless> define edit?
  619. # [18:08] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  620. # [18:08] <timeless> i'm slightly willing to review documents that are less than 3 screens tall
  621. # [18:08] <timeless> (roughly under 2 printed pages?)
  622. # [18:11] <JonathanNeal> Well, if you could review some of the wording at http://diveinto.org/html5/ anywhere you please as little or as much as you please, it would be greatly appreciated.
  623. # [18:11] <timeless> it's easier for me to review in response to a specific request
  624. # [18:12] <timeless> so, i'll review the literal page you linked, you poke me on Tuesday for another page
  625. # [18:12] <timeless> ok? :)
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  629. # [18:14] <timeless> actually, that page is too bland :)
  630. # [18:14] <timeless> http://www.diveinto.org/html5/introduction.html
  631. # [18:14] <timeless> > But you can detect support for individual features, like canvas, video, or geolocation.
  632. # [18:14] <timeless> offhand, i think you /might/ want s/or/and/
  633. # [18:14] <timeless> > That’s an important part of it, but it’s not the whole story.
  634. # [18:14] <timeless> I personally do s/it's not/it isn't/g
  635. # [18:15] <timeless> > The HTML5 specification also defines how those angle brackets interact with JavaScript, through the Document Object Model (DOM).
  636. # [18:15] <timeless> i'm not sure about the <comma> there, i believe it's valid both ways, but i wonder if it's better without it
  637. # [18:16] <timeless> > Even Microsoft — rarely known for blazing the trail of standards support — will be supporting most HTML5 features in the upcoming Internet Explorer 9.
  638. # [18:16] <timeless> IE9 shipped, so that `will be` needs to be redone
  639. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> What happened to diveintohtml5.org?
  640. # [18:17] <timeless> Mark disappeared from the face of the earth iiuc
  641. # [18:17] <timeless> > HTML5 features like geolocation (Chapter 6) and video (Chapter 5) were first provided by browser plugins like Gears or Flash.
  642. # [18:17] <timeless> s/or/and/
  643. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> Really? Does anyone know the circumstances?
  644. # [18:18] <timeless> i don't, but there are some places that talked about it
  645. # [18:18] <timeless> i didn't spend the time reading it, i just filed it away as "i should remember that"
  646. # [18:18] <timeless> i'm not sure if it was the earth or the digital earth fwiw
  647. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/10/04/searching-for-mark-pilgrim/
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  650. # [18:20] <Cradam> timeless: mind making your speech easier to read
  651. # [18:20] <annevk> is he no longer working at Google?
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  653. # [18:21] <timeless> Cradam: sorry, please clarify?
  654. # [18:21] <timeless> (suggestions welcome)
  655. # [18:21] <timeless> ... i tend to write using w3 style scribe regexps (s///), which actually mean something to a scribe.pl script
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  657. # [18:22] <timeless> they tend to be easier than diff -u output :)
  658. # [18:22] <timeless> AryehGregor: ok, thanks for making me read that :)
  659. # [18:23] <timeless> JonathanNeal: anyway, that's as much time as i can allocate today
  660. # [18:23] <timeless> poke me Tuesday w/ another page
  661. # [18:26] <JonathanNeal> thanks timeless
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  664. # [18:30] <Cradam> timeless: yes well we kinda don't want to read regexps
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  667. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> Cradam, some of us are accustomed to it.
  668. # [18:32] <timeless> i have a couple of editing styles, i can switch to one of the others
  669. # [18:32] <JonathanNeal> So, is it "HTML 4" and "HTML5"? What's with the sometimes space?
  670. # [18:32] <timeless> i believe so
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  672. # [18:32] <timeless> google: HTML4 yields About 9,800,000 results (0.17 seconds)
  673. # [18:33] <timeless> google: "HTML 4" yields About 15,000,000 results (0.19 seconds)
  674. # [18:33] <timeless> I'm not sure where blame lies for the change
  675. # [18:33] <miketaylr> are we on "H:TML" or "HTML LS™" now?
  676. # [18:33] <timeless> it's possible that it's the Media
  677. # [18:33] <timeless> miketaylr: *sigh*, i'm sure i should recognize those references, but i don't
  678. # [18:33] <Cradam> i type HTML5 because it is more of a name than a version
  679. # [18:34] <miketaylr> timeless: oh latter is living standard, former is... i may have just made it up
  680. # [18:34] <timeless> yeah, i think part of it is that "HTML 4" really referenced the "HTML 4" specification
  681. # [18:34] <Cradam> HTML LS sounds cool
  682. # [18:34] * timeless has seen : notation *somewhere*
  683. # [18:35] * miketaylr recalls something as well but forgets
  684. # [18:36] <JonathanNeal> timeless: that was great, I made all the changes you mentioned
  685. # [18:36] <JonathanNeal> minus the or/and for around "browsers already support" where there wasn't an "or" to replace.
  686. # [18:37] <timeless> sorry, what's "browsers already support"? which line of context failed?
  687. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> Is there some way to get the time when the page has been fully laid out and is actually interactive?
  688. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> Programmatically.
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  690. # [18:39] * timeless thought gecko had an event for that
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  692. # [18:39] <JonathanNeal> timeless: nevermind, I found the "or" you were referring to.
  693. # [18:39] <timeless> do you want an event or a timestamp?
  694. # [18:39] <timeless> JonathanNeal: cool
  695. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> Either would do.
  696. # [18:40] <timeless> please feel free to respond like that indicating a failure, but preferably indicating which line i quoted and the regexp i specified
  697. # [18:40] <JonathanNeal> Is it wrong to say "HTML4". Should it be "HTML 4" ?
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  699. # [18:40] <timeless> JonathanNeal: it's 3:2 in favor of the latter
  700. # [18:40] <timeless> since the spec is called the latter, i believe it really should be
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  702. # [18:41] <timeless> probably a page explaining the names for HTML 3.2 / HTML 4 / HTML5 would be useful
  703. # [18:41] <JonathanNeal> timeless: but it's "HTML5" all together, yes?
  704. # [18:41] <timeless> you can stick it in an appendix
  705. # [18:41] <timeless> yeah
  706. # [18:41] <JonathanNeal> Yea.
  707. # [18:41] <JonathanNeal> Okay, cool.
  708. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> HTML LS makes me think of DOM LS
  709. # [18:44] <timeless> indeed
  710. # [18:44] <timeless> did you cry or tear your hair out?
  711. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> I'm used to worse than that ;)
  712. # [18:45] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
  713. # [18:48] <miketaylr> oh right, i remember. wasn't there a H:TML for HTML: The Markup Language at some point?
  714. # [18:49] <miketaylr> oh this guy, http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/
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  718. # [18:51] <sicking> jgraham: i probably misunderstood the proposal
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  720. # [18:51] <sicking> jgraham: will look at your library
  721. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> Don't, unless you want to poke your eyes out :)
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  733. # [19:06] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: it's just "HTML" :-)
  734. # [19:06] <JonathanNeal> Right.
  735. # [19:07] <JonathanNeal> Well, I was meticulous.
  736. # [19:07] <timeless> HTML5 is just the Media's Brand Name
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  751. # [19:39] <Cradam> its called a buzz word timeless
  752. # [19:40] <timeless> s/its/it's/ ;-), sure...
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  755. # [19:42] <JonathanNeal> :)
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  757. # [19:44] * timeless leaves
  758. # [19:44] <timeless> גמר חתימה טובה
  759. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> timeless, same to you.
  760. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> jgraham, so if I use innerHTML with escaping in that one place, instead of textContent 75,000 times, it drops the time until the load event from about 35s to about 7s.
  761. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> (in Chrome 15 dev)
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  763. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> In Firefox 8.0a2, it drops it from around 78s to 45s.
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  768. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> jgraham, while I agree that in general it's better to use textContent instead of doing escaping manually, it's justifiable to use less-safe techniques in cases where they provide a large enough performance increase.
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  770. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> FWIW, if I comment out your test suite and do function test(f) {try{f()}catch(e){}} and define assert_* as no-ops, it takes like one second to run the tests.
  771. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> So the time it's taking is basically all the test suite, not the tests.
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  773. # [19:52] <JonathanNeal> http://www.diveinto.org/html51/ is what I'm putting together thus far. It's juuuuust beginning.
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  777. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> jgraham, diff: http://pastebin.com/wbAazWRk
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  781. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> jgraham, additional proposed change: hide results by default if there are > 1000 rows. This reduces my real-world test-case to about 7 seconds in Chrome from 25 or so, from starting to load it until the page is usable.
  782. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> http://pastebin.com/YKdPRTem
  783. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> Of course, checking either of the boxes will freeze the tab for ten seconds or more.
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  789. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I pushed another performance change that should hopefully be unobjectionable. I'll wait for your feedback before pushing the other two.
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  799. # [21:07] <Cradam> one thing i love, PDF
  800. # [21:07] <Cradam> i love read-only files :P
  801. # [21:07] <Ms2ger> Philip`, so your PhD is done by now?
  802. # [21:08] <smaug____> AryehGregor: what is taking 35s in Chrome but 78s in FF ?
  803. # [21:08] * smaug____ would like to profile that
  804. # [21:08] <Ms2ger> The editcommands tests, I presume
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  806. # [21:11] <smaug____> hmm, that might involve editor. /me leaves testing to ehsan
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  808. # [21:11] <Ms2ger> Very much so
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  815. # [21:33] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Yep
  816. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> Good, then you can start looking at my bugs :)
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  818. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> smaug____, running 26,000ish tests in jgraham's test harness. I don't think it has anything to do with the tests themselves, it's all test harness overhead AFAICT.
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  820. # [21:33] * AryehGregor goes to dig up a stable URL for an example
  821. # [21:34] <smaug____> ah, it would be interesting to know what in the testharness causes that difference
  822. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> The exact URLs I'm using are works-in-progress, not useful for me to hand them out to anyone.
  823. # [21:34] <smaug____> I think I haven't profiled textContent
  824. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> smaug____, e.g., this takes over twice as long for me in Firefox as Chrome (will freeze Firefox briefly): http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/98671dcd5b1f/selecttest/Selection-collapse.html
  825. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> In that case it's less drastic, since it's only 4-5s in Chrome to start with, 9-10s in Firefox.
  826. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Beware, the version of testharness.js included with that will change. I'm in the middle of optimizing it.
  827. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> So if you want to profile properly, I suggest saving the page and all includes.
  828. # [21:38] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Hopefully :-)
  829. # [21:39] * Philip` needs to work through a backlog of things
  830. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I believe you do ;)
  831. # [21:40] <smaug____> AryehGregor: well, very briefly
  832. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> ?
  833. # [21:41] <smaug____> AryehGregor: that test takes like 5s here
  834. # [21:41] <smaug____> and the freeze is very short
  835. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> smaug____, I've discovered my CPUs are older and cheaper than most people around here. :)
  836. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Freezes for more like 10 seconds for me.
  837. # [21:41] <smaug____> my macbook is ancient
  838. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Well over a minute for longer test-cases.
  839. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> What CPU does it have?
  840. # [21:42] <smaug____> (I use macbook only for profiling. For other things I want reasonable UI)
  841. # [21:42] <smaug____> dunno what cpu
  842. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Anyway, obviously, Chrome doesn't freeze at all, except that one tab. One of the biggest reasons I use Chrome right now.
  843. # [21:43] <smaug____> 2Ghz core 2 duo
  844. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> I'm using a 2.6 GHz AMD 64 X2. So it's unsurprising that a Core 2 Duo is faster even at a slower clock speed, but a factor of two seems excessive.
  845. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  846. # [21:46] <smaug____> bah, Shark doesn't work
  847. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> What's Shark?
  848. # [21:47] <smaug____> the profiler on OSX
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  850. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> Ah
  851. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> .
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  870. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> jgraham, so with my additional two patches applied, Chrome seems to be spending most of its time on a) actually running the test content and b) doing hard-to-optimize-further things like doing the giant innerHTML set, and make_message/format_value.
  871. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> (I could probably optimize make_message/format_value some, but it's only like 10% of the profile at this point, so it's not really worth it.)
  872. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> I.e., I don't see any really low-hanging optimizations at that point.
  873. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Firefox is similar, but seems to do a bit worse -- it takes much longer on ancestor_windows for whatever reason, and maybe some others. Firebug's profiling is worse than Web Inspector's, though, so not sure.
  874. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> Well, let me correct that: I bet I could still massively optimize layout. But I don't have good tools for that.
  875. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> Hmm . . . it looks like if I defer layout, it takes much longer than if I do it right away.
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  877. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> Probably the "add a bunch of consecutive visible nodes to DOM" case is much more optimized than the "remove display: none from a bunch of existing nodes".
  878. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> So perhaps we don't want that patch.
  879. # [22:46] * AryehGregor tries to think what could possibly speed up layout here, but has no idea, since he doesn't know how layout works at all
  880. # [22:46] <AryehGregor> Other than having fewer things to lay out, naturally.
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  886. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> jgraham, consider my second patch (hide results by default if there are >1000 tests) retracted. It seems to do more harm than good.
  887. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> The innerHTML one still stands, though.
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  900. # [23:27] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/0131.html
  901. # [23:27] * annevk is somewhat surprised
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  904. # [23:44] * AryehGregor is only moderately surprised
  905. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> mpilgrim is a perennially surprising person.
  906. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> So it tends to dull over time.
  907. # [23:47] * Quits: wakaba__ (~wakaba@57.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  908. # [23:47] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@57.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  909. # [23:48] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  910. # [23:48] * Joins: scar2 (~scar2@unaffiliated/seoshark)
  911. # [23:49] * Parts: scar2 (~scar2@unaffiliated/seoshark)
  912. # [23:52] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Sigh. If we must have innerHTML stuff can we at least have a single escaping function
  913. # [23:55] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  914. # [23:56] * rniwa|awk is now known as rniwa
  915. # [23:58] <annevk> Hixie, you are not defining what happens when you set an event handler that is already non-null?
  916. # [23:59] <annevk> Hixie, or for that matter, what happens when you set a non-null event handler to null
  917. # [23:59] <Hixie> nothing happens (other than it gettings its new value)
  918. # [23:59] <Hixie> getting
  919. # Session Close: Sat Oct 08 00:00:01 2011

The end :)