/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-10 / end

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  51. # [03:04] <milan> hello
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  145. # [10:19] <jgraham> http://www.dartlang.org/
  146. # [10:20] <jgraham> "To run this code please use Chrome, Safari or Firefox (or, try anyway). IE9 support is coming soon."
  147. # [10:20] <jgraham> Thanks Google
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  151. # [10:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: what happened when trying to run it in Opera?
  152. # [10:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: do they not test in Opera or do they make it break in Opera?
  153. # [10:33] <hsivonen> either way is uncool
  154. # [10:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: I am told that it worked for other people but not for me
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  156. # [10:35] <hsivonen> I wonder if they ever considered sticking Dalvik into Chrome and reviving the Java DOM bindings
  157. # [10:36] <hsivonen> is there an explanation that says how Dart makes things better than using Java with GWT?
  158. # [10:37] <hsivonen> As a total knee-jerk reaction, having num as a data type instead of int seems pointless to me
  159. # [10:37] <hsivonen> (I didn't actually look up what num means.)
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  162. # [10:46] <Philip`> hsivonen: "Although you might expect int and double to be primitive types, they're actually interfaces that extend the num interface. This means that int and double variables are also nums."
  163. # [10:46] <Philip`> so it doesn't sound like "instead of int"
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  165. # [10:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: hmmkay.
  166. # [10:53] <hsivonen> maybe that makes sense
  167. # [10:54] <hsivonen> I'm generally suspicious of something that looks like hiding low-level numbers
  168. # [10:54] <hsivonen> maybe this isn't that sort of thing and only looks like it
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  175. # [11:02] <Philip`> hsivonen: I think it sort of looks like trying to be compatible with JS (so it's easier to learn the language and port code) by having a generic num type, while also letting people write better-performing code for an insufficiently clever compiler by explicitly annotating the types in integer-only code
  176. # [11:05] <Philip`> (Maybe also trying to be compatible with Java, to help Java programmers and Java code)
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  190. # [12:26] <Philip`> Oh, actually per http://www.dartlang.org/articles/optional-types/ it seems the whole type system (including double vs int vs num) is entirely pointless at runtime
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  193. # [12:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: whoa. what (if anything) is supposed to make Dart better for JIT perf than JS?
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  199. # [12:37] <Cradam> does anyone have a link to a good css normalise file?
  200. # [12:37] <divya> ?g normalize css @ Cradam
  201. # [12:37] <divya> oops no bot
  202. # [12:37] <Cradam> ok so you are saying google it
  203. # [12:37] <divya> http://necolas.github.com/normalize.css/
  204. # [12:39] <Cradam> eugh so many comments
  205. # [12:39] <Philip`> hsivonen: According to someone in #jsapi, the lack of prototypes might help
  206. # [12:40] <Philip`> (It looks like all objects have to belong to some statically-defined class)
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  209. # [12:43] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
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  211. # [12:44] <hsivonen> Philip`: I find it strange that integers in Dart are bignums instead of being close-to-hardware integers that overflow
  212. # [12:47] <hsivonen> Are integers in Python overflowing or bignums?
  213. # [12:47] <Cradam> ehh the person also uses spaces rather than tabs
  214. # [12:47] <Cradam> this guy doesn't know much about optimisation by the looks of it
  215. # [12:48] <hsivonen> Cradam: does tabs vs. spaces matter after gzip?
  216. # [12:48] <Cradam> a properly minified file can be faster than gzip
  217. # [12:49] <Cradam> because with gzip the browser has to uncompresss the file
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  220. # [12:49] <divya> hahaha Cradam really is that all you can find?
  221. # [12:49] <divya> to critize that is
  222. # [12:49] <Cradam> divya: well there are other things that i think are more minor
  223. # [12:50] <divya> i would think what you mentioned are already very minor
  224. # [12:50] <jgraham> hsivonen: They are automatically coerced to a larger type if they would overflow
  225. # [12:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok
  226. # [12:51] <necolas> cradam, where's your data to backup that claim about minify/gzip?
  227. # [12:51] <Cradam> divya: well i would never employ anyone who used spaces over tabs
  228. # [12:51] <necolas> Cradam: lol
  229. # [12:51] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
  230. # [12:51] <divya> Cradam: hahahahha
  231. # [12:51] <divya> srry you cant use html5boilerplate then
  232. # [12:52] <Cradam> i prefer to minify stuff myself rather than let an algorithm do it
  233. # [12:53] <hsivonen> whoa. there's a lot of boilerplate in html5boilerplate these days
  234. # [12:53] <divya> hsivonen: elaborate?
  235. # [12:53] <Cradam> i can use it, i choose not to
  236. # [12:54] <hsivonen> divya: jQuery, Modernizr, Google Analytics, Chrome Frame stuff
  237. # [12:54] <divya> hsivonen: yeah all defaults people use.
  238. # [12:55] <Cradam> lol you seriously use chrome frame
  239. # [12:55] <necolas> hsivonen: delete key friendly
  240. # [12:55] <divya> we removed a lot of others
  241. # [12:55] <hsivonen> necolas: I'm not complaining. just suprprised at the size of the boilerplate
  242. # [12:55] <necolas> it's not that big tbh
  243. # [12:55] <divya> ah but hsivonen analytics is hardly more than a line.
  244. # [12:55] <Cradam> chrome frame requires the user to have a plugin to view your page - NO THANKS
  245. # [12:56] <Cradam> *=
  246. # [12:56] <necolas> doesnt require
  247. # [12:56] <hsivonen> divya: analytics seems to be 6 lines plus 1 line of comment :-)
  248. # [12:56] <Cradam> necolas: oh, elaborate
  249. # [12:56] <tomasf> could be nice if html5boiler had a checkbox form that let you choose what features to include
  250. # [12:57] <necolas> tomasf: it does
  251. # [12:57] <divya> tomasf: there is http://initializr.com
  252. # [12:57] <divya> or use the custom form
  253. # [12:57] <Cradam> tomasf: yes thats what backspace is for
  254. # [12:57] <tomasf> divya: oh, nice
  255. # [12:58] <necolas> re chrome-frame, pretty sure we're gonna ditch the script (which sucks) in favour of a prompt.
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  258. # [13:00] <divya> yep
  259. # [13:00] <divya> just need to implement it
  260. # [13:04] <Cradam> what i want is not a prompt to install chrome frame but just a check to see if it is installed and if it is then use it
  261. # [13:05] <Cradam> oh
  262. # [13:06] <necolas> yeah we've always had that
  263. # [13:06] <Cradam> thats the default action
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  268. # [13:20] <Cradam> hmm thats a shame, chrome frame doesn't change IE's css stuff
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  274. # [13:23] <necolas> Cradam: really?
  275. # [13:24] <Cradam> well it didn't give me border-radius and box-shadow so i assume not
  276. # [13:26] <necolas> ah yes, seems so
  277. # [13:28] <divya> ryanseddon: ^ whats your view?
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  284. # [13:41] <smaug____> hmm, so why do they call it Dart and not Java-- (or perhaps Java++)
  285. # [13:42] <smaug____> (and I don't still understand the reasons for Dart)
  286. # [13:51] <jgraham> They should have called it WebJava to annoy annevk5
  287. # [13:53] * Philip` assumed the reasons were that Google developers like Java and classes for large-scale development, and V8 developers don't like JavaScript, so they made up their own language for their own goals
  288. # [13:53] <Philip`> (Also, designing languages is always fun)
  289. # [13:56] <smaug____> that is true, designing languages is fun
  290. # [13:57] <Philip`> If "hello world" programs turn into http://try-dart-lang.appspot.com/b/030iCprzxiLHwzM0fYRey0Cw5x4?cjY0NzIuMzUzODI0ODA3NDYxODYwNTUx for users of all browsers other than Chrome and cause terrible performance, then that's just a bonus
  291. # [14:01] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  292. # [14:05] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like the ES5 spec doesn't define "object literals" using the term object literal
  293. # [14:06] <jgraham> "Object Initialiser"
  294. # [14:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
  295. # [14:07] <hsivonen> and what's the deal with ES5 not using en-US as the spec language?
  296. # [14:07] <jgraham> What does it use? I thoughtAllen was a en-USE speaker. But maybe ECMA has funky rules
  297. # [14:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: it uses something that says initialiser instead of initializer
  298. # [14:08] <hsivonen> could be an artifact of the E in ECMA
  299. # [14:09] <jgraham> http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/EcmaRules.htm
  300. # [14:10] <hsivonen> HTML and CSS have made me weird in the way that when I write JS, I look at the ES5 spec
  301. # [14:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok.
  302. # [14:12] <hsivonen> smaug____: I don't really see why the delta between JS and Dart justifies a new language
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  311. # [14:41] <adtykfhyipoh> Hello
  312. # [14:42] <adtykfhyipoh> Hey everyone, I am new to whatwg. Call me [random letters]
  313. # [14:42] <tomasf> Hi dforyebfdaé
  314. # [14:43] * Joins: Kawner (~chuckhead@c-24-91-68-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  315. # [14:43] <Kawner> yo
  316. # [14:44] <adtykfhyipoh> sup tomasf
  317. # [14:44] * Quits: Kawner (~chuckhead@c-24-91-68-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  318. # [14:45] <Philip`> Hello סמשה
  319. # [14:45] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GKMMCX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  320. # [14:45] <adtykfhyipoh> Hey Phill when do people start joining this thing?
  321. # [14:45] <adtykfhyipoh> I am itching for conversation
  322. # [14:45] <adtykfhyipoh> and I need help with a web app :(
  323. # [14:46] <Philip`> People are already here but have nothing in particular to talk about
  324. # [14:46] <adtykfhyipoh> ok I've got one
  325. # [14:46] <adtykfhyipoh> who is here and how do you tell
  326. # [14:46] <Philip`> Your IRC client might have a list of names down the side of the screen
  327. # [14:47] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-63-43.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  328. # [14:47] <adtykfhyipoh> ok let's discuss this forum topic
  329. # [14:47] <adtykfhyipoh> http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4735&p=7482#p7482
  330. # [14:48] <adtykfhyipoh> I need some help
  331. # [14:49] <Philip`> I think you want the loop to be more like "for (i=1; i<=castles.x.length; i++){"
  332. # [14:50] <Philip`> Oops
  333. # [14:50] <Philip`> I think you want the loop to be more like "for (i=1; i<castles.x.length; i++){"
  334. # [14:50] <Philip`> ("<" instead of "==")
  335. # [14:50] <adtykfhyipoh> ok
  336. # [14:50] <adtykfhyipoh> I will give that a shot
  337. # [14:51] <tomasf> and unless you want to skip the first entry, you may want i=0
  338. # [14:51] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  339. # [14:52] <adtykfhyipoh> It worked! Thanks man!
  340. # [14:52] <adtykfhyipoh> It totally works thanks a lot
  341. # [14:53] <adtykfhyipoh> I literally joined last night but I will try to be a big help here
  342. # [14:53] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  343. # [14:54] <adtykfhyipoh> (I joined because I got kicked out of stackoverflow for asking to many dumb questions)
  344. # [14:55] * Joins: jonatasnona (~jonatas@lba.inpa.gov.br)
  345. # [14:57] <Philip`> One option would be to read some kind of book/tutorial/etc on general introductory JavaScript programming, since that should resolve a lot of dumb questions more efficiently than asking about them one by one :-)
  346. # [14:58] <adtykfhyipoh> well actually I really expierienced, just new to canvas.
  347. # [14:58] * Philip` doesn't know anything specific to recommend, though
  348. # [14:58] <adtykfhyipoh> I have been literally been doing javascript since I was nine.
  349. # [14:58] <Philip`> Your question about arrays and for loops is just general JS, nothing to do with canvas :-)
  350. # [14:59] <adtykfhyipoh> actually, my question was not about arrays it was about drawing on the canvas from an array.
  351. # [14:59] <adtykfhyipoh> also I haven't used many arrays anyways.
  352. # [15:00] <adtykfhyipoh> I am a php guy most of the time
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  391. # [17:07] <jgraham> What was the thing that people didn't like about postMessage(msg, ports, targetOrigin)?
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  401. # [17:40] <adtykfhyipoh> I'm back
  402. # [17:40] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193) (Quit: Leaving)
  403. # [17:40] <adtykfhyipoh> lol
  404. # [17:42] <adtykfhyipoh> anybody here?
  405. # [17:43] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
  406. # [17:43] <adtykfhyipoh> sup jarek
  407. # [17:44] <jarek> hi
  408. # [17:44] <_bga> adtykfhyipoh any questions or comments about specs?
  409. # [17:45] <_bga> plz dont flood
  410. # [17:45] <adtykfhyipoh> what do you mean flood? I am new to IRC in general.
  411. # [17:45] <adtykfhyipoh> btw I answer to [random letters] so you don't have to copy my name.
  412. # [17:46] <_bga> adtykfhyipoh its wrong channel for irc newbies
  413. # [17:46] <adtykfhyipoh> ok then I take it back I am an IRC pro
  414. # [17:47] <adtykfhyipoh> Do you just sit here and wait for someone to ask a question without conversation? That is not like any of the other channels I have visited
  415. # [17:54] <wilhelm> Yes.
  416. # [17:55] <webben> adtykfhyipoh: "Do you just sit here and wait for someone to ask a question without conversation?" Yes. (Actually this is how most of the channels on freenode work.)
  417. # [17:55] <zewt> people talk when people talk
  418. # [17:57] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  419. # [17:57] <adtykfhyipoh> ok then I guess I will join you.
  420. # [17:58] <adtykfhyipoh> I just joined WHATWG and I am hoping to contribute to the community a lot. I know a good lot about HTML5 and Canvas game development.
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  428. # [18:11] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  429. # [18:11] <jgraham> Apart from dglazkov. He brings unwelcome daily cheer regardless of whether anyone wants it
  430. # [18:11] <divya> HI dglazkov!!
  431. # [18:11] <divya> hahahahahh
  432. # [18:11] <divya> UNWELCOME!
  433. # [18:11] <divya> </3
  434. # [18:12] * dglazkov spreads cheer contagion on jgraham
  435. # [18:13] <jgraham> Yuck
  436. # [18:13] <dglazkov> :P
  437. # [18:17] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
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  457. # [18:35] <adtykfhyipoh> Hey guys I've got a quick question
  458. # [18:36] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@206-15-76-122.static.twtelecom.net)
  459. # [18:36] <adtykfhyipoh> dbaron I've got a question
  460. # [18:36] <adtykfhyipoh> can you answer?
  461. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> Not if you don't ask it
  462. # [18:36] <divya> hahahha
  463. # [18:36] <dbaron> adtykfhyipoh, how can I tell if I don't know what the question is?
  464. # [18:37] <adtykfhyipoh> well I will tell you
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  466. # [18:37] <adtykfhyipoh> I have a function in JavaScript, and said function needs to stop if a condition is true. How could I achieve this?
  467. # [18:37] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  468. # [18:37] <adtykfhyipoh> break; does not work because it is in a loop and that will stop the loop.
  469. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> Can you show code?
  470. # [18:38] <dbaron> return
  471. # [18:38] <adtykfhyipoh> return? I will try that
  472. # [18:39] <adtykfhyipoh> ok thanks return worked.
  473. # [18:39] <adtykfhyipoh> you guys rule
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  566. # [22:30] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
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  574. # [22:57] <michaelw> Hixie: at <http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#event-handler-event-type>, there's an empty item in the event handler processing algorithm (step 4)
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  580. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Did you ever come up with a better name than "superior parent"
  581. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> ?
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  613. # Session Close: Tue Oct 11 00:00:00 2011

The end :)