/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-12 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Oct 12 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:03] <rniwa> AryehGregor: webkit supports setPosition
# [00:03] <rniwa> AryehGregor: and setBaseAndExtent methods
# [00:03] <rniwa> AryehGregor: perhaps you may want to standardize either
# [00:04] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Hmm.
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# [00:44] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I'm fairly certain you're hitting some weird edge-case bug.
# [00:44] <gsnedders> Or at least, I'm utterly confused. :)
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# [00:49] <AryehGregor> rniwa, those are totally redundant with collapse()/extend(). WebKit should get rid of them, IMO.
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# [00:50] <AryehGregor> I don't want to standardize them when they're not useful at all and just clutter an API that's already redundant.
# [00:50] <rniwa> AryehGregor: not sure. setPosition seems useful when you want to set a collapsed selection
# [00:50] <AryehGregor> rniwa, how does it differ from collapse()?
# [00:50] <rniwa> AryehGregor: it seems too verbose to create a range and then remove all ranges and then add new range
# [00:51] <rniwa> AryehGregor: hm... collapse takes node and index?
# [00:51] <AryehGregor> rniwa, yes, but I only do that because IE doesn't support extend(). collapse()+extend() is only two lines.
# [00:51] <AryehGregor> rniwa, Selection.collapse does. Not to be confused with the totally different Range.collapse.
# [00:52] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, yeah, my tests are probably hitting some kind of edge case. I remember once before I tried debugging Opera test failures and found that moving the nodes I was selecting to the top of the document somehow fixed it.
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# [00:53] <AryehGregor> Could it have something to do with the fact that the nodes are created and then selected without any repaints/event loop spins in between?
# [00:53] <AryehGregor> Since selections in Opera are somewhat visual.
# [00:53] <AryehGregor> No, doesn't seem to be it.
# [00:53] <AryehGregor> Well, if you find an explanation, let me know.
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> I'd be happy to work around the bugs, since sometimes it's useful to see what Opera does.
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> (although I'm unlikely to change the spec solely because Opera does something, given the relevant market shares, it can still sometimes provide useful insight)
# [00:54] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I know vaguely what's going on in the code, but no idea how it gets into that state
# [00:55] <AryehGregor> I don't think it's just one issue, though. I get the impression that Opera's Selection implementation is sulky and likes to throw its hands in the air and give up if it gets slightly confused.
# [00:56] <gsnedders> The thing that's making addRange a no-op has nothing to do with the selection impl, though
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# [00:56] <AryehGregor> What does it have to do with? The Range implementation?
# [00:57] <gsnedders> Far lower-level window management stuff.
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> Oh.
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> So it's tied to display and not just the DOM?
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> WebKit seems to be like that too.
# [00:57] <gsnedders> No.
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
# [00:57] <gsnedders> (Or at least I don't think so.)
# [00:58] * gsnedders asks on IRC as to why it's in that state bug expects no answer until tomorrow
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# [00:59] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Possibly because the tests run on load and before the document is visible.
# [00:59] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, they run before load.
# [00:59] <AryehGregor> But so does my minimal test case, which works.
# [01:00] <gsnedders> s/on load/while loading/ was what I meant, really
# [01:00] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Possibly a race-condition as to when it first displays the frame.
# [01:00] <AryehGregor> Would make sense.
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# [01:03] <gsnedders> (As for what's visible, well, I'd say ask the person why wrote that comment, but I don't know how you can ask someone who is dead (Geir). :))
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# [01:03] <gsnedders> I'm guessing it means the obvious thing.
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> :(
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# [01:06] <gsnedders> (Nothing apart from the obvious thing really makes sense)
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# [01:17] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Really, seems to be exactly that.
# [01:20] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: (like, it is exactly that it's running before first-draw)
# [01:21] <Hixie> so right now the cue start time is defined as the time at which a cue becomes relevant
# [01:21] <Hixie> this works ok (though not great) for subtitle cues
# [01:21] <Hixie> but for chapter cues it's a bit weirder, since chapter titles aren't only "relevant" when you're watching the chapter
# [01:22] <Hixie> anyone got a better definition? other than the redundant "the cue start time is the time at which the cue starts"
# [01:22] <Hixie> (the latter seems a little too tautological)
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# [01:38] <TabAtkins> That seems fine to me,a ctually.
# [01:39] <mkanat> Is the timeline position at which the cue starts?
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# [01:54] <Hixie> foolip: yt?
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# [02:18] <AryehGregor> Hixie, you can just say "every cue has a start time" or something and treat its definition as self-evident. I mean, that's really equivalent to saying "the cue start time is the time at which the cue start", but it doesn't sound silly.
# [02:18] <Hixie> i went with something similar to that
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# [02:40] <jarek> Hi
# [02:40] <annevk> roc, hey, I wondered how likely it is Full Screen will drastically change
# [02:40] <jarek> is there any point in using SVGZ instead of SVG?
# [02:40] <jarek> it looks like even Chrome does not support it (at least not when used from CSS)
# [02:40] <annevk> roc, e.g. the suggested change of not having a pseudo-class but instead just rendering the specified element and descendants
# [02:41] <annevk> jarek, what is SVGZ?
# [02:41] <jarek> annevk: it's a file format
# [02:42] <jarek> annevk: a gzipped SVG file
# [02:42] <jarek> at least this is how Inkscape calls it
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# [02:42] <annevk> it seems browsers should be able to handle compression of SVG just as well as they should handle compression of HTML
# [02:43] <annevk> if you configure the headers right and such
# [02:45] <jarek> when I send SVG files with proper mime type I'm getting a lot of errors like this one:
# [02:46] <jarek> "Resource interpreted as Document but transferred with MIME type image/svg+xml"
# [02:46] <jarek> though they render perfectly fine (unlike SVGZ files)
# [02:49] <annevk> no idea what that means
# [02:51] <jarek> it's actually a warning, not error (it shows up in yellow in console)
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# [02:51] <jarek> I tried googling it but there are few results
# [02:52] <jarek> seems like SVG is not that popular on the web yet
# [02:53] <shepazu> jarek: from what I understand, depending on your server settings, you don't need to use .svgz
# [02:53] <shepazu> typically (IIUIC) the server will compress it for transmission anyway
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# [02:54] <jarek> shepazu: so if I send SVG files and my server is configured to use gzip compression then there would be no benefits in using SVGZ?
# [02:54] <shepazu> jarek: that is my understanding, yes
# [02:55] <shepazu> in fact, I've heard that it can even increase the number of transferred bytes
# [02:55] <shepazu> but I won't swear to that
# [02:55] <shepazu> it does save file size on the server itself, of course, if that's an issue
# [02:55] <roc> annevk: I don't think that's likely, since we've implemented that proposal
# [02:55] <roc> more or less as it is in the wiki
# [02:55] <jarek> is it a good idea to use SVG file as a sprite?
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# [02:55] <zewt> well, runtime compression is more expensive, but most production webservers can cache compressed files, i think
# [02:55] <TabAtkins> As good an idea as any other image format.
# [02:56] <TabAtkins> Relying on your server to do runtime gzip is completely fine and standard and simple.
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# [02:56] <jarek> I mean if I had embedded 100 PNG images inside single SVG then it would load much faster, right?
# [02:56] <zewt> and you want it doing that anyway; it makes a huge difference for HTML
# [02:57] <TabAtkins> jarek: You mean like, 100 <image>s?
# [02:57] <annevk> roc, okay, it did seem like a nice idea to me
# [02:57] <TabAtkins> No, that would be even slower (by a single request) than just using the 100 PNGs directly.
# [02:57] <roc> which idea?
# [02:57] <jarek> TabAtkins: yeah, I mean embedding, not linking
# [02:57] <TabAtkins> jarek: How are you embedding a PNG inside an SVG?
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# [02:58] <jarek> TabAtkins: uhm... I click "Embed all images" in Inkscape...
# [02:58] <jarek> TabAtkins: I have to investigate this more
# [02:58] <shepazu> base64 encoding, I think
# [02:58] <zewt> ew
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# [02:58] <TabAtkins> Ew indeed. ^_^
# [02:58] <zewt> i wonder how efficient deflate is at compressing base64
# [02:58] <jarek> yeah, I suspect it inserts the binary data directly into SVG file
# [02:59] <TabAtkins> Well, using a single SVG with 100 base64-encoded images will almost certainly be faster than 100 individual images.
# [02:59] <shepazu> useful if you want a single file
# [02:59] <jarek> I remember reading somewhere that you can use base64 even inside CSS
# [02:59] <TabAtkins> jarek: Yup, data: urls are just fine in pure CSS too.
# [02:59] <zewt> heh it's pretty good
# [02:59] <zewt> 1048576 /dev/urandom -> 1416501 base64 -> 1076454 base64.gz
# [02:59] <shepazu> TabAtkins: I'm going to be in the valley tomorrow night through saturday, if you have time to hang out
# [03:00] <jarek> TabAtkins: but there won't be any image rendered on the screen until the whole file with 100 images is downloaded, right?
# [03:00] <jarek> or would the images show progressively?
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# [03:00] <TabAtkins> jarek: All-at-once. But a single slightly-larger download is usually *significantly* faster than 100 individual downloads.
# [03:03] <annevk> roc, of just laying out the element and its descendants and not worrying about ancestors
# [03:03] <annevk> roc, it would make any animations easier I imagine
# [03:04] <annevk> roc, I had another question, why does the parent browsing context Document need to be full screen if one of its child browsing context Documents is full screen?
# [03:04] <roc> that's a fairly violent change to CSS
# [03:04] <roc> and the layout engine
# [03:04] <roc> and creates various issues for the CSSOM etc
# [03:05] <annevk> okay
# [03:06] <roc> annevk: if the parent Document is not fullscreen, I'm not sure how the child could be fullscreen
# [03:06] <roc> unless you have magic to rip the child document out and display it apart from the parent document
# [03:07] <roc> that has similar problems to "just laying out the element and its descendants and not worrying about ancestors"
# [03:07] <roc> such magic is not necessary
# [03:10] <annevk> so if you invoke fullscreen on some iframe descendant element
# [03:10] <annevk> does that also set styles for the iframe element itself when you go full screen?
# [03:10] <roc> yes
# [03:10] <roc> the iframe element is the fullscreen element in its document
# [03:11] <annevk> including all its ancestor iframes?
# [03:11] <roc> right, all the way up
# [03:11] <annevk> ah okay, that works
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# [03:22] <dbaron> annevk, should I reserve constants for SUPPORTS_RULE and DOCUMENT_RULE in http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/cssom-constants or should I wait?
# [03:22] <annevk> dbaron, please go ahead
# [03:22] <annevk> dbaron, and thanks for the update!
# [03:22] <dbaron> (and see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0388.html for a bit of a mess we'll need to fix)
# [03:23] <dbaron> annevk, WebKit uses different constants for KEYFRAMES and KEYFRAME than what they wrote in the spec
# [03:23] <dbaron> I just followed the spec
# [03:23] <erlehmann> jarek, i use data uris in css.
# [03:23] <dbaron> annevk, your wiki actually followed webkit rather than the spec, but I just changed it to follow the spec
# [03:23] <annevk> dbaron, I noticed, wfm
# [03:24] <jarek> erlehmann: but isn't this an overkill?
# [03:24] <annevk> dbaron, if WebKit wants to change that around they better speak up I guess
# [03:24] <jarek> erlehmann: how can you find anything in CSS file if there huge chunks of binary data?
# [03:24] <TabAtkins> jarek: Tell your editor not to wrap lines in CSS files.
# [03:24] <erlehmann> jarek, i am in the process of optimizing a page that had about 100 http requests for small decorative stuff. no, it is not.
# [03:25] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, jarek, last one i used was data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAQAAAAABCAYAAAAxWXB3AAAAAXNSR0IArs4c6QAAADdJREFUOMvt00ENACAMBMGtATThjJzAmil/Dg08SfoYCRO2D+DW2ieqYIynt0my2Z7MI8FaGCkupysHEkVP6dUAAAAASUVORK5CYII=
# [03:25] <erlehmann> that is not much.
# [03:25] <erlehmann> (background gradient png)
# [03:25] <TabAtkins> Oh man, you really do mean "small".
# [03:26] <dbaron> hmmm, should I give jdaggett 13 for css3-fonts? :-)
# [03:26] <erlehmann> indeed. and the requests held up the page.
# [03:26] <erlehmann> dbaron, what does “13” mean here?
# [03:26] <dbaron> just a number
# [03:26] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: Constants for CSSRule.
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# [03:28] <dbaron> oh, wait, he already put 11 in the spec
# [03:28] <dbaron> I can fix this
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# [03:31] <dbaron> wait, two different specs took 11
# [03:32] <annevk> anarchy
# [03:33] <TabAtkins> I blame tyou, annevk.
# [03:35] <erlehmann> wat
# [03:36] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Oh, my usage is completely unimportant.
# [03:36] <TabAtkins> IGNORE ME.
# [03:36] * annevk wonders if TabAtkins has seen the series "Ideal"
# [03:37] <TabAtkins> annevk: Never heard of it.
# [03:37] <annevk> there's a charater there that uses that phrase
# [03:37] <TabAtkins> I usually think of the Observer from Venture Brothers when I say it.
# [03:37] <erlehmann> dbaron, how can two different specs have the same number?
# [03:37] <erlehmann> do constants work that way?
# [03:38] <dbaron> erlehmann, by mistake
# [03:38] <erlehmann> yeah, but how does it … err, work?
# [03:38] <dbaron> TabAtkins, could you reply to the email I just sent, then?
# [03:38] <erlehmann> or did you notice it right away?
# [03:38] <dbaron> erlehmann, neither has been implemented yet
# [03:38] <erlehmann> oh, okay
# [03:38] <erlehmann> that i understand
# [03:38] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Already did! Woo!
# [03:39] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I think jdaggett might have beaten you
# [03:39] <dbaron> TabAtkins, don't end up both using 14 now!
# [03:39] <TabAtkins> We shall continue politely vacating each integer until infinity.
# [03:40] <TabAtkins> At which point I will use infinity and he will use infinity+1.
# [03:41] <erlehmann> then “hark! a vagrant” will make a story out of it
# [03:41] <erlehmann> or wait, let me shoop something together
# [03:41] <erlehmann> before going to sleep
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# [04:08] <annevk> kind of odd how the HTML WG references WHATWG revision numbers
# [04:08] <annevk> no trust in CVS?!
# Session Close: Wed Oct 12 04:14:52 2011
#
# Session Start: Wed Oct 12 04:14:52 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [04:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [04:17] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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# [04:36] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, history will remember you fondly http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/pics/zeichnungen/cssconstants.png
# [04:37] <annevk> haha
# [04:37] <annevk> more comics please!
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# [04:39] <MikeSmith> heh
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# [04:40] <MikeSmith> great depiction of Tab
# [04:40] <annevk> so I booked in that Avatar hotel and tried getting W3C rate
# [04:40] <MikeSmith> looks exactly like him
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# [04:40] <heycam> haha, awesome
# [04:40] <annevk> initially I was just "Anne van Kesteren" and had to pay $1,007.43, now it's "ms. Anne van Kesteren" and $985.52
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# [04:41] <annevk> is the W3C discount really 20 bucks?
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# [04:41] <annevk> because that's a pretty sad negotiated discount, if any
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# [04:41] <erlehmann> annevk „ms“ ?
# [04:42] <annevk> erlehmann, rest of the world has a hard time understanding the Netherlands
# [04:42] <erlehmann> i do not know a language in which that is shorthand for discount
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# [04:43] <annevk> oh no, it's just that when they made an update to my reservation they set my gender as well
# [04:43] <erlehmann> but anne is a male name. and a female name.
# [04:43] <erlehmann> i see.
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# [04:44] <erlehmann> though i wonder why they store gender at all.
# [04:44] <annevk> oh I see what happened
# [04:44] <annevk> initially I had a night for 80 bucks
# [04:44] <annevk> now they made that 150 bucks
# [04:44] <annevk> and lowered some other nights with a few bucks
# [04:45] <erlehmann> wat
# [04:45] <annevk> awesome
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# [04:46] <erlehmann> i do not understand a thing
# [04:47] <erlehmann> annevk, have fun stories about gender confusion? or do people just accept their error when they get the different pronounciation?
# [04:48] <erlehmann> i knew an anne who wrote it änne, with diacritical marks. to make sure everyone knew how to pronounce it.
# [04:53] <erlehmann> night
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# [04:55] <dbaron> is it really pronunced änne?
# [04:55] <Hixie> annevk: don't encourage them to use cvs, i'll never be able to work out what's going on then :-P
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# [05:30] <jacobolus> thanks all for the talk slides at http://fronteers.nl/blog/2011/10/fronteers-2011-awesome
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# [05:30] <jacobolus> bruce wins for best title
# [05:31] <paul_irish> hahaha
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# [05:39] <jacobolus> also, I like http://infrequently.org/11/fronteers/fronteers.html#6 :p
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# [05:53] <paul_irish> superfluous quotes
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# [05:57] <annevk> dbaron, depends on how you pronounce "än" I guess :)
# [05:57] <dbaron> annevk, like Händel or länder in German?
# [05:58] <annevk> ah, no
# [05:59] <annevk> it's more like the "a" in "ah"
# [05:59] <annevk> an-ne
# [05:59] <dbaron> that's what I thought
# [06:03] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: http://www.xanthir.com/talks/2011-10-06/ is not rendering very well here
# [06:04] <jacobolus> either in chrome or safari
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# [07:05] <annevk> Hixie, so if we want bindings declarative and we don't want XML syntax anymore, do we want changes to the HTML parser?
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# [07:48] <Hixie> annevk: maybe
# [07:49] <annevk> seems like if you have a separate document for your bindings you don't really want <body> and <head> there and such
# [07:52] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-binding-components
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# [10:18] <foolip> Hixie, I'm here, but I assume you are not.
# [10:20] <annevk> TabAtkins, could have a per-property default type for attr()
# [10:20] <annevk> TabAtkins, but then I'm not sure having attr() is really that useful
# [10:20] <annevk> mixing markup & style = bad
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# [10:48] <hsivonen> annevk: major apps have moved on from mixing markup and style to generating both with script so that they mix all three
# [10:50] <annevk> point being?
# [10:52] <hsivonen> annevk: that "mixing markup & style = bad" focuses on mixing that has been superceded by even more mixing
# [10:55] <annevk> not universally
# [10:55] <hsivonen> true
# [10:56] <hsivonen> speaking of markup and style, epub readers are an interesting time warp
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# [10:57] <hsivonen> epub readers are like from the time when Lynx and Mosaic roamed on earth
# [10:57] <hsivonen> as far as markup and style go
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# [12:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it turns out that it's audio that sucks in Firefox on Android--not VP8 perf: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=693905
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# [16:40] <bga_> http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html
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# [16:53] <jgraham> Fun fact: Opera has it's own special dark matter from Unite applications
# [16:54] <Ms2ger> Ah, finally :)
# [16:56] <Ms2ger> Anyone have opinions on isElementContentWhitespace, btw? Kill it? Keep it? Meh?
# [17:00] <jgraham> My opinion is somewhere on the "meh" part of the spectrum
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# [17:58] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
# [17:59] <timeless> hsivonen: cute
# [17:59] <timeless> grr
# [17:59] <timeless> NoScript shows an Opera icon for hsivonen 's WebM video
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# [18:00] <timeless> which clearly means that Opera conquered the webm type on this computer..
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# [18:05] <zewt> opera took a bunch of media extension associations when i installed it recently
# [18:05] <zewt> bizarre and quicktime-esque
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# [18:17] <timeless> yeah, i think i saw you complaining
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# [18:36] <zcorpan> 's' and 'd' are next to each other on a qwerty keyboard. that would theoretically make it pretty easy to typo 'id' as 'is' and vice versa. however, i didn't find a lot of instances of is= with google code search.
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# [18:40] <zewt> random musings? :)
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# [18:50] <Ms2ger> Assumed related to the xbl thread
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# [19:19] <smaug____> so, does anyone here actually like Dart?
# [19:19] <smaug____> and if so, why?
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# [19:20] <Ms2ger> Of course!
# [19:20] <Ms2ger> Google knows what's good for you, even if you don't!
# [19:22] <smaug____> huh, DOM bindings for Dart are silly
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# [20:07] <jgraham> smaug____: Oh, I thought their plan was to replace DOM with Some Other API
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# [20:08] <bga_> smaug____ aeveryone have rights to make your own wrapper
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# [20:09] <smaug____> so?
# [20:09] <jgraham> bga_: It sucks to be Not Google if they make a wrapper that they don't test in other browsers and implement natively in Chrome
# [20:09] <jgraham> That hasn't happened yet ofc
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# [20:10] <bga_> oh
# [20:10] <bga_> but Google want remove js too, replace to Dart + NaCl
# [20:10] <bga_> new standards!
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# [20:11] <Ms2ger> bga_, interesting definition of "standard"
# [20:12] <bga_> jgraham may be they wants to make Chrome as browser for intranet
# [20:12] <timeless> Ms2ger: the wonderful thing about standards...
# [20:12] <bga_> and will go away from internet
# [20:12] <timeless> > . The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from.
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# [20:16] <bga_> Ms2ger btw my view of ideal dom api is var div = doc.Div(){id: 'foo', style: doc.Style(){position: eStylePos.ABSOLUTE, left: 10, top: 10} }
# [20:16] <bga_> no new
# [20:16] <Ms2ger> Not mine, obviously
# [20:17] <bga_> Ms2ger and el.beforeClick._add(_fn) el.beforeClick._del(_fn)
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# [20:25] <Hixie> foolip: i cced you on the relevant bug
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# [20:34] <TabAtkins> jacobolus: You have to give it like 10 seconds, because I wait for onload before hooking up the JS, and some of the iframes take a little while.
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# [20:36] <TabAtkins> annevk5: Yeah, I mentioned that possibility in the telcon this morning. Seems like a lot of overhead for little benefit.
# [20:36] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: okay, in safari I waited minutes, and now it's at this state: http://imgur.com/JJ6E8
# [20:37] <TabAtkins> That should not take minutes. It should take maybe 10 seconds.
# [20:37] <TabAtkins> That is the correct "loading" appearance, though.
# [20:38] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: in chrome, it loads and turns blue, but then as I arrow through, each slide disappears halfway through trying to appear, so I get to read a nice blank blue screen
# [20:38] <jacobolus> there's clearly stuff moving around, etc., but I can't really read it
# [20:38] <TabAtkins> Um, blue?
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# [20:41] <jacobolus> oh, hmm
# [20:41] <jacobolus> https://raw.github.com/LeaVerou/Incrementable/master/incrementable.js 405s
# [20:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah, something's wrong with your connection. That loads <1s for me.
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# [20:44] <jacobolus> it loads fine in a separate page
# [20:45] <jacobolus> I guess it loaded in chrome too. not sure what's wrong there
# [20:45] <jacobolus> I've got a "Unsafe JavaScript attempt to access frame with URL http://www.xanthir.com/talks/2011-10-06/ from frame with URL http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/08/mozelement/. Domains, protocols and ports must match."
# [20:45] <TabAtkins> That should be irrelevant.
# [20:46] <jacobolus> http://i.imgur.com/AJX1P.png
# [20:47] <TabAtkins> That's all kinds of crazy. I don't have that color anywhere in my document.
# [20:47] <jacobolus> in firefox the first page loads, and then the rest are just blank gray
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# [20:51] <TabAtkins> Oh, hm, you're right. Somehow the scroll position isn't being set correctly.
# [20:53] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: in firefox, trying to load that incrementable.js file, I get an error that <!DOCTYPE html> isn't valid javascript after the server returns 301 and sends https://github.com/LeaVerou/Incrementable instead
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# [20:55] <bga_> oh. github has becomed much faster
# [20:55] <bga_> nice
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# [20:57] <jacobolus> hm, actually maybe that's not what it sends, dunno. in any event, all the javascript ends up broken somewhere along the line, and then the slides stop working :)
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# [21:04] <Hixie> Ms2ger: why http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13877 ?
# [21:05] <Ms2ger> Why not? :)
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# [21:05] <Hixie> well because we're not the text/plain spec
# [21:06] <Hixie> so really if a UA wants to, i dunno, embed notepad to handle text files, who are we to disagree?
# [21:06] <Ms2ger> Is that the one part of the web you aren't speccing? ;)
# [21:06] <Ms2ger> I don't think embedding notepad without creating a document as described would be web-compatible
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# [21:07] <Hixie> yeah, that's probably true
# [21:07] <Hixie> i guess this stuff only applies to html uas anyway
# [21:07] <Hixie> but then again, there's not any real difference to saying "must" or "should"
# [21:07] <Hixie> since a UA could just pretend it's not an HTML UA when it comes across a text/plain file
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# [21:08] <Hixie> then again, it couldn't do that _and_ handle it in iframes...
# [21:08] <Hixie> so i guess it makes sense to have must
# [21:08] <Hixie> ok
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# [21:10] <Ms2ger> And then I don't have to argue about the tests
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# [21:34] <Ms2ger> An extra word, a missing word... Same thing, really :)
# [21:34] <Hixie> :-)
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# [21:55] <TabAtkins> annevk5: You around? What "other specifications" could make the extension requirements?
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# [22:01] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, the ones that define the @-rule
# [22:02] <Ms2ger> partial interface CSSWhatever { const MY_AT_RULE = 11; }
# [22:02] <TabAtkins> I don't understand how they can define the wiki as being the required extensibility mechanism.
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# [22:02] <Ms2ger> The wiki is just a list of pointers to specs that define extensions
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# [22:05] <TabAtkins> Shrug. Seems easier to just define the wiki as normative.
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# [22:06] <Ms2ger> But then you've got a normative wiki page
# [22:06] <TabAtkins> Yes?
# [22:06] <TabAtkins> HTML has several already.
# [22:07] <Ms2ger> If that's the fight you want to fight, sure :)
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# [22:08] <Ms2ger> Also, how high on your todo list is the scary messages on obsolete specs? :)
# [22:08] <TabAtkins> I need to do that sometime soon.
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# [22:11] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Why do you ask?
# [22:11] <Ms2ger> Just that I want it to happen :)
# [22:11] <TabAtkins> Ah. Well, the WG resolved to do it, so it's completely up to me at this point.
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# [22:19] <annevk> TabAtkins, a normative wiki page doesn't really have the same effect as the partial interface construct afaict
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# [22:20] <annevk> though I guess it's "clear enough"
# [22:21] <bga_> hm. plz ppl say me why UA dont add unknown properties to cssom and many ppl are forced to make own css parser
# [22:21] <bga_> some CSSUnknownRule will be nice
# [22:22] <bga_> w/ string contains not parsed rule
# [22:22] <TabAtkins> bga_: There was discussion about this not long ago on www-style.
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# [22:22] <Ms2ger> bga_, use glazou's
# [22:23] <bga_> TabAtkins and result?
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# [22:23] <TabAtkins> It's not a good idea.
# [22:23] <bga_> :(
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# [22:24] <annevk> still might be nice to have something akin data-* for CSS properties
# [22:24] <TabAtkins> Yes.
# [22:24] <TabAtkins> I think we should use exactly that name: data-*
# [22:24] <annevk> but given how the CSS parser is defined it seems rather tricky to get the details correct
# [22:25] <TabAtkins> Hmm? I wouldn't think so. You'd still have to obey the generic grammar, but that's really loose.
# [22:26] <TabAtkins> Basically you can take anything that's a space, comma, or slash separated list of numbers, dimensions, keywords, strings, or functions.
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# [22:27] <erlehmann> what exactly would you want?
# [22:27] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: ?
# [22:28] <erlehmann> i do not understand how „data-“ and CSS would come together.
# [22:28] <annevk> e.g. data-t: x tralolol /**/ whatev ;
# [22:28] <annevk> what is its string value?
# [22:28] <erlehmann> so how would that be used?
# [22:28] <annevk> and how does that follow from the CSS parser?
# [22:28] <TabAtkins> The idea is that selectors + the cascade is a pretty useful model for assigning data to elements, so we could define an author-extensible set of properties that can take anything and mean nothing.
# [22:29] <erlehmann> like with fonts, only more general?
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# [22:29] <erlehmann> like assigning the name of a font is?
# [22:29] <TabAtkins> annevk: cssText is defined generically (as much as it's defined at all).
# [22:29] <bga_> annevk just get all string between : and ;
# [22:29] <bga_> or : and }
# [22:29] <annevk> TabAtkins, well yeah, that's a bug
# [22:29] <TabAtkins> annevk: Really? Why?
# [22:29] <annevk> TabAtkins, defining cssText however is easy for properties with normal values
# [22:29] <annevk> because you just serialize those values
# [22:30] <TabAtkins> I mean, your example is just three keywords and a comment.
# [22:30] <annevk> but if you don't know the value, you cannot serialize it
# [22:30] <bga_> annevk serialize as-ai
# [22:30] <annevk> bga_, CSS doesn't work that way
# [22:30] <bga_> *is
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# [22:30] <TabAtkins> If you restrict it to specifically the five data types I mentioned, it's easy and still extremely useful.
# [22:30] <bga_> ++
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# [22:31] <annevk> TabAtkins, yeah that might work
# [22:31] <bga_> TabAtkins and custom bnf grammar
# [22:31] <TabAtkins> Hmm. I wonder if it would be possible to do calc() under that regime.
# [22:31] <annevk> TabAtkins, though we don't have functions currently
# [22:32] <bga_> for your own rules
# [22:32] <bga_> it will be like edsl :)
# [22:32] <bga_> in css
# [22:32] <TabAtkins> annevk: Hm? FUNCTION is a token in the core grammar.
# [22:33] <TabAtkins> {ident}(<any>), plus whitespace, once you combine the token and the grammar.
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# [22:33] <bga_> hm
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# [22:34] <bga_> TabAtkins => we can make interface CSSUnknownRule { CSSAst cssAst }
# [22:34] <bga_> not cssText
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# [22:35] <TabAtkins> It's not bad just for technical reasons. It's also bad for practical reasons.
# [22:35] <dbaron> hmmm, if an edit Hixie just made for a w3.org bug is wrong, should I reopen the bug or reply on the whatwg mailing list...?
# [22:35] <TabAtkins> It's a good thing for it to be painful to invent your own syntax.
# [22:35] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Either works.
# [22:40] <dbaron> ok, reopened http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13915
# [22:40] <annevk> yeah, data-* would be kind of last resort
# [22:41] <TabAtkins> I don't think data-* is bad. Inventing your own properties, though, interferes with our ability to mint new properties in the future.
# [22:41] <TabAtkins> Similarly, inventing your own values for existing properties.
# [22:41] <annevk> I never really considered that a viable option
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# [22:42] <bga_> TabAtkins its will gives right for authors to extents css standards, make css flexible and extendsible
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# [22:42] <TabAtkins> bga_: That is *very explicitly* something we do *not* want to give to authors.
# [22:43] <TabAtkins> annevk: That's the end result of directly exposing "invalid" properties, which is why I mention it.
# [22:43] <bga_> ok. not standards
# [22:44] <TabAtkins> bga_: We do not want to make CSS author-extensible in a way that makes it hard for the WG to extend it in the future.
# [22:44] <TabAtkins> If there are safe ways to make it extensible, like data-* properties, that's fine.
# [22:44] <TabAtkins> This is similar to how HTML defines the data-* attributes rather than allowing authors to mint whatever new attributes they want.
# [22:44] <bga_> TabAtkins ok. force authors to use data- prefix
# [22:45] <TabAtkins> And how the component model is proposing that components must start with x-, rather than being some arbitrary element name.
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# [22:45] <bga_> but i must have right to inject own subparser in css parser and own rule in cssom
# [22:46] <TabAtkins> I don't see how that follows.
# [22:46] <TabAtkins> That would be a nightmare, actually.
# [22:46] <bga_> TabAtkins it will true extensible browser
# [22:46] <bga_> TabAtkins i can patch dom prototypes
# [22:47] <bga_> i can register new protocols
# [22:47] <bga_> can create new html elements
# [22:47] <bga_> next - new css rules
# [22:47] <RobbertAtWork> haha, the CSSRule.register() suggestion was inevitable
# [22:47] <bga_> :)
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# [22:48] <TabAtkins> Minting your own data-* properties is fine. You can then read them from script and do what you want. There's no need for anything further (and I don't think it even makes sense to go further).
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# [22:56] <annevk> https://raw.github.com/gist/933cc4f7df97d553ed89/24386c6a79bb4b31fb818b70b34c5eab7f12e1ff/gistfile1.txt is quite a fun read
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# [22:58] <Peter-> https://plus.google.com/112678702228711889851/posts/eVeouesvaVX
# [22:58] <Peter-> same message, got some comments as well
# [22:59] <jgraham> The way CSS people always talk about "The WG" makes it sound very sinister
# [22:59] <TabAtkins> At least we're not a cabal.
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# [23:00] <jgraham> You're way more of an actual cabal than whatwg every has been
# [23:00] <jgraham> *ever
# [23:00] <TabAtkins> But we're not *called* a cabal.
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# [23:02] <jgraham> Well it is apparently legitimate to be one if you brand it with the W3C logo, so no one complains
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# [23:03] <TabAtkins> Now you've got it.
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# [23:41] <annevk> "What we really need is Strict Mode for the DOM: The possibility to completely re-invent all of the DOM from scratch."
# [23:41] <annevk> I wonder when we stopped thinking that quirks mode was a bad idea
# [23:41] <annevk> Also, from http://www.dartlang.org/articles/improving-the-dom/ it does not seem like Dart is re-inventing the DOM
# [23:42] <annevk> It just introduces some different names for the same concepts
# [23:43] <TabAtkins> annevk: Quirks mode is bad for different reasons than "let's rename the DOM!" is.
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# [23:43] <TabAtkins> It involves parsing differences, CSS layout differences, etc.
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# [23:43] <annevk> It's bad because mode switching like that is bad
# [23:44] <annevk> With the epitome being the IE versioning model
# [23:44] <TabAtkins> No. Mode switching is expensive. Quirks mode is bad for more reasons than just mode switching.
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# [23:44] <TabAtkins> Javascript strict mode is a mode switch that we're okay with.
# [23:45] <annevk> You might be, I think it's quite silly
# [23:45] <TabAtkins> A mode switch is, eventually, the only answer to "shit sucks forever".
# [23:45] <bga_> annevk ++
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# [23:46] <TabAtkins> Either you mode switch, or you have duplicate functionality that can be used at the same time, or you just stick with the sucky stuff forever.
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# [23:46] <TabAtkins> I think those are the only three choices.
# [23:47] <annevk> Mode switch is duplicate functionality too
# [23:47] <TabAtkins> Yes, but the old functionality is hidden and in the unicorn future can be eventually removed.
# [23:47] <annevk> that sounds like crock
# [23:48] <annevk> I'm not sure why we would start believing that now
# [23:48] <TabAtkins> Even if we cant' remove it ever, having everyone opt-in to the new stuff makes newer code easier to understand, at least.
# [23:48] <annevk> what Google seems to be advocating is pretty much XHTML2
# [23:48] <TabAtkins> Where eventually the definition of "newer" is "everything that anyone cares about".
# [23:48] <annevk> minor improvement with major cost
# [23:48] <TabAtkins> I haven't mentioned Dart at all, and am not talking about it.
# [23:48] <TabAtkins> It's irrelevant.
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# [23:49] <annevk> I was not talking about that either
# [23:49] <TabAtkins> My mistake, then. Anytime someone mentions Google at the moment, they're talking about Dart.
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# [23:50] <jgraham> TabAtkins: "Dart ... it's irrelevant" - is that the official position ;)
# [23:50] <TabAtkins> Google has no official position. Ever.
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# [23:50] <jgraham> Uh huh
# [23:51] <paul_irish> haha
# [23:51] <Philip`> Is the official position that it has no official position?
# [23:51] <annevk> paul_irish, the jQuery thing was a joke right? I wasn't sure
# [23:51] <TabAtkins> We don't have an official position on that.
# [23:51] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yes, it was.
# [23:51] <jgraham> annevk: That looks quite like reinventing the DOM to me
# [23:51] <jgraham> I mean sure it has the same concepts
# [23:51] <paul_irish> annevk: yea
# [23:52] <jgraham> But a totally different API
# [23:52] <annevk> if you rename a few things, but you keep the event, node, range, exception model around you are not reinventing anything
# [23:52] <annevk> you are just making things more confusing for authors
# [23:53] <annevk> oh, right, in Dart I use .elements, not .children
# [23:53] <annevk> such a win!
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> annevk: You're completely ignoring the fact that even just the *naming* of the DOM is horribad and confusing for authors.
# [23:53] <bga_> longer :(
# [23:53] <jgraham> Well it also makes things worse for implementors that they don't bother to test with
# [23:53] <smaug____> and Dart+DOM seems to manage to make naming even worse
# [23:54] <TabAtkins> Having unique names for DOM collections different from the rest of the platform is bad. Making them all collections is good.
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# [23:54] <TabAtkins> Having nearly a dozen DOM searching methods is bad. Having one, which we know from experience people love to use, is good.
# [23:54] <TabAtkins> Etc.
# [23:54] * Philip` thought Strict Mode wasn't about adding any features or syntax or renaming anything or reinventing anything, it was just about enforcing that you don't use certain dodgy features
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# [23:55] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Yeah, but it helps pave the way for new features less painfully.
# [23:55] <jgraham> Just dealing with the language as JS is likely to be bearable because JS engines are relatively small and not that buggy. Having it also layer new stuff on top of DOM practically means that there will have to be lots of spcial casing for different browsers in the generated JS which means lots of breakage
# [23:56] <annevk> TabAtkins, sure, simplicity is good, but it's not groundbreaking enough to do away with the old
# [23:56] <TabAtkins> annevk: I disagree. The pain of millions of authors struggling with the old mistakes is significant.
# [23:57] <annevk> most authors hardly deal with the DOM so that seems somewhat overstated
# [23:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah, because it's so sucky that everyone uses libraries.
# [23:57] <TabAtkins> Are you using that as an argument that we don't need to fix the DOM?
# [23:58] <annevk> I'm saying that what you are saying is not true
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# [23:58] <TabAtkins> How, precisely, is it not true?
# [23:58] <annevk> I do think we should simplify certain constructs as should be evident from my www-dom emails
# [23:59] <bga_> looks like wine that implemets bugs oа win32 too
# [23:59] <TabAtkins> Authors *do* use the DOM *all the time*. They just don't use the W3C DOM, because it blows.
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# [23:59] <jgraham> I don't understand why you think tying this to a new language is a sensible idea
# [23:59] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I didn't say anything about that. See my above comments about how I'm not talking about Dart.
# Session Close: Thu Oct 13 00:00:01 2011

The end :)