/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 14 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <ojan> smaug____: thanks! it's nothing urgent, but just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost.
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  17. # [00:20] <Hixie> heycam: ping
  18. # [00:20] <Hixie> heycam: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13093
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  38. # [01:06] <Hixie> man, my css-fu these days is week
  39. # [01:06] <Hixie> weak even
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  41. # [01:07] <Hixie> what's the practical difference between a presentational attribute css rule and a UA stylesheet css rule? just that the user style sheet overrides the UA one but not the pres hints?
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  51. # [01:12] <dbaron> Hixie, yeah
  52. # [01:13] <Hixie> k
  53. # [01:13] <dbaron> Hixie, also affects their interaction with each other, though
  54. # [01:13] <Hixie> well sure
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  57. # [01:14] <Hixie> i thought there might have been a compat reason for the way i made a lot of the border-width rules preshints but the border-style rules ua.css rules
  58. # [01:14] <Hixie> but i guess not if that's the only difference
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  63. # [01:20] <zewt> heh, cheers for everyone making the same mistakes http://unity3d.com/support/documentation/Manual/Security%20Sandbox.html
  64. # [01:20] <zewt> You are allowed to download images from servers that do not have a crossdomain.xml file. However, the only thing you are allowed to do with these images is use them as textures in your scene. You are not allowed to use GetPixel() on them. You are also no longer allowed to read back from the screen.
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  114. # [02:43] <heycam> Hixie, that "global scope polluter property" term disappeared after simplifying the window named property thing
  115. # [02:43] <Hixie> ah ok
  116. # [02:43] <Hixie> can you update the bug with whatever i need to do, if anything?
  117. # [02:43] <Hixie> seems every time i get around to addressing that particular issue, the solution has changed again ;-)
  118. # [02:43] <heycam> sure ;)
  119. # [02:43] <Hixie> thanks!!
  120. # [02:44] <heycam> just gotta go and buy a couch, will leave a comment later today
  121. # [02:48] <Hixie> cool, thanks
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  149. # [04:07] <erlehmann> zewt, Y unity cannot into CORS headers?
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  152. # [04:13] <zewt> what?
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  226. # [07:32] <annevk> How do CSS animations or transitions interact with the task queue?
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  242. # [08:57] <zcorpan> "User agents that support a constructor for an event interface must return true for that interface's extended feature string and the version "4.0"." http://html5labs.interoperabilitybridges.com/dom4events/
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  244. # [08:59] <annevk> pretty good at ignoring feedback given thus far
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  255. # [09:23] <annevk> why does ancestor Documents not exist
  256. # [09:23] <annevk> now you have to say something like
  257. # [09:23] <annevk> documents of the browsing contexts that are ancestor of the document's browsing context
  258. # [09:23] <annevk> which is like confusing
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  263. # [09:40] <Hixie> isn't hasFeature(), like, gone
  264. # [09:41] <Hixie> annevk: document.parentNode === null because otherwise security error
  265. # [09:41] <annevk> it is, but requests to kill extensions to hasFeature() from DOM Level 3 Events have fallen on death ears
  266. # [09:42] <annevk> I just pointed it out again that my comments have been ignored
  267. # [09:42] <annevk> now I have to wait another month of course
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  270. # [09:42] <annevk> but I've only been waiting for answers since March or so, so whatever
  271. # [09:42] <annevk> Hixie, I meant more as a concept
  272. # [09:43] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  273. # [09:43] <Hixie> well i can't complain about people taking long to answer to feedback
  274. # [09:43] <annevk> Hixie, not really something we'd expose
  275. # [09:43] <annevk> it's more like ignoring feedback
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  277. # [09:43] <annevk> since they claim they have addressed all feedback
  278. # [09:43] <Hixie> just use "document's parent browsing context's document"
  279. # [09:43] <Hixie> yeah ignoring feedback is a better thing to complain about
  280. # [09:43] <annevk> and then I have to do the work to look up what they missed
  281. # [09:44] <annevk> which sucks donkey balls, or something like that
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  285. # [09:47] <annevk> Hixie, ah, that makes it slightly shorter, thanks
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  287. # [09:47] <annevk> pretty close to a pretty crappy draft of Fullscreen
  288. # [09:48] <Hixie> cool
  289. # [09:48] <Hixie> btw if you want all acnestors i think i've got a term like "ancestor browsing contexts" defined
  290. # [09:48] <Hixie> check the bc section
  291. # [09:48] <annevk> since everyone seems to do something different I specced something close to what Gecko has, left out the keyboard stuff for now, and hope feedback will make it nice
  292. # [09:48] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, using that
  293. # [09:48] <Hixie> k
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  298. # [09:59] <annevk> btw, if HTML defined browsing contexts as http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#trees I would get "descendant" for free
  299. # [10:00] <annevk> i'll just define descendant for now and leave that as possible future cleanup
  300. # [10:00] <Hixie> browsing contexts are weirder, they have openers, secondaries, all kinds of crap
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  336. # [12:23] <hsivonen> hmm. I see no mention of ANGLE on Opera 12's about page. Does this mean Opera wrote its own shader validation?
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  338. # [12:30] <hsivonen> MapsGL not offered to Opera :-(
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  343. # [12:57] <hasather> hsivonen: I think so yes, see http://www.khronos.org/assets/uploads/developers/library/2011_GDC_WebGL/Opera_GDC-Mar11.pdf
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  346. # [13:03] <hsivonen> hasather: thanks
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  348. # [13:04] <hasather> hsivonen: also see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnVy_uCk_es at 06:50
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  355. # [13:39] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Our DirectX backend is as old as Vega itself (and was mentioned with its announcement) — it predates ANGLE existing.
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  360. # [13:54] <hsivonen> gsnedders: interesting. I had missed that somehow.
  361. # [14:04] <gsnedders> hsivonen: But yeah, we have separate DirectX 9, DirectX 10, OpenGL, and OpenGL ES backends.
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  375. # [15:01] <gsnedders> Wow. Just had Android crash and lose all my text messages. And not the first time I've had messages vanish due to Android bugs. Not exactly endearing…
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  390. # [15:44] <erlehmann> gsnedders, intredasting. do you have cyanogen or an old version?
  391. # [15:45] <gsnedders> erlehmann: old version
  392. # [15:49] <erlehmann> gsnedders, get cyanogen then :3
  393. # [15:49] <erlehmann> i won a g1 and even there cyanogen runs. magic.
  394. # [15:51] <erlehmann> the bootloader is called the DangerSPL because it has a chance of bricking the device
  395. # [15:51] <erlehmann> SUSPENSE
  396. # [15:51] <gsnedders> Not exactly impressive that HTC ship something unusable.,
  397. # [15:52] <gsnedders> And at least one of the bugs that has annoyed me with Android is unfixed upstream.
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  401. # [16:01] <hsivonen> I'm waiting for Nexus Prime, because I don't trust non-Nexus devices to get proper software updates
  402. # [16:02] <gsnedders> I'm really, very seriously, considering getting a Windows Phone 7 device.
  403. # [16:02] <gsnedders> Just… there's something wrong that I've reached the conclusion that they might be the best devices today.
  404. # [16:02] <hsivonen> gsnedders: does Windows Phone 7 run any Opera products?
  405. # [16:03] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Nope.
  406. # [16:03] <gsnedders> (Mobile obviously will never come to it as long as they forbid native code)
  407. # [16:04] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I find it a bit surprising that Opera hasn't repurposed the Java version of the Mini front end for WP7 by now
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  409. # [16:14] <erlehmann> hsivonen, everything with nexus in name is probably a good idea.
  410. # [16:14] <erlehmann> gsnedders, WP-7 may have a nice interface, but hackability?
  411. # [16:14] <erlehmann> i like the python scripting thing of androi
  412. # [16:14] <erlehmann> d
  413. # [16:15] <gsnedders> erlehmann: I'm not massively bothered. As long as I have an ssh client…
  414. # [16:15] <erlehmann> dumb terminals, here they are again.
  415. # [16:16] <hsivonen> sigh. I contacted the front-line support of a corporation that shall remain nameless explaining to them that their site doesn't work with the HTML5 parser in Firefox and I'm the person who wrote the parser and asking them to put me in touch with their technical staff
  416. # [16:17] <hsivonen> I got back a canned reply that instructed me to flip a pref in about:config
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  418. # [16:17] <hsivonen> a pref I implemented
  419. # [16:17] <hsivonen> html5.parser.enable
  420. # [16:17] <zewt> heh
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  422. # [16:17] <zewt> so there's a site out there telling people to flip a global preference
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  425. # [16:18] <Ms2ger> I would be surprised if there was only one
  426. # [16:18] <hsivonen> maybe I should accelerate the removal of the pref
  427. # [16:19] <Ms2ger> Or rename it again
  428. # [16:19] <zewt> html5.parser.enable.by.the.way.the.person.that.told.you.to.set.this.is.dumb
  429. # [16:21] <zewt> the most discouraging thing is when you google for an error message, and the first google hit is a mailing list post of: you asking about the error
  430. # [16:32] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@247.183.189.109.customer.cdi.no)
  431. # [16:34] <miketaylr> hsivonen: after finally getting ahold of someone at symantec re: http://www.symantec.com/ja/jp/business/security_response/graphs.jsp?graphid=attacktrends, i was told i probably had a virus
  432. # [16:35] <miketaylr> ( <title/> )
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  435. # [16:36] <zcorpan> miketaylr: i guess generally that's true
  436. # [16:37] <miketaylr> heh
  437. # [16:37] <Ms2ger> Well no, Chrome is the virus ;)
  438. # [16:37] <hsivonen> miketaylr: :-(
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  446. # [17:04] <smaug____> I don't understand 4.8.14.2
  447. # [17:04] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (ZombieLoff@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  448. # [17:04] <smaug____> the "...and then fired again..." part
  449. # [17:04] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@247.183.189.109.customer.cdi.no) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  450. # [17:04] * smaug____ files a spec bug
  451. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> In which document? :)
  452. # [17:05] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb)
  453. # [17:05] <smaug____> HTML spec
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  459. # [17:16] <michel_v> Karl made me do it
  460. # [17:19] <miketaylr> whatever it was, my condolences
  461. # [17:19] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (ZombieLoff@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  462. # [17:19] * Ms2ger goes for kicking out isElementContentWhitespace
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  469. # [17:46] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  470. # [17:46] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  471. # [17:47] <Ms2ger> MORNING
  472. # [17:48] <gsnedders> Back from vacation?
  473. # [17:49] <dglazkov> gsnedders: me? yes!
  474. # [17:50] <dglazkov> gsnedders: a REAMDE vacation
  475. # [17:50] <gsnedders> dglazkov: Can't see many words on you.
  476. # [17:51] <dglazkov> gsnedders: ok I googled that and still don't understand what you said :)
  477. # [17:52] <gsnedders> dglazkov: I tried you READYOU.
  478. # [17:52] <gsnedders> a/you/to/
  479. # [17:52] <dglazkov> gsnedders: :)
  480. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> Does Opera support CORS already?
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  484. # [18:02] <jgraham> No. Known defect
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  514. # Session Close: Fri Oct 14 19:02:23 2011
  515. #
  516. # Session Start: Fri Oct 14 19:02:23 2011
  517. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  518. # [19:02] * Disconnected
  519. # [19:03] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  520. # [19:03] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  521. # [19:03] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  522. # [19:03] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  523. # [19:03] -holmes.freenode.net:#whatwg- [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots -- please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
  524. # [19:06] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  525. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> jgraham: reading the backscroll, do you honestly disagree that JS is a functional language? Just to be sure, we're both using the sense of "uses first-class functions quite a lot", right?
  526. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> Because if you're just being snarky about the non-CS definition of "functional", then whatever.
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  537. # [19:40] <hober> annevk5: /me keeps reloading https://bitbucket.org/annevk in anticipation of a fullscreen draft :)
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  554. # [20:27] <Hixie> TabAtkins: js is not a pure-functional language (it has side-effects) but it can be used as a functional programming language
  555. # [20:27] <Hixie> TabAtkins: generally the term "functional programming" refers to not relying on side-effects or state, though, not so much whether the language has first-class functions
  556. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> That would be why I didn't call it pure-functional, because that's trivially false. ^_^
  557. # [20:27] <Hixie> TabAtkins: though having first-class functions is probably a necessary component
  558. # [20:28] <Hixie> or at least, having function references
  559. # [20:28] <Hixie> they don't necessarily have to be objects per se
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  564. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> Hixie, yt?
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  574. # [20:55] <Hixie> Ms2ger: yo
  575. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> Looking at setTimeout
  576. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> It takes a float for the timeout argument
  577. # [20:57] <Hixie> sounds appropriately crazy
  578. # [20:57] <Ms2ger> And then turns it into an int using a custom algorithm that looks almost-entirely-but-not-quite like ToInt32
  579. # [20:58] <Hixie> yeah i seem to recall there was some weirdness around that
  580. # [20:58] <Hixie> something about not wrapping around or something
  581. # [20:58] <Hixie> i forget
  582. # [20:58] <Hixie> svn blame might know more
  583. # [20:58] <Ms2ger> Ah
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  586. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> Well, afaict from the code, Gecko doesn't do that
  587. # [21:00] <Hixie> it's possible webidl has advanced to the point where it can describe the behaviour necessary for compat, this stuff predates a lot of webidl
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  589. # [21:01] <Hixie> or the browsers might have become more sane
  590. # [21:01] <Hixie> feel free to file a bug saying it should be simplified
  591. # [21:05] <Ms2ger> Looks like Opera doesn't wrap
  592. # [21:06] <Ms2ger> But I'm not going to wait 2**32 milliseconds to confirm
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  594. # [21:07] <Hixie> yeah that's the problem :-)
  595. # [21:08] <Ms2ger> Filed bug 14469, you can open the testcase now so it's finished when you get there ;)
  596. # [21:08] <Hixie> heh
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  626. # [22:31] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I don't think "has first class functions" is a good definition of "functional programming language"
  627. # [22:31] <jgraham> Although I will allow that it supports a functional style
  628. # [22:31] <jgraham> In more important questions, wtf is EventException?
  629. # [22:31] <jgraham> Is this something I should know about or did D3E invent it?
  630. # [22:33] <Ms2ger> D3E nonsense
  631. # [22:33] <jgraham> Does anyone apart from Microsof care about that?
  632. # [22:33] <jgraham> +t
  633. # [22:34] <jgraham> They want to add EventException to testharness.js and I think it is stupid, but I'm not really sure that "this spec shouldn't exist" is a good enough reason to complain
  634. # [22:35] <jgraham> Oh, it's in DOM 2 Events too
  635. # [22:35] <jgraham> UNSPECIFIED_EVENT_TYPE_ERR
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  637. # [22:35] <jgraham> Nice
  638. # [22:35] <Ms2ger> I just removed it from Gecko
  639. # [22:35] <Ms2ger> Anyway, what's up with not being able to make useCapture optional in Java?
  640. # [22:36] <Ms2ger> public void addEventListener(String type, Object listener) {}
  641. # [22:36] <Ms2ger> public void addEventListener(String type, Object listener, boolean capture) {}
  642. # [22:36] <Ms2ger> wfm
  643. # [22:36] <jgraham> People haven't seriously been complaining about that, have they?
  644. # [22:36] <jgraham> You need to make the third param optional for web compat
  645. # [22:37] <jgraham> So it's optionality isn't optional to specify
  646. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> It is for D3E
  647. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> It's a MAY there
  648. # [22:37] <jgraham> For real?
  649. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> Yes
  650. # [22:38] <smaug____> Ms2ger: did I r+ UNSPECIFIED_EVENT_TYPE_ERR patch?
  651. # [22:38] <smaug____> maybe I did
  652. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> You did
  653. # [22:38] <smaug____> maybe I shouldn't have :)
  654. # [22:38] <jgraham> That's just... wow... I don't even know what to say
  655. # [22:38] <smaug____> since I'm not quite sure I like the DOM4 way to have all the exception type in one spec
  656. # [22:38] <smaug____> s/type/types/
  657. # [22:40] <jgraham> smaug____: I guarantee to you that in all the cases where it makes a difference having two types there just causes problems (e.g. when authors want to handle exceptions but forget that there are different exceptions for events)
  658. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> Also, other specs can define their own types
  659. # [22:43] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@206-15-76-122.static.twtelecom.net)
  660. # [22:45] * Joins: oojacoboo (~jacob@96-32-175-233.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com)
  661. # [22:46] <oojacoboo> hey, anyone on the chrome team?
  662. # [22:46] <oojacoboo> I'm seeing a new behavior with tables in Canary
  663. # [22:46] <oojacoboo> was curious to know what is causing the change
  664. # [22:49] <jgraham> In other news, google dropping code search sucks
  665. # [22:50] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126)
  666. # [22:56] <smaug____> what is the reason for dropping code search?
  667. # [22:57] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-5ed9e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  668. # [22:57] <smaug____> and where was it announced?
  669. # [23:00] <Velmont> They said thei're pulling entire Google Labs. Today. -- I read it in a we're deleting Buzz-post on some google blog.
  670. # [23:00] <Velmont> But guess there are much better sources out there on the intarwebs.
  671. # [23:02] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  672. # [23:03] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au)
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  676. # [23:08] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  677. # [23:08] * Joins: volkmar (~volkmar@rps1542.ovh.net)
  678. # [23:08] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@rps1542.ovh.net) (Changing host)
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  680. # [23:09] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  681. # [23:10] <Ms2ger> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/fall-sweep.html
  682. # [23:10] * Ms2ger attempts to improve d3e once more
  683. # [23:13] <jgraham> Don Quixote would be proud
  684. # [23:15] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  685. # [23:17] <Ms2ger> Mm
  686. # [23:17] <Ms2ger> If it doesn't work out, I'll just object
  687. # [23:25] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.25.107) (Quit: nn)
  688. # [23:39] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  689. # [23:47] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@202.61.222.68.static.rev.eftel.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  690. # [23:48] * Joins: ojan (ojan@nat/google/x-uravdplotehaewez)
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  693. # [23:57] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925210074.dsl.bell.ca)
  694. # Session Close: Sat Oct 15 00:00:00 2011

The end :)