/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 17 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [01:05] <robman> zewt - thanks for the tip about the DOM-less canvas - will that save much overhead?
  18. # [01:05] <zewt> compared to it being hidden? probably not (but you'd have to try it)
  19. # [01:08] <robman> cool...thnx
  20. # [01:08] * robman goes off to do some performance tests
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  48. # [04:02] <ttepasse> Hixie: The example in section 10.1.2.2 still uses the Web SQL Database as an example for Web Workers. Maybe that should change to IndexedDB or clientside DB du jour.
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  51. # [04:37] <annevk> cpearce, so it sounds like the "fullscreen flag" really ought to be on top-level browsing context instead of Document if all Documents need to have it set
  52. # [04:38] <annevk> cpearce, also, thanks for the great comments
  53. # [04:47] <annevk> oh wait
  54. # [04:47] <annevk> you are saying something else
  55. # [04:47] <annevk> maky
  56. # [04:47] <annevk> mkay*
  57. # [04:48] <cpearce> annevk: heh, comments are all the edge cases I've bumped into so far. ;) hmm... without the Document.fullscreen attribute we can't represent that a document remains in fullscreen state if its fullscreen element is inserted into another document. Unless we cause that to exit fullscreen mode... not sure we want to do that.
  58. # [04:49] <annevk> I guess my idea was that all Documents would be fullscreen if their top-level browsing context is fullscreen
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  60. # [04:50] <annevk> and then the documents which are highlighted is determined by the "fullscreen element"
  61. # [04:51] <annevk> are there use cases to make the moving around of elements not do the simplest thing?
  62. # [04:52] <annevk> it seems to me that removing an element that is the fullscreen element should simply clear the fullscreen element for that document and the fullscreen element of any descendant browsing context documents (if any)
  63. # [04:52] <annevk> (and a move in the DOM is a remove followed by an insert so that would behave the same)
  64. # [04:53] <cpearce> that makes sense. I think that's implied by the gecko spec, it's how I've implemented it so far.
  65. # [04:54] <annevk> then for the scenario where a new element becomes the fullscreen element I think nicest would be to find the nearest common ancestor fullscreen element of old and new, remove all old and dispatch events and then set new and dispatch mutation events
  66. # [04:54] <annevk> s/mutation/fullscreenchanged/
  67. # [04:55] <cpearce> Yup. :)
  68. # [04:55] <annevk> the alternative would be to clear "fullscreen element" everywhere, set it anew, and dispatch fullscreenchanged on all documents
  69. # [04:56] <cpearce> right, but then you'd see fullscreenchange twice on docs that toggle off and back on again.
  70. # [04:56] <cpearce> which could confuse script.
  71. # [04:56] <annevk> good point
  72. # [04:56] <annevk> okay I'll take a look at fixing this
  73. # [04:57] <annevk> time for lunch here
  74. # [04:57] <annevk> thanks!
  75. # [04:57] <cpearce> np.
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  83. # [05:49] <Hixie> ttepasse: if you have an example to replace it with, that'd be awesome. send me mail to ian@hixie.ch if you can help with that.
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  94. # [06:37] <annevk> ah, cpearce left
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  96. # [06:41] <annevk> so when removing a "fullscreen element" the order of fullscreenchange, fullscreenElement, and mutation listeners, may be somewhat tricky
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  98. # [06:42] <Hixie> btw anne i noticed when glancing at your draft that there's a step that says something like "do animations" in what looks like a synchronous algorithm
  99. # [06:42] <Hixie> but animations need to spin the event loop to be done
  100. # [06:43] <annevk> I guess fullscreenchange cannot be synchronous, because then it would be synchronous mutation event of sorts, but then is fullscreenElement changed by the time the mutation listener is there?
  101. # [06:43] <annevk> hmm
  102. # [06:43] <annevk> Hixie, so while doing the animation it needs to spin the event loop?
  103. # [06:51] <annevk> Also, I guess we should name the event fullscreenchange and not fullscreenchanged
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  108. # [07:10] <Hixie> annevk: well more likely the algorithm just needs to be async while the event loop continues normally
  109. # [07:10] <Hixie> annevk: but you need to handle what happens if fullscreen mode is exited while that's going on
  110. # [07:12] <annevk> :(
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  121. # [07:56] <myakura> MIkeSmith: ping
  122. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> myakura: hey man
  123. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> we are downstairs in front of the Square Tower
  124. # [07:56] <myakura> hiya
  125. # [07:56] <myakura> we?
  126. # [07:57] * myakura noticed that he typed MIke and wonder if MIke is TM'd or not.
  127. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> myakura: me & secret visitor
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  129. # [08:01] <myakura> hm. I have a meeting at 3pm and will back in an hour. Do you think you two'll still be there?
  130. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> yeah, probably
  131. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> if our battery power holds up
  132. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> but if you don't find us, just ping me
  133. # [08:02] <myakura> alright.
  134. # [08:03] <myakura> MikeSmith: so, I'm writing about the Testing Activity for my next Web Designing article.
  135. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> aha
  136. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> cool
  137. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> I'm happy to talk with you about it
  138. # [08:04] <Hixie> annevk: probably not that big a deal. If anything happens during that step to cancel the fullscreening, just reverse the animation and don't fire anything.
  139. # [08:04] <myakura> MikeSmith: and http://www.w3.org/testing/browser/ says like that it hasn't been chartered yet.
  140. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> myakura: oh, lemme change that now
  141. # [08:04] <myakura> MikeSmith: thanks!
  142. # [08:05] <myakura> okay, bbl.
  143. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> cheers
  144. # [08:06] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, but I guess exitFullscreen() can be invoked then too and requestFullscreen() could be invoked again on some other element
  145. # [08:06] <annevk> Hixie, so there probably needs to be some kind of state for all these edge cases
  146. # [08:07] <Hixie> annevk: ah, yeah, i forgot this was element-based
  147. # [08:07] <Hixie> annevk: btw, did you end up needing anything on the html side?
  148. # [08:07] <Hixie> attribute or anything?
  149. # [08:07] <annevk> yeah we want <iframe allowfullscreen>
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  151. # [08:07] <Hixie> is there a bug on it?
  152. # [08:07] <annevk> I will file one
  153. # [08:07] <Hixie> cool
  154. # [08:07] <Hixie> mark it blocker if you need it sooner rather than later
  155. # [08:08] <annevk> and the Gecko guys want to exit fullscreen when you navigate
  156. # [08:08] <Hixie> roger
  157. # [08:08] <Hixie> i can add a hook
  158. # [08:08] <annevk> but I'm not sure how that would work yet with events yet
  159. # [08:08] <annevk> and what happens when you navigate when of the child browsing contexts instead of the top-level
  160. # [08:09] <annevk> sounds good btw
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  171. # [08:34] <annevk> man if you want to be explicit about how to deal with moving the fullscreen element around it gets hairy
  172. # [08:35] <annevk> the fullscreen elements can be in the same document, one can be an ancestor document of the other, and they can share a common ancestor
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  175. # [08:41] <annevk> in the ancestor case the fullscreen element in the ancestor might also need to be changed depending on what it is
  176. # [08:42] <annevk> i guess it's kind of equivalent to the common ancestor case in that way, except there are no descendant documents to notify
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  179. # [08:56] <annevk> hmm
  180. # [08:56] <annevk> "first inclusive ancestor" can probably work
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  186. # [09:11] <annevk> * A is the old fullscreen element
  187. # [09:11] <annevk> * DA is A's node document
  188. # [09:11] <annevk> * B is the new fullscreen element
  189. # [09:11] <annevk> * DB is B's node document
  190. # [09:11] <annevk> * X is the first inclusive ancestor common to A and B
  191. # [09:11] <annevk> * Notify changes for descendant documents of X with a non-null fullscreen element
  192. # [09:11] <annevk> * Let Z be all descendants of X that are inclusive ancestors of DB
  193. # [09:11] <annevk> * Does X's fullscreen element change; if so change/notify
  194. # [09:11] <annevk> * Change/notify Z
  195. # [09:11] <annevk> that's a whole lot of complexity for a "simple" feature
  196. # [09:13] <annevk> open question is when the events are best dispatched
  197. # [09:13] <annevk> like do you update all the flags first and then dispatch all the events?
  198. # [09:14] <annevk> or do you do that kind of thing on a per document basis? change flag, dispatch event, change flag in next document, dispatch event in next document, etc.
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  207. # [09:48] <annevk> whether X's fullscreen element changes is also fun...
  208. # [09:49] <annevk> - If Z is empty and X's fullscreen element is not B
  209. # [09:49] <annevk> - X needs to change
  210. # [09:49] <annevk> - Let child be X's child document that is also in Z
  211. # [09:49] <annevk> - If child's browsing context container is not X's fullscreen element
  212. # [09:49] <annevk> - X needs to change
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  214. # [09:50] <annevk> 90% of the complexity of this feature is for something people will not run into
  215. # [09:50] <annevk> then again I don't really see a good alternative
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  266. # [12:58] <markss> Hey I registered for a http://www.w3techcourses.com account but the email failed to send so now I can't confirm my registration. Is there anyone I can contact to fix this?
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  272. # [13:15] <Lachy> markss, this channel isn't affiliated with the W3C. Try #sysreq on the W3C's IRC server.
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  277. # [13:37] <markss> Lachy: Alright thanks
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  358. # [17:51] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  359. # [17:51] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  363. # [18:07] <Hixie> every time i try to talk to people in the Semantic Web community i have the same troubles
  364. # [18:07] <Hixie> sigh
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  443. # [20:45] <timeless> zewt: the reason phone manufacturers rarely update *anything* is because there's no financial incentive to do so, and there is a fiscal penalty for doing so: if it breaks something on an operator's network, the operator will get pissed and ask for money back
  444. # [20:46] <timeless> plus, a mobile vendor (like nokia) makes money by selling (new) units, it doesn't make money from units once they are sold
  445. # [20:47] <timeless> and in the rare case that a browser actually results in revenue (home/search kickbacks), that money is not sent back to a maintenance team for the product that generated it, instead it is treated as some sort of windfall and absorbed by the company or some future product at large team
  446. # [20:49] <timeless> smaug____: fwiw, iPhone Safari doesn't get updated often, just look at how long it took for them to fix the certificate disaster
  447. # [20:50] <smaug____> k
  448. # [20:50] * smaug____ is certainly not going to buy any iPhone anyway
  449. # [20:51] <smaug____> N9 might be one option
  450. # [20:51] <smaug____> but it is a bit too expensive
  451. # [20:51] <zewt> ... but google should not have put phone manufacturers in control of updating the browser, just as they're not in control of updating google apps
  452. # [20:52] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@176.14.214.163)
  453. # [20:53] <smaug____> depends on which browser the OS has
  454. # [20:54] * smaug____ hopes phone manufacturers would use some better browsers than stock browser
  455. # [20:55] * zewt hopes Google will supply a sane browser (because it's their job) and phone manufacturers won't fragment things further
  456. # [20:55] <smaug____> it is bad if Google controls the whole stack
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  461. # [21:09] <gsnedders> smaug____: AIUI unless you pay Google (instead of getting Android for free) you can't ship the Google Apps and any non-standard application
  462. # [21:10] <gsnedders> smaug____: So OEMs take the default apps and Android for free
  463. # [21:14] <smaug____> huh
  464. # [21:17] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:5416:e94d:4e55:845e)
  465. # [21:17] <gsnedders> smaug____: The Google Apps are non-free.
  466. # [21:17] <gsnedders> smaug____: (like Gmail, Market, etc.)
  467. # [21:18] * Joins: ojan (ojan@nat/google/x-nghgxrkihbjxeigj)
  468. # [21:20] <gsnedders> smaug____: So you have to get a license from Google to distribute them. They let you have it free in return for advertising revenue, or you can pay and change stuff.
  469. # [21:20] <timeless> zewt: the reason phone manufacturers rarely update *anything* is because there's no financial incentive to do so, and there is a fiscal penalty for doing so: if it breaks something on an operator's network, the operator will get pissed and ask for money back
  470. # [21:21] <timeless> plus, a mobile vendor (like nokia) makes money by selling (new) units, it doesn't make money from units once they are sold. and in the rare case that a browser actually results in revenue (home/search kickbacks), that money is not sent back to a maintenance team for the product that generated it, instead it is treated as some sort of windfall and absorbed by the company or some future product at l
  471. # [21:21] <timeless> arge team
  472. # [21:21] <timeless> hober: out of curiosity, which mobile vendors are actually good at browser updates?
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  474. # [21:21] <timeless> smaug____: fwiw, iPhone Safari doesn't get updated often, just look at how long it took for them to fix the certificate disaster
  475. # [21:21] <zewt> deja vu?
  476. # [21:21] <timeless> i'm using irccloud
  477. # [21:21] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net)
  478. # [21:21] <zewt> you're repeating yourself, heh
  479. # [21:21] <timeless> i thought i was offline and that things i had said weren't said
  480. # [21:22] <timeless> so i queued them in notepad and then sent them again
  481. # [21:22] <timeless> it didn't occur to me that they would have been sent
  482. # [21:22] <timeless> stuff in other places wasn't sent!
  483. # [21:22] <timeless> i believe gsnedders is correct about the Google Apps
  484. # [21:22] <timeless> which is a pretty good reason for major vendors to pay in
  485. # [21:22] <timeless> as for the n9... dunno
  486. # [21:23] <timeless> what's shocked me of late is that i've met a couple of people interested in n8s
  487. # [21:23] <timeless> s/people/women/
  488. # [21:24] <gsnedders> timeless: AFAIK almost no vendors pay.
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  491. # [21:35] <smaug____> timeless: n8?
  492. # [21:36] <smaug____> isn't that, hmm, old
  493. # [21:36] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@64.119.130.114)
  494. # [21:36] <smaug____> n9 has got lots of media time in Finland
  495. # [21:36] <timeless> the n8 is what i got nokia to buy for me right before i left
  496. # [21:36] <timeless> and yeah, it's old and sucks
  497. # [21:36] <timeless> but has a 12mp camera
  498. # [21:37] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  499. # [21:37] <timeless> oh, and it turns out that the "new" ui for symbian actually eventually made it out the doors!
  500. # [21:37] <timeless> so if i can find Lucy, i can let her consider replacing the old symbian ui with a worse one!
  501. # [21:37] <timeless> (but hey, it's "newer")
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  504. # [21:42] <Hixie> does nobody implement body.onmessage?
  505. # [21:43] <Hixie> or does nobody implement window.postMessage()?
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  508. # [21:44] <timeless> nobody@mozilla.org or nobody@somewhere.else ?
  509. # [21:44] <zewt> the latter exists in Chrome, anyway
  510. # [21:44] <timeless> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.postMessage
  511. # [21:44] <Hixie> every browser i've tested fails http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/web-apps/postMessage/002.html
  512. # [21:44] <timeless> msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc197057(v=vs.85).aspx
  513. # [21:44] <Hixie> and i can't work out if it's my fault or not :-)
  514. # [21:45] <timeless> it seems that ms has documented body.onmessage
  515. # [21:45] <timeless> FAIL (message not received)
  516. # [21:45] <Hixie> guess i should test windows
  517. # [21:45] <timeless> in IE10 on w8
  518. # [21:45] <Hixie> IE?
  519. # [21:45] <Hixie> k
  520. # [21:45] <Hixie> so
  521. # [21:45] <Hixie> is it my fault or what
  522. # [21:45] <Hixie> i'm confused
  523. # [21:45] <Hixie> oh i guess i nuke the iframe
  524. # [21:45] <Hixie> maybe that's why
  525. # [21:45] <Hixie> let's fix that
  526. # [21:46] <Hixie> timeless: how about now?
  527. # [21:46] * Joins: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk)
  528. # [21:47] <timeless> FAIL (message not received); TEST FRAME
  529. # [21:47] <zewt> test() not called from anywhere?
  530. # [21:47] <timeless> i.e. there's a frame with that other text
  531. # [21:47] <timeless> but i'm still getting the fail
  532. # [21:47] <Hixie> zewt: 002a.html calls it onmessage
  533. # [21:47] <Hixie> timeless: k. thanks for the help.
  534. # [21:47] <Hixie> i'll figure this out after lunch.
  535. # [21:47] <Hixie> hopefully it's my fault...
  536. # [21:47] <Hixie> bbiab
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  539. # [21:52] <smaug____> Hixie: FF9/10 have "onmessage" in document.body
  540. # [21:54] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  544. # [22:01] <timeless> fwiw, i get the same results in my slightly dated 32bit Nightly on w8 as i do w/ IE10
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  547. # [22:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: i guess browsers don't support <body onmessage> properly
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  570. # [23:15] <Hixie> zcorpan: seems that way
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  573. # [23:20] <Hixie> yup, looks like no browser implements onmessage="" right
  574. # [23:20] <Hixie> oh well
  575. # [23:20] * zcorpan files a bug
  576. # [23:20] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/web-apps/postMessage/002.html if you need a testcase
  577. # [23:20] <Hixie> 003.html tests window.onmessage and seems to work everywhere
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  579. # [23:23] <jgraham> Hixie: Convert the tests to something that can be put in the oficial testsuite, please :)
  580. # [23:23] <Hixie> is there documentation on how to do that?
  581. # [23:24] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Authoring/
  582. # [23:25] <Hixie> wait why does a test have to include a js file?
  583. # [23:25] <Hixie> i just want to report the result to the harness
  584. # [23:25] <jgraham> Because there are tradeoffs in both directions
  585. # [23:25] <jgraham> And this is the one we went with
  586. # [23:25] <Hixie> wow this is far too complicated
  587. # [23:26] <Hixie> the "basic usage" section of the documentation of the library is longer than most test harnesses i've written :-P
  588. # [23:26] <jgraham> Hixie: Having used the "just report a result" system at Opera, it turns out that often "wow this is far too simplistic"
  589. # [23:27] <jgraham> Anyway in your case there's no reason not to include the js file
  590. # [23:28] <Hixie> tests should never include anything other than what is needed to run the test
  591. # [23:29] <jgraham> I really don't see the problem here
  592. # [23:30] <jgraham> If it actually changes the results you get, that's differnet
  593. # [23:30] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@74.125.56.18)
  594. # [23:30] <jgraham> But part of the point is that there isn't a way to "just report the results to the harness"
  595. # [23:30] <Hixie> the test is 21 lines long. The script library is 1689 lines long. Reporting the result takes one line of code (if (parent.report) (parent.report(result))).
  596. # [23:30] <Hixie> that's the problem
  597. # [23:31] <Hixie> er, with one fewer parenthesis
  598. # [23:31] <jgraham> That's not a problem
  599. # [23:31] <jgraham> Also, one of the main points is that there isn't a harness
  600. # [23:31] <jgraham> everyone does something slightly different
  601. # [23:32] <Hixie> including a library that is 80 times bigger than the test is a problem, imho. it means that the bulk of what the test is really testing has nothing to do with what it is trying to test.
  602. # [23:32] <jgraham> We use some weird POST-to-localhost thing that will hopefully be replaced soon. Mozilla use moxhitests. Webkit use something that prints to stdout (I think?)
  603. # [23:32] <jgraham> The library almost entirely assumes a good ecmascript implementation
  604. # [23:33] <jgraham> That turns out to be a reasonable assumption
  605. # [23:34] <jgraham> I consider the requirement to run the test in an iframe or popup window to be much more worrying
  606. # [23:35] <Hixie> to each his own, i guess
  607. # [23:36] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@EM111-191-182-28.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  608. # [23:37] <zewt> when it comes to official test sets, i hope not :)
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  614. # [23:45] <Hixie> i don't understand opera's behaviour in http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/web-apps/postMessage/001.html
  615. # [23:46] <Hixie> webkit's behaviour is interesting. looks like it handles both postMessage(data, [], '*') and postMessage(data, '*', [])
  616. # [23:46] <Hixie> might be worth putting that in the spec
  617. # [23:56] <zcorpan> ugh. please no
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  619. # [23:57] <Hixie> looks like only webkit implements it at all in a usable way, so i've changd the spec to match webkit
  620. # [23:57] <Hixie> the number of people who have gotten confused as to the correct order of those arguments is sufficiently high that i think it's worth it
  621. # [23:57] <Hixie> there doesn't seem to be a downside really
  622. # [23:58] <zcorpan> O_O
  623. # [23:58] <zewt> making code 50/50 inconsistent instead of people getting an error and learning to do it right is a very clear downside
  624. # [23:59] <zcorpan> i'm pretty sure our developers will refuse to implement that
  625. # [23:59] <Hixie> well opera's implementation of the spec so far seems quite broken anyway, so... :-)
  626. # [23:59] <zcorpan> what's broken?
  627. # Session Close: Tue Oct 18 00:00:01 2011

The end :)