/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 19 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  24. # [01:26] <jarek> Hi
  25. # [01:26] <jarek> what's the difference between '::before' and ':before", and '::after' and ':after'?
  26. # [01:27] <jarek> the CSS3 spec defines only '::before' and '::after'
  27. # [01:27] <jarek> but I can see the other format all over the web
  28. # [01:29] <jarek> nvm
  29. # [01:29] <jarek> just found this http://www.impressivewebs.com/before-after-css3/
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  58. # [03:46] <annevk> Hixie, hey, I'll file bugs once we sorted out the fullscreen model
  59. # [03:46] <annevk> still seems a bit unclear (to me anyway)
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  61. # [03:50] <annevk> jarek, note how that article is missing the point; the single-colon syntax does not work for new pseudo-elements, only those introduced prior to the double-colon syntax
  62. # [03:50] <annevk> oh you are not her
  63. # [03:50] <annevk> e
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  72. # [04:41] <annevk> on the other hand API-based and UI-based fullscreen necessarily have to be different already of course as navigation should not cause UI-based fullscreen to exit
  73. # [04:42] <zewt> annevk: "UI-based" is ambiguous--F11 fullscreen and native-video-controls-fullscreen are very different
  74. # [04:43] <erlehmann> it is funny: in the evince PDF reader there exist „presentation“ and „fullscreen“ side-by-side with different semantics. quite some time, they behaved funny (yet predictable) when interleaving them.
  75. # [04:45] <annevk> zewt, I guess they are
  76. # [04:47] <annevk> maybe we should just not bother with nesting of requestFullscreen
  77. # [04:47] <zewt> i do like the possibility of native and scripted fullscreen being identical, though
  78. # [04:48] <erlehmann> in during category error.
  79. # [04:48] <zewt> what? heh
  80. # [04:48] <erlehmann> not true?
  81. # [04:48] <zewt> ("native" referring to video controls, not F11)
  82. # [04:48] <erlehmann> oh.
  83. # [04:48] <zewt> don't know what you said
  84. # [04:49] <zewt> parse error :)
  85. # [04:49] <erlehmann> a category error is, basically, treating things from different categories the same. in software, this is almost guaranteed to lead to problems later on. but i thought of “F11”.
  86. # [04:50] <zewt> ... it's also conceivable that native video fullscreen could use the fullscreen API, while still not allowing nesting
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  88. # [04:50] <zewt> at least then the interactions would be clear, and the other useful side-effects
  89. # [04:51] <erlehmann> nested fullscreen … fullception. or screenception?
  90. # [04:51] <erlehmann> WE NEED TO SCREEN FULLER.
  91. # [04:51] <zewt> erlehmann: enterFullscreen followed by the user clicking a native video fullscreen box
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  94. # [04:52] <erlehmann> my angler sense tingles. fishing possibilities ahead?
  95. # [04:53] <erlehmann> (users may or may not be confused. it is unclear to me what they would expect.)
  96. # [04:53] <annevk> maybe we should have document.requestFullscreen and it would be quite a bit different
  97. # [04:53] <annevk> and element.requestFullscreen would be for the <video> case and such
  98. # [04:53] <zewt> annevk: why have them be different?
  99. # [04:54] <annevk> if you press F11 you don't want a black background and such
  100. # [04:54] <annevk> you just want your document to be fullscreen
  101. # [04:54] <zewt> confused--F11 is browser fullscreen, pages don't have control over that
  102. # [04:54] <annevk> the idea would be to give them control
  103. # [04:55] <zewt> but it's a separate mode entirely (affects all tabs in the window; doesn't go away on navigation)
  104. # [05:01] <erlehmann> ha!
  105. # [05:01] <erlehmann> see? confusion everywhere.
  106. # [05:06] <annevk> zewt, i guess the navigation would be different
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  111. # [05:15] <zewt> annevk: if you want to fullscreen the tab without getting the black background (etc), you can just document.documentElement.enterFullscreen(), right? due to :not(:root)
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  113. # [05:15] <annevk> oh right, I forgot about that hack
  114. # [05:16] <zewt> better than having two entry points, IMO
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  116. # [05:16] <annevk> given that they're fundamentally different I'm not so sure
  117. # [05:17] <zewt> well, i'm just talking about the black background, etc--the fullscreen API shouldn't have any control over whole-window fullscreen
  118. # [05:17] <zewt> (if it should--why?)
  119. # [05:18] <annevk> I don't really see the difference
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  121. # [05:18] <zewt> ("window fullscreen" being F11 "affects the whole window", vs. tab-specific fullscreen that this API deals with)
  122. # [05:19] <zewt> i don't see the similarity :)
  123. # [05:19] <zewt> if I hit F11, I want the browser to stay fullscreen permanently until I hit F11 again; individual pages shouldn't affect (or care) about that
  124. # [05:19] <zewt> (or necessarily even be able to tell)
  125. # [05:20] <annevk> they can tell pretty easily
  126. # [05:20] <zewt> that is, F11 fullscreen shouldn't affect eg. fullscreenElement
  127. # [05:22] <zewt> why would a page want to activate window fullscreen (instead of just fullscreening the document)?
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  129. # [05:22] <annevk> I don't think they'd want that, but the visual effect is pretty much identical
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  131. # [05:23] <annevk> I mean sure one allows you to navigate and probably switch tabs, but things within the current document should probably work identical
  132. # [05:24] <zewt> i just think--well, what Darin said, that it's a separate UA feature that the UA can deal with, fullscreen api doesn't need to talk about it
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  136. # [05:31] <Hixie> annevk: roger
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  145. # [06:00] <annevk> zewt, yeah I guess
  146. # [06:00] <annevk> so how about this
  147. # [06:01] <annevk> since each Document has the fse (fullscreen element) and original fse, you can allow one-level of nesting per-Document
  148. # [06:01] <annevk> first time you do requestFullscreen fse gets set
  149. # [06:01] <erlehmann> oh well. i quite like the way i have to press F11.
  150. # [06:01] <erlehmann> to get fullscreen. it is the only way now.
  151. # [06:01] <erlehmann> goodbye, F11.
  152. # [06:02] <annevk> second time you do reqeustFullscreen original fse becomes fse, and fse becomes whatever requestFullscreen was invoked upon
  153. # [06:02] <annevk> erlehmann, huh?
  154. # [06:02] <erlehmann> annevk, i will probably not need it for the stuff i need it now. mainly web-based presentations and games.
  155. # [06:02] <annevk> if you then exitFullscreen fse becomes original fse again
  156. # [06:03] <erlehmann> because they will use the scripted fullscreen facilities, right?
  157. # [06:03] <erlehmann> so, goodbye F11. :3
  158. # [06:03] <zewt> annevk: what's the "original fse"? that's just ... null, isn't it?
  159. # [06:03] <annevk> well, I sort of think F11 should still give you fullscreenchange events
  160. # [06:03] <annevk> zewt, initially fse and original fse are null
  161. # [06:04] <zewt> annevk: are you basically suggesting a stack with a max size of 2? (implemented as two values rather than an array)
  162. # [06:04] <erlehmann> annevk, anythink you could use fullscreenchange events in that case for that is not layout?
  163. # [06:04] <annevk> zewt, you need original fse also if you are doing fullscreen in a descendant document, but yeah, that's the suggestion
  164. # [06:05] <annevk> erlehmann, not sure what you are suggesting
  165. # [06:05] <zewt> i'm not sure either way if it's really important to be able to do the "api fullscreen -> second fullscreen -> exit to the first fullscreen" thing
  166. # [06:05] <erlehmann> annevk, i am not suggesting. just musing and asking.
  167. # [06:05] <zewt> (not necessarily saying it's not, just not sure)
  168. # [06:06] <annevk> zewt, yeah, I sort of think we should maybe disallow that for now (requestFullscreen would just fail) and we'll see what happens
  169. # [06:06] <zewt> annevk: i think maybe it should succeed, and switch the element
  170. # [06:07] <zewt> eg. so video fullscreen buttons still work (they just don't stack)
  171. # [06:07] <annevk> so you have your powerpoint, go fullscreen in your video, and then you exit and it all falls apart?
  172. # [06:07] <zewt> maybe if there's a way to implement the stack behavior manually, for people who really want to ... not sure if that would work
  173. # [06:08] <zewt> doesn't fall apart, it behaves predictably--just not necessarily the way the page wanted
  174. # [06:08] <zewt> hmm
  175. # [06:09] <zewt> i'm biased by wanting to see video native controls just be defined as "transition to fullscreen" (with some trusted flag to ignore fullscreenEnabled, perhaps)
  176. # [06:09] <zewt> because it seems like that would make it all fit together a lot better
  177. # [06:11] <zewt> (if there's any possibility of that happening, it probably needs to happen early, or pages might start depending on it *not* happening)
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  182. # [06:46] <annevk> I emailed the list with an update on UI/API and nesting
  183. # [06:47] <annevk> hopefully it is somewhat coherent and hopefully it helps moving this discussion forward
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  201. # [07:47] <TabAtkins_> annevk5: Good email.
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  224. # [08:32] <annevk> hg diff -c REV --reverse is kind of cool
  225. # [08:32] <annevk> need to remember that one
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  230. # [08:42] <annevk> where did https://developer.mozilla.org/presentations/xtech2005/e4x/ go?
  231. # [08:42] <annevk> broken links on mozilla.org, when did that start happening?
  232. # [08:42] <erlehmann> dead links are the cancer that is killing the web.
  233. # [08:43] <erlehmann> i recently made a script to check for them in link lists. and found sites not answering to HEAD.
  234. # [08:43] <annevk> lets not get overly dramatic
  235. # [08:43] <erlehmann> that site is not even properly 410
  236. # [08:43] <annevk> dude that's impossible, HTTP has no problems
  237. # [08:43] <erlehmann> but sadly, as mpilgrim has killed off his stuff, no one will read his article on 410.
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  243. # [08:50] <annevk> oh man
  244. # [08:51] <annevk> that made me look up http://intertwingly.net/blog/2004/06/13/Gone-Really-I-mean-it and read about Dave Winer tried to reinvent HTTP in some XML and several others did too, and aah
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  247. # [08:56] <erlehmann> my simple trick on HTTP 410 is to have it delivered on files with zero length
  248. # [08:57] <erlehmann> so when a file goes poof, i just nul it.
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  256. # [09:19] <annevk> Hixie, I emailed public-script-coord to see if there's interest in reviving E4X as H4E (does not mean "Husband for ever")
  257. # [09:20] <Hixie> yeah we should just trim down E4X to just the literal stuff, and make it a short hand for DOM nodes
  258. # [09:20] <Hixie> drop all the query stuff
  259. # [09:20] <annevk> Hixie, if there's no interest I guess we're back to H4J (HTML for JSON)
  260. # [09:20] <Hixie> and drop comment support
  261. # [09:20] * Hixie shudders at the idea of H4J
  262. # [09:21] <annevk> I suggested something to that effect, yes
  263. # [09:21] <annevk> drop cdata, comment, pi, drop namespaces, drop xpath
  264. # [09:21] <annevk> simplify the API, was my suggestion more or less
  265. # [09:21] <Hixie> yeah
  266. # [09:21] <Hixie> cool
  267. # [09:22] <Hixie> btw iirc mozilla only does e4x in certain modes
  268. # [09:22] <Hixie> so there's not really a compat risk
  269. # [09:23] <annevk> Brendan did make it work outside the es4=true flag
  270. # [09:23] <Hixie> oh ok
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  283. # [10:44] <smaug____> ok, if Websocket protocol forces the API to be as bizarre as it is, we should not use the protocol
  284. # [10:47] <zcorpan> smaug____: ?
  285. # [10:48] <smaug____> "If reason is longer than 123 bytes, then throw a SyntaxError exception and abort these steps."
  286. # [10:49] <smaug____> There is also "is not an integer equal to 1000 or in the range 3000 to 4999, throw an InvalidAccessError exception", but I'm not sure where that insanity comes from
  287. # [10:50] <annevk> maybe you should read the protocol
  288. # [10:52] <zcorpan> smaug____: they wanted close frames (and controls frames in general) to be short. seems reasonable?
  289. # [10:53] <annevk> I wonder if http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:quasis will get the same lovely definition as new Date(...) i.e. undefined
  290. # [10:53] <smaug____> annevk: yes, I should read the latest version of the protocol
  291. # [10:53] <smaug____> zcorpan: no, as far as I see, there is no readon to limit the reason
  292. # [10:53] <annevk> Or ECMAScript would need some kind of normative dependency on CSS, HTML, etc. to define how strings are contextually escaped
  293. # [10:53] <smaug____> limit it more than limiting normal message length
  294. # [10:55] <annevk> seems like the reason is API-defined
  295. # [10:58] <zcorpan> smaug____: send feedback to hybi
  296. # [10:59] <zcorpan> i guess it could be useful to dump a stack trace or something in the reason
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  301. # [11:03] <jgraham> annevk: It isn't clear to me from that page whether the intention is to have any built-in handlers at all
  302. # [11:03] <jgraham> I didn't read it all though
  303. # [11:09] <annevk> jgraham, the use cases and examples seem to imply so
  304. # [11:09] <annevk> not sure what you mean with handlers
  305. # [11:10] <jgraham> The function at the start is called a handler, isn't it?
  306. # [11:14] <annevk> oh
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  357. # [14:17] <annevk> iPhone 4S (32GiB) in the US: 550 EUR thereabouts, in NL via T-Mobile: 750 EUR
  358. # [14:18] <annevk> I guess the US one does not include tax, but still
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  363. # [14:32] <Lachy> annevk, is VAT 25% in NL?
  364. # [14:35] <Timz> 19%
  365. # [14:35] <Lachy> 550 * 1.19 = 654.5. Still 100 EUR difference.
  366. # [14:36] <Timz> yes and also a dollar !== euro so more..
  367. # [14:36] <annevk> I already took that into account
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  369. # [14:36] <Timz> ok
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  374. # [14:40] <Lachy> woah, the EUR prices are even more than the AUD prices. 64GB model is 849 EUR in France, $999 AUD in Aus (~= 745.75 EUR)
  375. # [14:41] <micheil> Lachy: the US is probably not allowing you to buy out right
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  378. # [14:42] <micheil> the 999$AU is for buying it completely unlocked from an apple store with no sim attached
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  380. # [14:42] <micheil> (that's how I bought mine)
  381. # [14:42] <Lachy> micheil, yeah, I know. So is the France price
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  386. # [14:44] <annevk> micheil, actually you can buy an unlocked iPhone in the US
  387. # [14:44] <Lachy> micheil, http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_iphone/family/iphone/iphone4s
  388. # [14:44] <micheil> annevk: last I recall it was pretty damn hard to
  389. # [14:44] <Lachy> select a phone, then click "Or get iPhone unlocked and contract-free. Coming in November."
  390. # [14:44] <Lachy> the prices are tehre
  391. # [14:44] <Lachy> *there
  392. # [14:44] <annevk> I believe there is some delay, but come November the iPhone 4S should be available
  393. # [14:45] <micheil> hmm.. anyone happen to know where to go for developer support with firefox?
  394. # [14:45] <Lachy> "The unlocked iPhone will not work with CDMA carriers such as Verizon Wireless or Sprint." :-(
  395. # [14:47] <annevk> why does that matter Lachy?
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  397. # [14:52] <Lachy> annevk, it means that people who want to buy an unlocked phone are still effectively locked to using GSM networks in the US, and that they can't switch between Verizon and Sprint easily in the future if they get a locked phone.
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  399. # [14:54] <Lachy> that's not really a problem in countries where CDMA isn't used any more though, so at least it won't affect me.
  400. # [14:58] <annevk> just means CDMA is crappy
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  472. # [17:47] <zcorpan> annevk5: so jgraham and i wondered earlier why the dom has no way to dispatch an event async
  473. # [17:47] <zcorpan> annevk5: currently if you want that you have to abuse postMessage or xhr or something
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  477. # [17:54] <zewt> setTimeout(0) seems like the general way of doing anything "async" in JS
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  485. # [18:10] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  494. # Session Close: Wed Oct 19 18:19:38 2011
  495. #
  496. # Session Start: Wed Oct 19 18:19:38 2011
  497. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  501. # [18:20] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  502. # [18:20] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  506. # [18:27] <jarek> Hi
  507. # [18:27] <jarek> CSS3 selectors specification defines {simple_selector_sequence} as follows:
  508. # [18:27] <jarek> [ type_selector | universal ]
  509. # [18:27] <jarek> [ HASH | class | attrib | pseudo | negation ]*
  510. # [18:27] <jarek> | [ HASH | class | attrib | pseudo | negation ]+
  511. # [18:28] <jarek> why there is no '*' or '+' or '?' sign after [ type_selector | universal ] ?
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  514. # [18:28] <jarek> does it mean that there should be exactly one {type_selector} or {universal} at the start of {simple_selector_sequence}?
  515. # [18:29] <jarek> this would mean that something like '#header' is not a simple selector
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  518. # [18:36] <jarek> no, wait... it makes sense...
  519. # [18:36] <Philip`> jarek: "#header" matches HASH so it matches "[HASH | ...]+" so it matches "... | [HASH | ...]+", I think
  520. # Session Close: Wed Oct 19 18:36:23 2011
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  528. # [18:42] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  529. # [18:42] <jarek> s/one of both/one from the two
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  534. # [18:46] <jarek> "A sequence of simple selectors is a chain of simple selectors that are not separated by a combinator. It always begins with a type selector or a universal selector. No other type selector or universal selector is allowed in the sequence."
  535. # [18:47] <jarek> now I'm confused, selectors starting with '.blah' or '#blah' are not a sequence of simple selectors?
  536. # [18:50] <jarek> "If a universal selector represented by * (i.e. without a namespace prefix) is not the only component of a sequence of simple selectors selectors or is immediately followed by a pseudo-element, then the * may be omitted and the universal selector's presence implied."
  537. # [18:50] <Philip`> jarek: [ A | B ] means either A, or B
  538. # [18:51] <Philip`> (not both, and not neither)
  539. # [18:51] <jarek> so the grammar definition is wrong? It assumes that universal selector or type selector are always there
  540. # [18:51] <jarek> it doesn't take into account the fact that universal selector's presence might be implied
  541. # [18:52] <Philip`> I think the grouping is equivalent to "[ [type_selector|universal] [stuff]* ] | [stuff]+", not like "[type_selector|universal] [ [stuff]* | [stuff]+ ]"
  542. # [18:52] <Philip`> so if you don't have type_selector or universal, you need at least one of the stuff
  543. # [18:53] <Philip`> (i.e. you can't just have the empty string)
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  549. # [18:59] <zewt> Philip`: (clearer to say "means A xor B")
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  585. # [19:37] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  586. # [19:37] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  587. # [19:37] -calvino.freenode.net:#whatwg- [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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  677. # [22:29] <rniwa> Hixie: yt?
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  680. # [22:33] <Hixie> rniwa: about to go to lunch
  681. # [22:33] <rniwa> Hixie: k.
  682. # [22:33] <rniwa> Hixie: will ping you back later then :)
  683. # [22:33] <Hixie> k
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  709. # Session Close: Thu Oct 20 00:00:00 2011

The end :)