/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 24 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <zewt> Philip`: browsers should definitely expose more internals to their debuggers (bytecode, jit output, etc); browsers seem to treat developers like babies
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  9. # [00:10] <Philip`> zewt: Are any other similar languages any better than JS at this?
  10. # [00:12] <zewt> you can read back the bytecode of a function in Python (but it doesn't JIT so there's no analogue there, and I'm not sure how documented its bytecode is)
  11. # [00:13] <zewt> there's also the dis module, but i havn't looked at it much
  12. # [00:15] <zewt> (i wouldn't suggest that anything about this sort of thing should be anything but browser extensions; not limiting optimizations is far more important)
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  148. # [12:02] <annevk> zcorpan, hey did you think about a test format?
  149. # [12:02] <annevk> it would be great to have something like the HTML stuff
  150. # [12:02] <annevk> input, output, and input contains errors
  151. # [12:03] <annevk> and I guess we should have some shortcuts for input, so that you e.g. do not need to provide the signature, or cue time information
  152. # [12:03] <annevk> (in such a scenario they would just be pre-filled)
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  156. # [12:11] <annevk> lol
  157. # [12:11] <annevk> webrtc fork uses respec
  158. # [12:11] <smaug____> so, of the pages which nightly telemetry users have loaded, 2% has had mutation listeners :/
  159. # [12:12] <annevk> with the silly <dl> way of defining methods
  160. # [12:12] <smaug____> of course it is possible that gmail or some such has mutation listeners
  161. # [12:12] <smaug____> and every new message loads a new page or something...
  162. # [12:13] <annevk> is a different fragment identifier a new page?
  163. # [12:14] <smaug____> in this case? this is not based on urls, but effectively js windows
  164. # [12:14] <smaug____> s/js/dom/
  165. # [12:15] <smaug____> different pages get a new window
  166. # [12:15] <smaug____> (expect in certain cases with about:blank)
  167. # [12:15] <smaug____> except
  168. # [12:16] <annevk> ah, I think Gmail is pretty much all one window
  169. # [12:16] <annevk> oh, or maybe not
  170. # [12:16] <smaug____> it is using iframes everywhere
  171. # [12:16] <annevk> yeah, forgot about that, ignore me
  172. # [12:17] <smaug____> I should probably count usage per domain
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  174. # [12:17] <annevk> gotta catch a train
  175. # [12:17] <annevk> yeah
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  178. # [12:20] <foolip> zcorpan, do you have any suggestions for what to do about the "separating cues" issue?
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  180. # [12:24] <annevk> I wonder how wildly different Opera's <track> implementation is compared to mine
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  183. # [12:38] <karlcow> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=155295
  184. # [12:38] <karlcow> Refactoring the Web Interface
  185. # [12:38] <karlcow> John R. Douceur, Jon Howell, Bryan Parno, and Michael Walfish
  186. # [12:38] <karlcow> 24 October 2011
  187. # [12:38] <karlcow> http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155295/SOSP2011Poster.pdf and http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155295/SOSP2011PosterAbstract.pdf
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  190. # [12:44] <zcorpan> foolip: i'm thinking either tolerating whitespace between cues or starting a new cue when seeing a timing line
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  192. # [12:45] <smaug____> karlcow: looks like they want to bring not only one but many proprietary stacks to web
  193. # [12:46] <karlcow> yup looks like this
  194. # [12:46] <zcorpan> foolip: where timing line is a line containing -->. if you want --> in data, you'd need to escape it
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  196. # [12:46] <karlcow> or I didn't understand and it also seems like an interop nightmare
  197. # [12:47] <karlcow> and also the HTTP layer is placed in a strange place in their diagram.
  198. # [12:47] <smaug____> it certainly looks like interop nightmare
  199. # [12:47] <zcorpan> foolip: another thing that might be common is to not have two blank lines in "header", so the first cue gets eaten
  200. # [12:47] <smaug____> oh, hmm, http is nowhere near network
  201. # [12:48] <foolip> zcorpan, I would also prefer to have timing lines always start new cues and require escaping to allow "-->" inside cues
  202. # [12:49] <karlcow> this post is a lot more fun http://sebleedelisle.com/2011/09/pixelphones-a-huge-display-made-with-smart-phones/
  203. # [12:49] <karlcow> websocket inside
  204. # [12:49] <smaug____> people in research centers can propose many silly things. I certainly did at my time :)
  205. # [12:49] <foolip> zcorpan, second best would be to strip whitespace when collecting a line, but meh
  206. # [12:50] <karlcow> using the light sequences for localizing the phones is genius
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  208. # [12:54] <zcorpan> foolip: WDYT about cue in header?
  209. # [12:54] <foolip> zcorpan, you mean directly following WEBVTT?
  210. # [12:54] <zcorpan> yes
  211. # [12:55] <foolip> if we make a timing line always start a new cue I don't see why we couldn't make that work as well
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  213. # [12:55] <annevk> we want this because 1.3% contains an error currently?
  214. # [12:55] <annevk> of SRT files, no less...
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  216. # [12:55] <foolip> however, that particular error you are actually quite likely to notice, since it's the first cue
  217. # [12:55] <annevk> the current format seems much easier to read
  218. # [12:56] <annevk> and we have a validator of sorts now :)
  219. # [12:56] <foolip> annevk, except a validator doesn't complain about cues in cues, right?
  220. # [12:56] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't see any reason the error would be less common in VTT
  221. # [12:57] <annevk> foolip, it could warn
  222. # [12:57] <foolip> annevk, but it's valid per the syntax right now
  223. # [12:57] <zcorpan> annevk: "easy to read" is irrelevant since we're not suggesting changing what valid files look like
  224. # [12:58] <annevk> foolip, yeah making --> in cues invalid might be a good idea
  225. # [12:59] <zcorpan> making it invalid and start a new cue might be an even better idea :)
  226. # [12:59] <zcorpan> since it's what the author intended and what the user wants
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  228. # [12:59] <zcorpan> and what SRT does
  229. # [13:00] <annevk> euh okay...
  230. # [13:03] <annevk> SRT also does , and not .
  231. # [13:03] <annevk> still not sure why we don't do SRT if that's what everyone wants
  232. # [13:03] <annevk> can't really both argue we need a new format but UAs are also going to support SRT
  233. # [13:06] <zcorpan> SRT parsers support both , and .
  234. # [13:07] <zcorpan> personally i think we should have specified and extended SRT, but that's not where we're at
  235. # [13:08] <zcorpan> anyway, i'm not doing this to end up with SRT. i'm doing this to get error handling in VTT better based on what errors people do in SRT
  236. # [13:09] <zcorpan> e.g. it turned out that errors in timestamps was pretty rare, so i'm not proposing to make that more lax after researching that
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  245. # [13:21] <bga_> http://kizu.github.com/Castle-of-Sinister-Sorcerers/
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  248. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> anybody know when the content model for the <dt> element was changed to allow flow content?
  249. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> (instead of just phrasing content)
  250. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> seems it was some time after May 25
  251. # [13:48] <zcorpan> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6617&to=6618
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  253. # [13:51] <zcorpan> hmm. <b\n> gets dropped but <b \n> is parsed
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  255. # [13:52] <annevk> yeah white space rules in the parser are funky
  256. # [13:53] <annevk> I filed a bug on that
  257. # [13:53] <annevk> as they do not handle FF either
  258. # [13:53] <annevk> while the timing/setting algorithm does
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  260. # [13:55] <zcorpan> yeah
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  266. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: thanks
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  280. # [14:55] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: why was http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14552 not emailed to public-html?
  281. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: maybe because of teh component
  282. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> checking now
  283. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> yeah
  284. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> I have "other Hixie drafts" component set up to don't generate notifications to public-html
  285. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> but I can change that if you wan
  286. # [14:59] <zcorpan> foolip: ^
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  298. # [15:15] <foolip> MikeSmith (when back), was this changed recently? I've filed loads of bugs and can't remember this happening before
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  310. # [16:13] <annevk> foolip, <track> is in W3C HTML, WebVTT is not
  311. # [16:13] <annevk> foolip, I filed quite a few bugs on WebVTT nobody got emailed about either :(
  312. # [16:18] <foolip> annevk, how can I find them?
  313. # [16:19] <annevk> 14536 - 14543
  314. # [16:19] <annevk> and 14547
  315. # [16:19] <foolip> will add <track> to all of them
  316. # [16:19] <annevk> thanks!
  317. # [16:20] <rillian_> indeed!
  318. # [16:20] <annevk> I will add <track> in the future
  319. # [16:20] <rillian_> thanks annevk, I didn't see them either
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  321. # [16:23] <foolip> annevk, check http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/WebVTT to see if they're all listed
  322. # [16:23] <foolip> will mark the non-editorial ones as blocker as well
  323. # [16:33] <foolip> annevk, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14547 is not very clear
  324. # [16:34] <foolip> two issues in one
  325. # [16:34] <foolip> oops, was I mistaken to mark http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14551 as <track>?
  326. # [16:36] <zcorpan> you didn't mark it as <track> :)
  327. # [16:36] <foolip> zcorpan, did you?
  328. # [16:36] <foolip> oh, I'm not even CC'd, it must have been someone else
  329. # [16:37] <zcorpan> i filed it
  330. # [16:37] <annevk> foolip, tried to clarify it, did not bother with splitting the issue for now...
  331. # [16:39] <AryehGregor> jgraham, 1) If we're supposed to still use testharnessreport.js, why does the "Basic usage" section in testharness.js docs at the top of the file not mention it? It just says to add <script src="http://w3c-test.org/resources/testharness.js"></script>
  332. # [16:39] <AryehGregor> And 2) why is using an absolute URL wrong? Using a relative URL like that will break any checkout of the tests other than w3c-test.org. Users of other checkouts might not be able to put a resources directory in the web root.
  333. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> Or even if they can, why should they have to?
  334. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> I guess using a relative URL makes sense if you want to test what effect changes to the harness have on webapps tests, so you don't have to manually change the <script> URLs.
  335. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> (which is what I was doing)
  336. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> Anyway, if we want people to use relative URLs, testharness.js should say that. The way it says it should be used is with an absolute URL.
  337. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> annevk, ^^
  338. # [16:44] * Joins: spliter_ (~spliter@164.247.189.109.customer.cdi.no)
  339. # [16:45] <jgraham> AryehGregor: That example should prbably be changed
  340. # [16:45] <AryehGregor> jgraham, please do. It's what I was looking out to figure out how the harness should be used.
  341. # [16:46] <jgraham> Using absolute urls is wrong because it makes it harder for people to import the tests into their local testing systems
  342. # [16:47] <timeless> i'm not sure that's really true fwiw
  343. # [16:47] <jgraham> Using resources on external servers is horrible badness so one would need to muck about with DNS or something
  344. # [16:47] <timeless> mozilla's testharness actually redirects dns lookups iirc
  345. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> Or you could just do a search-and-replace on all the URLs as part of the process of checking them out.
  346. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> That would work too.
  347. # [16:47] <timeless> search and replace otoh tends to lead to merge hell
  348. # [16:47] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Non-trivial patches are always a source of pain
  349. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> You can search-and-replace it back before doing any kind of merge.
  350. # [16:48] <zewt> D:
  351. # [16:48] <jgraham> AryehGregor: GLWT if the person who made the original changes isn't the same person doing the update
  352. # [16:48] <jgraham> timeless: Yes, I think Mozilla do that. We typically don't (but could of course)
  353. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> If we're going to do it this way, then 1) don't assume people have control of the web root, or want to add a resources directory there -- make it relative to the current directory, not the root. 2) Post clear instructions somewhere on how you're supposed to clone the webapps tests, because as it stands a simple clone will be completely broken.
  354. # [16:49] <jgraham> In any case using relative URLs isn't bad for browser vendors, but absolue urls can be
  355. # [16:49] <timeless> fwiw, i'm not really sure where i sit on this
  356. # [16:49] <timeless> i have a spec i'm working on which has the absolute url in it
  357. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> Also, the dvcs.w3.org versions should really work if possible, so that you can easily look at old versions of the tests.
  358. # [16:50] <timeless> and i kind of wanted to be able to have a local instance w/o web access and w/o having to install a test harness
  359. # [16:50] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I think for any non-trivial use you will have to install locally
  360. # [16:50] <AryehGregor> Plus because it's confusing that they don't work.
  361. # [16:50] <AryehGregor> jgraham, yes, if only so that your tests don't suddenly behave differently one day because the remote copy changed . . .
  362. # [16:55] <AryehGregor> jgraham, is there a place to file bugs on the harness?
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  366. # [16:56] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I think bugzilla has a componen
  367. # [16:56] <jgraham> t
  368. # [16:56] <jgraham> Dunno if I get email though
  369. # [16:56] <jgraham> I hink I might
  370. # [16:57] <jgraham> +t
  371. # [16:57] <jgraham> Anyway fixed the documentation
  372. # [16:58] <jgraham> I think you could fix the webapps wiki to tell people how to set up a local copy of the testsuite
  373. # [16:58] <jgraham> Really testharness.js should be in its own repository
  374. # [16:58] <jgraham> Or one called "resources"
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  376. # [17:03] <AryehGregor> Is there any way to set up hg so that it automatically clones a second repo when you clone the first?
  377. # [17:03] <AryehGregor> So cloning the tests also clones the harness?
  378. # [17:03] <AryehGregor> Like SVN deps or git submodules or whatever?
  379. # [17:03] <timeless> hg subrepo
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  381. # [17:03] * AryehGregor hasn't used either of those features much, so might not understand how they work
  382. # [17:04] <timeless> basically you create a repo and add a .hgsub file which lists the two other repos you actually want
  383. # [17:04] <AryehGregor> So it would still be possible to clone the subrepo separately even though that might make no sense, I guess?
  384. # [17:05] <timeless> yes
  385. # [17:05] <timeless> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5621670/hg-sub-repository-dependencies
  386. # [17:05] <timeless> is probably worth reading (i haven't)
  387. # [17:05] <timeless> you could skip the mostly empty repo if you like and just have the main content one also have the subrepo directives
  388. # [17:05] <timeless> but if someone for instance has 5 wgs
  389. # [17:05] <timeless> or specs
  390. # [17:05] * AryehGregor is catching up on ten days of e-mail
  391. # [17:06] <timeless> and each spec has a sub dependency for the same third party repo
  392. # [17:06] <timeless> (call it "testharness")
  393. # [17:06] <timeless> then making them have 5 copies as subrepos is cruel
  394. # [17:06] <timeless> when they could instead have 5 repos as siblings to their one copy of that testharness repo
  395. # [17:06] <timeless> make sense?
  396. # [17:07] <timeless> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/Subrepository is the official documentation
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  413. # [17:24] <_bga> oh new js min trend, if(a != 15) -> if(a^15)
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  416. # [17:27] <nlogax> too bad they give different results
  417. # [17:28] <_bga> for a = 15.3 - yes
  418. # [17:28] <nlogax> 4294967311 ^ 15, 4294967311 != 15, oops
  419. # [17:28] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.163)
  420. # [17:28] <_bga> too
  421. # [17:29] <nlogax> but i'm sure it will take off anyway :D
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  426. # [17:37] <_bga> hm. if(a-15) !
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  429. # [17:39] <zewt> a somewhat more effective way of making code smaller: deflate.
  430. # [17:39] <Philip`> An even more effective way: write less code
  431. # [17:40] <_bga> i know but for guys from 140bytes its sport
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  433. # [17:46] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  434. # [17:47] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  435. # [17:49] <divya> காலை வனக்கம் dglazkov!
  436. # [17:49] <dglazkov> that looks curly
  437. # [17:50] <_bga> i need google translate plugin for IRC client
  438. # [17:51] <nlogax> http://scripts.irssi.org/scripts/gtrans.pl
  439. # [17:53] <_bga> thanks :)
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  447. # [18:00] <annevk> AryehGregor, I didn't know about the bogus documentation (does it also say to not have testharnessreport.js?), hopefully it's not too hard to revert
  448. # [18:00] <hsivonen> Gnome Terminal fails with Tamil :-(
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  453. # [18:15] <dglazkov> divya: what language is it?
  454. # [18:16] <divya> dglazkov: tamil :)
  455. # [18:16] <divya> CURLYY
  456. # [18:16] <divya> hahaha it is curly
  457. # [18:17] <dglazkov> cool. India is a crazy place. So many languages. So many people. So many foods to try
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  459. # [18:17] <divya> http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|காலை%20வனக்கம்
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  461. # [18:17] <divya> almost there I meant good morning. :P
  462. # [18:17] <divya> it is very crazy
  463. # [18:17] <divya> and I am trying all the delish foood now.
  464. # [18:20] <dglazkov> has anyone figured out why some countries are really big on delicious food and some are like, "Potatoes!!!"
  465. # [18:21] <divya> hahahah
  466. # [18:21] <divya> good point.
  467. # [18:22] <divya> ya funny thing chillies were not native to India but indians are big on spice.
  468. # [18:22] <divya> err i mean heat
  469. # [18:22] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  477. # [18:39] <jgraham> dglazkov: Climate, mostly, I think
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  482. # [18:55] <rabbi1> how to make a website I view float left ?
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  492. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> annevk, yes, it didn't mention testharnessreport.js anymore. jgraham fixed it: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/rev/bcf81d8686ab
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  523. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Are init*Event() methods deprecated in new APIs? If so, what's the correct replacement, event constructors?
  524. # [20:43] <Hixie> yes and yes
  525. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> k.
  526. # [20:43] <Hixie> not just deprecated, they shouldn't be added at all
  527. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> That's what I mean.
  528. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> Where's an example of event constructors in a spec that I can point to?
  529. # [20:45] <Hixie> all of HTML's events are done that way
  530. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> Okay.
  531. # [20:45] <Hixie> search for ": Event {"
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  534. # [20:51] <heycam> Hixie, you didn't remove the existing init* methods though did you?
  535. # [20:51] <Hixie> yes
  536. # [20:52] <Hixie> they are gone
  537. # [20:52] <heycam> even for interfaces that have been deployed for a while?
  538. # [20:52] <Hixie> none of the events defined in the html spec are particularly old
  539. # [20:52] <Hixie> none of the event interfaces, i should say
  540. # [20:52] <heycam> ah, ok
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  543. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Hixie, is the "resolve a URL" algorithm in the spec correct/stable?
  544. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> I seem to recall it wandered around a bit.
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  547. # [21:07] * AryehGregor determines it's way too complicated to incorporate into reflection tests anyway, bleh
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  560. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> Hm, it appears that all of my windows have lost their decorations. Time to reboot, I guess.
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  562. # [21:58] <bga_> http://mobile.twitter.com/wendyg/status/128554733714669568
  563. # [21:58] <paul_irish> "R.I.P. John McCarthy, father of AI, inventor of Lisp, suddenly at home last night. Pls RT."
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  568. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> jgraham, what should we do when doing assert_throws() with new exception types, like INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR?
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  570. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait, never mind.
  571. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> It was a typo on my part.
  572. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> I mean, the current testharness.js still doesn't match the spec, but that can be fixed.
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  606. # [23:08] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yt?
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  608. # [23:11] <zewt> chrome accepts xhr.responseType = "blob" but xhr.response comes back as null? :(
  609. # [23:11] <zewt> (maybe I'm doing something wrong, but if they don't support it yet, it shouldn't accept "blob" in the first place)
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  612. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> rniwa, yep.
  613. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> (not for long, though)
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  615. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> (around half an hour)
  616. # [23:14] <rniwa> AryehGregor: k
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  618. # [23:14] <rniwa> AryehGregor: thanks for responding to my emails :)
  619. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> rniwa, I'll write some more tomorrow.
  620. # [23:14] <rniwa> AryehGregor: I totally understand the delays and all that jazz so take your time :)
  621. # [23:14] <rniwa> AryehGregor: especially given that you're no longer compensated for your work
  622. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> rniwa, actually, I am.
  623. # [23:14] <rniwa> oh good!
  624. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> If I weren't, I wouldn't be doing it. :)
  625. # [23:14] <rniwa> glad to hear that
  626. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> (but I expect to continue to be compensated by someone)
  627. # [23:15] <rniwa> okay, I feel less guilty to delegate more work to you then :P
  628. # [23:15] <rniwa> AryehGregor: anyway, the immediate concern for me is whether my spec should define what undo/redo events do or not
  629. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> rniwa, it would make sense.
  630. # [23:16] <rniwa> ok
  631. # [23:16] <rniwa> AryehGregor: the biggest problem I have with how selection is restored on undo/redo
  632. # [23:17] <rniwa> AryehGregor: also, there are many selection behaviors that can't be cross-plaform
  633. # [23:17] <rniwa> e.g. extending between word boundaries on Windows and Mac use different conventions to include/exclude trailing whitespace
  634. # [23:17] <rniwa> so those things probably need to be investigated
  635. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  636. # [23:18] <rniwa> though I don't think it'll affect undo/redo that much
  637. # [23:18] <rniwa> except the one case I pointed out which is whether or not the deleted content should be selected after undo
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  648. # Session Close: Tue Oct 25 00:00:00 2011

The end :)