/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 26 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:11] <Hixie> abarth: you want to replace the text of step 3 in all cases, and have the text examine the state of the (first/last) meta header
  7. # [00:11] <Hixie> abarth: you can't exactly have the user agent be required to change the spec based on the state of a meta header each time it loads a page :-P
  8. # [00:11] <abarth> ok
  9. # [00:11] <abarth> which meta header usually controls?
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  11. # [00:11] <abarth> meta element
  12. # [00:11] <abarth> rather
  13. # [00:11] <abarth> (the first or the last)
  14. # [00:12] <Hixie> this is a meta name="" value?
  15. # [00:12] <Hixie> looks like none of the existing meta name values have UA requirements
  16. # [00:13] <Hixie> abarth: for http-equiv, looks like there's a slight preference for first-wins
  17. # [00:13] <Hixie> of course, <base> is last-wins
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  31. # [00:58] <michaelw> after "e.onload = f;" (f being a valid function object), what should e.getAttribute("onload"); return?
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  42. # [01:11] <_bga> michaelw null in webkit
  43. # [01:11] <_bga> you set propety
  44. # [01:11] <_bga> not attibute
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  46. # [01:14] <michaelw> _bga: with that reasoning, the value of the attribute should not change from what it was previously
  47. # [01:15] <michaelw> _bga: also getAttribute returns a DOMString
  48. # [01:15] <michaelw> IMO, it should return
  49. # [01:15] <michaelw> ""
  50. # [01:16] <michaelw> (the empty string), sorry for the extra newline
  51. # [01:16] <_bga> of course
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  70. # [02:10] <Hixie> zewt: i think if you think that a self-signed cert provides any security you have not attempted to mitm anyone
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  72. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Still better than nothing.
  73. # [02:12] <Hixie> i think it might actually be worse than nothing
  74. # [02:12] * TabAtkins is annoyed at browsers being paranoid about self-signed certs when they don't say a thing about login forms over http.
  75. # [02:12] <Hixie> because it gives a significantly distorted sense of security
  76. # [02:13] <TabAtkins> The correct sense is "better than nothing, worse than CA-signed".
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  78. # [02:13] <Hixie> it's really not particularly better than nothing
  79. # [02:13] <Hixie> it's trivial to mitm somebody and offer them an identical-looking cert
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  82. # [02:18] <zewt> it doesn't create any sense of security when implemented correctly; and it's very hard (impossible) to MITM on a large scale without anyone being able to find out
  83. # [02:19] <Hixie> it's very hard to passively sniff on a large scale too
  84. # [02:19] <zewt> orders of magnitude easier
  85. # [02:19] <Hixie> actually not really
  86. # [02:19] <zewt> untrusted crypto shouldn't be presented to users as a "secure connection"; it should just be there, invisible to the user as part of the protocol
  87. # [02:20] <Hixie> mitm'ing self-signed certs on a network where you control all the inbound and outbound traffic can be done completely transparently to anyone except those actually checking the fingerprints
  88. # [02:20] <zewt> eg. if all of my HTTP traffic was encrypted but not signed, and I suspected my ISP of MITM'ing to work around it, I could find out
  89. # [02:20] <zewt> but none of it is encrypted, so I have no way whatsoever of finding out
  90. # [02:21] <Hixie> you just have the routers do the TLS handshake and switch the server's cert for a dynamically-generated one
  91. # [02:21] <Hixie> why would you suspect your ISP?
  92. # [02:21] <zewt> why would I not?
  93. # [02:21] <zewt> or any other party with access
  94. # [02:21] <Hixie> have you _ever_ checked the fingerprint of _any_ self-signed cert?
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  96. # [02:22] <Hixie> btw, in the context of this discussion (websocket) the user isn't presented with anything, secure or not
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  98. # [02:22] <zewt> like i said, i didn't mean this as an objection against this particular case
  99. # [02:22] <Hixie> that's why it's critical to only accept secure connections if the requested protocol is wss:
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  101. # [02:23] <zewt> my objection is to convincing innocent bystanders that untrusted crypto is the same as cleartext, which it just isn't
  102. # [02:23] <Hixie> my objection is to convincing innocent bystanders that untrusted crypto is any better than cleartext, which it just isn't
  103. # [02:24] <zewt> then your objection is factually wrong
  104. # [02:24] <Hixie> as is yours :-P
  105. # [02:24] <Hixie> but worse, yours instills a false sense of security
  106. # [02:24] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  107. # [02:25] <zewt> if there was large-scale MITM'ing of unsigned SSL connections taking place by ISPs or backbone routers, I'd expect to see people notice; it'd be an easy thing to honeypot
  108. # [02:25] <Hixie> luckily, as there's no large-scale use of self-signed certs, it's not an issue
  109. # [02:25] <zewt> (wrong term, but right meaning)
  110. # [02:26] <zewt> i don't subscribe to the "hixie says trust-me" model of security, sorry :)
  111. # [02:26] <Hixie> my model is "don't trust me or anyone"
  112. # [02:27] <Hixie> https://blog.startcom.org/?p=125#more-125
  113. # [02:27] <zewt> and in order to (not) do so, i prefer protocols that cause sniffing to require stream tampering to those that don't
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  115. # [02:28] <Hixie> when was the last time you or anyone you know actually checked the fingerprint of a self-signed cert?
  116. # [02:28] <Hixie> that is the _only_ way you could tell if it was happening
  117. # [02:28] <zewt> ff's cert stuff is completely bogus--not that it shows bad certs, it's that it intentionally has a bad UI for it to make it annoying, which is never okay
  118. # [02:29] <zewt> we're not in an environment where that makes sense, because most of the traffic that could be in that category (encrypted but not signed) is currently cleartext
  119. # [02:29] <Hixie> i really think you underestimate the difficulty of mounting a mitm attack
  120. # [02:30] <zewt> even if so, i don't understate the detectability
  121. # [02:30] <Hixie> from personal experience, i can tell you that it is not even remotely difficult to do it in a way that nobody can notice
  122. # [02:30] <Hixie> s/can notice/does notice/
  123. # [02:30] <Hixie> nobody knows the fingerprint of any of the servers they use
  124. # [02:30] <zewt> right now there's no reason to set up "honeypot traffic" like that; everything's just plaintext, so nobody has any incentive to do those sorts of large-scale MITMs, all they have to do is sniff
  125. # [02:32] <Hixie> all the interesting stuff is encrypted with signed certs
  126. # [02:32] <zewt> 1: cleartext traffic becomes encrypted 2: passive attacks no longer work; everyone using them either has to stop sniffing traffic or start tampering with data; 3: now you have a good reason to implement detection for that (eg. machines that just talk to random servers with known certificates to see if anyone's being evil)
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  128. # [02:33] <Hixie> in a world where everyone used encryption with no signing, sure
  129. # [02:33] <Hixie> we're not, and never will be, in that world
  130. # [02:33] <Hixie> so it's irrelevant
  131. # [02:33] <zewt> hixie knows the future!
  132. # [02:34] <zewt> SPDY encrypts everything, signed or not, for example
  133. # [02:34] <zewt> (not to say i expect SPDY to take over)
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  136. # [02:37] <zewt> i don't rule out a meaningful amount of cleartext data turning into encrypted data, but the chances of that definitely decrease when people claim that unsigned == cleartext
  137. # [02:37] <zewt> which is why it bothers me when I see it
  138. # [02:38] <Hixie> it bothers me because what you advocate increases the odds of people using unsigned encryption instead of signed encryption, which is extremely insecure
  139. # [02:39] <Hixie> users don't understand any of this stuff. They think "encrypted" means "safe" and that simply isn't the case.
  140. # [02:39] <zewt> we're not talking to users, we're talking to developers
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  142. # [02:39] <zewt> users should certainly never see unsigned traffic as "secure"
  143. # [02:39] <Hixie> it's better to have plaintext that we can assume is sniffed than encrypted that we falsely assume is not
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  145. # [02:39] <Hixie> users, developers, they don't understand it any better
  146. # [02:39] <zewt> if a developer doesn't understand it then he should have nothing to do with implementing it
  147. # [02:40] <zewt> i have little pity for developers who implement a "secure protocol" without knowing what they're doing, heh
  148. # [02:40] <Hixie> web developers do this all the time
  149. # [02:40] <Hixie> so in the real world, we have to take that into account
  150. # [02:40] <zewt> web developers use browser facilities, they don't implement encryption themselves
  151. # [02:42] <zewt> until someone has an epiphany and figures out a signing scheme where everyone can sign all of their traffic for free, I'll take partial security with known, quantifiable weaknesses than no security in a second
  152. # [02:42] <zewt> s/than/over/
  153. # [02:43] <Hixie> web developers decide whether to use self-signed certs or not
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  186. # [03:50] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  233. # [07:31] <hsivonen> hmm. "Bug reports submitted from a group of experts however can give more weight to bug reports, and assure browser/tool vendors that suggested fixes are appropriate."
  234. # [07:32] <hsivonen> from http://www.html4all.org/staging/a11y-bugs/
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  236. # [07:37] <hsivonen> The intro text on http://a11ybugs.org/ reminds me of CSS11
  237. # [07:37] <hsivonen> a11y15?
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  240. # [07:42] <hsivonen> what's the deal with the bad escaping in the <title> at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2854 ?
  241. # [07:42] <hsivonen> I guess HTML is hard. no wonder they prefer plain text.
  242. # [07:43] <hsivonen> Which RFC has the syntax for the charset parameter?
  243. # [07:45] * hsivonen tries https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2046
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  245. # [07:46] <hsivonen> RFCs need more hypertext
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  247. # [07:57] <hsivonen> aargh. where does https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2045 say what a quoted-string is?
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  274. # [09:01] <hsivonen> haha. since when has the HTML LS spec had a photo of a sink in it?
  275. # [09:02] <hsivonen> kitchen sink even, though it's not immediately obvious that the photo is indeed from a kitchen
  276. # [09:06] <hsivonen> is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#interactive the closest the spec has for defining how to tell the XHTML syntax and the HTML syntax apart?
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  282. # [09:20] <hsivonen> filed as http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14565
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  300. # [09:59] <foolip> zcorpan, context?
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  302. # [10:04] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14552
  303. # [10:06] <zcorpan> foolip: in particular supporting // in cue data seems annoying
  304. # [10:06] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  305. # [10:07] <foolip> zcorpan, I think it's not a big deal as it will mostly mess with URLs, but not having it also doesn't seem like a problem
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  309. # [10:16] <zcorpan> breaking URLs seems annoying :)
  310. # [10:22] <foolip> Hixie still seems to like his COMMENT --> blocks
  311. # [10:26] <nessy> hi foolip
  312. # [10:26] <foolip> hi nessy
  313. # [10:26] <nessy> do you have a different suggestion for how to get comment blocks and similar header style information into WebVTT?
  314. # [10:26] <foolip> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14552 is what we've implemented
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  317. # [10:31] <nessy> // is a really bad idea because we won't get urls easily then
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  319. # [10:31] <nessy> also, are you suggesting to use comment syntax to make header blocks in WebVTT, such as style, metadata etc?
  320. # [10:36] <foolip> No, we're suggest that it just be comments, things that can be pre-processed away and has no effect on anything whatsoever
  321. # [10:36] <foolip> not visible by scripts, unlike DOM comments
  322. # [10:37] <foolip> zcorpan, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14260#c17 seems reasonable, right?
  323. # [10:40] <zcorpan> seems reasonable
  324. # [10:41] <nessy> foolip, we need some kind of sectioning of header stuff (not for browsers, but for desktop players), and the cue syntax provides for that
  325. # [10:41] <nessy> so, unless we find a better parsing landmark that helps with sectioning, I am with Ian
  326. # [10:41] <foolip> nessy, sure, I think that's an orthogonal issue to comment syntax, though
  327. # [10:42] <nessy> I think we could tolerate /* */
  328. # [10:42] <nessy> but using // is a really bad idea IMHO
  329. # [10:43] <foolip> sure, please comment as such
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  332. # [11:06] <nessy> ok, done :-)
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  342. # [12:02] <zcorpan> nessy: what you wrote in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14552 doesn't work
  343. # [12:02] <zcorpan> 00:01.000 --> <00:02.000
  344. # [12:02] <zcorpan> that will just cause that cue to be dropped
  345. # [12:03] <nessy> oh, because of the empty line?
  346. # [12:03] <nessy> hmm, I guess you're right
  347. # [12:03] <zcorpan> no
  348. # [12:03] <zcorpan> because the timings line is invalid
  349. # [12:03] <zcorpan> so the cue gets dropped
  350. # [12:04] <nessy> ah, that, too
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  364. # [13:21] <nessy> gah, issue-179 raises its head! I was hoping it would be forgotten...
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  426. # [17:22] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I just realized the Selection stuff in the editing spec wasn't all written by me.
  427. # [17:22] <AryehGregor> I think that means other people who contributed parts of it have to agree to the contributor agreement, or somesuch.
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  433. # [17:40] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  439. # [18:04] <J_Voracek> Good morning dglazkov!
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  441. # [18:05] <dglazkov> I think he totally joined only to greet me.
  442. # [18:05] <dglazkov> that proves it that I am famous
  443. # [18:05] <myakura> night whatwg.
  444. # [18:05] * myakura yawns.
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  451. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> For out-of-range indices, should getters return null or undefined?
  452. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> localStorage returns null, but I thought everyone agreed that was a bad idea.
  453. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> UndoManager also seems to return null, and I'm not sure whether to suggest it change to undefined.
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  456. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> Ugh, no ICS upgrade for Nexus One: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/8848669/Android-upgrade-for-Google-Nexus-S-in-weeks.html
  457. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> That stinks. I thought the whole point of Google's official phones was that they'd actually upgrade the OS.
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  462. # [18:46] <zewt> google does not have much of a track record for updating "flagship" android devices
  463. # [18:46] <zewt> (rather the opposite)
  464. # [18:48] <hsivonen> zewt: better track record than the track record vendors have with non-Nexus phones
  465. # [18:49] <zewt> that's like saying "mcdonalds has better food than that box of broken glass and rusty staples"
  466. # [18:49] <zewt> likely true, but...
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  468. # [18:50] <hsivonen> Everyone's except Apple's phone OS update story is really sad
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  507. # [20:37] <bencc> what browsers plan to support webrtc?
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  520. # [21:26] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  521. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  522. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Looks like my gentest.html produces a sad tab in Chrome dev now.
  523. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> That's bad.
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  535. # [21:50] * eric_carlson is now known as ericc|away
  536. # [21:53] * AryehGregor isolates the issue
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  539. # [21:58] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  540. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=101791
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  579. # [23:26] <leaverou> hi there, can somebody please tell me what output they get in IE10 from this? http://jsfiddle.net/leaverou/bFetP/show Thanks!
  580. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> The IE DOM is so bizarre sometimes...
  581. # [23:31] <leaverou> yeah, it keeps unknown properties
  582. # [23:31] <leaverou> and drops unknown values in known properties!
  583. # [23:31] <leaverou> and alas, I was hoping those flags might solve it for IE, but no
  584. # [23:31] <leaverou> maybe outerHTML
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  587. # [23:38] <leaverou> geez, it's even removed from outerHTML /cc TabAtkins
  588. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> leaverou: Yeah, it must happen during parsing.
  589. # [23:39] <leaverou> so there's absolutely no workaround you think?
  590. # [23:39] <bga_> oh leaverou here
  591. # [23:39] <leaverou> bga_: hey
  592. # [23:39] <bga_> :)
  593. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> leaverou: Unless there's something really tricky, at this point I think not.
  594. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> But IE has surprised us in the past with nonsensical workarounds.
  595. # [23:40] <leaverou> TabAtkins: I'll ping Rey, it's our last hope I guess
  596. # [23:41] <leaverou> TabAtkins: so that's why CSS3PIE requires different properties even for values!!
  597. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Ah, that makes sense.
  598. # [23:42] <smaug____> TabAtkins: haven't all the browsers surprised us with nonsensical workarounds. :)
  599. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> smaug____: I don't know if anything will ever top the IE shiv for the new elements. ^_^
  600. # [23:42] <leaverou> smaug____: I think IE is the champion of that though
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  604. # Session Close: Thu Oct 27 00:00:00 2011

The end :)