/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 01 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <gsnedders> All the <data> is Hixie's?
  4. # [00:00] <annevk> All the <base> are belong to Hixie?
  5. # [00:01] <gsnedders> annevk: Dude, it's not 2001.
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  8. # [00:03] <annevk> <br>eaking <b>ad
  9. # [00:03] * annevk is bad at HTML puns
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  13. # [00:05] <annevk> okay
  14. # [00:05] <annevk> so you have
  15. # [00:05] <annevk> new Event(x, dict)
  16. # [00:05] <annevk> and you have
  17. # [00:05] <annevk> document.createEvent(eventInterface)
  18. # [00:05] <annevk> the latter does not have access to x and dict
  19. # [00:05] <annevk> but they still need to be defined
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  21. # [00:06] <annevk> so instead DOM defines how they are all initialized when you create an event object
  22. # [00:06] <annevk> and how dict overwrites anything, if any
  23. # [00:06] <annevk> (everything from okay above is for jgraham)
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  26. # [00:10] <jgraham> Just define createEvent(x) as being equivalent to new Event(x, {})
  27. # [00:10] <heycam> not exactly
  28. # [00:11] <heycam> x == "MouseEvent" for example
  29. # [00:11] <heycam> for the former
  30. # [00:11] <heycam> but "click" for the latter
  31. # [00:11] <heycam> (well the latter you'd want new MouseEvent(...))
  32. # [00:11] <annevk> x != eventInterface
  33. # [00:11] <jgraham> Oh, OK
  34. # [00:12] <heycam> but I agree with the general approach
  35. # [00:12] <heycam> we need to make sure though that individual event/constructors always have default values for all dictionary members
  36. # [00:12] <heycam> so that createEvent's definition doesn't need to worry about that
  37. # [00:12] <jgraham> Yes
  38. # [00:12] <heycam> or, that constructors for events are all defined in the same way
  39. # [00:12] <annevk> you don't do that by defining default values for dictionary members
  40. # [00:13] <annevk> you do that by defining default values for the attributes
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  42. # [00:14] * heycam is not sure about that
  43. # [00:14] <heycam> unless that's part of the definitions you have in dom4
  44. # [00:14] <jgraham> It just seems like a reasonable invariant that dictionary members always have values
  45. # [00:15] <annevk> heycam, it is, and it is how HTML defines it's events as well
  46. # [00:15] <heycam> ok
  47. # [00:15] <annevk> leading to me thinking that we should not have "= false" or some such in dictionaries
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  49. # [00:17] <heycam> and just assume whatever undefined converts to?
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  53. # [00:20] <annevk> well you have boolean withCredentials
  54. # [00:20] <zewt> annevk: looking at Progress Events as an example, where is the initialization of ProgressEvent from a ProgressEventInit defined? somewhere in webidl? (don't see it in [Constructor])
  55. # [00:20] <annevk> if you set that to undefined, I guess it will make that false
  56. # [00:20] <annevk> zewt, DOM4
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  58. # [00:21] <zewt> found it
  59. # [00:21] <zewt> annevk: might be useful for eventInitDict to be a ref to dom4 Constructing events
  60. # [00:22] <annevk> maybe for "Constructor"
  61. # [00:22] <zewt> well that would ref webidl [Constructor] if anything, right?
  62. # [00:22] <annevk> no
  63. # [00:23] <annevk> typically it refers the definition in the draft
  64. # [00:23] <zewt> i mean the word Constructor is from webidl, it's "eventInitDict" that ties to dom4
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  66. # [00:23] <annevk> no
  67. # [00:23] <annevk> eventInitDict is just a meaningless name
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  69. # [00:24] <zewt> it's definitely not meaningless, the name is given specific meaning in dom4
  70. # [00:24] <annevk> no
  71. # [00:24] <annevk> you cannot give parameter names meaning
  72. # [00:24] <annevk> that's nonsense
  73. # [00:24] <zewt> you did give parameter names meaning
  74. # [00:24] <annevk> in fact
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  76. # [00:24] <annevk> if I did that, type would be undefined
  77. # [00:24] <annevk> no I didn't
  78. # [00:24] <zewt> anyway the only point was to make it easier to see where this is defined
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  80. # [00:25] <annevk> right, for that it would make sense to link Constructor, as we do elsewhere
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  83. # [00:26] <zewt> jgraham: i think a (the?) benefit of defining the defaults anne's way is that if you ever construct an event interface in more than one way (eg. internally), you have all of the defaults in one place
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  85. # [00:27] <zewt> since if you construct an event internally (eg. "fire a progress event"), you're not using the dictionary at all
  86. # [00:27] <jgraham> Yeah, I see that. But I am not sure that is the most important property
  87. # [00:28] <zewt> other than that they seem roughly equivalent to me
  88. # [00:28] <jgraham> I could be wrong of course
  89. # [00:28] <zewt> if you could drop the prose initialization entirely then I'd agree, since it's just more concise to put them in the idl
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  91. # [00:29] <zewt> (agree on first look anyway, might be other factors I don't know about)
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  195. # [04:47] <Hixie> jgraham: yt?
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  198. # [05:10] <Hixie> is pms broken for anyone else?
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  215. # [05:34] <jarek> Hi
  216. # [05:35] <jarek> are there any chances for getting ::selection pseudo-element back in CSS Selectors spec?
  217. # [05:35] <jarek> it seems to be supported by all major browsers
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  219. # [05:37] <jarek> even IE9 supports it
  220. # [05:38] <jarek> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/%3a%3aselection
  221. # [05:39] <jarek> I wonder why all browsers except Firefox are using unprefixed version
  222. # [05:39] <jgraham> Hixie: Sems to be at least a bit up
  223. # [05:39] <jgraham> +e
  224. # [05:40] <Hixie> jgraham: http://pimpmyspec.net/aquarium.py/output?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2Fsource-whatwg-complete&process_filter=on&process_toc=on&process_xref=on&process_sub=on&process_annotate=on&filter=&annotation=&newline_char=LF&tab_char=SPACE&min_depth=2&max_depth=6&w3c_compat_xref_a_placement=on&parser=lxml.html&serializer=html5lib&output_encoding=ascii
  225. # [05:40] <Hixie> jgraham: gives me an exception
  226. # [05:40] <Hixie> gotta go, bbiab
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  229. # [05:42] <jgraham> Hixie: node=<?p?> in the traceback looks suspicious
  230. # [05:43] <jgraham> My first guess is that it is falling over on a PI that shouldn't be there
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  232. # [05:53] <divya> foolip: does this html to atom algo removal mean there is no more toatom microdata interface?
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  244. # [06:41] <Hixie> jgraham: ah, good to know, didn't realise PIs would be a problem
  245. # [06:41] <Hixie> jgraham: fixed, retrying
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  250. # [06:51] <jgraham> Hixie: Yeah, it has no idea how to serialize them. That could be seen as a bug
  251. # [06:51] * jgraham -> sleep
  252. # [06:51] <Hixie> nn
  253. # [06:51] <Hixie> (that did fix it btw)
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  256. # [07:06] <boblet> hey all, does XML (and by extension XHTML5) require lowercase element/attribute names?
  257. # [07:07] <Hixie> XML does not, though it is case-sensitive. All the elements in XHTML are lowercase, so it effectively does.
  258. # [07:07] <Hixie> elements and attributes
  259. # [07:08] <boblet> Hixie: All the elements in XHTML are lowercase meaning XHTML 1.x right? thanks
  260. # [07:08] <Hixie> meaning XHTML, any version
  261. # [07:08] <boblet> aah ok
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  282. # [09:19] <hsivonen> I wonder how often the 2D canvas is used for vector drawing vs. bitmap blitting
  283. # [09:19] <hsivonen> also, I wonder what vector drawing use cases there are in the wild that wouldn't be more appropriate as SVG
  284. # [09:21] <hsivonen> what ojan said in IRC logs about SVG name case handling scares me
  285. # [09:21] <hsivonen> I wish Chrome just did what Firefox does (which is spec-wise right) and now try to invent new behaviors
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  293. # [09:43] * hsivonen sees "Our mission is to create the semantic web." in an HTML WG bug comment
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  304. # [10:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think the websocket garbage collection rules might need tweaking now that message can't be fired in CLOSING (can error be fired in CLOSING?)
  305. # [10:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think i see more typos in r6798 (s/the// s/it/if/)
  306. # [10:15] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, filed
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  310. # [10:22] <hsivonen> maybe I should email ojan with references to relevant Gecko bugs to avoid a situation where Chrome just proceeds to make stuff up
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  320. # [10:35] <Ms2ger> glwt
  321. # [10:40] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, I believe the conclusion was "What the hell? We don't want to implement that"
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  367. # [14:16] <JakeA> Anyone know why — in html comments are still disallowed?
  368. # [14:17] <JakeA> Stupid auto correct, I mean -- of course
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  370. # [14:17] <Ms2ger> It is allowed now, IIRC
  371. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> Hmm, I'm wrong
  372. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> Not sure
  373. # [14:19] <Ms2ger> Because that breaks in some browser versions, perhaps
  374. # [14:19] <JakeA> Wonder if there's a particular faulty browser that goes nuts, or if it just wasn't considered to be relaxed
  375. # [14:19] <JakeA> yeah
  376. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Firefox < 4, I think?
  377. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Some versions of Opera as well, I suspect
  378. # [14:20] <zcorpan> we generally want legal trees to be serializable in both text/html and xml
  379. # [14:21] <zcorpan> but i guess it will be changed at some point
  380. # [14:21] <JakeA> Makes sense, I guess it should be covered by the error handling, maybe already is
  381. # [14:22] <JakeA> Cheers guys
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  397. # [15:14] <bga_> how easy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNWcy8S2k4Y
  398. # [15:14] <bga_> like flexbox
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  420. # [16:13] <zcorpan> is automatically resizable textarea solved already by css.next ?
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  475. # [17:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14596#c3
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  485. # [17:53] <annevk> Hixie, I think we should remove FF now from WebVTT, I know you don't care, but I do a little bit
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  491. # [17:59] <Hixie> annevk: why?
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  493. # [18:00] <Hixie> annevk: it's a pain to do (e.g. means implementors and i have to duplicate their definitions of "skip whitespace", "space character", etc)
  494. # [18:00] <Hixie> annevk: what's the benefit?
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  580. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> Hmm, Hixie fixed bug 1462814628
  581. # [20:49] <oconnore> is there an html5lib fork compatible with python3?
  582. # [20:49] <oconnore> I pulled from: https://github.com/mikexstudios/html5lib-python
  583. # [20:49] <oconnore> er.. cloned
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  585. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> oconnore, yeah, but it's rather out of date
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  587. # [20:52] <oconnore> Ms2ger: what would you use that is up to date?
  588. # [20:52] <Ms2ger> The python2 version
  589. # [20:52] <oconnore> hmm, python people are so weird...
  590. # [20:52] <oconnore> ok
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  592. # [20:53] <Ms2ger> Lots of work, little benefit..
  593. # [20:54] <oconnore> utf8 by default is pretty spiffy :)
  594. # [20:54] <oconnore> is that github link a reasonably up to date python 2 version?
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  596. # [20:55] <hober> whoa, confusing nick :)
  597. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
  598. # [20:55] <oconnore> uploaded jan 2010?
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  602. # [21:06] <heycam> jamesr, ping
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  607. # [21:09] <gsnedders> oconnore: Expect html5lib to start working with Python3 again within a week
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  609. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> Oh?
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  613. # [21:10] <gsnedders> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=187
  614. # [21:10] <gsnedders> Most of the work was done by jgraham ages ago, it's just we've regressed 2to3 making something useful
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  617. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> Philip`, you don't happen to have time to have a look at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14356 ?
  618. # [21:14] <gsnedders> I'm just in general planning on trying to crack through as many html5lib issues as possible after all my work due in tomorrow is done
  619. # [21:14] <gsnedders> Speaking of which, I should do some of that :)
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  621. # [21:21] <dglazkov> Hixie: are you coming to webapps?
  622. # [21:22] <annevk> Hixie: so the reason to remove FF is because cache manifests don't have it either
  623. # [21:22] <annevk> Hixie: if you think we should have FF we should add it to cache manifests I suppose
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  633. # [21:33] <oconnore> gsnedders: thanks!
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  638. # [21:38] <jamesr_> heycam, pong
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  642. # [21:38] <heycam> jamesr_, hey. I'm at TPAC, I'm going to be meeting with the Web Perf WG in half an hour.
  643. # [21:38] <heycam> jamesr_, and I've been ignore raf for a while :)
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  645. # [21:38] <jamesr_> cool! i'm not able to attend any TPAC stuff this round
  646. # [21:38] <heycam> jamesr_, so just wanted to check in and see what the status is
  647. # [21:38] <jamesr_> heycam, there are open issues on RAF, but afaik nothing about it to be resolved at TPAC
  648. # [21:38] <heycam> jamesr_, yeah I would be reluctant to resolve things here
  649. # [21:38] * jamesr_ finds the list of open issues
  650. # [21:39] <jamesr_> any idea where i could find it?
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  653. # [21:44] <heycam> yeah, hang on
  654. # [21:44] <heycam> http://www.w3.org/2010/webperf/track/products/5
  655. # [21:44] <jamesr_> heycam, i don't think there are any open editorial issues. the open issues are behavior things that we need to hash out w/ vendors and are all basically waiting for feedback
  656. # [21:44] <heycam> yes
  657. # [21:44] <jamesr_> i haven't been able to provide the implementor feedback for chromium on them, been busy doing other things
  658. # [21:44] <heycam> there was one specifically you said you were going to experiement with
  659. # [21:44] <heycam> which I think was the running animations at all in bg tabs
  660. # [21:44] <jamesr_> yes. i have had some talks with jquery guys about that offline
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  662. # [21:44] <heycam> ok
  663. # [21:44] <jamesr_> the last discussion was mostly about jquery behaving badly
  664. # [21:44] <jamesr_> but the current text in the spec matches what MS and we would prefer
  665. # [21:44] <heycam> ok
  666. # [21:44] <jamesr_> gecko had a different implementation, but i think the main motiviation was jquery behavior which has since changed
  667. # [21:44] <jamesr_> so i asked the jquery guys (paul) to experiment a bit and see if they had feedback
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  669. # [21:44] <heycam> yeah, i didn't see explicit message from boris about being ok with it though
  670. # [21:44] <jamesr_> right
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  674. # [21:45] <jamesr_> my hope is that paul can make a definitive statement at some point that jquery would be OK or not OK with this behavior
  675. # [21:45] <jamesr_> and then re-raise the issue on the list
  676. # [21:45] <heycam> ok
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  678. # [21:45] <heycam> wrt the monotonic clock, I think everyone agrees to include it
  679. # [21:45] <heycam> not sure whether it should live in this spec or not
  680. # [21:45] <jamesr_> the other open issue is about the timestamp parameter. due to some implementation issues we haven't been able to experiment with that yet, so i don't have a concrete proposal to raise yet
  681. # [21:45] <jamesr_> right
  682. # [21:45] <jamesr_> we need to have a normative reference in some location TBD
  683. # [21:45] <heycam> yeah
  684. # [21:45] <jamesr_> i think tonyg might have wanted to raise that somewhere within WebPerf
  685. # [21:45] <heycam> when you say about the timestamp parameter, do you just mean whether that is also referring to a monotonic clock?
  686. # [21:45] <jamesr_> which woudl be fine with me
  687. # [21:45] <jamesr_> yes
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  691. # [21:45] <heycam> i think there was the issue of whether the time there represents the next sample time, or the "current" time, or what
  692. # [21:45] <heycam> or whether that matters
  693. # [21:45] <jamesr_> ah yeah
  694. # [21:45] <jamesr_> or whether to provide multiple values
  695. # [21:45] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  696. # [21:45] <jamesr_> i think we want to be consistent with CSS animation APIs
  697. # [21:45] <jamesr_> once those exist
  698. # [21:45] <heycam> ok :)
  699. # [21:45] <jamesr_> but i don't think dino has a concrete proposal there yet
  700. # [21:45] <jamesr_> so it's hard to say
  701. # [21:45] <jamesr_> would rather try to get the script-based and CSS-based animation APIs in sync
  702. # [21:45] <heycam> that would be good
  703. # [21:45] <heycam> not sure if dean has made progress on a proposal
  704. # [21:46] <heycam> what do you think about the comment about worrying about 59Hz screens?
  705. # [21:46] <heycam> in response to the issue about a submillisecond clock
  706. # [21:46] <jamesr_> well 60hz doesn't map to an integer number of milliseconds
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  708. # [21:46] <jamesr_> i'd prefer to use a submillisecond precision clock, which implies not using DOMTimeStamp
  709. # [21:46] <jamesr_> because DOMTimeStamp has to be integer milliseconds for legacy reasons
  710. # [21:51] <heycam> so a Number isn't sufficient resolution?
  711. # [21:51] <jamesr_> number is fine
  712. # [21:51] <heycam> ah ok
  713. # [21:51] <heycam> I didn't see anyone object to having submillisecond resolution
  714. # [21:51] <heycam> so let's just do that
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  716. # [21:51] <heycam> being able to handle 59Hz exactly doesn't seem as important
  717. # [21:51] <jamesr_> yeah that's fine. milliseconds since when is the issue
  718. # [21:51] <jamesr_> since unix epoch has issues when the system clock is adjusted
  719. # [21:51] <jamesr_> which is why i'd prefer to use a timebase like user timing does
  720. # [21:51] <heycam> yes
  721. # [21:51] <heycam> i think document start time or whatever is fine, nobody objected to that in the end, i think
  722. # [21:51] <heycam> and the final issue is the element argument to raf
  723. # [21:51] <heycam> and I think you were just going to add that to the spec
  724. # [21:51] <jamesr_> well no
  725. # [21:51] <heycam> no?
  726. # [21:51] <jamesr_> we didn't agree on behavior
  727. # [21:51] <heycam> maybe i misread
  728. # [21:51] <heycam> ok
  729. # [21:51] <jamesr_> i dunno what to do there. boris and i thought it should do different things :)
  730. # [21:51] <heycam> then should we just leave it off for now?
  731. # [21:51] <jamesr_> yeah
  732. # [21:51] <jamesr_> leave the issue open, have no spec text
  733. # [21:51] <heycam> ok
  734. # [21:51] <jamesr_> which is what the current spec text does
  735. # [21:51] <heycam> yep
  736. # [21:51] <heycam> not a blocking issue then
  737. # [21:51] <jamesr_> has an editorial note referencing the issue but no normative text
  738. # [21:51] <heycam> ok cool. so i'll relay all this to the group.
  739. # [21:51] <heycam> not sure if you wanted to call in :)
  740. # [21:51] <jamesr_> don't think i'll be able to
  741. # [21:51] <heycam> ok
  742. # [21:51] <jamesr_> but i don't think any of the open issues can/should be resolved at the f2f, although if anyone comes up with proposals and posts them to the list i'd be happy to discuss there or make edits as appropriate
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  745. # [21:51] <jamesr_> but mostly i think everything's waiting for some external action
  746. # [21:51] <heycam> yes ok
  747. # [21:52] <heycam> feel free to hang in irc on #webperf though
  748. # [21:52] <jamesr_> in channel - will try to check it
  749. # [21:52] <jamesr_> if you ping here i'll be more likely to see it
  750. # [21:53] <heycam> k
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  795. # [22:56] <heycam> jamesr_, so it seems no minutes were taking during that session :) but I think people were ok with the current state of those issues in general, seems people were in favour of having a separate spec defining the monotonic clock for raf to reference
  796. # [22:56] <heycam> jamesr_, so i made sure no decisions were made, but the room had consensus. jatinder will mail to the list with what we discussed so that you and others can respond.
  797. # [22:57] <jamesr_> heycam, sounds good
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  809. # [23:37] <dglazkov> mutation events are hard.
  810. # [23:37] * dglazkov suggests shopping
  811. # [23:37] <Ms2ger> Or something Component Modelish?
  812. # [23:38] <dglazkov> :D
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  819. # Session Close: Wed Nov 02 00:00:00 2011

The end :)