/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-05 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  113. # [06:04] <wilhelm> ~
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  124. # [07:05] <jgraham> wilhelm: .
  125. # [07:06] <wilhelm> jgraham: I blame the lag.
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  127. # [07:12] <jgraham> So would the Jackson Five if they were around today
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  272. # [16:02] <gsnedders> It says something that when I see a Java plugin used I'm actively surprised, whereas a decade ago it wouldn't have surprised me in the least (though annoyed me while I waited for the JVM to startup…)
  273. # [16:08] * Joins: linclark (~clark@089-101-090180.ntlworld.ie)
  274. # [16:10] * bga_ want jvm in browser by default instead js. If somebody wants js - Rhino
  275. # [16:11] <gsnedders> bga_: I want something where a single company doesn't control the language by virtue of holding patents over it.
  276. # [16:11] <bga_> mm. patents. ok. llvm
  277. # [16:14] <gsnedders> bga_: Too slow, and not designed for non-trusted code-execution.
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  279. # [16:14] <bga_> but monopoly is ok. single version. single mind. better than 3-4 companies implements same stuff i.e. just waste haman resources
  280. # [16:14] <gsnedders> (slow in the compile-time sense, not in generated-code performance)
  281. # [16:15] <gsnedders> bga_: Then why have multiple browser engines at all?
  282. # [16:15] <gsnedders> What incentive is there for performance, etc?
  283. # [16:16] <bga_> lets c++ compler maker fights, not we :)
  284. # [16:16] <bga_> and cpu manufacturers
  285. # [16:17] <gsnedders> But that doesn't really affect the performance of canvas that much.
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  287. # [16:19] <bga_> but ok. monopoly is ideal. you want stimul to make product better. i see MS make Windows better w/o pressure of concurents. thay just cares about users
  288. # [16:19] <bga_> oracle too
  289. # [16:20] <bga_> that ill called perfectionism
  290. # [16:20] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  291. # [16:20] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  292. # [16:21] <gsnedders> bga_: MS don't make Windows better for that reason, MS continue to develop Windows because licensing is tied to specific Windows versions.
  293. # [16:21] <gsnedders> To continue to sell site-licenses, they have to invalidate the old licenses.
  294. # [16:22] <gsnedders> The revenue they get from per-unit OEM sales is comparitively minute.
  295. # [16:23] <gsnedders> bga_: A good monopoly example where you have no financial incentive to develop it further is IE/Win, and the abandonment of its development a decade ago. It brings in no revenue to MS, so it's purely a cost-sink.
  296. # [16:25] <bga_> gsnedders for example we have Flash. wa have canvas. Flash api much better and faster than canvas because Adobe is monopoly. single version. but 3 companies enchange canvas speed triple slower. And after 5+ years canvas reach level of flash
  297. # [16:25] * Quits: linclark (~clark@089-101-090180.ntlworld.ie) (Quit: linclark)
  298. # [16:26] <gsnedders> bga_: It's not clear simply having more resources working on a single engine would have addressed that problem any quicker.
  299. # [16:26] <bga_> gsnedders because IE6 was ideal. 3d, vector graphic, FFI(activex), sound, video, smil, etc
  300. # [16:27] <gsnedders> bga_: The IE team didn't, and were fully intending on fixing bugs in the near future after IE6.
  301. # [16:28] <gsnedders> They were intending on fixing places where hasLayout became black-box observable, expecting to continue on the same fairly quick release-cycle IE had had at that point.
  302. # [16:28] <gsnedders> (Fairly quick at least compared with IE today)
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  323. # [18:13] <annevk> Mike[tm]: I just filed a bug on appcache and it did not go to public-html automatically but instead was filed under other drafts...
  324. # [18:13] <annevk> Mike[tm]: seems wrong
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  336. # [18:57] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  337. # [18:58] <heycam> annevk, according to CSSOM, should document.styleSheets include items for <link rel="stylesheet alternate"> even if they don't have a title=""?
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  339. # [19:01] <annevk> probably should not include those
  340. # [19:01] <annevk> I think that might not get past the "create a style sheet" steps
  341. # [19:01] <annevk> or should not, anyway, because it's useless
  342. # [19:03] <heycam> annevk, where is "create a style sheet" actually invoked?
  343. # [19:04] <heycam> annevk, for link elements that is? I can see there's a section for <?xml-ss?> and Link headers...
  344. # [19:04] <annevk> in HTML I think
  345. # [19:05] <annevk> though I'm not sure if Hixie is doing that properly
  346. # [19:05] <heycam> mm
  347. # [19:06] <heycam> an IE demo fails in Firefox because it doesn't expose all the title-less alternate stylesheet <link>s in document.styleSheets, so I wanted to point to some spec justification for that
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  349. # [19:07] <annevk> yeah I heard about that the other day
  350. # [19:08] <annevk> style sheet loading, creating of StyleSheet objects, etc. is all very sketchy :(
  351. # [19:08] <heycam> mm
  352. # [19:08] <heycam> :)
  353. # [19:10] <annevk> are you eating something?
  354. # [19:10] <annevk> mm
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  356. # [19:13] <heycam> annevk, no, just sleepy after flight so I have a limited set of irc responses to use :)
  357. # [19:14] <annevk> mm
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  364. # [19:37] <kennyluck> Is it a known issue that validator.nu throws more "parse error" than it should be for character references?
  365. # [19:42] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  368. # [19:49] <annevk> kennyluck: you can check its bugs no?
  369. # [19:51] <kennyluck> annevk, it will be easier if someone says "yes" to my question and then I'll skip this. ;)
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  371. # [19:52] <annevk> I don't know the answer :)
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  373. # [19:53] <annevk> ew http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/StringEncoding
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  378. # [19:55] <zewt> only particularly "ew" thing is "detectEncoding", which is being dropped
  379. # [19:56] <zewt> rest is rough but straightforward
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  393. # [20:41] <annevk> other feedback:
  394. # [20:41] <annevk> appcache does not mean "works offline"
  395. # [20:41] <annevk> even if it did, users don't get it
  396. # [20:42] <annevk> they search google for URLs so a) they can't find the apps when offline and b) they don't know they work offline
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  398. # [20:42] <zewt> then why is it in a section titled "offline web applications"? heh
  399. # [20:42] <annevk> ironyfreezone
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  401. # [20:44] <Philip`> Is it more like "works when the internet connection temporarily drops because you're going through a tunnel but you don't need to notice"?
  402. # [20:46] <annevk> the thing you want is e.g. angry birds offline
  403. # [20:46] <annevk> but users won't remember that URL
  404. # [20:46] <Philip`> Sounds like we need an offline Google
  405. # [20:47] <Philip`> Shouldn't be too bad if it just searches through every page you've already visited
  406. # [20:47] <zewt> since when do users remember any URLs, that's not the user's job
  407. # [20:51] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5e04326b.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  408. # [20:52] <annevk> I guess you need to get to the point where the application is "installed" so you can launch it from where you launch other apps
  409. # [20:53] <zewt> chrome can do that (bookmark webpages to the start menu like an app), but it's really obscure
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  413. # [20:59] <zewt> "create application shortcuts"
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  442. # [22:48] <annevk> http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-pieces is pretty awesome
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  448. # [23:17] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/1358.html
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  451. # [23:25] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-attributes
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  461. # Session Close: Sun Nov 06 00:00:00 2011

The end :)